Ron;

Good Morning:

This has been a week for the books to say the least. President Obama working with Sen. McConnell announce a Tax Cut Deal that has both parties in a fit. The left is mad that President Obama gave the right too much of a compromise and did not stick to the principles that our President ran on. Namely no tax cuts for the richest 2%. The right do not like it because it extends the Unemployment Insurance for 13 months (does not include the 99ers) and gives some good tax breaks for the middle class. And a bunch of other side shows that we have all been discussing here this week. I am not going to rehash them here, you can all read them.

The republican “Obstructionist” party makes good on its hostage (or should we say -extortion) demands that all 42 republican Senators sign on to, namely not to do a dam# thing to move this country forward unless they get the tax cuts for the richest 2%, period.

The republicans block the 9/11 First Responders Bill that would provide much needed health care to these brave people. The reason, the 7.4 Billion dollars was too expensive (unfunded) but to spend 70 Billion Dollars per year to provide tax cuts for the richest 2% (also unfunded) is A-OK. What a bunch of obstructing hypocrites.

The republicans also block the National Defense Authorization Act (which includes DADT) which had a 57 Yes vote to a 40 No vote in the Senate.

People, there is no majority rule in the Senate as some of the posters this week have been claiming. That is a lie. 57 yes to 40 no is a big majority but it gets defeated by the minority because we now need a supermajority to pass anything in the Senate and that requires 60 votes, period. Nothing less will do anymore.

The House has announced that it will not bring this Tax Cut Deal to the floor for a vote unless substantial changes are made. Many of the democratic congressmen all day yesterday were expressing their disdain for being held hostage by the right and are finally speaking out against the political thugs that are trying to destroy this country with their bulling and fear tactics. Where the he!! Were these people 6 months ago?? This should never have gotten this far as I feel the Tax Cut Issue should have been addressed before the election cycle, NOT after as we have done.

Moving forward is going to be interesting. The Republican Party is NOT listening to the American People as they continue to block legislation that has a majority of the American people favoring. The ONLY people they are listening to is Wall Street, Big Business and the millionaires/billionaires that have bought and paid for them. 2011 is going to be a year of total gridlock, period. The right will not pass any legislation that has President Obama’s name on it. They will continue to try and re-write the constitution to create a society based on class, and a bevy of other self serving agendas that will continue to erode the Middle Class and the very fabric of our Political System. As they see it, this is their path to the White House in 2012 and it will happen unless we stop it.

Ron Indiana

Republican Death Panels, Hatred, and Constitutional Revision

Ron I appericate your outstanding succinct account of the Republican/Tea bagger hate and revisionist historical "Master Plan" to continue to make America a serfdom.

The Republican/Tea baggers are exceptional in their disdain for people unlike them. That'd be rich and reckless.

START - WHY?

The treaty contains a direct limitation on US missile-defense system deployments. Why would we limit our ability to defend ourselves from nuclear attack, Ron? As Nancy would say "what about our children"? Why would we limit our ability to protect our friends?

Forget about about warheads and lauch vehicles, which helps Russia - doesn't help us. Forget about verification which is weaker. Forget about Russia's 10-1 advantage in tactical nuclear weapons which is the big problem.

Why limit our ability to protect ourselves? How is this not insane? Why the lame smuck rush?

Please answer Ron.

Or will you remain silent and in effect suggest your post wasn't actually about country first - it was about Obama looking competent on one thing.

Bev;

How true. Yesterday that despicable governor of AZ made the statement that lung, kidney, heart transplants are covered by insurance. Tell that to those that were approved that are now not approved and waiting to die. What a low life of a person. Now they are lying about life and death.

This is what happens when you can say or do anything you want with no regards for any responsibility for those actions. People in AZ are going to die because their governor has denied them much needed Health Care. This is not the American way, this is the very same thing you would expect from a class based society where the master group gets the lung, heart or kidney transplant and the rest do not. The middle class has now become expendable like a piece of furniture.

bob-1805084

START - WHY? The treaty contains a direct limitation on US missile-defense system deployments. Why would we limit our ability to defend ourselves from nuclear attack, Ron?

The US already has enough nuclear weapons to destroy all life on Earth several times over. How many times should the US be able to wipe out the human race in order for us to be "safe" from nuclear attack? How many times do we, as Winston Churchill said, have to make the rubble bounce?

Ron, as usual, you are on PAR!

I was yelling at the radio yesterday while Senator Lamar Alexander (R) TN continued to REDEFINE the word Tax Hike on NPR. When an item is discounted by a retailer and that discount expires. It isn't called a PRICE Hike! The sale on TAXES (that were supposed to stimulate the economy and create jobs for 10 years AND DIDN'T) ends on January 1st - by the DESIGN of your own FRIGGIN' party,...well that isn't a TAX HIKE!

AND,...the proposed EXTENSION of the Sale on Taxes is a DEFICIT killing, unpaid for extravagance,...so how do you justify that Mr. Alexander? Oh, that's right, to coin your hero, "Deficits don't matter" (as long as they are for the stuff I want, screw everyone else). I think this is the perfect metaphor for the partisanship bickering. The Republicans want to hold 2,000,000 Americans hostage for 40 Billion dollar in Unemployment Benefits - while amassing 400 Billion dollars in additional debt for their cronies. Debt that has been RECENTLY shown to NOT improve the economy. Talk about smoke and mirror DELUSIONS - oops, Illussions. The Republican Party sickens me. And why do we hear NOTHING but crickets from the Tea Party DEFICIT hawks? Could it be that DEFICITS don't really matter to them either? Anything to win POWER?

This probably won't shock anyone,...but me thinks the Tea Partiers are as fake as their outrage over Democratic majorities.

Ron...

I agree with Ozzy here. The WBC are a despicable group of people who pervert Christianity to suit their agenda. However, they are a very small group of hate filled people who DO NOT represent the vast majority of the Christian world.

As for them picketing Elizabeth Edwards funeral...between this and picketing the funerals of our brave men and women killed in the line of duty, they are a disgusting group of human beings.

Hate-filled Christians:

Why would you put that line out there like that?

Everyone knows that the Westboro Wackos are despicable, loathsome, worthless examples of walking, hate-spewing human excrement.

Why would you marginalize Christians this way - hatred for the Christians on the right?

Wow, Ron and USN you are ON FIRE to start the morning. Right on target with every word.

I'd like to add that the Westboro Baptist Church is a particular scourge here in the central US as obviously it's all easy travel distance from Kansas. They are nearly the most extreme form of hatred in the Christian yard.

It's a big yard, however, and a different corner is reserved for people who wish to impose their personal view of how folks should live on everyone. After a unanimous decision by a Republican-majority Supreme Court legalized gay marriage here an out of state group launched a campaign that succeeded in turning out 3 of 74 judges around the state. Their Iowa figurehead Bob VanderPlaats has said they plan to spend big money again in 2012 and as long as necessary until all judges are of the correct Christian Conservative persuasion. He's also demanded the resignation of 6 other members of the Iowa Supreme Court.

This is a big, coordinated effort and don't be mistaken--the Fundamentalist Christian block is determined to reshape our entire society as they believe God requires;

Branstad also complained Monday about domination of Democrats on the State Judicial Nominating Commission. It's also true that past commissions were larded with Republicans under Republican governors. Branstad will not have an opportunity to shape the commission until next April when two of seven gubernatorial appointees' terms expire. Even then, he should not pick replacements with politics in mind: The constitutional amendment creating Iowa's judicial selection process says explicitly that members shall be chosen "without reference to political affiliation." The best solution is for the commission to do its work as openly as possible so Iowans can judge for themselves whether applicants are selected based on politics or merit.

As if on cue, Indiana attorney Jim Bopp has filed suit in Iowa, challenging their nominating commission. An AP story reports:

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) - A lawsuit filed by a conservative activist aims to change the makeup of the panel that will recommend finalists to replace three Iowa Supreme Court justices ousted after legalizing gay marriage.

The lawsuit, filed by conservative Indiana laywer James Bopp, Jr. on behalf of 4 Iowans, asks a federal judge to stop 7 of 15 members of the judicial nominating commission from participating in the selection process.

ILB readers may recall a number of stories earlier this year under the heading "Lawsuit seeks to change how Kansas Supreme Court judges are appointed," culminating in this one from Nov. 4, 2010 reporting that a federal judge had tossed out the suit. A similar suit in Alaska also failed. Both were filed by Mr. Bopp.

Branstad also complained Monday about domination of Democrats on the State Judicial Nominating Commission. It's also true that past commissions were larded with Republicans under Republican governors. Branstad will not have an opportunity to shape the commission until next April when two of seven gubernatorial appointees' terms expire. Even then, he should not pick replacements with politics in mind: The constitutional amendment creating Iowa's judicial selection process says explicitly that members shall be chosen "without reference to political affiliation." The best solution is for the commission to do its work as openly as possible so Iowans can judge for themselves whether applicants are selected based on politics or merit.

As if on cue, Indiana attorney Jim Bopp has filed suit in Iowa, challenging their nominating commission. An AP story reports:

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) - A lawsuit filed by a conservative activist aims to change the makeup of the panel that will recommend finalists to replace three Iowa Supreme Court justices ousted after legalizing gay marriage.

The lawsuit, filed by conservative Indiana laywer James Bopp, Jr. on behalf of 4 Iowans, asks a federal judge to stop 7 of 15 members of the judicial nominating commission from participating in the selection process.

ILB readers may recall a number of stories earlier this year under the heading "Lawsuit seeks to change how Kansas Supreme Court judges are appointed," culminating in this one from Nov. 4, 2010 reporting that a federal judge had tossed out the suit. A similar suit in Alaska also failed. Both were filed by Mr. Bopp.

http://www.indianalawblog.com/

Excellent post, Ron. It is frustrating to watch and hear the pettiness of republican politicians. As President Obama has said often, the GOP's idea of helping people is "you're on your own".

US Navy. Great post and I agree.

Bob-18.... So, former President Ronald Reagan and republican and democratic presidents after him were all wrong to negotiate a decrease in nuclear weapons? Get this straight--even with the reduction of nuclear weapons, the US will still have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world many times over. Your comment is just blathering foolishness because you do not like President Obama.

As for the so-called Christians of the Westboro Baptist Church, intolerance and hate is a sin according to my religion.

Clara:

I was yelling at the radio yesterday while Senator Lamar Alexander (R) TN continued to REDEFINE the word Tax Hike on NPR. When an item is discounted by a retailer and that discount expires. It isn't called a PRICE Hike! The sale on TAXES (that were supposed to stimulate the economy and create jobs for 10 years AND DIDN'T) ends on January 1st - by the DESIGN of your own FRIGGIN' party,...well that isn't a TAX HIKE!

The Republicans have clearly read George Orwell's "1984". War is peace, freedom is slavery, and Oceania has always been at war with East Asia. I think they've also read his "Animal Farm". All of the animals on the farm are equal, but some are "more equal than others."

Bob-18 et al,

Let me take a stab at responding. First of all, the Cold War is over. The Russians are no longer our enemies. Secondly, Radical Islam is a side-show and is no real threat to the United States despite the fact the GOP sees them as their new "boogey man" for frightening children and energizing their base.

The next war will be fought in cyber-space before any ground troops or missiles are deployed. Our opponents will be the Chinese/African alliance and their "First Strike" will be to hack our defense systems, our communications systems and our power grid. With no Satellite surveilance, no computer targeting and perhaps no communications or power we will be helpless.

The Chinese are outstripping the US and Western Europe in education and technology. They are LONG RANGE planners. We're focused on the election in two years and whether Sarah Palin will run.

I guarantee you there are no such discussions going on in Beijing. That's the strength of Totalitarianism. Political stability for the long haul.

We need to be strengthening our alliances with Russian and Europe. We need to reach out to South America and the rest of Asia. That is the only strategy that will save us from humiliating defeat in the coming cyber-war.

If you don't believe me just look at the Wikileaks counter-attack. Uncoordinated, amateur hackers brought down servers and denied service to millions. Just think what could be accomplished with a coordinated and government supported cyber attack by Government sponsored "hackers".

START is the first step in strengthening our position in the world AND showing the Chinese that we have the allies to thwart their ambitions.

Think about it Bob. Either we ally ourselves with Russian and Western Europe or we really need to start learning to speak and read Mandarin Chinese.

Oh, and radical Islam. Nothing but a few hot-heads in third-world countries grabbing headlines. Since they are a medieval religion tied to countries with economies tied to the middle ages their "conquest" of the West will take a century or more. The Chinese are less than a decade away from completely surpassing us in technology and strategic alliances.

Time to wake up and smell the egg rolls Bob. It's not the 1950's anymore.

Clara;

It is all about SPIN. The right knows that the tax cuts by Bush had an expiration date that they built into the program. We even saw this week republicans claiming how proud they were in creating this trap. Their words not mine. But you notice that none of them are defending the position that they wanted toreduce the deficit but push an agenda that creates a record busting deficit. Tax Cuts cost too much money unless they are for the richest 2%

Bachman in speaking with Megan Kelly on FOX made the statement that the Payroll Tax Cut will increase thee deficit. But when asked about the Bush Tax Cuts she claimed they had no effect on the deficit.

Lamar Alexander went one step further on Greta Van Sustern when he said that the payroll tax was BOTH a republican and democrat idea, the problem - it costs money. Well hello, the Bush Tax Cuts were NOT FREE, they did not pay for themselves.

Good old Tom Colburn with Laura Ingraham called this government spending also ignoring the Bush Tax Cuts. For the last 6 months the republican/tea party has been saying that the tax cuts do not increase the deficit, UNLESS they are for the Middle Class. Then they do. Hypocrites all.

I for one hope the spine the democrats found yesterday holds through the end of the year. Let the republicans pass the tax deal, no one is going to lose their tax cuts - republicans can make it retroactive so that the top 2% and everyone else doesnt notice any difference, the only issue is the unemployment extensions.

I dont see why democrats cant simply say "Republicans, ball is in your court - Jan 2nd, you can pass the tax deal, today, we most vote on unemployment benefits - since there's no reason to hold it hostage anymore"

Im tired of the political games, and although what ive said above appears to be another game, its not...its reality, republicans will have a majority in the house on jan 2nd, they can push through whatever they want, and the blue dogs in the senate will help it pass - and the republicans wont get the benefit of calling this "Obama's Tax Cuts" so that they can campaign on what a crappy deal it was in 2012.

Democrats have no control anymore, why should they pass something when they've been voted out of office?

If republicans dont want to extend unemployment benefits, fine...but at least the voters will know WHO is the one not wanting to extend them.

And furthermore, let the republicans duke it out with the Tea Baggers over cutting taxes and cutting the deficit...should be a pretty fight!

Tea Party conservatives have characterized HCR as big government control of the health care that will take decisions about care away from the patient due to the rationing of expensive treatments in a cost benefit analysis due to limited money.

How is the Arizona case not exactly an example of this - government making the decision based on cost?

Frank and Bob:

I actually agree with you. This group of "Baptists" are despicable, loathsome, worthless....

You legitimately ask why I would use the term Hate-filled Christians. I guess because if you asked them if they are Christian, they would say they are. I haven't heard that the Baptist Church organization has shunned as yet. So, until they are ostracised by the Baptist, I guess the term fits.

Bob 180....

Skip Nicholson gave a far better answer than I. Thank you Skip for your comments.

I would add that we only have two choices; to return to the arms race, or follow the notion of Ronald Reagan and reduce nuclear arms. Reagan was right on this one.

Ron,

OK - My bad.

For some reason, although I rarely agree with your posts, I respected your comments and thought you were better than that, especially when given a chance to reflect.

Disappointing.

Unemployment benefits are not being extended beyond 99 weeks. The extension will not be for people who have already exhausted their allowable benefits. BB you pepper facts into illusions like RL.

Thanks Ron, I'm glad I could help.

I am really very concerned about this. While we make our petty arguments about the inner workings of our political structure the Chinese are stealing a march on us.

We really need to come together as a nation and look to the future 10-20-50 years from now. All this bickering about START and HCR and the rest is not going to amount to anything if we lose the next war to the Chinese.

It starts by coming together, not pulling apart. We need the American family to get involved in the education of their children again. The Asian culture/family structure puts enormous pressure on their children to succeed in school and they monitor their progress very closely. We used to be that way. But we've somehow gotten too busy to be involved with our children.

I don't think the education system is broke so much as the family mechanism is broken and we need to take a look at that.

Ok, enough preaching. You all know where I stand. I stand beside the President, I think he's doing a good job. You are entitled to disagree with me as is your right. But we need to agree to disagree and come together as a people and do something about educating our kids or we are doomed.

It won't matter 20 years from now if our kids are still paying for the Stimulus if they are paying for it in chinese coins.

John B. Terrific post. I've been following this effort just as you and VanderPlatts is waging war on people's rights and on our Supreme Court and our nonpartisan system of judicial selection. The GOP in Iowa is becoming increasingly extreme right.

Branstad tried to bully Senate Majority Leader Michael Gronstal to put the gay marriage issue on the ballot by stating "just because you're a leader in the Legislature doesn't mean you're a dictator where you have the right to make a unilateral decision, I think, on an issue of this importance and magnitude." When Gronstal was asked about the comment he said "Dictators are people who take away other people's rights (referring to the rights of gays). I'm not going down that road." Well done, Mike Gronstal.

Salt,

Where did I say they were extending them past 99 weeks. I did say that 99 weeks is more than enough time to find a job. But they are spending money to extend benefits. Is that not the compromise? Heck, don't extend the tax cuts, I will be affected, but I can handle that, but if we don't pass the tax extensions, then we don't pass the unemployment extensions. Still fine by me. But don't whine about one, and expect the other. There are no peppered facts Salt, just personal honesty.

it is open mike friday on the RL show. Robo callers need to call 1-800-282-2882 and repeately support the president.

To US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

moving forward is going to be interseting. the democratic party is NOT listening to the american people as they continue to try to ram legislation down the thoats of the majority of the american people who are against it. the ONLY people they are listening to is wall atreet, big business and the millionaires/billionaires that have bought and paid for them. the left will not pass any legislation that has a republican name on it. they will continue to try and re-write the constitution to create a society based on socialism, and a bevy of other self serving agendas that will continue to erode the middle class and the very fabric of our political system. as they see it, this is their path to the white house in 2012 and it will happen unless we stop it.

the republicans holding up the tax cut to get their way is hostage taking but the democartes holding it up to get their way is not…..the polls showing that the majority of americans were against the health care reform and for the arizona immigration law did not matter to the progressives but the polls showing that the majority of americans are for letting tax cuts expire for the wealthy holds GREAT importance…this is known as hypocrisy to the mass majority of americans

Bob, why isnt Hate-Filled Christians the most ACCURATE term when discussing The Westboro Baptist Church people?

Can you tell what would be a more accurate description?

Im sorry if including the reality that these folks pretend to represent christianity offends you, but reality is what it is...and leaving off that really key part of WHO THEY ARE so that other christians dont feel perscuted via their silence, makes little sense.

If you, as a christian, are offended and disgusted by the actions of OTHER CHRISTIANS...by all means, speak up and do something...but stop pretending like we shouldnt call them what they call themselves.

Are you saying they arent REALLY christians based on their actions?

Well, then id have to conclude 90% of americans arent really christians (and that leaves the other 10% who already said they werent to begin with).

skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City “Let me take a stab at responding. First of all, the Cold War is over. The Russians are no longer our enemies. Secondly, Radical Islam is a side-show and is no real threat to the United States despite the fact the GOP sees them as their new "boogey man" for frightening children and energizing their base.”

Righ right that is why the democatically appointed head of homeland secutiry, janet napolitano ,has installed scanners and extensive pat downs at our airports and is scheduled to implement them in all forms of mass transportation and why she has implemented a program with walmart to have monitors at locations around the stores with her explainging to americans why they must be ever viligant and if they see something suspious they must report it cause terroison does not really exist it is all a “boogey man” made up by the gop

Salt,

Does that mean you are a RL fan? Seems you know the phone number by heart:)

I have to say that Ron and USN are two that hit the ball out of the park. Great job. Thanks

Houston!

Huh? We have to wipe the world out to be safe from nuclear attack? Not very nice.

How about if someone launches one at us - we shoot it down, instead of waiting for it to hit and then wiping the world out.

skip,

Russia no longer an enemy - why are they so concerned and want to limit our missile-defense? Our friends are for missile defense.

Radical Islam is a side show? The absurdity of that statement should be discussion ender.

The Chinese are outstripping us in education and technology and MOST WORRISOME - MILITARY.

China's Second Artillery Corps is the strategic-rocket branch. They have relied on a small force of liquid-fueled, silo-based ICBMs with 3-5 megaton warheads such as the CSS-3 and CSS-4. Recent years they have developed solid-fuel mobile launchers such as the DF-31A which increase survivability.

The Pentagon has warned this year that China has the most active land-based ballistic and cruise missile program in the world. Their MIRV wil double in the next 15 years. They are working on maneuverable MIRVs, decoys, chaff, jamming and thermal shielding.

China has a new clas of strategic submarine the Type 094 that carry 12 JL-2 missiles with a range of 4,000 miles that are replacing the Type 092. They are in the final stages of of another SSBN the Type 096 which will carry 24 intercontinental-range missiles.

On and On. 3,000 mile tunnel system "The Great Underground Wall of China" nuclear complex.

You want to wake up and smell the egg rolls? Whether it is Russia, or China, or Iran, or N. Korea or....

WHY IS OBAMA LIMITING OUR ABILITY TO PROTECT OURSELVES?

And why are we rushing and why can not one of you sensibly answer this question, yet defend START?

BTW skip - Thanks for providing one more point for my argument.

What's up with whomever keeps collapsing Beverly's comments? I think Newsvine should look up the people who are flagging her and kick them off for abusing this forum. Collapsing comments should be done to those that are truly offensive, not to those you just don't agree with.

bob-1805084 wrote: "START - WHY? The treaty contains a direct limitation on US missile-defense system deployments. Why would we limit our ability to defend ourselves from nuclear attack, Ron?"

Because 30,000 nuclear weapons are not a greater deterrent than 20,000. Heck, if a country has even 1000 nuclear weapons, and that isn't enough to deter you from attacking them, nothing will.

Salt Grass

"it is open mike friday on the RL show. Robo callers need to call 1-800-282-2882 and repeately support the president."

A great idea, Salt, but it won't work because the chicken-s**t Rush won't let his 'screener' let those calls through.

Speaking of Chicken 'stuff'- can our moderator PLEASE remove the 'collapse' feature of the 'vine?

I don't care if your contributors say Obama is the greatest, or the worst, or something in between- I want to know what they have to say without having to uncollapse them. We are all adults here. We also support the 1st ammendment. If it's not filthy or obscene, let it run.

A final thoght for right now: The deal Obama has reached must not be ALL bad. Hannity had Mike Pence and some other guy on last night, and the are already whining and crying about what a bad deal it is. It's "TEMPORARY', for starters......

BigBear - You do know that no one gets more than 99 weeks of unemployment don't you? The extension would apply to those in lower tiers, some of whom have been eligible for the standard 26 weeks.

US Navy - The START treaty has been sitting around since April. Since the document is less than 200 pages, I would have expected these bozos to have read it months ago. Also, if the treaty is so bad, why are former heads of state, defense administration officials, etc. in support of it? Let me know since I've only read the 17 page introduction to the treaty so far (in about 5 minutes).

Wow! Skip Nick is dead on. The invention of the musket destroyed the knight, the invention of the submarine eliminated the threat of the battleship and the invention of the Atomic bomb rendered entire army's useless. If computers control most of the defense systems against ballastic missles, isn't the logical frontier cyber space? Phenominal time we live in. Never thought I live to see such evolution in human kind. I can't write code, I can't even get internet explorer to prevent pop ups half the time but a kid in the Hague can shut down a premiere financial website like he's building Lego and we're worried about if we have enough bombs to arm? How do you prevent a professional government hackers (e.g. China) from hacking U.S. defense systems?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/04/AR2010120403347.html

Do we wheel the rockets outside and light them manually or is some "secure" government computer going to do it for us? while we're playing war games in South Korea, China is playing real war games with Google and Way ahead of you Skip...think 21st century warfare. Missle defense it the new chainmail armor.

Jessica, I think the objection comes with those who feel we can't call radical Muslim extremists terrorists anymore because it might offend the terrorists and we want to be friends with them because that will make them stop hating us, yet it's completely acceptable to disparage Christians in any manor one chooses because, after all, they're just Christians. Yes, the WBC minions call themselves Christians but I don't think we need to encourage them. Frankly, I think domestic terrorists is a better way to describe them because that's a hell of a lot closer to reality.

Bob,

How proficient are you in Mandarin. I think you are going to need it.

I do not deny that the threat of terrorism via radical islam is something that much be taken seriously. But they are never going to "take over America". At least not for a hundred years or so. The Saudis and other Sunni-based Islamic cultures rely on us as their hired guns. It is the third world wanna-be's that are spawning the terrorists. But that's all they are, TERRORISTS. Yes a threat to life and limb but NOT to the nation. Their threat has been greatly overblown by the news media.

START guarantees MUTUAL assurance of compliance. It's the Reagan doctrine. Verify.

We've got enough missiles and hi-tech targeting to blow every sign of life from this planet several times over. We've got an effective missile defense.

But that's not going to help us in the next war if the enemy is able to take down those defenses via computer hackers or viruses. I repeat, since you obviously missed my point, the next war will be fought and won in cyber-space. The Chinese are oustripping us and our Western allies in education and will soon outstrip us in technology. It has already been reported that the Chinese have been recruiting "hackers" into their government.

Think about it Bob. Or go grab yourself a book on Mandarin.

@Ron, I sit here scratching my head at the reaction to Jan Brewer's policy in AZ while in the same breath the left is touting HCR as the greatest thing ever. How do you not see that this is EXACTLY the result we are going to see with HCR? First, we've "funded" HCR by pushing Medicaid costs back to the states. Next we've funded it by reducing funding for Medicare. How do you think less money into programs that are already stretched thin isn't going to result in even more instances of treatment being denied because of the expense? When states are already facing massive budget shortfalls, tough decisions get made. Does it suck, you bet your bippy it does, but it is exactly what many on the right have been saying all along- the funding source is not unlimited. We can't keep expanding programs without funding them. The left refuses to face this reality- we cannot continue to pass every program that makes us feel good without regard to their cost or where the funding comes from.

Big B

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

bmilleroh,

Where did I say they were extending them past 99 weeks. I did say that 99 weeks is more than enough time to find a job. But they are spending money to extend benefits. Is that not the compromise? Heck, don't extend the tax cuts, I will be affected, but I can handle that, but if we don't pass the tax extensions, then we don't pass the unemployment extensions. Still fine by me. But don't whine about one, and expect the other.

Pretty much know that, have said it twice now. I am pretty sure that they want to extend the money for another 13 months to pay for those on unemployment. Still 99 weeks is more than enough time to find a job. That would be 5 weeks less than 2 years. Read post 1.24.

I am more worried about those lefties crying that someone got a tax extension. Because they want to extend unemployment, but not taxes. Well that is not compromise. The president actually came up with a compromise and WOW the democrats whine about it.

Salt,

No Truer words spoken.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

Ron & Disabled Navy Vet-Retired,

I agree with your respective posts for the most part, however I feel there are a few important details that you left you while placing all the blame on the Republicans. (1) You claim that the Republicans are ignoring the will of the people while completely ignoring the fact that the Democrats did that exact same thing with Obamacare, simply because they had the "super majority" control necessary to do it. (2) They committed outright THEFT from the already cash strapped Medicare system by stealing 1/2 trillion dollars to fund Obamacare. (3) They lied and intentionally hid,from the American pubic, the true cost of Obamacare, which many are beginning to see in the increase of their premiums. Did Obama and Congress really believe the insurance companies were going to simply absorbthe increased cost of doing business caused by the inability to deny coverage to people with existing conditions or drop people who start costing them too much money. Now don't get me wrong! I think these are some of the better parts of Obamacare, it is just that I feel that Congress should have worded the bill so that it cost more to those with the existing conditions and or higher medical bills, especially if they were foreseeable and or avoidable (IE smokers, illegal drug users, etc.)

So you see guys the problem is not just the Republicans not listening to the American people or just the Democrats not listening to the American people it is that our Representatives in Washington from Obama to Congress have and are continuing to, FAIL TO LISTEN TO WHAT WE WANT. Obama and the Democratically controlled Congress had nearly 2 years to create a job friendly climate that would encourage private businesses to grow and hire or in some cases rehire people who have lost their jobs. What have they done? Extend unemployment benefits time after time after time. Pump money into the businesses that caused a large part of the economic turn down in the first place while doing nothing to truly help those who lost their jobs and are continuing to lose their homes.

To put it in a nut shell. We don't have a Republican or a Democrat problem we have a Washington Politics Problem. It is this that has caused the various states to take a stand against the Federal Government in order to protect their citizen's rights. The Dream Act is a glaring example of this: All the polls show that the majority of Americans are against giving illegal immigrants (any illegal immigrants) citizenship. Do our Washington Politicians listen? NO! They try to pass it so Obama can sign it into law anyway. While on the surface the Dream Act in and of itself seems harmless (give citizenship to illegal immigrants who are currently in college or willing to serve in our armed forces) it is but a path to what they really want and that is citizenship for all illegal immigrants. In order to see who's best interests our Washington politicians really have at heart one need only see things like this revealed and made public: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40565987/ns/business-going_green/. America first? I think this article clearly shows that Senator Reid is only concerned with keeping his pockets lined and those campaign funds rolling in so he can buy another election in the future and or pad his retirement account.

Suzy:

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I suspect we can agree that there will be rationing of healthcare. And it will come down to our values. Personally, I value giving people the chance to live. Your values may be different and that's OK. The two examples of McCain and Brewer suggest little to no compassion for the welfare of others.

Maybe that is the difference between progressives and conservatives.

Ron Indiana - If Obamacare is anything, it is a sham. Republicans were doing anything they could to stop it from getting passed. The liberal twist on death panels is just that, a twist. There will be government officials that will approve or disapprove medical procedures. Some will die because of budget constraints. A 75 year old man needing a heart transplant could very well be denied because of his age. This is the jest of death panels. Nothing could be simpler to understand. No twist needed.

Have you noticed how insurance rates have gone up across the board? Mine went up substantially. How come you aren't hearing any complaints from the insurance companies? Because insurance companies stand to gain with this new law. The law as it is written requires everyone to carry health insurance or face stiff penalties from the IRS. How does that help America Ron? The insurance won't be low cost or even fair.

Liberals across the nation all held hands in support of this abortion of a law. They were dreaming of "free" healthcare. Since when does this government ever give out "free" stuff? Someone has to pay for it. This is exactly why this liberal enacted, democrat supported, progressive agenda passed.

AARP had Obamagasms when they lobbied for it. They saw the dollar signs $$$ of progressivism and made the money grab. In their feeble minds, they expect billions in return for their Medicare supplimental insurance... which, by the way, has gone up in price. Anyone belonging to AARP must have a screw loose in their heads. I wouldn't join it simply because they are a liberal minded money grabbing organization. They now have some competition and I will support those that have come out against them.

So Ron, tell me, since you brought up Obamacare, how does it benefit the poor in this nation? The government isn't supplying "free" insurance as so many uninformed people were led to believe and proclaimed. Liberals across the nation supported it, for what? Their imaginary free health care seems to have been nothing but a pipe dream... now we are stuck with this 200 lb weight tightly clamped around our necks as we sink to the bottom of the lake.

Do you think everyone regardless of education or work ethic or effort should be paid the same or close to the same?

No. Asked and answered.

That said we can only go so far in the direction of a society that routes all new wealth to the already wealthy and constantly demands that the average worker do more for less. That's what's been happening for the last 30 years and it's weakened our economy to the extent that we're having trouble bouncing back from the most recent recession.

Conservatives like to say there aren't enough wealthy to tax us into revenue sufficiency. There also aren't enough to create sufficient demand to support an entire economy. We've starved the middle class until we don't have enough money to support the government OR the economy. That's the world we live in. That's the failure of Conservative economic policies.

sick:

I don't agree with either side of the aisle using fear tactics to justify clamping down on our freedoms.

Now that the pilots cabins are locked, terrorists won't be able to fly or make the pilots fly the plane into ground targets. That means that commercial aircraft have very little chance of being used in a 9/11 style attack again.

The security searches/devices in place to search passengers at airports BEFORE Nov. of this year, were adequate enough to catch 99.999% of all weapons/bombs that can bring down a plane.

It''s cargo security that is the weak link. They also need to start cross-checking all passengers, the moment they purchase a ticket. If they have to profile(like Israel), and do extra searches on those who have flown from countries that contain our enemies, then they should do so.

The TSA are like Keystone Cops. They need to start hiring only those(and pay them well enough) who have law enforcement and pro security backgrounds. Then they need to train them to read facial expressions and body language.

We live with threats of accidents and injuries in our every day/common lives. You have more chance of being struck by lightning, dying in a car crash, choking to death on your food, or being the victim of a violent/fatal crime, than you do of dying from terrorist attack on a plane leaving from a US commercial airport.

I'm more concerned about the possiblity of WMDs being transported on our soil over our southern border, or through our seaports. A high percentage of all cargo that arrives in the US, doesn't even get searched thouroughly.

Let's start worrying about actual and more likely threats to the American public(like criminals).

We need to start cleaning up all the criminals we have here in the US first. Then we should fund mental health clinics, to get most of the mentally unstable off our streets and help them recover(if possible).

And yes, the majority of the "religious right" and those professing to be "christians"(small case c for those hypocrites), DO NOT follow the exact teachings of Jesus. Once they start pointing fingers, blaming and hating ANYONE( epecially at those who havn't directly harmed them), they can't truly call themselves followers of Jesus and his teachings.

Drive by you are correct, but it we could jam the phone lines so no one gets through.

Big B the way you wrote you initial coment made it seem that the extension was for beyond 99 weeks.

Salt,

Sorry if I miss communicated my thought process. I am somewhat proud that we have some compromise coming out of Washington. People want unemployment extensions, but not willing to give up something in return. Seems crazy to me. Especially the whining part of it. So what, 2% of the taxpayers get to keep more of their money, so do 98% of the taxpayers, well actually 51%, since 47% didn't pay taxes last year. But you see the point. We finally get a compromise that benefits both sides, and the complaining keeps going.

Besides who has time for RL, it is more fun to argue on here, with real people, not pundits:)

Ernie,

You have a grasp on the problem, but others on this board, have to blame someone for the problems. Therefore, it is a right wing conspiracy to destroy this nation. Nothing the more moderate people on here can do, except to continue to seek the truth, try and engage thoughtful solutions, and try to strengthen our society with problem-solving, not personal attacks.

Of course that will get attacked also. But hey it was worth a try:)

bob-1805084

Huh? We have to wipe the world out to be safe from nuclear attack? Not very nice.

It's not very nice of you to change the subject just because you can't explain why we need to add to the deficit by building more weapons so we can destroy the planet a few more times than we already can. The START treaty has no limitations on missile defense (aka Ronnie Raygun's "Star Wars"). Of course, Star Wars is a huge waste of money, too, but that's another issue different from the START issue you're trying to conflate it with.

american lobo you are joking, right: TSA w/only those w/law enforcement backgrounds? Why on earth...?? If i wanted corruption at the airports, thats the first thing i would do...US law enforcement is a farce- corrupt individuals who prey on the weak, thats about it. Look in every paper in every city every day...the worst. I would disown my child if they became a policeman, lol.

Ron, I think we do agree to large extent. I think giving people the best shot at life is a great goal. But what are you willing to give up in order to pay for that? Because that's the crux of the whole issue. Individual wealth is unlimited- we all have potential to earn millions. Government wealth, though, is limited, so we need to decide where our priorities lie and adjust accordingly.

Blame the so-called progressives for not voting. They bought the media narrative of enthusiasm gap and stayed home.

They deserve the government they get. Too bad I have to get it, too.

skip,

Yea, we've got enough missiles to blow up the world. Why should that be our only option? Reagan thought mutual destruction as a defense policy was asinine. Remember "Star Wars" that the left mocked? It was (ICBM) missile defense.

The President of the United States primary responsibility is to protect the nation. Reagan would never compromise our ability to do that. Verify? Yea he said that and this new START weakens the old verification.

Our missile defense is effective? Maybe. But, what is the harm of making it more effective. Why limit it to where it is now? What about the future with the growing threats from all over the world?

Think of it as a bullet proof vest for police officers. They were effective, until pistol rounds got hotter, smaller and used different bullets. What if the threat grows and we need more vests? Can't do it under Obama unless the cop gives up his gun. Offense and defense are interrelated ya know.

Mandarin, egg rolls, radical Islam, terrorism, Saudi/Sunni, media, China, cyber-space, computer hackers, viruses - Nice obfuscations, but has nothing to do with the START treaty Ron was saying needs to be passed and I challenged. Still, no one has sensibly challenged why we should limit our ability to protect ourselves and pass this piece of crap.

You guys aren't very good at this are you.

He was, well, presidential.

Highly questionable.

Obama - No Earmarks:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuR4b2RzxlA&feature=related
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue1I0O5l85E&feature=related
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-VSjfFvEJU&feature=related
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMwpIy_XlU&feature=related

Just wait until the "Tax" legislation finally hits the street and the public is made aware of what Senators Reid and Pelosi, et al, stuck into the bill behind closed doors.

"There will be government officials that will approve or disapprove medical procedures. Some will die because of budget constraints..."

Brianb- would you rather have board members or stockholders approve or disapprove medical procedures? Remember- THEIR bottom line is MORE PROFITS for THEM. And yes, then, when it comes to the bottom line, somewill die because of budget constraints.....

rock:

who would you rather have protecting you and/or working airport security? A person who was trained in law enforcement, advanced security and possibly a military veteran, or someone TSA hired right out of high school with no advanced training.

ANYBODY can be corrupt. I'd stiil rather take my chance with those who have better training and experience, than those who are in entry level positions in the TSA(like many of the employees I've seen working the security points at the airport).

bob,

You are exactly what I'm talking about. I call for us to set our petty bickering aside and come together as a country and all you want to do is argue over the minutae.

Did you not read ANY of the other posts supporting my prophesy?

I feel sorry for you and for my grandchildren. You and they may still be alive when the cyber war breaks out. They will certainly suffer the consequences of your xenophobia and ignorance.

Not very good at this? Well bob, out here on the prairie we have a saying, "The guilty dog always barks first."

Judging from the number of green stars next to my comments and the dirth of support for yours I'd say it's pretty clear which one of us in the more proficient.

But this isn't a contest to see whose leg can get the wettest in some juvenile pissing contest.

This is a clear and present danger, to borrow a phrase from Tom Clancey and the fact that you can't set aside our petty political differences and understand the threat makes the danger all the greater.

Rave on my friend. In the meantime I'd pick up a book on Mandarin if I were you. You've got 10-15 years to brush up on your chinese before the bottom falls out.

John B I disagree with this statement:

Conservatives like to say there aren't enough wealthy to tax us into revenue sufficiency. There also aren't enough to create sufficient demand to support an entire economy. We've starved the middle class until we don't have enough money to support the government OR the economy. That's the world we live in. That's the failure of Conservative economic policies.

The failure of Conservative economic policies lies with the liberal agenda overriding those very policies. You may be referring to sending work off shore, or a myraid of other talking points that liberals always throw at conservatives.

For the past 4 years we've had democrat/liberal/progressive majorities in both the house and senate. For 20 months we've had a president pushing his socialist style agenda down our throats with a very compliant house and senate. Bush was anything but a conservative. There hasn't been a conservative idea passed anywhere for the past 8 years. We are witnessing the results of liberalism at work in our economy and weakened world status.

How you can say that our current economic state is the result of conservatism is beyond the pale. This country hasn't seen real conservatism since Ronald Reagan. He set the pace in his last years for Bill Clinton to ride the wave all the way to 2000. We have had mostly liberal policies enacted with very little conservative influence at all.

BigBear: "47% didn't pay taxes last year"

You are correct BUT..........

Of those 47% that didn't pay income taxes, a large percent were children, non working spouses, elderly, couldn't work due to mental/physical disabilies, and/or didn't make enough $ to pay for the basic cost of living.

You want to start making kids pay taxes on their paper routes and lawn mowing jobs?

Or how about taxing the allowance that their parents give them? would that make you feel any better?

What about those who have high expenses due to family illnesses and medical bills that their insurance won't cover(if they are fortunate to have insurance in the first place)?

It's easy for you to generalize those 47% and ASSume they all earn decent money, yet refuse to pay taxes.

If anything, it's the top 2% earners that pay tax lawyers/accountants to get them out of paying their supposed tax rate(through loopholes and offshore accounts), that are the criminals and are witholding their fair share.

I won't even get into detail on those companies who do business with and make money off American consumers, yet operate offshore to avoid paying income tax.

skip,

Are you really this obtuse?

Ron made a statement about START. I challenged that statement. You tried to defend Ron's statement by arguing your prairie dog prophesy. I said nice obfuscation, but this wasn't about your prairie dog prophesy - got an argument about START or counter to my challenge?

Green Stars? Thanks for the laugh. BTW - How old are you?

The failure of Conservative economic policies lies with the liberal agenda overriding those very policies.

Sorry, not buying it. We've had 30 years of trickle down economics. Thirty years of deregulation. Thirty years of escalating wealth at the top and a stagnating middle class. Six years when Republicans controlled the White House, BOTH houses of Congress, and the Supreme Court. It failed.

The argument that Conservatism only fails because it isn't pure enough is baloney. Anything that needs to live in a terrarium like that is only a theory that has no application in real life.

The way congress is ignoring the citizens of this country and making laws to suit there own views of America

it may very well be time to revolt

RON---------- You folks never learn, same crap that got your fanny handed to you, Nov. 2nd.

Okay truck on, with your help, there may not be an elected dem left in government after 2012.

After a full week of not posting anything to the "First Read" thread and just sitting back reading the comments that are posted here, it has become quite apparent that.....

Each morning Louis J., Ret. Vet, John B., Bev in Chicago, & Feisty Red Head read the liberally slanted article and then proceed to post nothing but comments that support the far left bias that has engulfed our media outlets. They never stray from their hatred and contempt for anything that doesn't agree with their progressive agenda. They bully and demean anyone and anything that dares to conflict with their very narrow view of the world and our problems. They add nothing of real value to a time when debate and compromise are the only path to lasting solutions to this country's economic issues. You cannot have real debate with people who aren't listening....people who just wait to respond in attack mode. (except for Paul, who just wants all of us to join him in the 9/11 conspiracy and the fake filabuster)

Therefore, I have decided to spend my limited time on other, much more productive and respectful threads, where actual debate and discourse are moving in the right directions. To any of you have tired of this onesided, offkilter, and distasteful thread, I invite you to join me and many other mature and thoughtful Americans who truly want to fix this great nation on several other threads. If you are interested you can email me directly and start spending your time where it will be truly useful and productive.

To those of you who continue to spend your time trying to prove to these people that they are narrow minded and way of base....GOOD LUCK!

American Lobo,

Of the 151 million taxpayers in 2009, 47% of them received full refunds or more than their actual tax rate. This is not the poor little paper boy, this is almost 75 million workers who did not pay taxes, but yet used government services.

I have said on here more than once that the problem lies with a tax code that allows for loopholes, deductions, and encourages cheating. All of it could be fixed by reforming the tax code.

3 days ago, I figured out that at 17%-without deductions and loopholes at the minimum tax dollar rate per income group. Income in 2009 would have been about $15 billion dollars more than what we took in. Yet, our government officials want to provide different rates for different wages. That is not a fair and just system, which I thought Liberals were for. But again, that is an ASSumption, which must not be true, the only truth is that most on here hate people who are rich and want them to contribute even more dollars than they already do. Wait till they decide to quit paying and watch the revolution.

BigBear - I'm TIRED of this BS propaganda from the rich that 47% of Americans don't pay taxes.

Did you read Warren Buffett's op-ed piece in the NY Times on November 17?

Or happen to read Buffett's challenge to the Forbes 400 back in 2007? You know, the one where he said he'd give any one of them $1 million for their favorite charity if they could show their effective tax rate was higher than their secretary's???? (To date, not ONE of them has claimed that $1 million.)

No? Too busy listening to Rush and Glenn?

Okay, here's the gist of it in short format:

Tom: You've talked about in your office, for example, you pay a much lower tax rate with all of your wealth than, say, a receptionist does.

Warren: That's exactly right, Tom. And I think the only way to do it is with specifics, and in our office, 15 people cooperated in a survey out of 18. I didn't make anybody do it. And my total taxes paid-- payroll taxes plus income tax-- and the payroll tax is an income tax. It's based on income.

Tom: Yeah.

Warren: Mine came to-- 17.7 percent. That was line 61 I think-- or, no, line 43-- is the percent of taxable income, plus payroll taxes, 17.7 percent. The average for the office was 32.9 percent. There wasn't anybody in the office from the receptionist on that paid as low a tax rate. And I have no tax planning. I don't have an accountant. I don't have tax shelters. I just follow what the U.S. Congress tells me to do.

Tom: Why do you think that there's not more outrage about that?

Warren: I don't think people understand it. For one thing, you'll see a lot of surveys that say the rich, the top one percent pay this much of the income tax. Now I think what people don't realize is that almost one third of the entire budget comes from payroll taxes. And payroll taxes on income, just like income taxes are taxes on income.

And the payroll tax is over $800 billion out of two and a trillion, or something like that. And people don't understand-- that the rich pay practically no payroll tax. I mean, I paid payroll tax last year on $90 odd thousand, whatever the number is. I paid income tax on $66 million. But my double income tax, one of 'em quits at $90,000. And the remaining $66 million does not get taxed with payroll tax. So, the person who makes $60,000 in our office gets taxed in full on the payroll tax, and taxed in full on the income tax. And all the statistics you read, particularly the one don't like taxes, well now, they totally ignore the payroll tax. And it's huge now.

You holier-than-thou's don't pay pay Social Security or Medicare taxes on ANY of your unearned income. You don't pay them on earned income over $106,800. You pay a 15% tax rate on your dividends and capital gains. You get all kinds of deductions that us working stiffs can't take off our taxes.

But you don't want to talk about that, now, do you??? Or the fact that over 60% of American corporations pay NO TAX, either. Why do people buy this BS?? Talk about class warfare.

The top tax bracket earners were taxed at a much higher rate 25-65 years ago. Why are people(the rich) complaining that they don't think those who are way above being well off, should pay more than those who aren't?

From 1950-1963, the federal tax rate on all taxable income over $400,000, was OVER 90%. From 2003-2008, the federal tax rate on all taxable income over $297,000-$357,000(it fluctuated by year), was 35%.

It's obvious that our economy was booming the most and at its best, when the rich(and large corporations) in the top brackets were paying over double the amount of taxes that they currently pay. If it was done before with great success(and the rich still made lots of $$ and their businesses were hiring), then it would probably work again.

How about taxing all income over $500,000 at a 45%, instead of 35%.

And before anyone starts b*tching about how it's "un-American", remember that the US used to tax all income over $106,000-$400,000(depending on the year) at between 50% and 94%(also depending on the year) between 1932 and 1986.

It obviously wasn't "un-American" when the top bracket tax rates were much higher in the past. We had our biggest economic growth under those tax rates.

The argument of "if you tax the rich and large corporations at a higher rate, they won't hire or do business here", is complete BS. If they leave to do business somewhere else, then hit them with tariffs and import taxes when they try to bring their goods and services back into the US. I bet they'll stay here in the US and start hiring Americans again, it we don't give them cheaper options outside the US.

The US is still one of the top consumer nations. Corporations(and rich tycoon families) don't want to lose the revenue they make off of US consumers. It's time they contributed their fair share, back to the people that they profit the most from.

In the past 10 years, we've had the lowest income tax rates, since before the Great Depression. Taxing those who make many many times more $$ than what it costs to live comfortably, isn't un-American, nor is it unethical. It's already been done successfully in our past US history.

The rich use and get more tax breaks than the middle class do. They have more money to pay others to find the loopholes and exemptions, than average Americans have.

I only claim myself and minor business expenses(as a self employed part owner of a business), even though I financially support a wife and son that live outside the US(Costa Rica). I pay taxes and I don't claim all the exemptions I can.

John B. We haven't had 30 years of trickle down. What we have had is almost 50 years of democrats controlling most of the government. Except for about 6 or so years democrats have held the majority in congress - the spending arm of government. You want to blame republicans for all the debt, or conservatives for all the problems. That's simply hogwash. The only thing I can say about your opinion is you have been blinded by liberalism.

If the democrats are so good at budget control, or bringing in spending, how come the deficit has nearly tripled in the past 4 years? Remember congress changed in 2006 and they are the spending arm of government. Your rethoric is what is wrong with this country. You refuse to look at the democrats as doing anything wrong. Tell me - what have democrats done for this country lately? They have gotten us deeper in debt and one day closer to death.

Not all republicans are conservatives... many are liberals and only carry the republican party as a way to get re-elected... and you see what happened in the last election. Many RINOS are outta here losing in the primaries.

Conservatism hasn't been practiced in a very long time. The so called trickle down just isn't there like you claim. We don't have the manufacturing base we used to have because some democrat (name not mentioned) signed NAFTA. Right now we are having misery... and I'm surprised they haven't brought back the misery index like we had with Carter... one of the worst presidents we had before this one.

REPOST - COMPLIMENTS OF THE COLLAPSE COWARDS:

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community

Another one BITES the dust!

Thankfully we've seen the last of CU Farley & Ozzy123 (although don't think for a minute he won't be back)! He's got to much anger and HATE to keep him away...

tyler

Ozzy123 banned, rereg of currently suspended CU Farley, also banned

Winners NEVER cheat and cheaters NEVER win loser!

Oh REALLY? Never heard of "Reaganomics", I take it? The current argument over "Bush tax cuts" isn't really happening? PATCO wasn't decertified? Private contractors haven't worked by the hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Yes, and you're correct, NAFTA didn't work out that well. The treaty was negotiated by George HW Bush, with heavy pressure from Conservatives that if Clinton didn't sign it it would prove he's "just another Liberal."

So please, continue to pretend that Conservatism has never been tried. If that's what you believe then Conservatism that works has much in common with the imaginary Marxism popular among college students of the 1970s.

"We have become a culture where making money doesn't entitle you to it, but wanting it does".

Sorry don't remember who said it but it's very true!

Obama is Bush 43 not 41. Let's get our facts straight.

We are running out of time to settle this issue. Absolutely nothing in the Democratic policies will get through after this month and for the next 2 years while republicans will be in the majority.

This 1 tax issue is holding up 2 years of policies that are meant to help us. If we don't get some things set into policy I believe we will lose everything.

The Republicans want nothing more or willing to work for anything except the tax rate for the upper 2%.

What is at stake? Unemployment extension, health care, VA benefits, food for children, funds for our kids to go to college, $250 for elderly on SS because of no COLA again, funds for infrastructure, lower tax rates for businesses, write off costs for new equipment to start new businesses for a year. It continues on from here.

If we throw away all these benefits that passed the House over the last 2 years and just sitting in the Senate, we are losing so much more than what the richest 2% of this country will suck out of us.

Backing down regarding the tax issue for the rich is a nasty pill to swallow. We have our principles, our sense of right and wrong. However, are we going to throw everything else away? Are our principles stronger than our sense of right and wrong when it comes to keeping us, the middle class, alive? As difficult as it is, we are the majority in this country and it is our duty to help each other.

I would like to get this tax mess over with. Put everything else in place. Perhaps take out the estate tax thing. If not, it will still be to our advantage to give these greedy bastards their freaking money. In the end, we win. Once over with, we will have the pleasure of letting the Republicans know that we threw them the bone they wanted so badly. If the economy tanks again and nothing gets better, ok, thank the Republicans. If it works the opposite, we will be able to say the Democrats joined together for the betterment of all Americans, not just the rich.

This is our opportunity to take the offensive and let the Republicans know, without question, that we have been beaten down for years and it stops now. We need to lead our Representatives to support our will. We have to stop waiting for them to take the lead for us.

The Good of The Many Outweighs The Good of the Few.

The only people who think Obama is "Bush 41" are Republicans who are trying to vindicate Bush's policies of war and free market theory, most notably trickle down tax cuts for the rich. But of course this is chicken crap.

Obama has never embraced supply-side voodoo economics. It is obvious to folks with half a brain that Obama is simply trying to broker a deal as soon as possible so that the middle class will not lose tax cuts or unemployment insurance during a recession, and to end uncertainty that businesses have been using as an excuse not to hire.

Obama won the primary against Hillary Clinton because he did not support the invasion of Iraq. He has drawn down troops there in accordance with the time line he campaigned on. In Afghanistan, he is simply being cautious and work with military leaders, because Afghanistan always presented real threat in the war on terrorism unlike Iraq.

And, if Obama is "Bush 41" I'll assume that means he's no longer a socialist communist Muslim? Ha!

You are still the best IR.

I second what newday said. Seriously.

Awesome comment.

Hi, Nash, glad to see you back! Missed reading your posts.

Thank you Ladies. You'll know your aces with me. Snowing outside so it looks like the Hill Folk are going to have another White Christmas. How about you'll? Anybody up for having old Drive-By put a little Bing Crosby on the Juke Box down at the Dew Drop Inn this evening. I'm kind of getting into a Captain Morgan and Hot Cider with just a touch of Cinnamon kind of mood myself

Amen, IR. No one will write anything better today.

IR, that sounds heavenly, and I should be back in time to join you! Snowing here too, storm moving in tonight.

Beverly in Chicago Comment collapsed by the community

Good Morning America

Call of Duty

Admittedly, the patriotic lovers living in the home of the brave (America) are selfish, hypocritical, cowards a.k.a. the ignoble Republican/Tea Party. The values of life mean nothing, nada, zilch, zero to the Republican/Tea Party. It is unconscionable to think of them in as anything other.

The Republican/Tea Party have focused on the ruffled feathers of 54 house Democrats and House Speaker Pelosi. Take into account the pale, male, greedy, burly, unconscionable, liars of the GOP. They have been consistently scornful in their efforts to repress American citizens. That takes balls to refuse citizens of the basic essentials of humanity in their disdain

The Senate Republicans have killed the bill that would provide support for Ground Zero workers who became chronically ill from the effects of their work in the rubble of the World Trade Center. Should I mention te workers, many of whom helped, in the cleanup and rescue operations as volunteers, after 9-11. cops, firefighters, and others who rushed to help. They searched endlessly for bodies; breathed toxic fumes; and now many have chronic illnesses such as cance. They now have ... It is an affirmation of every horrible mixed message it is "A Tale of Two Cities"

Imagine more, eat less

The tax cuts are fodder for The GOP to blame the President for American's suffering.

Jan Brewer wants poor to die or pull money they don't have from their @ss.

Obama said that despite a rebellion by many Democrats against his tax deal, it will pass because "nobody -- Democrat or Republican -- wants to see people's paychecks smaller on Jan. 1 because Congress didn't act."

Mr. President you're too kind to the Rethuglican

Since I’m in a Biblical Mood this Morning.

“Lead us not into Temptation”

“ Judge not least ye be Judged”

As usual, right on IR.

IR:

You are best! The truth is awesome.

Guess I should have expanded on that phrase up there a little. Meant it to say " Lead us not into Temptation and Deliver us from the Collapsers cause they Know not what they do"

Perfect, IR, absolutely perfect. Every senator and representative on both sides of the aisle needs this advice--stop being childish and be adults, start working for the American people who pay you.

Yeh artyboy but unlike yourself I'm a lovable old Rambling idiot with at least a modicum of redeeming social value. You have a good Morning there too if it's possible for someone like yourself.

Independent Redneck Va.

"From small and simple things great things come to pass!"

Tis the season for putting away childish things and taking care of the small and simple things so the great things can come to pass.

IR, that is so profound. How I wish the ones calling be Feisty, and Anita racist could see they could be great if they would just appreciate the most aspect of all, the value of human life. Perhaps, my choice of words at times are offensive. But no matter how I try to embellish the current conditions in our country, I'm attacked even if I don't use harsh language. That is what I find enigmatic. If I say up; they'll say down because Fox News, Rush, Beck, Hannity, Palin et al say it isn't.

Fox Noise has been a vector for poisionous rhetoric and the adult viewers brainwash the kids.

Andrew is a pint-sized conservative who’s not afraid to actually say he’s racist. Here is a video featuring some of his best political dogma, from his thoughts on Barack Obama and illegal immigrants to sex education in the nation’s schools.

http://wonkette.com/431640/racist-child-is-americas-greatest-pundit

My 8 yr old grandson asked me to turn off FOX he was so offended. If an 8 yr old can sense injustice why can't an adult? Children are innocent; but their views can be slanted by their environments.

LEAKED EMAIL: Fox boss caught slanting news reporting

December 09, 2010 7:31 am ET by Ben Dimiero

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201012090003

Fox's reporters were told the should use "government option" and similar phrases -- wording that a top Republican pollster had recommended in order to turn public opinion against the Democrats' reform efforts.

Now I've admitted by mistake in my descriptive choice of words.

The Debate in its present formulation within our legislative branch has become childish, petty and nonproductive.

Tis the season for putting away childish things and taking care of the small and simple things so the great things can come to pass.

Totally agree. However, It seems as though the only person on Capitol Hill ready to do this is the President. While I personally would have liked him to be tougher in dealing with the Republicans I realize that this is not his way because is just not into angry invective. Hell, he would never have gotten elected in the first place if he were. So thus far he has operated under a base assumption that when push came to shove on essential operating issues or general welfare/well-being of the American public at large the opposition party would be willing to step down from their posturing platform, negotiate in good faith, and make enough meaningful concessions from their supposed ideology to allow the nation to move forward. Sadly, this has not been the case. For the sole purpose of political spinning of the 2012 Presidential election the Republicans have opposed and obstructed every initiative. If that were not enough, they have constantly and predictably reacted with cynical over-blown histronics, ridiculous dire predictions, extreme distortions of fact or patent lies, and in far too many cases irresponsible, slanderous, and scurrilous attacks on the President. On many, many occasions over the past two years President Obama has extended an olive branch and asked the Republicans to work with him and on virtually every single occasion they have given him the cold shoulder in return and then had the utter gall to complain about being shut out of the process. More than a few of their members still promote or encourage the birth-certificate folly, insist on calling Obama a socialist or Marxist, insinuated he was affiliated with Muslim extremism in contradiction of his stated Christian belief and otherwise attempted to undermine his credibility with patently false and inflammatory statements and accusations.

The Republicans often defend their actions as being based on "Principle"their , yet when you examine the Obama proposals they have rejected you will find many of them are quite similar to or even exactly the same as proposals made by Republicans in the not-too-distant past. So much for their claim of being a "Principled" opposition. No, the reality of what they are is this: A power-hungry, craven group of would-be demagogues, cynical hypocrites, disingenuous liars, and Bible-toting know-nothing flat-earther fool and bigots. Behind this they have a loud and well-paid back bench of souless media shills repeating and expanding disingenuous party memes. Separately they would be easy to dismiss, but mixed together they have formed a determined and extremely dangerous political block that is both impervious to reason and intent on fomenting and ramping up distrust and discord. They have taken obstructive partisanship to a level far beyond anything in our recent history and have introduced a vile and toxic tone divisive ugliness into our already contentious political environment.

jesus propped on a popsickle stick! Could you keep the religious cultists outta newsvine? I am going to scream the next time I hear someone who has "put away childish things" talk to an invisible being, ask it for advice, and give its representative con man at least a tenth of his families income. lmao!

Bev thank you for your kind words and good thoughts.

Me personally dear I have never seen anywhere on this forum where you owed any one an apology for your choice of words. Any of the other Ladies either. You and Red seem to bear the brunt of what any regular on this board knows is a concerted effort by a small number of folks to miss use some of the technical aspects of this format instead of hitting the reply button and speaking to you’ll directly. If that’s the best they can do I actually feel quite sorry for Them

As far as me personally I have stood up right beside you’ll ladies for a long time now and been proud to do it. Only way their ever going to get me to stop is wrest this Keyboard out of my hands.

Tax Analyst

Thank you for a sharing a well written and thoughtful post with us. Having you here with me does me an honor and I purely do appreciate it.

Amen brother. It is called GOVERNING. That is what Obama was elected to do -- not campaign, not run his mouth, not get in the face of the opposition, but govern. Put forth ideas, discuss ideas, and yes, COMPROMISE. That is what GOVERNING is all about. Well said.

REPOST - COMPLIMENTS OF THE COLLAPSE COWARDS:

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community

Another one BITES the dust!

Thankfully we've seen the last of CU Farley & Ozzy123 (although don't think for a minute he won't be back)! He's got to much anger and HATE to keep him away...

tyler

Ozzy123 banned, rereg of currently suspended CU Farley, also banned

Winners NEVER cheat and cheaters NEVER win loser!

Mid-terms are mid-terms, the FAUX NEWS effect magnified the ignorance vote.

Perhaps the most disgraceful episode in the whole Bush tax cuts extension spectacle was the sight of Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) self-righteously announcing that he simply could not accept President Obama's compromise agreement with Congressional Republicans.

No, the most disgraceful episode came yesterday when the Senate Republicans and Harry Reid successfully filibustered the 9/11 responders health care bill to hold fast to their promise to block all legislation until the Bush Tax Shift is a done deal.

Mixed Bag: I was thinking the same thing last night when I saw him on tv. I could only shake my head in disgust. These Democrats in the House want President Obama to fight. Yet they were scared to death to vote on the extensions before the primary. They may be fooling a lot of people. But they're not fooling me. This is all nonsense they're pulling up there on the Hill. And yes, Van Hollen in particular, was on tv all the time stating emphatically that the Democrats would not lose the House. I just don't believe them any longer. This fight should have been fought a long time ago. Whether it's President Obama's fault, Reid or Pelosi, I don't know. I can move on. These tax cut extensions never really entered into my decision when I decided to support Obama in 2008. I wanted the wars ended, I wanted DADT stopped. I wanted immigration reform. I wanted some intelligence in the White House. And I don't care what anyone thinks - we have it.

The rich get their cuts extended for 2 years. I hate it. But move on.

p.s. I saw your comment last night re: Adam Green. I don't know much about him and if he's a purist, then that is a problem I agree. But I do appreciate his willingness to get out there and get in the fight. He doesn't just show up on tv or on a computer whining. He gets out there and really does try hard. And I can admire that in just about anyone, whether they win or lose.

Fake filibustered.

Reid voted with the fake filibusterers so he could bring the measure back up for a vote. Do you not understand the difference between the real and fake filibuster?

Possibly...

But serious analysts tend to believe it came down to the independent voters who deserted the Democratic Party in droves after supporting it in 2006 and 2008.

Same voters...they simply thought a change in direction made sense.

Hard to argue.

Pat-

We don't agree on much, and probably never will.

But...I'm glad that we see eye-to-eye where Van Hollen is concerned.

Pat,

Again today you make a great point. All is said and done. Now it seems that the Democrats are going to be the party of "NO". But that is fine by me, but our president compromised in good faith, doing things that should have been done months ago, but I guess Nancy & Harry had other things that were more important. They might not have lost the house had they worked on these things earlier. But it is time to move on.

Although not a great fan, I have seen progress in the President lately, especially last night talking about reforming the tax code. I am a firm believer in that, and hope that real ideas come out of it. Not shams that keep allowing loopholes and super deductions. He himself even mentioned that income tax rates could come down even more if reformed correctly.

Put Van Hollen in the Dippsy Dumper. With Democrats like him in our Party, who needs Repugs and Tea Potties. Remember him next election.

Hear, hear, mixed bag -- perfectly stated. The abominable self-righteousness of a few Dems in the past couple of days is close to unbearable. Now that the press has decided that the president is acting "presidentially", perhaps he should continue his roll and blast the Hell out of those pitiful Dems who are going around wimpering, "Ahh, Woe is Me!" I don't mean he needs to do so publicly, but a well placed, brief phone call to each of these turncoats would be appropriate. He ought to tell them all, to a man/woman, to get the Hell off of dead center and either be or not be a Dem, but whatever the case, stop the ersatz power-tripping! I sure do hope that whenever Van Hollen is up for re-election that he loses. More fodder for the growing horde of term limit supporters!

The House and Senate democrats failed the President who urged them often to deal with the tax issue before the election but they chickened out. He was out there campaigning hard and winning the voters to allow the high-end tax cuts to expire; it would have been easy to push through. Obama could have threatened the Senate GOP with veto on everything but now there's no time to keep fighting. Now democrats are throwing temper tantrums trying to blame the President. What I'd like to see is the House democrats blaming the right people--the Senate GOP for blocking everything and ignoring the Constitution, and the Senate democrats who can't sell soap to their colleagues.

as usual another spin by US NAVY. No one got a Cut . Not even from the Death Tax. . It is at Zero right an Increase of 35 percent is not a cut..

but we understand Navy. that if the Govt doesn't get more of other peoples Money. that means less for you and the rest of your Liberal Friends

It was set to automatically go back up.

We understand that you think that 35 percent is not Enough, 90 percent woudn't be enough for liberals.

Until the deficit and national debt are down to zero, yes.

I didnt Lie about anything Navy. . Thats right i got mine by working Hard, You can too. If you work hard as can everyone. The Big lie in all of this is that Democrats Need you Dependant on them and in your case and many others here on FR they have Succeeded. That makes me sad. because i know many of you can be alot more then what you are...without depending on the Govt..

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

IR:

Good point. Our politicians are now playing the political version of chicken. It really make very little difference who blinks, America still looses.

Hi navy

What I find interesting everyone is blaming President Obama. The Democratic chickens in Congress who didn't stand behind the President prior to midterms suddenly blame him. Now they want to unite and complain. What else could Obama do they tied his hands

Check this out..

Steve King Outlines GOP Legislative Strategy: Defund Health Care Reform In ‘Every Appropriations Bill’

King repeated his demand for “100% repeal” of health care reform and to rip it out “by the roots.” He also took direct aim at those less fervent in their repeal-zeal, writing that “we certainly don’t need to hamper our efforts at the beginning by drafting a clumsy ‘repeal and replace’ bill.”

King described in further detail precisely how he and the GOP plan to kill health care reform. He demanded that “every appropriations bill we pass” explicitly bar “any money allocated therein from being spent on implementing” health care reform:

The second thing that Republicans need to do is to lay the groundwork for defunding any and all efforts to implement Obamacare

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/12/08/america-wants-congress-repeal-obamacare-time-work/#ixzz17YvbLoNu

Good Paul. Then you and all your Libby Friends Give all your money to the Fed Govt.. EVERY DIME

As long as everyone else has to as well, I am fine with that. I'll make more after the deficit is zero and the debt is gone.

Steve, your pretzel logic is just that!....Are you familiar with the phrase 'No man is an island'!

Think about it before you get all twisted up!

Steve-505729

Thats right i got mine by working Hard, You can too. If you work hard as can everyone.

Steve,

Obviously you have been fortunate - VERY fortunate. You've managed to avoid the downsizing, outsourcing that have put so many HARD WORKING, RESPONSIBLE Americans out of work. It's happening every day in countless industries - people who've been with a company for decades, worked hard, gave it their all find themselves suddenly laid off. But YOU, Steve -- I guess you're such a hard worker that it could never happen to someone like you.

And what's sad is that you really seem to believe that's all about you and there's no luck involved.

There's an American businessman -- Steve MacNeil, MacNeil Automotive - who runs a successful business AND gets what you do NOT. He's written about this in his print advertising, and on the company website as well. I first read this in one of their magazine ads. He's brought his manufacturing back to the US, from offshore; he uses US-built equipment in his shop and buys materials from US sources. Feel free to Google this, it's quite available.

His philosophy: "If my neighbor doesn't have a job, sooner or later I won't have a job either."

And Steve-O, don't think for a minute that can't and eventually won't apply to you.

Bev and Paul;

Touche'

It is not about the rich making money. I like making money just as much as anybody. But I also want this country to prosper and grow. It is not about me and what I have or do not have. It is about all Americans and that is the difference. If America does not prosper I do not prosper, simple but true. IfAmerica does not prosper it is only a matter of time before we collapse as a nation, and nobody will prosper. People will not be able to buy goods and services and those providing them will go under as well as the rest of us. You must build on a solid foundation, and throughout history that foundation has been the middle class. I am tired of hearing the republicans say they never worked for a poor person. They should be saying that with out the middle class to buy their product and services they would not be so well off and they would not have jobs to boot.

The tax deal is only a small part of the equation. Yes it may sitmulate the eccomy for a time but we still need to cut spending and increase revenues, otherwise this house of cards is going to come crumbling down on all our heads.

The republican/tea party is on record that they will not do anything, they are geared to make President obama a one term president, period. Even after they get this deal passed, and I think it will pass, they are going to go back to being obstructionist. They are not going to work with President Obama, they will block everything that has his name on it, even though Boehner and McConnell said they would work with him if this deal gets approved. Just wait and see. I bet they will not help and gridlock will be the word of the day for the next 2 years. Make no mistake about it. We have already seen it this week. They blocked the National Defense Act and the 9/11 First Responders Bill as well. Same old, same old.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

All you people care about is that you got yours and the he!! wth everybody else. Good Plan.

Ahh yes. the ol' classic lib taxation philosophy:

"You got yours.....

Now GIVE IT TO ME!"

Good morning Navy, Nice posts as usual, Tell LT jg Hi from Hamletrules, Keep up the fight your 100% spot on!

Steve: If you work hard as can everyone...

In an ideal world, this would work. But our world is not ideal. If everyone would behave themselves and continue to work together, things might be different.

But instead everyone has this elitist mentality. "I've got mine, I could care less about you." People say "if everyone was like me, we would have no problems." In situations like this, when people will not do the right thing, there has to be an arbiter. Like the government.

Don't like that? Then start working together more for the common good. And have some compassion for your fellow man who may not enjoy the same opportunities, education and health that you do.

there is no ambition for the top 2% to create new jobs they have down sized now and don't pay much taxes with all the loop holes . the rich have made so much money in the last ten years and so far away from the middle class . most of these companies are over seas , and could care less about America . hell bush Cheney and all his cronies had some part in a business away from this country . it should be iillegal and maybe is,but the laws weather be of our land or Geneva convection means absolutely nothing to those people .

as you read these posts its not hard to figure out who has their hand out, get out of bed and go get a job

fielden,

You have fallen into the Trap that you are not smart enough to do it on your own, the democrats have succeeded with you. they have convinced you that you need them to go to bat for you, You dont need them. You only need yourself and the God Given Talents you were given. Govt only makes things worse.

Steve:

The top tax bracket earners were taxed at a much higher rate 25-65 years ago. Why are people(the rich) complaining that they don't think those who are way above being well off, should pay more than who aren't?

From 1950-1963, the federal tax rate on all taxable income over $400,000, was OVER 90%. From 2003-2008, the federal tax rate on all taxable income over $297,000-$357,000(it fluctuated by year), was 35%.

It's obvious that our economy was booming the most and at its best, when the rich(and large corporations) in the top brackets were paying over double the amount of taxes that they currently pay. If it was done before with great success(and the rich still made lots of $$ and their businesses were hiring), then it would probably work again.

How about taxing all income over $500,000 at a 45%, instead of 35%.

And before anyone starts b*tching about how it's "un-American", remember that the US used to tax all income over $106,000-$400,000(depending on the year) at between 50% and 94%(also depending on the year) between 1932 and 1986.

It obviously wasn't "un-American" when the top bracket tax rates were much higher in the past. We had our biggest economic growth under those tax rates.

The argument of "if you tax the rich and large corporations at a higher rate, they won't hire or do business here", is complete BS. If they leave to do business somewhere else, then hit them with tariffs and import taxes when they try to bring their goods and services back into the US. I bet they'll stay here in the US and start hiring Americans again, it we don't give them cheaper options outside the US.

The US is still one of the top consumer nations. Corporations(and rich tycoon families) don't want to lose the revenue they make off of US consumers. It's time they contributed their fair share, back to the people that they profit the most from.

In the past 10 years, we've had the lowest income tax rates, since before the Great Depression. Taxing those who make many many times more $$ than what it costs to live comfortably, isn't un-American, nor is it unethical. It's already been done successfully in our past US history.

Good point, Nashville, the "scolding" has been way overblown. All this whining and posturing is just that; it is easier to blame the President than to accept responsibililty for failing to do what he urged them to do--get the tax issue resolved before the election.

You have a good weekend, too. Congress needs to be sent to sit in the corner for a Time Out and we all need a time out from them.

fake filibustered again.

Their priorities are clear, DN, their priorities are clear.

Are you sue Harry Reid voted against this?

Good one, Da Noid. Those you named deserve to find a lump of coal in their stocking.

Harry Reid voted Yes and then changed his vote to no so that the bill could come up in the Senate again. This is a procedural issue that all do. If he left the vote stand as yes, the bill would be dead and could not be voted upon again. By changing his vote to no we get to fight another day.

Do not confuse this with a NO vote on the bill. It was not. Just a procedural move to keep the bill alive, nothing more than that.

there are a lot of good causes but i think we should start thinking about paying for these programs before we enact them

...and yet we don't appear to be concerned about how we are going to pay for the Mega Bush Tax Shift for the Super Rich.

I believe that's called "irony".

G.H.W. BUSH has too many people fooled about who he is and was.

Agreed, Matthew. HW didn't get enough credit.

I give 41 credit for speaking the truth back when he was running against Reagan for the POTUS nomination:

He called supply-side, trickle-down "Voodoo Economics". And he was right.

I agree; he was old-school conservative. President G.H.W. Bush was absolutely right when he called Reaganomics what it was--voo doo. Bush 41 paid the price for the disastrous economic policies of Reagan.

jody reagan was the greatest president this nation has ever known

Reagan was a good president- kept us out of major wars, raised taxes on the wealthy, and started serious detente w/Russia. Brought back a tangible sense of pride in the country. He would be disgusted by Beck and Hannity. One of our best presidents though: Bush I; he took the fall for his policies, and until now rarely got credit for the "Clinton" economic era...although as we see now, it was killed by NAFTA and Clinton allowing vast numbers of good jobs and manufacturing to flee overseas...leaving the USA a giant service sector and those who prey on it. Its either: want fries w/that OR a government worker, not much else out there...

jockland, you might want to loosen up that moniker a little, it's affecting your thinking.

Remember Iran/Contra (I'm convinced Bush had Quayle as his VP to avoid impeachment . . . think about it)? How about going from a creditor nation to a debtor nation under his economic policies? Maybe the 10% unemployment rate due to his economic policies might change your mind? Do you remember any of this?

Greatest President this nation has ever known my fat behind.

Jockland , you're not doing very well today. Maybe you're trying to hard to be glib and fresh like the big boys here. I have this theory regarding Bonzo Regan if you will allow me:

The universe stopped expanding and started to fold back in on itself the second that Regan was inaugurated. It was the zenith of civilization and that one man will be regarded as being the beginning of the end. So much for your idiotic comment about Regan.

he had a lot of cleaning up to do after the carter years

Like how Obama has a lot of cleaning up to do after the Cheney/Bush 43 years?

skeeter u are pretty much right. Also: once again we see the "moral" issues (DADT, abortion, earmarks) fade away as soon as the election is over...they divided us again, then went on their merry way.

With the exception of George Washington, every President has blamed his predecessor. Goes with the job. Time to move forward and work to solve our problems.

all of the senators who stole from the Social Security fund should be tried as traitors and corrupt embezzelers and hung...how is that NOT more catastrophic than some pale australian releasing diplomatic cables?? btw: Where did the author come up w/Obama having the "ivy league "grace of GHWB?? he smokes, shows his anger all the time, and cannot speak worth a damn.

Angry much, rock?

rock, or whomever he sort of quoted, exists in some alternate reality.

uh, paul did ya read the article, or just troll by?? I love the bloggers on here who try to divide instead of look at the real issue/problem with our country: gangster government, driven by the broke two-party system. I'll stay in my version of reality Paul, you go live in whichever one you think is having an honest debate or dialogue about good government and how one side or another really have the people's interests at heart. K?

Diebold

Hanging Chad

SCOTUS: Bush v. Gore

That's an election issue. Back to serving the wealthy as usual.

Well said, Pat. I respect Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow even when I am in absolute, total disagreement with their views as they expressed this week against President Obama.

pat you are nuts get help before you hurt your self

I never liked Olbermann...til i saw him attack Obama the other night. he did everything but scream sell-out and Oreo! As a socialist like many of our founding fathers, i find the Obama/Bush elitism and capitalist excess disgusting.

Olbermann is an ENTERTAINER, that is all. His show is for entertainment purposes only.

FOX and MSNBC are mostly opinion. They are one in the same no matter how you lefties want to spin it.

"you lefties..."-- nice, Inthemiddle, TX, but have any of you on newsvine ever realized how brainwashed the entire state of Texas sounds? very little knowledge, revisionist ideas of what our founders were like, etc. I was managing a business once in Alaska, and we used to get a kick outta the oil workers and their families: one brought in his mama, and we talked about the two states; she started to cry and scream "tell him he's a liar" when i mentioned that Alaska was twice as big as Texas....lol. Small state, small mind.

ITMTexass: Just because you are a clown doesn't make Olbermann an entertainer.

"FOX and MSNBC are mostly opinion. They are one in the same no matter how you lefties want to spin it."

Yeah, you know- spin. Like how Fox 'spins' itself as a 'fair and balanced NEWS' outlet, and MSNBC 'spins' itself as 'the place for politics'.

Sounds like maybe one 'spins' just a tad more than the other one, huh?

DBO:

"FOX and MSNBC are mostly opinion."

FOX is a subsidiary of the Republican Party.

Apparently you did not hear about the mole in FOX NEWS who leaked memos from Bill Sammons. During the Health Care Reform harangue, Sammons gave talking points to the talking heads at FOX that told them what to say and not say.

The biggie was "never use the term "public option". They were admonished and told to use "government run health plan". The reason being that public opinion polls showed that "public option" had a good response from the voters.

Media Matters reported this little ditty yesterday. The suits over at FOX are a little nervous because they haven't ferreted out the plant yet!

This is delicious!

But they don't call themselves FOX OPINION.

They're not owned and operated by FOX OPINION Corporation.

Opinions don't need to be Fair or even Balanced, so why do they even claim to be "FAIR and BALANCED" when their own internal memos demonstrate that they have no interest in being such?

News is supposed to indicate that journalism is being practiced here. There is nothing of equivalence between what FAUX NEWS does, disengenuously, and what MSNBC tries to do, openly.

It is the difference between Fox Propoganda, and MSNBC news and Opinion.

Fox propaganda = FAUX News

Are you under the delusion that insurance companies don't already ration care?

No delusions whatever. But the goverment should be on the outside not on the inside. Who do I goto with complaints if it's the goverment doing it to me?

Jim, insurance companies currently decide who gets what treatment; there is no government panel because the insurance remains in the private sector. Get it? It's still private insurance. HCR simply tells private insurance they must ensure everyone who applies, cannot cancel insurance, and must spend at least 80% of their earnings on actual health care.

i like the house reduction idea, although maybe not that dramatic. Maybe in half....yeah, cut every one of the bastards in half.

Jim-792457

Ron, Ret-Navy-Vet, Beverly: All we need is a Fiesty and the left hand lunatics will all be here. Y I personally don't see that much concern with DADT. There are already other fraternization rules in place that will ban open personal relationships. That is the same in the private sector. People can't just walk around holding hands, kissing and showing bias

I don't expect people to walk around holding hands, kissing and showing bias either. What I do expect is that you should realize all people work hard and pay taxes. No one is asking for a hand out just a hand up. I also expect righties to know what money means in this country individually and collectively. My individual money can be spent the way I want.

My collective dollars go to the government. I have no problem with those dollars going into our infrastructure. I want my water and food supply safe. I don't want to be on a collapsing (oops there's that word again :0) or airplanes falling out the sky, I want libraries, hospitals, firemen, police, teachers and whatever it takes to better our communities. I don't want billions of tax dollar loop holes going to billionaires and people like you complaining that poor being a drain and eyesore on society. Perhaps, if the billionaires paid their fair share the middle class wounld not be the new poor class.

Living in close proximity to people does eliminate biases.

You guys call it whatever the heck you want to call it but, the HCR includes an independent panel who will decide what's cost effective and what is not. Even Obama's CZARs say some rationing of health care will have to happen to make it even. If you want to call that the I'm so happy I'm so free panel go for it. It is what it is.

Proof Fox lies...LEAKED EMAIL: Fox boss caught slanting news reporting

December 09, 2010 7:31 am ET by Ben Dimiero

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201012090003

Fox's reporters were told the should use "government option" and similar phrases -- wording that a top Republican pollster had recommended in order to turn public opinion against the Democrats' reform efforts.

Hey, Jim how's that small government, no death panel going for you righties in AZ. Insurance companies had death panel long before HCR all in the name of free market. "Death for a Profit" I call it, god forbid you know someone taht has to go though it.

The Government you loathe so much is the only looking out for your interests when you file an insurance claim. You have a mixed up view of who is your friend and who is your enemy.

Insurance companies have been killing people forever. Increase premiums, cancel if a person gets sick and deny coverage when someone either gets treatment or dies.

You know that as well as anyone else.

The Senate democrats proved last Saturday that they did not have the 60 votes to pass the tax plan President Obama and they wanted, 5 democrats voted against it. Had they been able to pass that plan, the compromise would have been thrown in the dumpster. Yet it is President Obama who is blamed, then they complain because he apparently hurt their fragile feelilngs.

Not so fast. This ain't over yet.

Sorry, but many of us have been talking about gridlock (obstructionism) for the last 2 years. Over 400 bills blocked and being held hostage by the right, even ones that they initially approved sounds like gridlock to me. Just this week they blocked the National Defense Act and the 9/11 First Responders Bill, more gridlock and what about all those appointments that the right are holding hostage as well?

This has been the problem for 2 years now and will continue for the next 2, the republicans has so pledged.

US Navy

Nonsense the lunacy is that Nasty Nancy would rather ignore any thought of compromise and pass bills that she knows are going nowhere so that she can say look what I did rather then getting anything done for the America people.

In this lame ducj session, the Republicans made it clear (except to brain dead liberals) that they would not act on legislation until the budget and the tax bills were completed

Once those two things are done, the bills you mention will sail through

Navy, then this poses a question. With these points you made re: the 400 bills blocked by the Repubs, and it must be factually correct, why in the world aren't the Dems using this, in great detail, when they are campaigning for re-election? It would seem to me that making a huge deal out of all this would be very much to the advantage of those who oppose the Repubs.

Robert,

Pretty well said, but you see the Democratic leadership still brings up things that cannot pass, trying to make themselves look good to their party. And yet, their/our president comes up with a compromise, and still they fight it. More important to "Dream" or "Don't Tell" than to pass a budget, get unemployment extensions, and not raise taxes during hard economic times. But by gosh, it could have been done prior to the elections, but nope, gotta go home and campaign. Wasted taxpayer money, on their flights home.

Robert - You mean like DADT that they just shot down yesterday?

Of course it got shot down yesterday.

Is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" more important than passing a budget--which of course is still not moving, or unemployment extension money, or tax cut extensions for 98% of the people.

Work on the important things first, then deciding whether or not homosexuals can serve openly in the military can get taken care of.

Don't know it, gridlock means Obama isn't spending money.

I will cheerfully settle for gridlock..

The government would have to shut down, that, is as good as it gets.

Shutting down the government will add to the debt, dimwit.

there is no irony if you the two party system for what it really is: a uniparty

The President will win re-election, due to the republican actions of block and stall.

jobi you wish did it ever occur to you that maybe these are just bad policys

The right has been misinformed, while they are not being given any real tangible ideas from their base of what they would do to improve our country, if the far right gained control of our government. Their stance is based on intolerance and in many cases a hate brought of by the far right extremist, with no plans to run the country once they get elected. Their voters are so filled with lie-fed hatred they don't demand a candidate that has a plan to solve our countries problems.

I have yet to hear of any plan that the republican-tea party have for solving the problems. Oh you will hear cut spending and take the country back. But, there is no plan, just general talk of, "Stop Obama."

But, in reality your main funders are fighting to keep big corporations interest ahead of the American People.

ROY----------- Yep, you can take that to the bank.

2008 a lot of us looked at having to vote for McCain, or Obama, we just stayed home.

Shame on us, we will not be at home in 2012.

We have watched Obam at work for 2 years, we will be out and you can look for new conservative record turnouts.

This guy scares any rational person to death.

And yet he's STILL more popular than Reagan or Clinton at this point in their terms. http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx

Saying he's unpopular more often doesn't make it more true.

And all Americans will remember those who have done nothing the last 2 years. Any politician who refuses to do their job needs to be fired. doesn't matter if they are Republican or Democrat.

Valerie

Your post has made my day

The liberals want everything given to them without regard that it comes from somewhere and not just the welfare fairy

If we didn't waste money on millions of illegals we would all be in better position to serve "citizens" and I am sure this is even more true in border states like AZ and CA

Thanks for getting my day started knowing that sanity

Just curious, do any of the "transplants" work, buy services or contribute to the economy in Arizona? I find it highly doubtful that all the Mexican immigrants in Arizona came there to live on welfare.

valerie and bob i guess wwe are the only ones who realize these illegals cost us a ton of money libs will never get it

Yet your state could find money to spend for funding corporate interests but will allow young people to die for lack of funds. There but for the grace of God go I.... We're talking about the lives of some white people, too, a young father, a young girl but who cares what happens to them, it isn't me or mine. Don't give us the standard blame it on the illegals talking points--it is always conservatives who block any legislation that would solve that problem, they prefer to use it as campaign fodder for the guillible.

european (and canada) countries have millions of illegals and legal immigrants too; somehow they manage to have a great quality of life (we are 22nd), low cost or free healthcare, low cost or free education, lesser work weeks, 5 weeks paid vacation yearly, at least, beautiful cities, way lower crime, a real pension system, AND they retire 5-7 years before us (i.e. before they die). All for about the same taxes we pay, maybe a little more. How does that work, i mean, arent they socialist dictators who want to enslave us? Oh yeah- per capita they have just as many if not more billionaires than the USA...

Bring the troops home from two unfunded and unnecessary wars and put them on the border. Pass the dream act for those that are willing to contribute and had no choice but to come with their parents. Then make it mandaory of 5 years in prison without parole for anyone employeeing illegal aliens. Solves the budget deficiet as well as the immigration problem.

Most of those "illegals" work, pay rent, and buy goods and services that bring money into our economy. Many of them also pay taxes, yet never collect a refund or will be able to collect SS after they are eligible for it.

All societies(throughout history) find the group that are the least like them(color/language wise), and blame them as being the source for all their troubles.

We have more born "Americans" draining the system and committing criminal acts, than Hispanic "illegals" are. The majority of those on welfare aren't black or Latino(unless maybe you combine both groups). Look it up.

I do agree that we need to start heavily policing our southern border region(with the military as well, if necessary) to make sure drugs/guns/criminals and terrorist threats(WMDs) can't easily enter or leave our country.

We also need to give those who work and aren't criminals, permits to stay and work(pay taxes as well) and start them on the road to citizenship.

ROCK----------- Great quality of life?

Is that the same Europe that has 5 countries with people in the streets rioting now, because the government is cutting their handout progrms.

You libs have no shame and no integrity

Yeah, Europe's experiments in deregulation and laissiz-faire economics didn't pan out too well, either. The countries that kept sensible regulation in place didn't blow enormous economic bubbles that collapsed their economies. The only damage they took is from the USAs, Icelands, Irelands, UKs, and Greeces who fell for that fairytale.

fed senior.

where have you been the last 40 years? I too am (technically) a senior and in my opinon you are completely wrong. the republicans and the republican mindset to continually lower "taxes", create loopholes, drown the government in the bathtub, have and havemore base is what put this country on the road to ruin.

stick your head out the door once in awhile, gramps and figure it out... government is necessary and can be a huge force for the good. what needs to go is the implacable idelogoguery of the RW and the war mentality along with the bloated military/industrial complex.

that was Eisnehower, BTW, a general and a republican (pre Goldwater kind).

read about it and look it up. go to your public library. they have large print.

Liberal,

Maybe you should get out of the Library every now and then also. Parts of the government can be good, especially when protecting those who cannot protect themselves. But please, inform us of those wonderful government programs that work.

Let's see--Corp of Engineers--build lakes, help maintain river flood zones--oh, but their budget gets cut every year to make sure we give more money to foreign aid.

Social Security--well there's a great program, keeps people from saving, makes people rely on the government for their money. A simple supplement to one's retirement had now become many people's only retirement. Now that works.

And how about that foreign aid program, shipping about $41 billion dollars overseas, and according to some, our jobs also. But we can't seem to help all of our own. Now there is a great government program for the masses.

Maybe everyone should learn to not live off the government and support themselves. But hey that is a Right wing thought, I wouldn't expect you to believe in personal responsibility, especially if the government can do it for you.

Well said, LiberalLibrarian.

BigBear 62- yet again you manage to hit us with searing logic- man, you are really on a run today. your latest gem was a real winner.

You said:"Social Security--well there's a great program, keeps people from saving, makes people rely on the government for their money. A simple supplement to one's retirement had now become many people's only retirement. Now that works.'

Ok here's a challenge since you detest Soc Security so much , why don't you and the Teabag grifters get together and proudly BURN your social security cards. For all your incessant whining about it , I'll bet you dollars to donuts you and you ilk are the first to check the mailbox every month to grab that piece of MARXIST collateral.

Social Security KEEPS people from saving? Now that is news.

Were you trying to say that people who make enough to save for their own retirement, don't bother to save any of their excess pay because they have made a logical choice to rely solely upon Social Security?

Hmm, how about the EPA? You know, our air and water are much cleaner than before that agency came into being.

How about the CDC? Without federal-level disease control, we'd have a heck of a time recognizing or controlling an epidemic.

How about the FDA? Yeah, I'd love to live in one of those countries with unregulated drug manufacturing. Why do you think there are warnings about buying pharmaceuticals from certain countries? And, you know, I love eating imported lettuce with DDT and arsenic in it without my knowledge.

And although the MMS hasn't exactly been a poster child for public good (thanks to the gutting of its regulatory personnel by government-haters like Bush), I really want all energy production in this country ruled by people like Don Blankenship of Massey Energy, don't you?

Do you like to flush your toilet and have it go somewhere other than the gutter out front? Do you like paved roads? Electrical transmission lines? The internet?

Yeah, BigBear - the Middle Ages were great, weren't they? Can't wait to get back there.

Fed up SENIOR:

Adults!

Would Rand Paul be included in that bunch??

President Obama is a true American but I can't say as much for Senate republicans, Country First my foot--for them, it's who cares about the American people, we'll just continue doing nothing for them and they'll keep paying us to do it.

You do realize, kroni3us, that George W. Bush consistently ranks in the bottom 5 as the worst President in history, right? (Carter has never been at that level.) His fellow bottom feeders are Pierce, Harding, Buchanan and Andrew Johnson - not exactly high-class company.

President Carter is a brilliant man, a sincere Christian, and has done more for the country (and the world)as a former president than as president because the big oil companies, and the Congress bought by them, shut him down. He was right then about the energy crisis, and he is right now. Our dependence on oil might be our downfall. However, some people are finally getting smart and realizing Yes we do have alternatives!

Reagan on the other hand increased the national debt 186%, deregulated everything leaving us open to the WallStreet fiasco, and gave us "voodoo" economics in the form of TRICKle down economy where the TRICK led to more money in the rich man's pockets.

President Obama is rescuing our nation from the worst financial mess since the Great Depression thanks to GW and the Republicans are still screwing the middle class, and we keep letting them. He's smart enough to beat the Republicans at their own game - then the stupid progressives get in the way. We need more stimulous and the president is getting what we need. Shut up Keith! Obama knows what he's doing!

When are the middle class voters going to get smart and see that we are rapidly becoming the United Corporations of American with us as the cheap labor thanks to the Republicans?

As soon as Don is gone the average intelligence quotient here is going to go back up considerably.

And then Paul posted and dragged the intelligence level back down, considerably.....

The progressive news network has spoken:

"Obama is now acting presidential" - LIE, he is still a radical partisan hack.

"There is no comparison between Carter and Obama" - LIE, both are one world socialists that flushed the economy down the drain. Both were totally incomptetent. Both were too full of themselves to admit they were idiots. If there is any difference, it's that Obama is taxing and spending even more.

Valhalla Phil, wrong, it is the GOP Senators who are the political hacks. It's the President who is the adult in the room, Congress is acting like a bunch of 2 year olds; I take that back 2 year olds are more reasonable than Senate republicans.

Gee its 1p.m. and the Dixietards show up. Guess the alligator harvest was slow today.