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What did Attorney General Eric Holder mean when he said Monday that "there are other statutes, other tools that we have at our disposal," beyond the laws against espionage, that could be used to prosecute Julian Assange?
For one thing, government officials say, the Justice Department is considering whether a federal law dealing with theft of government property would apply. Part of that statute makes it a crime to receive or keep property that's known to have been stolen. The law applies to anyone who receives it with intent to "convert to his own use or gain."
While that would seem to be a possible fit to the WikiLeaks case, the law has apparently never been used to prosecute anyone for receiving classified information. Then again, there's a first time for everything.
Another federal law makes it a crime to retain classified information that was obtained by improperly accessing it on government computers. The law applies only to the person who actually gets it from a computer, and does not directly criminalize retaining classified information that was obtained by someone else. But some legal experts think it could be used to charge someone who's an accessory after the fact.
That brings us back to the espionage laws, which the government is clearly considering.
One of the espionage statutes makes it a crime to receive national defense information, knowing that it was obtained illegaly and having reason to believe that it could be used "to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Some legal experts believe Assange may have tried to inoculate himself against this law when he asked in late November if the US wanted any names blocked out of the most recent document dump.
But on November 27th the State Department sent him a letter advising him that publishing further documents would "place at risk the lives of countless innocent individuals -- from journalists to human rights activists and bloggers to soldiers to individuals providing information to further peace and security." Publication would also, the letter said, place military operations at risk and jeopardize US relations with other countries. The letter was clearly intended to defeat any subsequent argument by Assange that he had no idea the material could be used to injure the US.
It's worth noting that the letter, signed by Harold Koh, the State Department's legal adviser, also said that the cables WikiLeaks was about to release were obtained illegally and that "as long as WikiLeaks holds such material, the violation of the law is ongoing," a clear indication that some government lawyers have concluded that WikiLeaks is violating the espionage laws merely by retaining the cables.
The government faces a considerable obstacle with the espionage laws: they've never before been used to charge a recipient who publishes classified information. But a senior Justice Department official says the government may be preparing to argue that it's not going after newspapers that actually publish the information in the traditional sense. It would instead claim that WikiLeaks is functioning as a kind of storehouse, gathering and maintaining the material in clear violation of the law.
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FR:That brings us back to the espionage laws, which the government is clearly considering
Um, would that be President Obama's birth certificate?
At least Julian Assange is jail without bail. What about the solider and his Lady GaGa disk?
I emphatically support Mr. Assange, but to accelerate the world's passage into the New Age of more open governing, I would not be against any rigged justice that the US wishes to produce for him. During the transition to the New Age we can expect the masses to produce a deep, rumbling, nearly endless explosion of insights and anger over how the world is really run for the benefit of its fiscal owners. Of course the current elite, that thrives on its expert knowledge of military and commercial processes, does not want the new era, but it can not be stopped. The New Age can only be slowed in its arrival.
Therefore, the more extreme that Mr. Assage's persecution appears to be to his exponentially growing band of followers ... the better. Even the death of Mr. Assange is a small price to pay for the New Age's quickening. I do not wish for his death, but as a practical strategist, I can see advantages in it... btw, so can his thoughtful opponents, so his termination by them will be avoided if possible. Secretary Gates immediately understood that we are entering a New Age, and his first response was to advise global leaders to rapidly adapt, however the politics of the "transition" need to honored. So be it. The globe is in danger under the current regime. Let us hurry on.
I couldn't have said that nearly as well as you have. Thanks!
For our politicans to even imply, nevermind suggest, that even though someone isnt breaking the law, they can get creative and twist it here and there to make it apply or listen to another say "if there arent any laws that apply, lets make so" like criminal laws can be passed and applied retro-actively.
While we have some politicians attempting to be 'creative" so as to punish "Freedom of the Press" and "Freedom of Speech", we have another one leading the revolt against the US Constitution (by way of the First Amendment) with his weapon of choice being the Patriot Act to pressure and intimidate companies so that any all resources are cut off to the journalist exercising his right to Freedom of the Press. Turn the clock back 150 years and that is the equivalent of denying a newpaper its paper and ink deliveries.
Something very dark and very sinister is lurking behind the fears and chaos created by the impending next release ... and it has NOTHING to do with US Afghani, Iraqi or diplomatic files. It is something that has our politicians scrambling senselessly to stop the messenger while hiding behind "classified" documents as the excuse to silence a human being from exersizing their right of Free Speech and Freedom of the Press. The coming news MUST be as serious as Mr Assange says it would be ... otherwise our politicans both domestically and internationally would not be scrambling as hard as they are, as desparately searching for something as they are or as fearful as they are.
Oh for the good ol' days when they shot spies, asked questions later. Someone probably told the judge to deny bail just to protect this idiot from himself. Otherwise someone might forget that the CIA doesn't assassinate people anymore.
I can only hope that President Obama and Attorney-General Holder have the competence to put Julian Assange out of business.
How much confidence in the Administration do you have, First Readers?
On what basis?
One of my favorite scenes in cinema history is from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Butch and Sundance are sitting on the edge of a cliff and the only way they can escape is to jump off the cliff into the river below.
Sundance is afraid to jump. Asked why, he tells Butch it's because he can't swim. Butch laughs and says, "The fall will probably kill you!"
DN-
drive-by has "plenty of confidence".
I really hope drive-by has this one right.
I have plenty of confidence.
Just because the people that are anti-anything this Admin does, and constantly say the admin is stupid and incompetent, does not make it so. Not by a long shot. For God's sake, people- these are the SAME people that thought the country ought to be in the hands of Palin and McCain!
It's that simple, folks.
Actually, drive-by...
I enjoyed President Obama's press conference enormously, and agreed with his decision to compromise with the opposition.
How about you?
Maybe, for once...
We can agree that President Obama's decision to compromise wasn't "stupid and incompetent" at all?
Bi-partisanship...ya gotta love it!
Read what I think of it in the 'First Thoughts' thread.
Let's 'hide and watch', shall we?
And as far as this Assange dude is concernded, it might suprise you to hear this from a 'libtard' like me, but I think the guy needs to be put in the electric chari or in front of a firing squad. ( And that's just for the rape charge.....)
Hallelujah, drive-by...
At long last...we agree.
And...I don't engage in the use of epithets or name-calling.
"Teabagger" or "libtard"...it's all about being unable to express an opinion in a civil manner.
I don't understand why he hasn't already been charged with espionage. He's in a NATO country, releasing secret documents from a NATO member. Didn't they bother to write a law about that? (In the UK.)
Why does the US think it would have jurisdiction over a non-citizens actions in a foreign country, as this article is suggesting. That's ridiculous. Unless it was tied to a NATO law/treaty, as I describe above.
Sweden will not extradite for charges that are not crimes under Sweden law and Extradition may not be granted for military or political offences.
even if some how the U.S. got him into a court, I think they would need to show that the material had a real impact and brought harm to a person or group of people that would of not seen this type of action taken agenst them if this had not been leaked.
but even if there is a case that could be made. this just looks like nothing more than preventative measures. There have been warrants for arrest made for dick cheney & G.W in parts of the world and we all know how much of a difference that made.
Now we know why Bush and Cheney only went on foreign trips to Texas.... :)
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." (George Orwell)
It's not so much a matter of telling the truth, but how he obtained the information.
It is hardly about how he obtained the information. Classified information is given to the media all day everyday.
It is, much more, a matter of what they , in turn, choose to do with it.
If they contact the authorities and tell them what they have, and seek clearances and heed redaction instructions they can then print what they now know, and allow the public to see the world through a redacted prism. The truth is thereby distorted, even by our so called truth tellers.
I say, first we hang him,
Then, we poison him,
Then, we beat him,
Then, we knife him,
Then, we shoot him,
THEN, we dress him up like a hallibut, and send him on over to Sarah's place.
You forgot to have him drawn & quartered, but I like the hallibut idea. LOL.... :)
I love it. You meant for Christmas??
Maybe we should reinstitute the medevil practice of putting spies heads on pikes. Start with Assange and his Army soldier accomplice. Might have a real deterrant effect on people thinking they can get away with theft of US property.
You fool.
Assange is not a U.S. citizen, and did not take an oath or sign an agreement to protect classified information. But the U.S. Army private did, as well as anyone who leaked these documents. U.S. personnel who gave away this information are traitors, and should be severely punished.
Shoot the messenger?
No, just the thief.
To all Americans who think prosecuting Assange is right: SCREW YOU and YOUR POXY LAWS!! You are a bunch of retards. It will serve you right when you have lost all your liberties and the Constitution was a distant memory. YOU STUPID FOOLS. Don't you realise what is happening here? You are policing yourselves and your children into an Orwellian nightmare. You must as well be building your own cages. WAKE UP FOR GOD'S SAKE. Your government is lying to you. Does that not bother you?
Amen and thank you Andrew UK for what's looking like the only piece of sane thinking on this thread.
The USG is guilty of war crimes: we now know Obama helped obstruct the investigation. The cables clearly reveal we bribe EVERYONE when we're not busy spying on them, at the behest of the Sec of State. We've thrown our $ around to render a non binding Climate action. We stopped Germany from issuing warrants for CIA agents who renditioned a citizen of theirs who was completely innocent...course that didn't stop us from torturing him.
And through out all of this we hear the cries of those guilty finger pointing as Assange and Wikileaks and there's nothing but crickets chirping when we bring up their crimes.
Truth is we DON'T have a law to prosecute him because journalism and whistleblowing shouldn't be prosecutable. And if we grandfather some crazy law in to deal with this, we better round up the 5 news orgs that are also publishing this stuff...oh, that's right, here comes Sen. Joe Lieberman already calling for that. The reaction of the powerful people in this country has been swift and VERY telling of just how Orwellian a society we've become. Funny how they could shut his financing down in a couple of days but they're powerless against the Banks and Wall Street.
Telling indeed. Those of you buying the Gov't line here are compliant, wussified traitors to the ideology of what it REALLY MEANS to be 'an American'. Land of the free my A.
You are both right. It amazes me how easily our citizens can be convinced to willingly give up their rights. Heck, they will run to the powers that be and beg to have their rights taken away just for the illusion of safety.
Love it or Leave it and Join Mr. UK.
You have all the freedoms you need. You are here on this vine bad-mouthing the government of your country aren't you, and aren't you also bad-mouthing its citizens? We then you have more freedoms than most countries.
You are standing up for a thief and someone who would risk American lives for money and his own self gain, not to mention he has been (accused) of sex crimes. Oh, I know you will say that is probably a "conspiracy" by some government. "They are throwing the red Herring". Either way he is a criminal not some hero whistle blower who is righting some wrong, duh,,,,.
duh.....indeed.
He is accused of the sex crime of being unwilling to get a std test after a condom broke during consentual sex.
He didn't steal the information, it was given to him. The government still possesses the original documents.
Cheney and Bush both have killed 6000 Americans for their own personal gain, (Haliburton and Carlyle Group), but you're so brainwashed you can't see it.
Paul, the accusers state that it was NOT consensual.
Being in possession of stolen goods is illegal even if you did not steal them first, if you know they are stolen.
This has nothing to do with Cheney and Bush, duh. And my brain is fine thank you. The article is about a thief and wikileak, not past presidents and vice presidents.
The government still possesses the files. Your stolen property analogy doesn't fit.
the std was not consensual, the sex was with consent.
Your bitch was that the leak of the information, to the public, might get Americans or our allies killed.
Do you not grasp that we, the American public, are NOT supposed to be the last to know? How do you know that this information wasn't shared with Embassies all around the globe before Assange put it up on Wikileaks? You don't, and you likely never will. The U.S. government will never acknowledge that. Besides, just like Bush and Cheney, it's all in the past, we should just let it go. You can't undo what's been done, so why prosecute. Right?
Paul,
Classified material is only to be seen by those with the clearance. NOFORN is not to be seen by foreign nationals. Having the files in your possession does no good if they have been copied or seen by those without the proper clearance. And when they(wikileak) continue to produce them after they have been told that they were illegally obtained from that traitor, then that makes Assange a traitor or spy or criminal also.
Without a law there is no crime and in the cyber world there are many unethical things that are becoming law. It takes the wrong to make the law to make it right.
So you think that as a people we NEED to know everything that the government does as it does it? Do you think you are that smart? This is not in the past it is NOW and ongoing. What would you do IF you knew about all the stuff the gov does? IF they needed to kill some of those crackpot leaders in say N.Korea or Iran and you read about it in the planning stages, what would you do? Frankly it is above yours and my pay-grade. And I say that in assumption by your previous posts. No offense.
Once again Bush and Cheney are definitely in the past and you need to let them go..... But, if I go out and kill someone that is in the past, should it just be let go because it is already done? I don't get where you are coming from?
Doesn't NYT v United States establish Wikileaks's actions as legal?
Doesn't apply to stolen property
Doesn't the government still possess and own the file and the information? How is it "stolen property"? Is it intellectual property? Does it have a patent or copyright? Are you trying to convict him of copyright law violations?
I find it rather amusing who many US citizen are all too happy to sacrifice their civil rights they are so proud of as soon as they seem bothersom to them. Land of the free? Maybe once, land of angsty citizen giving up everything for security today.
1. Apparently some people here need to take a refresher on what "rule of law", "freedom of speech", "checks and balances", and a few other terms mean. Government exists to protect the rights of individuals, not to create and enforce its own rights at the expense of those same individuals.
2. Turning this into a republican vs. democrat or liberal vs. conservative thing shows way too much reliance on pre-chewed news. Do research. Get as close to the source as possible.
3. There's a world of difference between espionage and publishing information from whistle-blowers who want to expose abuses to public scrutiny. Specifically, espionage (aka spying) is done in secret, and for the purpose of tilting the balance of power in favor of one country or another.
4. We have a right to know how our employees (they're called public servants, after all) conduct themselves with our money and other resources. The reason that the US government and many other governments are reacting so strongly against this release is that it contains information that will embarrass them.
5. The US government is still wracking its collective brains to find something they can legally charge Assange or Wikileaks with. Even if he's guilty of crimes that caused damage, if there's not a law to prosecute him under, he goes free. That's what the rule of law means, that you can't arbitrarily label someone an enemy and then prosecute without a preexisting law that was violated and showing of harm.
Re your number 5... tell that to the several "guests" we have in Cuba.
Another good post, thanks.
Whatever happened to the USA's sacred cry "freedom of speech".
Or come to that Mrs Clinton stating how freedom of information was a good thing that strengthened nations? Don't say she has forgotten what she said only last January about how the freedom of information on the internet strengthens democracy and makes governments more accountable.
Freedom of information was all such a good idea in January - now Mrs C is upset that the world knows that she instructed her secret service to spy on UN officials, along with lots more underhand and behind the scenes dealings.
Lots of good material on Wikileaks for the film industry - only now it will be documentary not fantasy.
I emphatically support Mr. Assange, but to accelerate the world's passage into the New Age of more open governing, I would not be against any rigged justice that the US wishes to produce for him. During the transition to the New Age we can expect the masses to produce a deep, rumbling, nearly endless explosion of insights and anger over how the world is really run for the benefit of its fiscal owners. Of course the current elite, that thrives on its expert knowledge of military and commercial processes, does not want the new era, but it can not be stopped. The New Age can only be slowed in its arrival.
Therefore, the more extreme that Mr. Assage's persecution appears to be to his exponentially growing band of followers ... the better. Even the death of Mr. Assange is a small price to pay for the New Age's quickening. I do not wish for his death, but as a practical strategist, I can see advantages in it... btw, so can his thoughtful opponents, so his termination by them will be avoided if possible. Secretary Gates immediately understood that we are entering a New Age, and his first response was to advise global leaders to rapidly adapt, however the politics of the "transition" need to honored. So be it. The globe is in danger under the current regime. Let us hurry on.
Civics lesson 101: U.S. v. New York Times Co. re: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. Vietnam and the Nixon administration. Remember?
Best option is to give him an all-expenses paid tropical vacation - to Guantanamo Bay.
testing new laptop.
Test SAT.
Just because some of you think this material would make a good movie, or that embarrassing the governments for spying is cool does not make that idiot any less a thief.
Freedom of information is one thing but leaking things that could get our servicemen and women killed, and you laugh about it and make this flake a hero. Get serious.
This is not about 1st Amendment rights, this is about national security and the way governments conduct business. It's like when you were a kid,,, you did not want to know that you mom and dad were having oral sex but they probably were, well the governments conduct covert operations to keep crazy leaders like those in IRAN and N. Korea from Nuking someone, but you do not know about it. You would not think it was funny to walk in on your parents however that is what wikileaker did. But he has done worse, he took pictures and are showing all your friends. (example)
Now that may be too complicated for some of you,,,,and too simple for others but this is really no laughing matter.
I think since he released material after they told him that lives were at stake if he released more and that the information was obtained illegally that he should spend the rest of his life in Leavenworth(sp) in hard labor. Thanks,
Yellowcake from NIGER, please!
National Security is complicated. The leaking of information makes it more so. It's a tough job to do right and not be tempted into short cuts.
When they fail miserably to keep us safe, you oppose investigations.
When they are exposed through leaks by whistleblowers you ignore the exposed and silence the messenger.
Paul,
I neither respect the media or put much stock in it. In my opinion they have had to much access to information concerning troop movements, military business and political dealings.
We have a Representative government that is corrupt and full of crooks and like you I would like to see most of them in jail. That said, I would not like to see the system shut down overnight for the sake of some crackpot media hound spouting his "1st amendment" right to show the world classified and noforn materials.
I spent 24 years in the military and held many clearances and know what they mean and the consequences for that information falling into the wrong hands.
I would imagine when you say you that you are talking about the people of the US and not me personally because you do not know beans about me.
Now I don't know if you are a left-wing ACLU socialist gay liberal or just someone who thinks that it is ok to spread our secrets all over the world and let IRAN, N.Korea, Afgan, Taliban, and all the others who do not wish us well to read them so they can kill our troops and harm us in any way they can.
Either way, I am up for discussion as long as you stick to the topic and keep it intelligent. Thanks,
No I meant, you.
I don't have to know you, to believe that I know what you think. You are too quick to reveal bonafides which actually don't help your argument.
It is the FIRST Amendment for a reason.
Our ability to OPERATE as the world's only military Super Power is complicated by leaks of information. If Operational Effectiveness and preparedness are compromised by our own inability to keep the necessary information free from penetration by "hackers" then our true enemies have it way too easy. What gets our people killed unnecessarily is poor "spycraft" and counterespionage. Put the blame where it belongs. But, of course, in the military, that never happens.
Paul,
I tried to keep it calm and productive, however you are too full of anger and radical thoughts to stay on track so I will thank you for playing and hope you find a release for all that frustration before it causes you harm.
Good luck with your quest to fix the world by condemning Cheney and Bush with your words.
Believe what you want about me or the world, we do care. :)
Cut and run, not so COOL-hand. They'll give you a Medal at the Bush/Cheney Library.
Since the USA hasn't wanted to prosecute all the media outlets that have also published the materials, it seems like they want to do an end-run around clearly established US law to hit Assange when they should be trying to find the person actually leaking the classified information if they were serious about putting a stop to classified information getting out. This actually seems more like headhunting for someone who has publicly embarrassed a number of national and international bigwigs.
All Wikileaks did was to publish info passed to them. If you don't like it the problem that needs fixing is within the USA and its so called security systems.
It was someone within your own country who passed the info from a "security system" that leaks like a rusty bucket.