Joint Manipulation

Stick to your guns; Mr. President don’t compromise. Never go backswords. your supporters will get you to 2012. Go forward Mr. President don’t let this quaked up, “Hell Naw”, republican, minority sabotage yours and the peoples accomplishments. They run nothing but their mouths. The nerve of Eric Cantor, (aka 2012 contender) my lawd, to even utter that you compromise during the lame duck session. No sabotages, no repeals, no insults, about Obama care. Let the Republican,/Tea Baggers know it’s not demeaning to have Obama care; I’m proud we have Obama care because you and the left care about 30 million people having access to healthcare in lieu of none or the choice of going bankrupt to pay for healthcare. If anything let them know more people want universal healthcare and you will revise it. Move forward on the debt ceiling, do not preserve the Bush tax cuts for the rich, do give tax cuts for the middle class, do not cut benefits for seniors or let governors like Texas’ Rick Perry told Fox News that states should “be given the opportunity to opt-out of the Medicaid program we are looking at today”

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/11/09/perry-texas-medicaid/

Get a moratorium on foreclosures. Let the Republican/ Tea Baggers know it is the government’s job to create jobs according to the Hewitt Humphrey Act . concentrate on the letting creation of government jobs and infrastructure spending. Repudiate the absurd Tenther’s” view of congressional power false claim s that the government’s regulatation “economic activity. law is unconstitutional: US don’t need 50 unequal states. This is the United States of America.

The right-wing has no idea what is in the Constitution they so embrace. We not shall stop for tea. There is more coffee in coffee urn brewing than a cup of weak tea!!! That, I believe is the left’s Call Of Duty:

no jo bo bo I’ll let you elucidate on “quantitative easing” -- the Fed will buy $600 billion worth of government bonds in a bid to make loans cheaper and get Americans to spend more

Responding to Islamophobia

: Today, the forces of intolerance direct their venom toward Muslim Americans. FOX NOISE FINALLY discovered Bush used similar terrorism rhetoric as Obama--and attacks Obama for not crediting Bush. I believe Fox Noise was more upset about the secret Muslim Handskake.

Fellow Travelers:

Soon to be friends?:

Those of us who come to fora such as Newsvine come for a variety of reasons. The posters I want to know, come to learn and come to persuade.

We all know about the others: The bomb throwers (trolls) who come in and throw a talking point at us and then run like hell. You offer proof that destroys the talking point, and they come back with another false assertion or they refuse to respond.

There is the group that will not accept any new information. It runs counter to the dogma or ideology they either swallowed uncritically or have constructed around a single piece of information, disinformation, or misinformation - the "don't confuse me with facts" crowd. "Oh sure, thanks for the link, that's a - left-wing, right-wing, liberal, conservative, commie, pick the name, etc. - site. You can't believe anything they say."

There's the folks with their brilliant taunts: Obummer, Boner, libtard, republithugs, etc. Are you kidding?

The right-wingers are undeniably the worst. They firmly believe they are the true and pure Republicans, eschewing RINO's and anything to the left of Vlad the Impaler. They would walk through fire in a gasoline suit to vote against someone they hate. They are God-fearing Christians, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

The left-wingers aren't so bad, primarily because they don't post. My explanation is that they are too busy not being busy. Holding an opinion is heavy lifting for these guys. Typing is serious labor. Some times they can actually be moved to vote in a Presidential Election, "That's all there is, right?" They are very hazy on the notion of local government, "Don't sewage systems just happen?"

These folks are going to vote either Democrat or Republican - nothing is going to move them. Nothing is going to change their thinking because they don't think. In the math world of equations and the like, they're a constant.

Here's my proposition. Elections are actually decided by a relatively small group of people. The true "Independents" - the true variables in the equation. Don't confuse the genuine "Independents" with the self-identified clowns who claim to be independent, but in fact vote based on which candidate promises them the least pain and/or greatest gain. They voted for Democrat "Change" in 2008 and they voted for Republican "Change the Change" in 2010. Can anyone guess what we'll get in 2012, when once again we will be reminded of the adage, "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Really, they're the pigs at the trough. (Did anyone notice how that very mavericky Tea Party stalwart, Rand Paul, has already lined up for his pork? This is the guy who told us in his victory speech, how he was going to tell Washington what was what.)

What if WE were really serious about change? What if WE said Newsvine is as good a forum as any to start to actually bring solutions to the attention of our less-than-stellar legislators? What if we were courteous and civil as we brought our ideas here, however unconventional they might seem? What if we decided that Wednesday, the 10th of November is the perfect day to start this idea rolling? "Why Wednesday, the 10th?" you ask. Because that's today, and we don't have time to waste.

No talking points, just defensible ideas. No name calling, no taunts. Congress cannot or will not do it. This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. We're the people. I think we could actually show the way. Is this a good idea?

My apologies: This is a re-post. I put it in the wrong place the first time.

What now for the White House?

A good first step would be to acknowledge reality.

President Obama doesn't have a communication problem with an electorate that doesn't "understand" his accomplishments or his agenda.

Just the opposite, really.

The electorate understood perfectly and reacted appropriately.

President Obama and most of the Democratic Congressional leadership are experiencing comprehension difficulties...not the voters.

David,

I responded to the other post you made...

You had me until

The right-wingers are undeniably the worst.

The left can be, and in some cases most definitely are, worse than the right, so there is some deniability in there.

I like to think I am a true independent and have an open mind, but when one side predominantly throws out the taunts (I know I'm just as guilty as anyone else), I start to think they don't have any substance. Hell, I've even had retorts to my posts to the likes of, "This isn't a game...", but nothing of substance to back it up. If you want to convince me that your point of view is worth considering, say something more than the equivalent of, "So-and-So is a doo doo head."

My biggest gripe with the dems as a whole is that they think taking from me and giving to someone who doesn't want to put forth the effort is somehow "fair", yet those are the same people who couldn't be bothered to vote last week.

My biggest gripe on here is that far too many people cut and paste the same long diatribes day after day. It makes me think there is no original thought, just spouting the same old talking points in the hopes that one day someone actually pays attention. And then there is the back patting over the diatribes, "Good post, blah blah" like cutting and pasting takes any thought at all.

Beverly,

Responding to Islamophobia

: Today, the forces of intolerance direct their venom toward Muslim Americans. FOX NOISE FINALLY discovered Bush used similar terrorism rhetoric as Obama--and attacks Obama for not crediting Bush. I believe Fox Noise was more upset about the secret Muslim Handskake.

Where's the change we were promised? Obama campaigned on dong things differently, and yet he is doing and saying the EXACT same thing as his predecessor. Yeah Fox News is a bit out in left field on this one, but you miss the point by not addressing that the president hasn't changed all that much from the one you villify so much.

U.S. Navy Disabled Veteran- Retired

I agree that all U.S. Congressmen should know what programs are still in existence and which are not.

My plan for reducing the deficit is as follows. Extend all middle class tax cuts to include those making over 250.000 for one year. Now MANDATE that EVERY, (with the exception of Social Security Department) governmental agency will be cut 10%. No exceptions for Defense or Medicare. Over the next 1 year, EVERY government department or agency will be audited to determine where the departments overlap. Where duplication of efforts is found, that duplication and those jobs will be eliminated. Freeze Federal Government hiring for 5 years. Positions that are available due to retirement will not be filled.

If after the audit, and jobs are eliminated if there is money saved from the audit, extend the tax cuts for earners above 250,000 for another year.

Raise the Social Security retirement age for those born after 1989 to 70 years old.

You stated that even if Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Emergency Contingency Fund were to be cut they accounted for less than one-half of one % of the budget. We have to quit looking at things this way. If we cut 10% of 1000 dollars, that’s 100.00, but if there are 15, 000 areas in which 10% can be cut (even if you only cut 1,000.000. from an individual department) that adds up to be a significant savings.

Family’s are having to look at their budgets making decisions as to what to cut. Many families cut their cable phone bill, and entertainment bills. Sure the cutting the cell phone bill will only save me 100.00 a month, but if I cut the cable bill too that saves me 75 a month. Cut out lunches at work and take my lunch, that’ll save me, 200 a month, wow before long I’ve saved 375 a month. We have to start looking at the federal budget in the same way. Too many times we hear, “oh that’ll only save 100,000.000 that’s just a drop in the bucket.” We have to start adding those drops together to reduce the deficit.

I know I’ll be called names and made fun of for my plan. BUT I don’t care. At least I’m trying to

I agree that all U.S. Congressmen should know what programs are still in existence and which are not.

My plan for reducing the deficit is as follows. Extend all middle class tax cuts to include those making over 250.000 for one year. Now MANDATE that EVERY, (with the exception of Social Security Department) governmental agency will be cut 10%. No exceptions for Defense or Medicare. Over the next 1 year, EVERY government department or agency will be audited to determine where the departments overlap. Where duplication of efforts is found, that duplication and those jobs will be eliminated. Freeze Federal Government hiring for 5 years. Positions that are available due to retirement will not be filled.

If after the audit, and jobs are eliminated if there is money saved from the audit, extend the tax cuts for earners above 250,000 for another year.

Raise the Social Security retirement age for those born after 1989 to 70 years old.

You stated that even if Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Emergency Contingency Fund were to be cut they accounted for less than one-half of one % of the budget. We have to quit looking at things this way. If we cut 10% of 1000 dollars, that’s 100.00, but if there are 15, 000 areas in which 10% can be cut (even if you only cut 1,000.000. from an individual department) that adds up to be a significant savings.

Family’s are having to look at their budgets making decisions as to what to cut. Many families cut their cable phone bill, and entertainment bills. Sure the cutting the cell phone bill will only save me 100.00 a month, but if I cut the cable bill too that saves me 75 a month. Cut out lunches at work and take my lunch, that’ll save me, 200 a month, wow before long I’ve saved 375 a month. We have to start looking at the federal budget in the same way. Too many times we hear, “oh that’ll only save 100,000.000 that’s just a drop in the bucket.” We have to start adding those drops together to reduce the deficit.

I know I’ll be called names and made fun of for my plan. BUT I don’t care. At least I’m trying to

Please excuse the fact that my post is duplicated. Somehow it got copied twice into the same post. The last few words should be I'm am trying to come up with solutions for our problems.

Chef Darrell;

When I copy and paste an article it is only to validate where my opinion came from. You can always go read the entire article and create your own opinion. Opinions are nothing more than expressing a personal feeling about a subject. Everybody on this board is entitled to those opinions and if they want to post and article or an excerpt from that article I see nothing wrong with that. In fact I would encourage it, because it allows me and others reading the posts, to go and review the same article and sometimes it does change my outlook.

To my knowledge this does not violate the CoH as long as we disclose where the comments originated. If people use them and try to present them as their words, I would have a problem with that.

We all have the right to post opinions, validate them with an excerpt or URL to an article etc. What we do not have a right to do is create our facts that have no basis at all in reality. This is my argument against places like FOX, Rush and any media outlet that create their own facts to try and justify an agenda. Example: the 2 Billion dollar field trip Of President Obama that was an outright lie.

Janet,

You posted this yesterday and have some interesting ideas but you didn’t answer my comment so here it is again.

Does that mean that the new incoming Congress members cannot hire a staff and does that hold for the President’s staff even if there is a new President in 2013 – given your 5 year ban? Oh, and does that 5 years hold for all service members – you know the ones that protect us and have almost a 20% turnover every year – after all they are government employees?

This is my argument against places like FOX, Rush and any media outlet that create their own facts to try and justify an agenda. Example: the 2 Billion dollar field trip Of President Obama that was an outright lie

If I'm not mistaken FOX & Rush still haven't retracted the bullsh!t!

Or NJNB either for that matter :0)-

Funny how the folks who were so determined to "take their country back" and "return to the Constitution" keep asking what the President and other Democrats are going to do. They must have had a plan, what is it? How will they cut taxes and reduce the deficit? How will they "bring accountability to Washington"? How will they get read of earmarks while taking advantage of them? I don't remember them saying they were going to fix everything by doing nothing and continuing to blame the Democrats.

And we wonder why the federal employees love their jobs, because we pay for them. In fact, I am gonna pull and Navy, copy & paste:)

The number of federal workers earning $150,000 or more a year has soared tenfold in the past five years and doubled since President Obama took office, a USA TODAY analysis finds.

The fast-growing pay of federal employees has captured the attention of fiscally conservative Republicans who won control of the U.S. House of Representatives in last week’s elections. Already, some lawmakers are planning to use the lame-duck session that starts Monday to challenge the president’s plan to give a 1.4% across-the-board pay raise to 2.1 million federal workers. ..

•Government-wide raises. Top-paid staff have increased in every department and agency. The Defense Department had nine civilians earning $170,000 or more in 2005, 214 when Obama took office and 994 in June.

•Long-time workers thrive. The biggest pay hikes have gone to employees who have been with the government for 15 to 24 years. Since 2005, average salaries for this group climbed 25% compared with a 9% inflation rate.

In 2005, wage earners at the $150K level and above comprised 0.4% of the federal workforce. They now comprise 3.9% of the workforce.

What does that mean in real numbers? In 2005, only 7,420 federal employees make $150K. Today, that number has grown to 82,034, roughly double what it was at the end of 2008. Nor is that just inflationary growth across an artificial line. In 2005, only 2,852 federal workers made more than $160,000; now it’s 44,898. Five years ago, less than a thousand workers made over $180K, but today that number has increased by more than 20 times to 16,912 workers.

This would be problematic even if the country had experienced boom times over the last five years, and especially over the last two. But that has obviously not been the case — or at least not the case inside of the Beltway bubble. Given the tough labor market for workers over that period, the government should have been in a better position to negotiate wages to decrease the cost of its workforce, which gets paid by the sweat of the taxpayers’ collective brow. Instead, they have become profligate with our money.

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/11/10/federal-bureaucrats-earning-150k-up-tenfold-in-past-five-years/

And it did not start with Obama, it started with Bush. Everyone wants cuts, well, lets start cutting. I don't think we should take all of their salaries, but we should cut them by at least 5%, freeze federal pay until the unemployment rate is under 5%, and not rehire when people retire or lose their federal jobs. We should just transfer people from one area to another, because we all know that some programs have too many workers, and others don't have enough.

I am for cutting the pay of non-military personnel, not our hard working, in the line of fire, soldiers, who should probably get a 5% increase in pay.

USNDV-R,

The problem I have with it is that you post the same incredibly long posts day after day. It's almost like you're looking for an award for how many cumulative lines are in your posts. Even today you have (at least) 2 posts that start off with "I posted this before...here it is again, in its entirety".

Can't recall saying anything about CoH. Just that a large number of posts are pretty much entire copies from thinkprogress, so your "opinions" aren't really your (or the authors) own, just a rehash of someone elses.

I don't know how many times I can say it, but I don't watch Fox news, MSNBC, or listen to any of the talking heads (right or left). They're all idiots, plain and simple. Keith Olbermann was good on sportscenter and he should have stayed there. The rest of them have no real discernable talent but to rabble rouse and collect a large paycheck.

It's funny. Chef Darrel, I don't see you posting anything that can REFUTE what US NAVY posted. All I see is your whining and complaining about the length.

So what. Big Deal. US NAVY has the right to post whatever he wants to on here as long as he is not violating the CoH.

Just as you do.

Or is it that you CANNOT refute what he posted because there is NO DEFENCE?

Chef:

I posted a response in the other thread. Frankly, I'm sorry I even bothered to float the idea. I am in full agreement that a link is preferable to cut and paste. I really like summaries with the link.

David,

As do I. I would be more tempted to read a summary and if I am interested, check out the link.

I like the idea, but looking around here, I don't see anyone else feeling the same. Just the opposite it seems, it seems to incite those prone to it to ramp up ad hominems.

Pietro,

Most of the time I don't even bother to read. As soon as I see it's USNDV-R I scroll down. As for the no defense, it's someones opinion, and the opinion holder has a right to it. I don't have to agree with it, nor do I have to try to change their mind. The opposite of a strong opinion isn't an opposing opinion, it's INDIFFERENCE. That's pretty much how I feel here. I'm not going to go round and round in a "my opinoin is better than yours" spat, that's fruitless.

Example, you think republicans are stupid (from what I've read from you, that's pretty much dead on). Ok, you have a right to think that, and I have the same right not to try to refute it, or even care.

Janet

Many years ago I worked for the government and they had a RIF going when I quit to start my family. My job was not filled when I left.(My Grandkids laugh at how importent my job was.) The one thing that I would add is that most of the day to day jobs have been contracted out and there would have to be a freeze and reduction put on those jobs as well. Most of the cuts will just be small compared to the grand total of the debt but we have to start somewhere.

Chef Darrell - The posts that I see - even the one today from Big Bear - highlight what the poster is trying to say. If you don't agree, that's fine. If you disagree, then you voice your opinion with a rebuttal post.

You just got on here and was whining about how long US NAVY's posts were.

You are right- if you don't like it, don't read it. move on.

And for the record, I have NEVER said that I thought Republicans are stupid. I have consistently said that the GOP LEADERSHIP is inept. You cannot provide one link where I said Republicans are stupid, can you?

It is interesting that you would think that from my posts, but then again, you don't really ready the posts, do you?

Janet,

Thanks for offering a constructive discussion of ideas of what we need to do to get US back on track. The most obvious problem we have as a nation right now is massive deficit spending. So any solution that is going to be viable must address the spending. I have noticed that the discussion from Washington hardly ever, if at all, includes cutting our aid/spending in other countries. I agree that we should cut all of our domestic spending across the board. But we must also cut and eliminate the money we are giving to other countries. How about reducing that by 50% less than the current levels (not 50% less than the expected increases) for the next 5 years. We can tell the other countries that the aid/spending/bribery, etc.... must be eliminated and or reduced to allow US to get our fiscal house in order. Which in turn will have a positive impact on the global economy. Some of the aid/bribery should be eliminated in it's entirety, as we are unable to control it's use and it often winds up in the hands of the wrong individuals and because it is not achieving the desired goal within a reasonable period of time.

At the same time we need to make free trade also be fair trade by taking recognition of the fact that ourcompetitors are not held to the same standards as US manufactures, etc.. when it comes to employee compensation packages, production and safety standards. And as a remedy to that, until such time as the competitor nations raise their standards to meet or approximate ours, we will have to place tariffs on their goods/services to level the playing field. At the same time, here at home we need to take a serious look at those very same aspects and ask our selves where we can adjust our current compensation and production standards, regulatory requirements, etc... to meet the realities of the global competitive market place. It should not be, for example, that workers are receiving, in many instances, automatic increases in their compensation, year in and year out, for doing the same job they are already being fairly compensated for while the companies bottom line remains stagnant or decreases. Regulatory burdensshould not be such that production and safety regulations are constantly being ratcheted up, often for little or no return in terms of improvement, versus the cost of implementation and the effect on product price. Regulatory reform should be taken with the approach of balancing the need for ever increasing standards versus keeping our manufacturing base, products and services viable in the global competitive market.

Now that the voters have spoken,in my opinion very clearly about their opposition to the policies and practices in Congress(on both sides of the aisle) it is time for the partisan posters on here and elsewhere to stop taking pot shots at each other and our elected officials and engage in a constructive dialogue of exchanging ideas to fix our problems. We can not expect our leaders in Washington to do so if we ourselves are not able to do so. Because in reality is not Washington that is going to provide the leadership and ideas, but all of US that must lead them.

Dennis,

My plan is a work in progress and you certainly raised good points. Of course incoming Congressmen should have staff. But it can probably be cut in half pretty easily. Their wages should not exceed any other administrative type (clerical) job in the D.C. private sector. If someone selected by a Congressman as a staff member doesn’t want to work for those wages, they don’t have to take the job. There are plenty of people who would consider such a position an honor.

As far as the military goes, I don’t have a problem cutting the number of military personal by 10%, the remaining military wages would not be be cut. I retired from the Air Force in 2001 and during my 20 years of service, the number of personal was cut a couple of times. We just did more with less. The military is an expert at determining which career fields can be cut without impacting combat readiness.

Chef Darrell

Where's the change we were promised? Obama campaigned on dong things differently, and yet he is doing and saying the EXACT same thing as his predecessor. Yeah Fox News is a bit out in left field on this one, but you miss the point by not addressing that the president hasn't changed all that much from the one you villify so much.

Navy gave you some very pertinent information.

Would you provide the links [not Fox's] that deny what the President has done or is working on.

First of all, Fox & Friends' hypocritical attack on Obama is stunning, even for them. Now that they've spent so long conveniently forgetting that Obama's Muslim outreach efforts are completely uncontroversial, it's too late for them to feign indignation that Obama isn't giving Bush enough credit. It will be interesting to see if they continue to remember this after Bush's rehabilitation tour is over.

Second of all, Fox & Friends has no business criticizing Muslim outreach at all. Just a few weeks ago, Kilmeade said that "not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim." Twice. And this was just the latest in their campaign to bash Islam and Muslims at every opportunity.

Perhaps Our President Wouldn't Have To Continuously Reassure The Muslim World That We're Not At War With Islam, If People On FOX WOULD STOP ACTING LIKE ANTI-MUSLIM BIGOTS.

Lastly, Fox's indignation that Obama would dare to take credit for something Bush did, Obama never actually said that. All he said was that he's made it a priority, which he has, and that relations between America and the Muslim world have frayed, which they have. And moreover, Fox has relentlessly attacked Obama's and his administration's Muslim outreach efforts.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201011100014

Promises in the works...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/in-the-works/

"In just one month, the Democrats have spent more than President Bush spent in seven years on the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan and Hurricane Katrina combined."

False.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/03/mitch-mcconnell/mcconnell-v-math-math-wins/

"Over 10 years, (extending tax cuts for the wealthy) would add less to the deficit than Obama added with the stimulus in one year."

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/sep/14/george-will/george-will-says-tax-cuts-wealthy-cost-less-over-1/

To those proposing across the board cuts:

I like your idea in theory, but my problem with it is cutting spending means cutting jobs. It would do the same things as raising taxes right now would do, slow economic growth. Obviously there isn't any easy answers, and solving our deficit/debt problems will take years just as it took years (decades) to get us to this point. I'd like to think we could get by with smaller cuts and take more of a freeze all spending at current levels approach and just let federal revenues (which will always grow as long as the economy is growing) catch up, which could take a few years but by then the economy will be moving again and at that point we could start paying down the national debt as we should have done in 2001. Everything moves in cycles, and it is hard to trust politicians to do the right thing when we are in the upward swing of things, though, so that might be asking a lot.

Pietro,

Republican leaders are still republicans. A synonym for inept from dictionary.com is: —1. unskillful, bungling. 4. stupid, pointless, inane

I apologize if I mistook your railing on the republican leaderships ineptitude as more than you may or may not have intended it.

I don't read the cut and pastes with the responses (usually just a confirmation of agreement). If I want to read the original source, I will read the article.

Though, you may want to start with David Walker's post, my initial response starts there and may help with the context you seem to be missing. All I am seeing from you is that you are trying to pick a fight over my opinion.

To Big Bear's point about Federal salaries, I'd agree that it is a bit ridiculous that they continue to get the raises they do but I want to make two points. First, the reason the average federal employee makes more than the average private sector employee is because most federal jobs are as lawyers, accountants, etc where typical salaries are much higher. And second, these excessive pay increases aren't any different than what is going on in the corporate world, which is also outrageous. Using the same reasoning big banks and corporations use, (which is still lame) we need to pay them these high amounts so they don't leave to go work for the competition.

I don't actually disagree with the point excessive pay is outrageous, especially these days, but I just want to add it isn't limited to just the federal government. and you could argue: but we are the ones paying for these salaries! That is a valid point, but we are also paying for the salaries of the corporate world through higher priced goods and services.

Chef Darrell - look, I hate inacuracies more than anything else. If I am wrong (and I was wrong a few days ago when I attributed a quote to Mixed bag when it whould have been dangerfield), I come out and admit it. Publicly.

My beef with you is that you were whining about posts because they were too long. My retort was that if you read some of what was posted, the CONTENT was the important thing. If you had an issue with what was posted, then we can discuss it.

By not reading the content, you mis-represented my bashing of the GOP/Tea Party LEADERSHIP as me bashing Republicans in general. I would NOT have taken the time and the trouble to make the distinction of I thought that all Republicans are inept.

I really do not wish to - or need to - pick a fight with your opinion. Nothing will change if I did, so what's the point?

Today by the way is also the Marine Corp birth day. Happy Birth Day my fellow Devil Dogs!

Janet,

I will not call you or any other lady names but I do disagree with some of what you have posted. A families budget is far more simple than the governments. I will take a government worker to do the audit you are talking about. If you lay-off or fire that many government workers in an economy like the one we have now you will be looking at unemployment north of 13%. Yesterday I read a post here that it is time government workers felt the pain of everyone else. Is that really why we want to see them fired? Removing them from the work force would do more to harm the overall economy than it is to keep them on. I will agree a steady decrease may be effective. Promoting people to fill positions left vacant by retirement instead of new hires would be an effective way.

Please keep in mind the only things that are made transparent to the public are things the powerful and connected people (government & private) don't care about. There are so many government contracts that can be discontinued today with little adverse affect. Unfortunately, those in power don't show the public those numbers but they will make public exactly what and everyday government worker makes.

Hop on the solutions wagons - here's one - IRS audit every and I mean every politician's tax returns. Post the results of all politicians that still owe money, or submitted false tax return. Would we be surprised by how many have not paid all or nothing on their tax returns?

Pietro,

Why should I re-read the exact same stuff he posted yesterday, and the day before? The content and/or context doesn't change.

Beverly,

I must have misread what you originally posted. It looked to me that Fox was attacking the president for using the same rhetoric as his predecessor. That's the change to which I was referring.

Janet - I like it.

While I can't draw SS yet, I do believe that it should be left alone as the politicians (R & D) have consistently raided its funds since the 60's I would also support its seperation from the general fund back to a separate one with all its IOU's replaced with cash (backed by precious metals as the markets allow) + a COLA deposited into the fund each year that does include increased $$$ for food and energy. No raiding by the politicians allowed unless 2/3 majority vote by those 60 yrs old & older approve.

I would also cut the federal dept of education back a minimum 50% in funding and 90% in personnel and mandate it to just develop uniform standards for the states dept of education to follow. We keep throwing money at education and still k-12 education declines in comparison to the world. Funds not dispersed for dept of education personnel wages would be distributed to the states based on student population.

Dennis of columbus - Of course newly elected congressmen/women and senators have the right to bring on board their own staff as the incumbents staff goes by way of the incumbent. If they choose to carry over any of the incumbents staff that is there decision. Those leaving by choice can be replaced to maintain the quota after a certain lapse of time that proves that position needs to be maintained.

Pietro:

Thanks for the feedback. They do not read the context of the post but comment on it anyway. There is a plan for an intelligent dialogue. If people do not like my style then use the ignore button, I assure you that you will not hurt my feelings one bit. I am not going to change my style unless it violates the CoH. They can either read it and give me a counter arguement (prove what I said was false) or put me on ignore or just leave me alone and move on. The ball is in their court now, just like it will be in January.

But that's just it, YOU aren't saying it, someone else is and you're pasting it in here. So you're more of an aggregator than an original poster.

As far as catch phrases...

America is watching....the democrats pack up and move out of Washington.

Gore tried it with his imfamous 'lock box' .....shot down by other side

Tim in minnesota - point taken on unemployment, however doesn't the government also have to pay into some type of unemployment for its employess as well? Voila' the government already has funds set aside and those laid off can use COBRA to pay for their health insurance, just like the private sector.

As for your second post on retention. Let them leave and then promote from within where possible. Government work should be more oriented towards service to your country rather than service for pay only. When I was just a lad, government workers were low paid with few benefits, Now they have decent pay and excellent benefits that far exceed what the private sector provides.

Everyone,

I have not said that we should lay off Federal workers, I just believe that we should cut the salaries of non-military personnel by 5%, have a hiring freeze until unemployment is less than 5%, and have no raises for non-military personnel until the unemployment rate drops to less than 5%. I don't think that is unreasonable, especially when almost 10% of the population is unemployed, we have record deficits, and they seem to make twice as much as private sector workers.

Haha.. Glad to see you libs still Angry and licking your wounds. Please keep posting your lies and drivel, keep coming here day after day and spouting your mistruths. Continue to Snivel ..

Hey Did i mention that Bristol is still on Dancing with the Stars.

Janet,

I to believe there is room to cut spending, almost every department. But what people don't want to talk about is reforming Social Security.

If people are going to use Social Security as their retirement instead of the supplement it was designed to be, then we have to make changes. People who worked during the 40's, 50's, & 60's, did not pay into Social Security what they are taking out, especially if the live more than 10 years after retirement. The system is unjust today, in 1940 there were 154 workers for every retiree, today there are 2.9 workers for each retiree. To keep SS payments going, we are going to have to either raise taxes or lower benefits. Which will the politicians do?

My plan, as stated before, is start say on January 1, 1990 with a new system. That system would do the following.

Employee pays 6.5% of salary into Social Security under their Social Security Number.

Their Employer pays 6.5% of salary into Social Security under the employees SS#

Each year that SS# gets a 3% APR on the money they put into their SS account.

At the average private sector salary of $37.000 the employee would put $2405 in their account, while their employer puts in $2405 and on December 31 of the next year, the government places .03% into their account. 1st year interest would be $144.30

After 10 years w/o salary changes that person would have $56,795.50

After 20 years w/o salary changes that person would have $133,123.90

After 30 years w/o salary changes that person would have $235, 702.88

After 40 years w/o salary changes that person would have $373,560.46

After 50 years (making that person 70), w/o salary changes that person would have $558,828.52

whatever they have in their accounts, is what they have for retirement. They keep getting their interest, if they keep working they keep replacing their money.

Other items, their accounts do not go to the federal government when they die, it gets handed down to the dependents, split among all beneficiaries listed. Equally.

Everyone prior to January 1, 1990, they stay on the same plan, those working keep paying the same, and we raise, yes I am saying raise, the federal gas tax to 20 cents, taking 2 cents per gallon and placing it in the SS system 1 cent per gallon to keep the old system going, 1 cent per gallon to pay the interest for the new program, until all those born prior to January 1, 1990 have passed away. Then the 2 cents per gallon would be used to pay help pay the interest for the new program.

Tear it apart, although it seems simple, it would be better than what we have.

BB,

I can agree with no raises and a salary freeze for federal workers but not with a salary cut across the board. I would say to bring down cost place all government workers on the GS scale, which is public knowledge and rates are more than reasonable for the experience it takes to fill those positions. I would also agree with a new hire freeze.

Please stop saying government workers get paid twice as much because that is not the case. The important thing about all the cost saving cuts that need to be made is that we include the government contract sector in the equation.

Tom,

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm

No one disputes the raw numbers USA Today reported. The BEA and others quoted by USA Today, however, caution that those numbers do not tell the complete story.

USA Today noted that the analysis did not consider differences in education and experience.

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2010/aug/18/mike-keown/federal-employee-pay-out-control-candidate-says/

I don't think that I have not told the truth. I understand that different people and different jobs pay differently, but when averaged together, this is what you get.

I am sorry that you disagree with cutting their salaries by 5%, that is why we live in America, we can have opinions. But as a taxpayer, I think their salaries should be cut, I am not asking for their benefits to be slashed, just their salaries, especially since they seem to be getting well over $40K in benefits. Wish all americans had those benefits?

Really disappointed that no one wants to talk about SS today, especially since they are talking about cuts in benefits today with the bi-partisan committee to reduce the deficit.

BigBear, that USA Today article is an example really bad science, if not bad journalism. Only a small amount of common sense is needed to know that the comparison being made is completely unfair. The only way to fairly compare the salaries of federal employees versus private sector employees is to look at the average salaries for the same job title in both sectors, not the average of all employees. I'd be curious to see the salaries of, for example, an accountant working for the government, versus one working for one of the big accounting firms.

do you make this nonsense up as you go along? you need to see "capitalism - a love story" and then talk this nonsense. the people of this country NEVER benefit from anything other than welfare, food stamps, WIC, medicaire/medicaid and social security. and the vast majority of us don't use any of these things. you need to also realize that MOST of your CONgressmen are rich; they are not part of the have nots and obviously you are not either....any one who IS amongst the have nots would tell you the same thing i am saying - your comments show you to be part of the problem, not the solution. too many people on these postings worry about democrap or republicant....they BOTH are in the business, sad to say, to destroy the middle class while stroking the middle class ego - what the japanese did at pearl harbor comes to mind....a bailout for GM meant nothing more than allowing some people to keep their jobs....unless you are against labor (probably are), try looking BEHIND the words you hear when one or more CONgressmen speak....

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

It should be noted that Gov. Barbour and other staunch republicans also supported this act. Rep. Tom Price of Georgia wants to cut this program claiming it will save 25 Billion Dollars. Two problems with this as reported by the CBPP, the first is the program expired Set. 30, 2010, there is no money to be saved and second the extension that President Obama has asked for is 2.5 Billion dollars for one year. Rep. Price multiplied the cost by a factor of 10”.

Great Post navy

What you've exposed is how hypocritical and what a bunch of liars the Republican/Tea baggers are. They are the ones who wanted Clinton to come the middle. This time they want to eliminate what's not ever there.

Thanks for the info, USN. Good stuff as always. Now that the Conservative Republicans are past the election their hidden agenda is coming to light a little at a time. Big shock that it's mostly vaporware. The rest actually hurts the country. Whatever, anything for the wealthy elites that already run the GOP and are on the verge of running the whole country.

Cry me a river.

“A new Economic Policy Institute analysis of Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner’s recently-proposed two-step job creation plan finds that it would have a net job impact of one million fewer jobs nationwide. ... At a cost of one million jobs, this plan would reduce the deficit by a negligible amount – less than 5.5% in 2011. If his proposed tax policies are made permanent, as he has advocated, it would significantly worsen the long-term budgetary outlook”.

If Boehner's scheme is implemented and costs a million jobs with little effect on the deficit as predicted, he'll just blame it on President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid. Republicans never feel the need to explain a rational cause-and-effect relationship for any of their assertions; vilification of their political enemies usually does the trick.

Excellent factual post, US Navy.

Until 2009, during economic recessions republicans supported the extension of unemployment benefits but it is also apparent that for 30 years conservatives have become increasingly selfish. John Dean, at one time a loyal republican, wrote about this evolution in "Conservatives Without Conscience". The problem is that Club for Growth, Reagan and Gingrich's embrace of the evangelical social agenda, and most recently the Tea Party have moved the party to the extreme side of conservative ideology--the liberatarian side which sounds good but like communism, a pure ideology that cannot and will not ever work.

I'm a liberal who believes in fiscal responsibility. It is why I railed at (and continue to do so) former President Reagan's voodoo economics and the massive debt he left; it is why I was angry at Bush when he took a sledge hammer to the progress Clinton, and the GOPers who compromised with him, made to balance the budget and pay down the debt. Voters who thought they were choosing a new republican party will be greatly disappointed by spring 2011. They did not learn the lesson of Reagan's failed policies or the lessons of Bush 43s voodoo economics on steroids.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Today is November 10, 2010 and it is 727 days to the 2012 Election.

Gee, your liberal idol isn't Kieth Obermann is it? Nothing like opening your blog with a standard statement from KO.

I am not saying that I agree with the Ohio Gov’s decision to end high speed rail in Ohio. I do want to mention the fact that 400,000 million will probably not be enough to build it. Normally the states have to supply a large portion of the money. Maybe the governor cancelled it because Ohio doesn’t have the money to pay its share. We all remember what happened with the BIG DIG in MA, the price just kept going up and up.

If a state doesn’t have the money required to finish the job, then why should it even be started.

In S. Illinois we have the same issue with a new bridge to cross the Mississippi River. We received a grant to build a new bridge, but it wasn’t near enough money to completely build the bridge, even with the money that Missouri must contribute.

I’d like one on you so upset that the Ohio is “killing jobs” to please tell me how the state should raise the money that the Federal government is not going to provide.

Sorry, I used the date thing the day after the election. Keith just started using it. Besides, so what!! What: don't you like being reminded that come January all eyes are going to be fixed on the republican/tea party to see how you lower the deficit, balance the budget, create jobs, improve our infrastructure, etc? And your final grade will come out in 727 days and America is Watching.

Nice talking points, j.wesley. Do you have any game, or just schoolyard taunts?

How will the GOPTP balance the budget while cutting taxes? You've mentioned some things you're not fond of, what impact will they have on the budget, specifically? What government services will no longer be provided as they are reduced? How many of these employees will end up on the unemployment roles, and what effect will that have on the economy? What programs will be reduced and by how much? Where's the plan?

Handjob,

If I cry you a river, will you go and jump in it?

Your only response to a fact-filled, well-written and thought provoking piece is a one-liner? How clever. Can you see Russia from your front step?

Here's your 2012 Presidential ticket bubba: Steele/Palin 2012, Black, White and RIGHT

USN, thanks for reposting. Conservatives seem to be very afraid of the Liberal message they insist has no content. Afraid enough that it must be silenced.

Hmm Navy, lots of criticism there of the proposals of others, but no offer of anything constructive on how to deal with the issues. Is your plan to simply continue the massive deficit spending or something else you are hiding from us? We all know about the standard pot shots! What proposed solutions o you have to offer?

@janet-489369

To add to your point. NJ also killed a rail project as only the state of NJ was on the hook for cost overruns. However, my point on all this federal money for rail projects is "will the project be profitable when its finished"? I don't see the point of building high speed rail systems if we then have to subsidize them with taxpayer funds to keep them running. Even the projects being cited in Europe and Asia require government funds to pay for current operations.

OK j.wesley, how much will you cut? How much will this reduce the budget? What services to the public will be eliminated to produce those savings? Until you start to answer those questions it's all vaporware.

Kevin 500221;

First, we liberals/progressives for the last 2 years have been putting up our ideas. Now it is your turn since you will be called upon by America to do something in January that moves us forward as a Nation. You guys should have had a plan put together before you ran for office. What is the plan?? Nobody knows because the republican/tea party does not want us to know. It is that simple.

With the republican/tea party in control of the House in January it is your ideas that matter, not ours. You should have had this ready by now.

How are you, the republican/tea party going to reduce the deficit? How about balancing the Budget and lowering the National Debt. What is your plan to create Jobs in America, you opposed virtually every Job creating Bill that President Obama has proposed so what is your input to creating jobs. What are you going to do to improve education? Come on, you should have some ideas by now. These questions are in your court now. So just answer them, we want to know.

"America is Watching"

retired navy - if you are going to tell stories dealing in politics try telling both sides. On the last vote to extend unemployment the republicans wanted to use funds that were already allocated out of the budget but not spent while the democrats wanted to further spend new funds and thereby increase government debt.

The current vote coming up for extentions follows the same line of thought only this time they will agree to the extensions if funding is cut from somewhere else to pay for it. Much like many americans have done the last 2 years. I want this and in order to get it I will have to do without something else!

BTW - most of us know how to click on a collapsed comment to read it

usnavy - you have to be kidding! Obama offered "hope and change" and delivered unknown change for businesses with regard to healthcare cost, wall st reform and projected an anti-business attitude. Great planning! I suppose if I was retired like yourself i could go back over your past posts to read what your recommendations were. Forget them already? You can repost bevs collapsed comment but can't repost your own recommendations from last year?

You guys should have had a plan put together before you ran for office. What is the plan?? Nobody knows because the republican/tea party does not want us to know. It is that simple.

Seems that you are incapable of even following your own advice.

American - yes, that is what the Republicans did, but relented and ended up putting the Unemployment Insurance cost onto a SUPPLEMENTAL budget anyway. I realise that PAYGO was supposed to be used, but it seems that we have an EMERGENCY budget for just that - emergencies.

We have people HURTING out there with no jobs and no prospects for a job. Putting the cost for UI on a supplemental will probably not add to the budget because we are getting $1.64 back for every $1 we spend. When Jim Bunning (R-KY) held up the UI benefits the last time, there was a HUGE public outcry.

The Republicans are threatening to defund TANF, which was 2.5 BILLION and created 240,000 jobs.

So what is it going to be - tell the millions out of work 'too bad, too sad' or add the monies to the supplemental so that these people will not starve while looking for a job?

How do we NOT take care of AMERICANS in AMERICA?

USNDR:

The funny part is that the Republicans don't have to accomplish anything. They only have control of the HR. Remember, the Senate and the WH are still under Dem control. Anything the Rebups try to accomplish will be blocked by the Senate and WH...

So WHO will we be looking at as OBSTRUCTIONISTS then?

EVERYONE knows that the Repubs don't control enough to actually change anything. Therefore no one expects them to. All we wanted was for them to STOP THE FINANCIAL BLEEDING! Which they will do!

ok pietro, I am game, exactly how does spending $1.00 get us a $1.64 back? Using a trickle down theory?

It is more like the 'trickle up' theory.

The people who are getting UI in the first palce will most likely spend most of or all of the monies they get, which in turn helps the economy (the monies spent get circulated multiple times in the economies that it is spent), unlike tax cuts that end up either paying down debt or in a savings account, which does NOT circulate in the economy.

Part of the reason why the economy is so sluggish now is because most of the money that would NORMALLY be circulating in the economy is being used to service or pay down debt.

In this economy, since private sector jobs are scarce, government spending in America (you can see that through the stimulus as well as UI) helps keep the economy going. Although it is not as strong as I would like to see it, it is still growing at a slow, steady pace.

I agree it would be better if those on UI had jobs to go to.

Since the Private sector is not contributing ENOUGH to society to keep it running, we have Government spending that is being used to bridge the gap until the private sector can catch up. Since the private sector has decided to outsource jobs and manufacturing capabilities, we are seeing more unemployment than we normally would, with the government sector picking up most of the slack - for now.

American 2051576

Pietro is correct on that number. It comes from CBO, CBPP has similar numbers as does the Economic Policy Institute. The people receiving unemployment put that money back into the economy to buy food, clothing, pay their bils etc. Go google it and read it yourself. Many economists (republican and democrat) are on record saying that unemployment benefits (and Food Stamps by the way) provides a good return (bang for your buck).

I stand with Pietro on this as that number is accurate.

Pietro & Navy,

What do we do with these people once they have used up their 99 weeks? keep extending their benefits at the working man's expense?

Just asking.

Big Bear - you ask a good question. The short answer is that there is NO real good answer! The 99er (as they are called) right now are not getting anything from the government and they are still out of jobs. They are a net DRAIN on the economy WITHOUT UI benefits.

The issue that I have been reading about is that we have never had a situation like this where people cannot find jobs 2-3 years after the fact. IMHO, I attribute this to a lack of jobs in manufacturing and the wholesale outsourcing of American jobs to China and India.

Cutting spending is NOT the way to solve this problem, and yes, I understand your point - at what point do we STOP paying UI to these people? The answer is to create jobs so that those on UI can start paying back into UI what they took out.

Unfortunately, I see - especially in my home state - that job creation is not an important item on the GOP/Tea Party docket...

Pietro,

I know that you live in Ohio, actually I was born in Tooleedo, and many of my relatives still live and work there.

Some of the problems I have with these federal earmarks, is that they have specifics rules and regulations that have to go along with.

I have not done the research there yet, but am wondering if the feds are putting restrictions on things like workers? Union or not? How fast must it be built? Bonuses from the State to get it complete early? After built, what type of restrictions and workers. When you start weighing these things also, it could be that it cost Ohio more to build the darn thing than it does to not build it.

I don't know, I just know about some of the restrictions placed on highways being built years ago in Texas. That is why I am asking. Since you seem to be more moderate and open minded I will respect what your answers are. Although I am sarcastic further down the blog.

And we have discussed prior, I am in favor of high speed rail, more of the Monorail type like at disney. And I think it is feasible, using the interstate highway system we have today. Now that would create jobs, especially if we used electricity to run those rail lines.

Big Bear - we don't have much disagreement here.

I also am not sure if there are any restrictions on the monies that will be spent What I see is that there will be an explosion of jobs - in the MILLIONS to build, support, and maintain that line. I am not sure if the line will be like a monorail, but a high-speed line will definitely mean that new track has to be laid to support the weight and speed of the trains that will run on it.

Like I have said before - I have ridden the the Aerostar in Europe more than once, and it is an engineering marvel as well as an alternative means of transport other than the airport (which I hate with a passion).

There is more that bind us than that which divides us, Big Bear. More jobs would definitely be better for America in the long run, don't you think?

Pietro,

I don't have a thing against creating private sector jobs. Down below, I was more interested in the use of "millions" for that one rail line. As I stated below, if done across the nation I see "millions", but from Cleveland to Cincy--I would find it hard to keep and maintain "millions" of jobs, considering that Ohio, while populated, losses population each year to the southern states.

If you get to Dallas, try the Dart rail lines. They have been planned out pretty well. I could leave the North Dallas area, arrive at Reunion arena area in 20 minutes or less. They saved tons of time and parking fees in downtown Dallas.

Still the over the Interstate Monorail system would be the answer. Don't have to design new areas of travel. Just put them overhead, and move people faster. Dallas to Houston--almost straight shot. Dallas to San Antonio--almost straight shot. Even Dallas to Shreveport--for the gambling--straight shot. Dallas to Oklahoma City--straight shot. Even think about Columbus to Toledo/Detroit, just take it west on 70 to 75, or build it along 33 or 23 till you get to 75. Columbus to Cleveland--right along 71. Could be so easy, but who am I, just a dreamer:)

Big Bear - you are talking about LIGHT rail in this case, not high-speed. Two COMPLETELY different animals. Although I do not disagree with your assessment, I did NOT include any LIGHT RAIL jobs in my statement when I talked about MILLIONS of jobs (which I still stand by).

Personally, I would like to see MORE light rail in cities mainly because of the reason(s) you stated in your post above. Unfortunately for Ohio, this may not see the light of day unless there is some sort of deal made.

You say you are 'just a dreamer'? Don't sell yourself short. It was just a dream to walk on the moon at one time, wasn't it?

John Kasich has asked Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood to allow the $400 million for the high speed rail to be used on other Ohio infrastructure projects however Mr. LaHood has denied the request. Secretary LaHood stated that the funds were approved only for “rail” projects and if Mr. Kasich is not going to use the funds for the approved high speed rail then the funds must be returned to the Federal Government. John Kasich stated he would not return the funds without a court fight.

Ohio could lose another $400 million in “Race to the Top’ funds according to the Columbus Dispatch:

“Ohio could lose more than $400 million in federal Race to the Top funds if Governor-elect John Kasich follows through with his plan to dump outgoing Gov. Ted Strickland’s education overhaul.”

Governor-elect Kasich is starting off by giving up $800,000,000 in Federal funds as Ohio struggles with a huge budget shortfall and unemployment over 10%.

John Kasich starts out in a hole then digs it even deeper, way-to-go John !!

The above republican/tea party is deliberately denying their people good paying jobs for the sake of winning an election in 2012.

I can no longer feel bad for people who vote for Republicans. They have learned nothing. This is not a surprise what Kasich is doing in Ohio. He's a cruel heartless man. He always was.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

John Kasich starts out in a hole then digs it even deeper, way-to-go John !!

Just wait; that hole he's digging, he'll need to climb on the shoulders of the people he is burying to get out of that hole.

Dennis,

Absolutely amazing is it not. And we wonder why jobs are not coming as fast as we would like. How can they when the republican/tea party filibusters every job bill, and the ones that do get through they deny the opportunity for their people to have access to them. I keep saying that this is a very well planned attack on the middle class by the right for one reason and one reason only. To win the next election and the he!! with the people. The republican/tea party in convinced that by destroying America that have a road to the White House. They will continue with this attack until November 2012 unless the people stop them.

It never ceases to amaze me how short-sighted the "run government like a business" people are. Save a buck here, who cares if it costs ten down the road. Don't invest a buck now that'll pay off fourfold when it matures.

It also doesn't surprise me a bit to see that the Republican governors don't actually plan to refuse the money, they just want to divert it into things that are more politically beneficial for them. Is that what all those GOPTP voters had in mind when they heard "fiscal responsibility"?

The above republican/tea party is deliberately denying their people good paying jobs for the sake of winning an election in 2012.

The Republicans are simply lying when they claim their goal is to "create jobs" by some magical means. Their actions prove their real goal: to keep the economy depressed for another two years and convince the public it's Obama's fault so they can get the White House back. That's exactly what was running through Mitch McConnell's evil little brain when he said his main priority was to make Obama a one-term president.

The whiny shrieking from the Left is: "What programs are the GOP going to cut? What programs are the GOP going to cut?"

New GOP Governors Kill $1.2 Billion In High-Speed Rail Jobs

Well there you go! That's called a good start!

I'm not saying that I agree with the Ohio Gov's decision to cancel the high speed project. But these states have to normally match the gov funds. If the state doesn't have the matching funds, how are they supposed to support the project? We have the same issue in southern IL for a new bridge over the Mississippi. The state of IL doesn't have the money to meet its share of the matching funds. MO also is still researching ways to come up with the rest of the money. I think the mone

We just need to call the Liberals 'Sybil' for their multiple personalities - like this post.

It never ceases to amaze me how short-sighted the "run government like a business" people are. Save a buck here, who cares if it costs ten down the road. Don't invest a buck now that'll pay off fourfold when it matures.

Okay, the poster is mad that the Republicans don't want to continue the deficit spending.

Now the personality change takes place:

It also doesn't surprise me a bit to see that the Republican governors don't actually plan to refuse the money, they just want to divert it into things that are more politically beneficial for them

Now the poster is mad the GOP is spending the money, just on something else.

I guess the headache from last weeks elections continue for the Libs. Maybe we need to give them a few more weeks to recover before they even remotely start to make any sense.

Iowa's republican Gov elect Branstad has stated he isn't sure he wants the proposed railroad links from Chicago to the Quad Cities (he can't stop that) to Iowa City and eventually Des Moines and points west. Last week Branstad said he will likely ignore the voter's approval of an amendment that would require .0375% of any future sales tax hikes to be used for cleaning up Iowa's waterways. Hope Iowa voters who supported him are happy with their move backward to the failed policies of Branstad's previous 16 years as governor; and he hasn't even taken office yet. The republicans complained that Gov Culver (and every other democrat in the US) were not listening to voters yet Branstad's first post election stance on cleaning our waterways is to IGNORE the voters wishes.

Suddenly pointing out the hypocrisy of Republicans claiming to cut government expenditures while merely shifting the money to pet projects is shrieking and whining. Of course, people who claim that shifting money is the same thing as cutting expenditures wouldn't recognize hypocrisy under any circumstances.

I wonder how all the thousands of people that have been denied good paying jobs with benefits (you know like Health Care, 401K, etc) feel. I guess JS1 must have asked each one and they said he!! no, we do not want any jobs, what ever gave you that idea?

Nice try with the typical republican/tea party taliking points. I am not buying it. Jobs are not going to magically fall out ot he skies, not matter how many times the republican/tea party says they will. Money needs to be spent to correct the gross mismanagement of the previous administration. And beside those cuts are only a drop in the bucket to getting to a balanced budget.

STTS

JoAnnaSmith1

The whiny shrieking from the Left is: "What programs are the GOP going to cut? What programs are the GOP going to cut?"

New GOP Governors Kill $1.2 Billion In High-Speed Rail Jobs

Well there you go! That's called a good start!

Joanna, your applauding the cut of 1.2billion for high speed rail as a victory for cutting spending ?

Joanna you do realise that we are so far behind the times when it comes to transportation in the modern world. you do realise that untill the high speed rail is complete the airlines have us by the balls? high speed rail just like wind farms are the future. the future, please don't be stuck in the past, they way you think, Eisenhower would have never funded the highway system we take for granted today because as you say, it cost too much!!!!

Joanna, the only spending cut that will make a difference is with defense, Medicaid, medicare, SS. Now you tell me which one do you think we should make cuts, please don't say SS because the baby boomers are retiring, don't say defense because we are in 1 1/2 wars. (1 for afgan, 1/2 for iraq) but Medicaid and medicare yes, the new HCR bill will allow us to cut from these programs divert money it to the new HCR and according to the CBO the saving from the new HCR wil save us billions.

Joanna to cut from the high speed rail that europe has had for 20 years would be stupid for 3 reasons,

1, it would reduce our use of jet fuel and gas,

2 our air would be lot cleaner alone with the reduced used of air travel.

3. a trip fromchicago to st Louis would take half the time as driving (6 hours down to 3 hours) and the cost would be half a air line ticket.

I hope i live to see the high speed rail ,my son told me that was so cool when he went from france to England going 100 miles a hour.

As usual, we are stepping over Joanna's steaming pile of hyperbole - and this time she is glad that 1.2 BILLION dollars that would create MILLIONS of jobs is being blocked.

Jeff is right - the United States is WAAY behind many countries when it comes to high speed rail. Have we forgotten already that China has set the land speed record for rail travel??

I have been on the Eurostar and it cruises at 140kmh. Too bad we don't have something like that here because we have shortsighted people that are blocking it.

How is AMERICA supposed to be the best when we are not willing to invest in OUR infrastructure?

Navy Guy copy and pastes: “Scott Walker, the incoming governor of Wisconsin, for instance, vowed on Wednesday to carry out a campaign pledge to kill a proposed high-speed rail link between Milwaukee and Madison, part of a larger project to create a high-speed rail corridor across the upper Midwest, from Minneapolis to Chicago. The project was to be fully paid for with $810 million in federal stimulus funds.

And the stimulus funds, are they "fully paid for"? Paying for something with deficit spending means they are not paid for at all.

Listen Libs, if you think this stuff is so important, you're going to have to start prioritize what is more important. High speed rail, food stamps, health care, unemployment benefits, education, the list is endless. Every time American turns around, the Libs want more and more money for less and less efficient government programs. Time to prioritize Libs. There is only so much money you can waste and you can only run your Keynesian economics for so long. You're like petulant children that cry and whine if you don't get every toy in the toy store.

Grow up.

JoAnnaSmith1

your telling us to grow up, well honey get real!!!!!!!

we are not the ones crying for everything we want, your republicans are the ones crying,

you want tax cuts, the deficets you created to go away, at the same time we are in 1 1/2 wars.

like i said Joanna, get real!!!!

How is AMERICA supposed to be the best when we are not willing to invest in OUR infrastructure?

Are these the so-called "shovel ready" jobs Obama ranted about for speech after speech, townhall after townhall last year? Remember those times Libs? How Obama lied about all the infrastructure spending that was to produce all these wonderful jobs, how his economic advisers claimed unemployment would not go above 8%, and would decline from that point if and only if, pretty-please, if the Liberal Congress at the time would only give Obama a trillion dollars to spend on "infrastructure", everything in the country would be just so wonderful!

Well, Obama got his money, and the jobs? They never came. Obama now admits himself there were no "shovel-ready" jobs. Obama campaigned in 2010 on the notion that maybe he hadn't done the best job with the stimulus money he wasted, but he didn't want to "give the keys back" to the GOP. America votedlast week, and they aren't buying what the snake-oil salesman Obama was trying to sell again.

So now the Libs want another round, another bite at the apple, at their alter of "infrastructure spending". Sorry Libs, you blew it. You wasted the money. Why do you think you lost the elections?

Pietro: As usual, we are stepping over Joanna's steaming pile of hyperbole - and this time she is glad that 1.2 BILLION dollars that would create MILLIONS of jobs is being blocked

Wow. The false promises from the Libs just never end! Now $1.2 BILLION dollars will produce "MILLIONS" of jobs! Who'd of thunk it?! This "fact" is being stated even though $787 BILLION in so-called "stimulus" dollars from last year produced no jobs! I guess using your numbers Obama only needed about $5 billion last year in stimulus money to produce the 4 million jobs he promised. So where'd the other $782 billion go?

I guess Obama has gotten more efficent at this job-creation gig he says he's so good at.

Do you guys every think about what you post? Hyperbole indeed.

Well, JoAnnaSmith1 is at it again!

I'm personally glad that Secretary Ray LaHood told Governor-elect John Kasich that he could not use the $400 million for his pet infrastructure projects! Remember, the Republicans are in the pocket of Big Oil; if you have noticed, Big Oil has sent out their thank you notes for the mid-term elections. Gas prices here are heading towards $3.00 a gallon. Wait till next summer; we'll probably be over $4.00 a gallon.

Governor-elect Kasich also decided that Governor Strickland's push for education wasn't needed either!

As far as the trains are concerned, it would be nice to have high-speed rail; it would help on polution and travel. I guess the right-wing Republican fand would prefer that we fall further behind China, Europe, etc. We're so exceptional; we rank 37th in health-care and we're the 12th ranking country! As long as we made sure the top 2% keep getting all of the money; they don't care if we're dead last!!

Julie, Dayton Ohio: As far as the trains are concerned, it would be nice to have high-speed rail

So Jewals, how many jobs can you produce for $1 billion dollars if it's spent on HSR? Your statehood buddy Peitro says it will produce a MILLION jobs. Do you concur?

JoAnna,

I figued I would see a smart-aleck remark from you; I sure wasn't disappointed, was I? You are always available for some snark, but for any responsible answers or alternatives to counter for any left-leaning liberal thoughts you're nowhere to be found!

Jobs would be created in building the rail, companies would possibly/probably move their businesses closer to the rails to be competitive, jobs would be created by the new rail companies, etc.

There are millions of people in this country that are unemployed and many more who are under-employed. Of course, we all remeber Sharon Angle who said these people were lazy and wanted to be carried by the government. JoAnna, I'm sure you agree with Sharon on her opinions, don't you???? Luckily, the people of Nevada were a bit smarter than she is!

JoAnna, I'm guessing you're in favor of the 2% whose opinion is "I have mine, eff you". Furthermore, you don't care what happens to the less fortunate amongst us just as long as you have yours.

Remember, the New Testament states that Jesus said, "Whatever you have done to the least of my brethren, you have done to me." I would as Abraham Lincon said, "Live my life as if there was a heavan and find out that there was not, rather than live my life as if there was no heaven and find out that I was wrong."

Bravo on the answer to Joanna, Julie. Bravo.

That high speed rail project could bring the unemployment numbers in Franklin, Pike, madison counties - those that have a high unemployment rate - by 10 points EASY.

Thanks to our Gov.-elect Kasich, we will CONTINUE to have high unemployment in Ohio.

My Jewals - Why all the anger?

You didn't answer my question Jewals. Do you think like your fellow statehood buddy Pietro that spending $1.2 billion of deficit spending dollars will produce millions of jobs?

Julie,Dayton Ohio: Jobs would be created in building the rail, companies would possibly/probably move their businesses closer to the rails to be competitive, jobs would be created by the new rail companies, etc.

But Jewals, we're just finishing up spending nearly a trillion dollars from the Obama stimulus plan, and we've produced no jobs. So do you understand why most Americans are skeptical of Libs like you when you claim that this time it will be different?

You and your ilk have no credibility Jewals. And you've earned it.

President Obama has a proposal for an 50 Billion Dollar infrastructure bill that will create 35,000 jobs for every billion invested

Didn't he want $28B from the stimulus last year too? I could swear I saw that on Jon Stewart's show. Where is this money going?

Though I think that putting 1.75 million people to work would be a good thing. How are we paying them? Oh right, borrowed money.

Pietro: Bravo on the answer to Joanna, Julie. Bravo

Pietro - Are you too cowardly to back up your claim of MILLIONS of jobs produced by spending a meager $1.2 billion dollars on HSR?

Put up or shut up time pal. Which is it?

Julie,

We live in Ohio so we have a better understanding of what is happening in our state, especially in Dayton where I grew up and is one of the country’s fastest declining cities in population (down 7.2% since 2000) and jobs (unemployment at 11.2% in July). Dayton used to be a strong Manufacturing city.

Some people don’t even know how much of the stimulus was actually spent on infrastructure. It was only 9% of the $787 billion or $71 billion where one-third or $250 billion went for tax cuts.

Small minds can’t see the big picture

STTS

Chef Darrell:

President Obama has a proposal for an 50 Billion Dollar infrastructure bill that will create 35,000 jobs for every billion invested

Didn't he want $28B from the stimulus last year too? I could swear I saw that on Jon Stewart's show. Where is this money going?

____________________________

Maybe we can get our local Budget Director expert Pietro working on those numbers, have them make a little more sense.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio: Some people don’t even know how much of the stimulus was actually spent on infrastructure. It was only 9% of the $787 billion or $71 billion where one-third or $250 billion went for tax cuts.

But Pietro says $1 billion dollars will produce "MILLIONS" of jobs. Now you're saying there was $71 billion spent, so shouldn't that produce at least 71 million jobs?

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio: STTS

Ahh, a Local First Read Libbie Club member has given the universal sign that they have lost the debate. Now we won't hear from any Local Libbie First Read Club members anymore.

It's kind of worth it really. They really don't make any sense.

same libs same comments. Really a bore

Joanna, lets use your logic,

the tax cuts cost 1.2 trillion over 10 years. the jobs created by those tax cuts is at 8 million so if you do the math, that 1.5 million per job created. over 10 years. Now Joanna as you complain that the stimulas was not cost effective, the tax cuts were even worse cost effective and now you want them to extend tax cuts that cost 1.5 million per job created. that just plain crazy.

some one please check my math but i know those tax cuts are a waste of money.

Dennis, Julie - of course Joanna canot fathom that there are hundreds of businesses that are needed to support a rail line, especially if we have one from Cincinnatti to Cleveland. MILLIONS of people would be employed in the short term BUILDING the rail line and the long term SUPPORTING the rail line.

Dennis, you are right - small minds cannot see the whole picture.

Nor does Joanna want to.

Dennis/ Pietro, thank you for the kind words; they're greatly appreciated.

BTW, JoAnna, what do you do for a living? Methinks you have plently of time to post on here, so you must not have a full-time job where you're responsible to your employer! Maybe you're part of the 2% with 98% of the income???? Maybe that's why you're satisfied with the status quo, cause you have yours??????

Of course, you're one of the people who would tell us that the tax cuts for the richest 2% provides jobs. The only places that I have seen those jobs being provided is in India and China. Nothing is manufactured in this country any longer; that's why the trade deficit is so bad. Only jobs available in this country is service jobs; i.e. flipping hamburgers which won't support a family or pay on a mortgage. If the tax cuts for the richest 2% has created SOOOOOOO many jobs, then WHY is there 9.6% unemployment in this country?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

JoAnna, stop DRINKING the kool-aid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pietro:

Too bad JS1 does not know how to read. The article on high speed trains etc has about 8 or 9 pages of data. There will be a lot of jobs created to construct the rail system, to design it, to provide ongoing support for it, people spending their new found paychecks at restaurants, buying clothes, saving their house, paying additional taxes into the system etc.

This is just more of the republican agenda to try and keep us off the topic of the economy. We have right leaning posters that are complining that we are reminding people on a daily basis of the same issues. Too bad. I am going to keep reminding them that in January they have the ball and it will be their turn to do something good for this country as a whole, not just more freebees to Wall Street, Big Business and the richest 2%. When they solve the issues I will stop posting about them. They just want to win elections but not do any of the work that will be involved. Why do you think we have so very little information on what they are going to do. Why do they keep asking us what we are going to do? We are not in the driver seat anymore, they are and they should have had their game plan before they ran for election.

jody,iowa - What is the financial return to the taxpayer for creating a low speed (75 mph)rail line from chicago to iowa city at a minimum cost of $235 million? Sure their will be the temporary jobs created over the next 5 years but I do question the number of permanent jobs created. In times of a robust economy, fine, but when our current infrastructure is hurting to such an extent it seems rather lame to throw the $$$ at a new project with no quarentee of not having cost overruns. Just how many union jobs will be created when operational?

BTW, I don't recall from the Iowa city news article just how long ago this project was first proposed.

Pietro comes up with another whooper:

Dennis, Julie - of course Joanna canot fathom that there are hundreds of businesses that are needed to support a rail line, especially if we have one from Cincinnatti to Cleveland. MILLIONS of people would be employed in the short term BUILDING the rail line and the long term SUPPORTING the rail line.

You can't stop digging the hole you're in, can you Pietro? You're still sticking with the "MILLIONS" of jobs produced if you build a railroad. And one would think there is already a railroad there, between Cleveland and Cincinnati, one that travels I'm certain at least at 60 mph, but if it went a little faster, you're trying to tell us all that "MILLIONS" of jobs would be produced?

This when Ohio has about 5.9 million jobs, so you're claiming (aka, pulling one out of your hind-side) that "MILLIONS" (plural) of more jobs would be produced. So you're saying Ohio's employment will grow by 2 million jobs, 33%, because of a train that goes a little bit faster.

Right. Got any studies to back that claim up Pietro? Not including the ramblings rolling around in your head.

Ohio job numbers from: http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh.htm

Joanna Smith

Why don't you learn from Janet and Big Bear or Exodite Dragon and try to post some of your ideas instead of always trying to rip on everyone? It is real easy to complain about what you feel the administration has done wrong without suggesting anything you would propose?

As we both want the economy to improve, correct; but have a different political idealogy, what can the political parties work toward to get people back to work? Mind you unless you are satisfied with gridlock, a R House and a D Senate can't pass anything without compromise.

BRAVO Joanna!

MILLIONS of jobs... HAH... These fools have no idea. NONE! Millions of jobs! LOL!

They understand that your comments expose their foolishness... and it ticks them off... so they band together to try to save some face by accusing you of being small minded... GO FIGURE!

Children... all of them!

You can't stop digging the hole you're in, can you Pietro? You're still sticking with the "MILLIONS" of jobs produced if you build a railroad. And one would think there is already a railroad there, between Cleveland and Cincinnati, one that travels I'm certain at least at 60 mph, but if it went a little faster, you're trying to tell us all that "MILLIONS" of jobs would be produced?

This when Ohio has about 5.9 million jobs, so you're claiming (aka, pulling one out of your hind-side) that "MILLIONS" (plural) of more jobs would be produced. So you're saying Ohio's employment will grow by 2 million jobs, 33%, because of a train that goes a little bit faster.

Again, Joanna, you fail to see the full picture because you do not want to. That's fine with me. I stand by my post.

MILLIONS of jobs would be produced by adding a high-speed rail line from Cincinnatti to Cleveland. I have already posted why. USNDR posted why. You are not helping your cause by trying to pin me down on exactly how many MILLIONS of jobs that are going to be created - especially since the GOP Gov-elect Kasich has basically killed the project.

So, you can continue to drop your steaming, fragrant pile of hyperbole since that is all you are able to do. They mere fact that you cannot DISPROVE what I am saying tells me volumes.

As Dennis said - small minds cannot see the full picture.

You don't want to.

Actually, you are INCAPABLE of seeing ANY picture.

A little laxative would help with those steaming piles you drop, though.

Well thank you for that Yellowdog. Maybe your side can do the same. Go talk to Feisty, see if you can get her onboard. And good luck with that.

I've posted many ideas of what needs to be done for the economy and the country. Maybe you've read them, maybe you haven't. But if someone posts something that is so outrageous like Pietro has, you just have to call them on it. Many people on the Left believe what the likes of Pietro post. Pointing out what a phony argument that is is part of what blogs are about.

We've just gotten through the federal government spending trillions on the economy, and it still the economy lags. Yet Liberals continue to insist that much more spending is needed. The Fed is now in the process of devaluing the dollar through quantitative easing, a move that has brought criticism from our trade partners, and very valid inflation fears from Americans. This spending spree really needs to stop and priorities need to be made and enforced. We can't do it all.

Well, Joanna,

I see that being willfully ignorant is your forte. So be it.

My argument is not phony, and just because you have decided to close your eyes, ears, mind to what is possible with a job creating project, then that is your problem.

The Federal government CANNOT stop spending because the Private sector is NOT spending enough. With the outsourcing of jobs and manufacturing capabilities, we have cut off our nose in spite of our faces. There is no economy that can sustain itself on service jobs alone, as we have been led to believe. We need to be building tangible items to create wealth for this country. We are not right now.

Yes, I see that the Fed is going to create inflation by pumping 600 BILLION into the economy to try and get it started again (because it is sluggish now). We still have the same problem though - banks are not lending because they CANNOT; businesses cannot get lines of credit; inventories are being depeleted, jobs are being cut for a variety of reasons.

The American economy wil implode if we stop spending as you have advocated. That will mean no money for the basic necessities of our society. Until our capacity to generate wealth increases, we have no choice but to spend accordingly.

Joanna, you have been challenged on here many times to explain what needs to be cut and why. Of course you do not ever answer the challenges with any facts, but with semi-witty harrumphs like 'get lost'.

Again, so be it.

The spending sprre that we are digging out of right now started in 2001. We have not been successful in getting the economy to the point where it needs to be over the past 2 years. We will have 2 years to try it your way though. I really hope that the GOPers/Tea party are successful in moving America forward, I really am - for all our sakes.

Too bad they are telegraphing that Gridlock is the best we will be able to do.

Pietro,

As usual, we are stepping over Joanna's steaming pile of hyperbole - and this time she is glad that 1.2 BILLION dollars that would create MILLIONS of jobs is being blocked.

I don't know if you are quoting someone, but the numbers just don't add up. What is "millions" of jobs with only 1.2 billion dollars.

I pretty much figure that if you used the entire 1.2 billion, you could get 60,000-$20K jobs, or 20,000-$60K jobs. I just don't know how you get millions of jobs being blocked. Unless you are using "Madoff" math:)

The actual number of jobs created is not the real point whether they be 1 Million or thousands. The point, and I support Pietro on this, is that it would have created well paying jobs for many people that need them. Jobs in building the lines, maintenance, design, and all the other support jobs plus the added taxes on that income needed to make this work would have a cumulative effect beyond just the basic job. The other point is that the republican/tea party again is telling the people what is good for them and NOT listening to the American people who are crying for jobs. Why not ask the people in that state if they want the jobs or not, since as you said, it is their money being spent.

The only reason for this is that the republican/tea party does not give a dam# about the middle class. That want the economy to tank because they see that as the road to the White House. You can spin it anyway you want but just looking at the deeds of the republicans over the last 21 months and it is very clear that want to destroy the middle class and then try and pin it on President Obama.

We are being sold out from within for the Gods of Greed and Power.

Why Navy,

It does matter, because people on here a claiming all kinds of crap. Pietro claiming that a $1.2 billion dollar investment is going to create "millions" of jobs. That is a pure LIE! You all can't have it both ways. Now if he was quoting someone, then my apologies, otherwise, there is no way in the world that a $1.2 billion dollar rail line is going to create "millions" of jobs.

You all are just like the CBO, they can't decide whether 1.4 million jobs have been saved, or 3.3 million jobs. They don't know, because they can't figure out government math either.

But those simple gods of greed and power, they at least know how to make money, they just don't like the government re-distribution. I also see that you care about the middle class, because you just want to re-distribute the wealth also, making us a classless society, just like they did in Russia.

Big Bear - for the THIRD and FINAL time, I stand by my post. The jobs are not just the INITIAL jobs that are created by the project, but I included all of the ANCILLIARY jobs that are created because of that project. Dividing the total number INVESTED by a 'reasonable job salary' does NOT give you the numbers that you SHOULD be getting. There is no way that you can say that 1.2 BILLION divided by $60,000 jobs is what will be generated; the REAL job salaries are going to be more varied.

The second part of my post that people seem to forget is the number of jobs that are created by SUPPORTING the high-speed rail line, including all of the businesses that derive their income FROM the high-speed rail line. This is in addition to the increase of discretionary income for those cities that HAVE the line installed.

The third part of this post is that MAINTANENCE of the high-speed rail line will entail job creation, not to mention the maintenance of the trains, the tracks, train parts, the assemblage of those parts, and upgrades to the trains when necessary. If the trains are made in America, guess what - MORE jobs that Americans will have to build trains for these high-speed lines.

That is the WHOLE picture, not just what the Feds invested. Private investment in services and/or products for that rail line will be made as this is sure cash for the business. This high-speed rail line is a catalyst for business and the creation of jobs.

SO, I stand by my post.

If you think I am telling a LIE, prove me wrong.

I'll bite Pietro,

Talking about high speed rail lines sends chills down my spine.

So they want to build a High Speed Rail line from Cleveland to Cincy. What about 250 miles?

On a short jaunt like that, say it is Non Stop.

The average High Speed Rail Lines in Japan (country that uses a lot of them) is 16 cars carrying 1300 people at capacity.

Lets say it takes 3 years to build rail line, I know that is fast for government work. They have 5,000 employees building it over the 3 years--that is 15,000 employees. For that time period.

Lets say it takes 3 years to build the stations at each end, because it is just 2 stops now, but hopefully will grow. (see, I like growth). Say they use 2500 workers to build each station for 3 years. Another 15,000 employees over that 3 years.

What we have 30,000 employees to build the thing.

Now the stations each have 10 food service areas, and 5 stores--to get crossword puzzle magazines. I will even throw in 3 shifts 24 hours a day--because many of these employees will be part time. Every Food Service area has 12 people per shift * 3=36 employees per day and each store has about 4 people per shift *3=12 employees per day. So once built, we have 48 people working at the stores each day for each year.

Now for employees of the Rail line--will they be federal employees or state employees, or even private sector employees. Lets just say each station has 250 employees for all things, janitors, ticket takers, baggage handlers, That is another 500 employees. And lets say there are 2 conductors per car *16 so that is 32 employees per train + 5 more to run the train. 37 total employees per train.

Lets say we have 1300 passengers per train. Seems unlikely, considering they are Cleveland & Cincy. But each person takes a cab when they get to the town.

Lets say there is one leaving every 4 hours from each town. So that is 6 trips a day. Each of the train employees will take 2 trips a day. Away and Home.

So lets start adding up the employees

Build Rail lines and stations 30,000

Work in Stores both stations 100 (I rounded up)

Work in Stations only 500 (250 each station)

Taxi cab drivers 7800 (3 shift of 1300 per station)

Train workers 250 (3 shifts of 37 per train, per station)

After the initial building of 30,000 employees, we'll add another 500 employees to maintain the rail line and add it to the above workers. Which will give us, just the 2 rail stations and lines about 9000 employees--so for any other miscellaneous employees that I have missed, we'll round up to 10,000 employees to keep the rail lines moving. I'll even throw in another 10,000 people at hotels, car rentals, and every other service industry that could benefit from this single rail line. So that is 20,000 people working, plus the 30,000 that built the darn thing.

So after 4 years we would have created 50K new jobs. Not bad. If if this rail line keeps running at the same pace for 50 years, you will finally have a million jobs out there.

Now not to be, well I am, nitpicking, I just don't see how a single high speed rail line is going to create "MILLIONS" of jobs. Because you know as well as I do, construction companies aren't going to higher thousands of workers to build it. Each manager is at every store is going to keep as few workers as possible.

I know you will stand by your opinion, now, if they send these things across the US, then we could be talking about "MILLIONS" of jobs.

Pietro: Now others are calling you out, and still you have no explanation of how you can create MILLIONS of jobs from a billion dollars. Face facts partner, your have nothing. You're just a big blow hard.

Joanna, you have been challenged on here many times to explain what needs to be cut and why. Of course you do not ever answer the challenges with any facts, but with semi-witty harrumphs like 'get lost'.

That is an outright lie. Here, Pietro lets go through them again, so even you will understand it.

Lets start with your billion dollars for the Train to Nowhere. There's one cut, and Ohio is lucky to have a new governor that understands what a waste it would be. Next, the billion dollar Tunnel to Nowhere between NY/NJ, oh wait, Governor Christie all ready tanked that boondoggle. Good for him.

Now Pietro, go look at the preliminary Deficit Commission report. Modification of entitlements in the forms of eligibility, reduction of benefits paid out, and funding is required. The Deficit Commision continues on those lines for all entitlements. They too need to be reduced. That includes means testing.

On the discretionary spending side, a10% across the board cut for all departments, including defense, will be a start. Each department will have to prioritize each of it's programs and cut the ones that don't make the grade.

Next look at the revenue side of funding the government which includes a broader and simplified tax base. All citizens should pay taxes Pietro, including income taxes. Doing so will have everyone have an investment in the American government.

I'd don't expect you understand any of this Pietro. Someone that says they can produce MILLIONS of jobs from a $1 billion dollars of so-called investment belongs an institution, or in Obama's cabinet, same difference, either way the concepts will be lost on someone like you.

My goodness, poor Joanna is becoming increasingly bitter and angry. Why is that? Though it must be distressing for poor Joanna to be so constantly wrong. One wonders if the sun ever shines in her little narrow world?

BigBear - You provide a high dose of reality to Pietro's Other Worldly fantasies. It's amazing that Liberals can believe they can produce MILLIONS of jobs with a billion dollars when they just got done spending trillions of dollars to produce ZERO job growth.

Well, for your efforts, be prepared for some personal attacks and angry finger pointing.

JoAnna Smith,

Pietro is one of the more moderate thinking (said jokingly), left wingers on here:), I do not disagree with the rail lines creating jobs, I do have recourse with the word "MILLIONS", which I tried to justify in my statement above. Especially for a single rail line of Cleveland to Cincy. But on a broader index, MILLIONS of jobs could be created if these were to go nation wide. Besides, it would also help Al Gore and cleaning up the environment, because many of these run on electricity, which could be done cheaper and cleaner.

I do live by the old saying, "sticks and stones", and I even, unfortunately use some unkind words occasionally. Therefore, I can dish it out and take it.

What we as citizens should be doing is helping our elected officials to come up with solutions, not stalemating government because of parties. Until we take back our government as citizens, we can expect that same ole, same ole.

I do appreciate your comment as someone trying to bring reality to situations. I don't think Pietro is in a complete fantasy world, we all just have our opinions. Sometime we all over exaggerate them, "like I caught a fish THIS BIGGGGGGGGG"

Big bear - you can nit pick all you like. This is what this blog is for - to explore and validate ideas.

However, you have only considered a portion of what I am talking about.

-- You have not considered the companies that will be contracted to build the materials needed for the project.

-- You have not considered the number of people and companies that will be used to build every portion of those trains that will be used. Glass, iroworks, upholstery, electrical, signs, intercoms, seats, windows, bumpers, hoses, brakes, wheels, engines (multiple) - all will be generating jobs for the people in those fields.

-- You have not considered the companies that plan, abstract, and engineer the trains.

-- You have have not considered the people it would take to clear the land, the lawyers that it would take to get track rights, and we can continue from there - and that is just the PLANNING of this project.

-- You have added in the people who may service the high speed rail line, but you have not considered the extra cars a taxi company will need to service the demand, and not even the maintenance on those cars, as well as gas costs, and upkeep of the cars.

-- As far as hospitality is concerned, don't think that some chains aren't going to build new hotels that will be filled by tired travellers. Building new hotels involve architects, constructrion companies, not to mention extra people to actually run the hospitality places.

That is just the tip of the iceberg. We can go on if you like. and this is just the line from Cincinnatti to Cleveland, and there will probably be 3-5 stations built between the 3 cities. Each city will benefit from that high-speed line, and we haven't even touched on the municipal possibilities that emenate from a high-speed line.

The state of Virginia is completing a light-rail system that used stimulus funds to get it done. They cannot WAIT to build more lines. Now imagine if there was a high-speed line attached to that?

I digress. We are talking about Ohio, correct?

To quote a movie a saw recently - If you think pennies, you get pennies. if you think Dollars, you get dollars.

Big Bear, you are thinking pennies. Without even breaking a sweat, I have already proven that the numbers from your original post are UNDERSTATED because a high-speed rail line is a MONEY MAKER that many businesses will get business - and by extension, hire people to service that business.

This is what I meant by MILLIONS of jobs.

Again, am I wrong in thinking that? If so, then prove that I wrong.

Joanna is just mad at me because I busted her out once when I challenged her about having a conversation on some subjects. It is full of nice invectives telling me to 'get lost'. You never did answer my economic question because you couldn't fina a neat, snappy answer to my question.

The question was designed to be one that requires some thought. I wanted to know what YOU thought, not some talking point.

I still have the links to that post and will present it if necessary.

Joanna's anger doesn't bother me in the least. As you can see, she is really good at calling people names and sinking her fangs into people's posts. but I have never seen her actually talk about a subject with some give and take like myself and Big bear here.

Big Bear says I am wrong; I say that I am not. Big bear comes up with some numbers; I say he is understating the numbers he is posting. He says I am overstating the numbers.

We will come to some agreement - or disagreement - at some point, but I would rather debate with Big bear than waste my time with Joanna.

I am just sayin.

A very good outlook, Pietro if I do say so. I do remember that particular conversation. It must be difficult for her to try to carry on a conversation with you, since she is so ill prepared. But, I just don't think the anger is the least productive, do you poor Joanna?

BigBear, by definition, extending the rail project nation would increase the number of employed by it, but would also dramatically increase the costs. That seems to be something people like Pietro forget is that someone will have to pay for all these public projects they keep conjuring up in their minds. Pietro keeps talking about the "benefits" side of equation but forgets all about the funding side of it.

We've seen the failures before with these types of projects. The same arguments Pietro makes for HSR were made for Amtrak, so it's not really difficult to question and discard Pietro's premise for building HSR.

So Pietro, I'm certain with your projections and all the research you've done you won't have any problem with convincing the Obama administration to allocate that billion you need for your great job producing railroad extravaganza. Once you prove that the millions of jobs Ohio will reap from your 250 mile railroad, they won't have any reason to not do the same for all 50 states in the Union.

But excuse the rest of us when we think you're full of hot air.

Joanna, you can think whatever you like. That doesn't change the conversation, does it?

You make the ASSumption that the cost WILL increase for the project. Actually, you don't know for sure because the project hasn't been costed out yet (and if Gov-elect Kasich has his way, it will never be), so to say that the project WILL have cost overruns is, well, premature.

But then forward thinking has never been your strong suit, has it Joanna?

I stand by my post. I am saying that a $1.2 BILLION investment in high-speed rail will create MILLIONS of jobs, with many of the jobs being ANCILLIARY and SUPPORT jobs. In our little breakdown with Big Bear, I didn't even include the cost of procuring the land for the train stations, nor did I add in the cost of construction of those train stations, the tilework, the escalators, the concrete work, the roofing... and we can go on. As far as the railway is concerned, we have to consinder that the railbed needs to be made, the ties for the tracks have to me constructed (mostly concrete ties for high-speed rail), not to mention the miles and miles of track that hasto be laid, the grout that needs to be trucked in to prepare the railbed... and we can go on.

Railways are a BIG DEAL.

Unfortunately for Joanna, small minds really do NOT see the big picture.

Nor does she wish to, even in the face that she may be wrong in her assessment. Again.

Sad, really.

Pietro,

We at least agree that we would both like high speed rail lines. I prefer mine above the interstates, in monorail form. We both agree that it will create jobs, a lot of jobs. Our biggest disagreement is the fact that I don't see 1 rail line--from Cleveland to Cincy creating over a million jobs. I really don't think they would put to many stops in between, based on the fact that people are suppose to get their faster, and I would think a 250 mile rail line would be non-stop.

I will agree, however, that if they were expanding the lines to more than just Cleveland to Cincy, millions of jobs could be created. I just don't see how you get "MILLIONS" out of 250 miles of rail line. No matter how you look at it.

And another question, are we just retaining employees with this funding, or are we creating new jobs? Because how many engineering jobs are going to be created, with so little work these days, I would think that they would just retain those they already have.

And JoAnna has a good point. If it works, where will the funding come to continue expansion. Do we raise taxes, cut spending in other areas, or print more money? Is it going to be private sector transportation or public transportation? All things that need to be looked into.

Thanks for a great day Pietro.

Well Pietro, lets just say if your billion dollar 250 mile railroad produced millions of jobs, that would be one of the biggest benefits any project every made in the history of mankind. I'll guess I'll leave the snarky innuendo comments to you, it seems to be your pattern of debating, and we'll just agree to disagree.

You have a nice evening Pietro.

From poor JS1 "I guess I leave the snarky comments to you". This, Pietro, after a day of snark from Queen Snarky. It doesn't get more ridiculous than this, right? Which means, you win!

some things to consider:

What were the original economic justifications, projected daily patronage and ticket price vs costs, etc over its projected life for either the high speed rail line between cleveland and columbus or the low speed passenger line between chicago and iowacity and what were the dates of the original analysis. My point being that their are many existing infrastructure projects out there dealing with maintain, repair and travelor safety. that will also create/maintain jobs.. Why new infrastructure between these towns at this time? Hasn't cleveland recently been cited as decreasing in population and jobs? what attraction is there in iowa city or des moines that those from chicagoland have a burning desire to commute to at the speed of an auto? Haven't seen the 2010 census for Iowa yet but their is talk that iowa will lose a congressional seat.

With regards to job and material creation with a trickle down, to or whatever effect. Concrete would be a USA product, steel may or may not be, but probably a mix of domestic and foreign. The power trains and cars would probably be imported as france, japan and china would likely want to bid on such a project and be very competitive with any US builders. Electronics for the train controls, again no guarantee on the country of origin as they would likely depend who made the train cars. Ancillary and support equipment, again won't all be US made. As for labor? sorry, again not all wages earned will stay in the US. Project management would hopefully remain USA.

As for continuing operations and management, think multitasking by vendors as jobs will likely be contract bid to contain costs.

In a robust economy, perhaps such projects are justified, but today I think the $$$ are better spent on those projects that need repair now.

Jody, I think it's important that he go on television to tell his side of the story. Historically it's important. But I have to be honest, I can't listen to him. He's kind of sitting there with his shoulders shrugged like a man with little confidence in his decisions.

Not much to say about him anymore I don't think. He has to live with his decisions, especially taking Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld and Andy Card into his Administration. Evil evil people.

Jody, Iowa

Great post

Bush Revisionist Tour. Buy my book, former Pres Bush tells viewers, and you'll see. See what?

That is so hilarious; see Bush make a BIGGER FOOL out of himself!!!

It would be nice if he could bring himself to say--if I had known, I would have made a different decision--but of course, he cannot say that because his decision was made before 9/11 not after; 9/11 gave him his justification, he could sell an Al Qaeda/Saddam Hussein connection and America's traumatized state of mind, it worked with too many Americans. I was not one of them, I did not believe him then and I will not waste $35 bucks to buy Bush's revisionist sales pitch.

I was not one of them either because Bin laden didn't even consider Sadeem to be a Muslim since he killed and totured his own people.

Also, Two Years Before 9/11, Candidate Bush was Already Talking Privately About Attacking Iraq, According to His Former Ghost Writer

That would be the year of 1999.

[snippett]

'One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.' And he said, 'My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.' He said, 'If I have a chance to invade·.if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency."

This isn't a work of fiction like Klein's book.

http://crooksandliars.com/2005/06/10/3059

Bush is an ignorant sap and will go down in history as the worst President in the US history!!!

Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-NY) yesterday called for "a full, independent investigation" in to the possible "criminal use of torture" under President Bush. "I am outraged by President Bush's own admission in his newly released memoir that he personally authorized the use of waterboarding," Nadler said. Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz (UT) also said yesterday that he is willing to investigate Bush's use of torture.

Pat, I agree. It is fine for Bush to make his tour, I don't have to listen; history will judge him.

Hard to believe Beverly that the media ignored all the warning signs about Bush's plans for Iraq. Something not reported much was the fact that as the Pentagon burned on 9/11, Rumsfeld scribbled on a pad, "Judge whether good enough [to] hit S.H. [Saddam Hussein] at the same time. Not only UBL [Osama, or Usama, bin Laden]. Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related or not."

Jody;

Thank you and great post. Hard to argue against facts but they continue to try.

The republican/tea party agenda IS becoming more clear each day. The deficit for 2011 is estimated to be about 1.27 Trillion dollars. To get to a balanced budget the republican/tea party have to basically wipe out this deficit. Going to be hard to do when they keep on with their demand to keep the tax cuts for the richest 2%.

If they were to zero the current budgets on everything except Social Security (which does not effect the deficit), Defense, Medicare, Medicaid and Veterans Health Care they would be still 13-15% short.

I agree that there is a lot of waste in Medicare/Medicaid and Defense, but is it enough to balance the budget? There would have to be about 500 Billion (13% of proposed 2011 budget) there and everything else would need to be repealed like Unemployment/Food Stamps.

It should be interesting to see how that flys.

Odd how Obama said before his election ' Get out of the way and let me fix it" LMAO . Then it was Bush did it ' its his fault. NOW all I here from you libs is its Bushes Fault. How Original. I just read the SAME old lines . Bushes fault, Cars in the ditch, Race card, the evil tea party. Write something ,anything that you researched. Put your 2008 talking points down. This is 2010 Bush isent in office and the house has changed gaurds . Grow Up Please.

joe - they are too busy patting themselves on the back. ever see any of them post elswhere? Here on 1st read they can maintain a warm fuzzy feeling by consoling themselves. They do however give me a chance to reflect that "but by the grace of God, there go I"

Is it me, or is this a post by american patting himself on the back?

NDD:

Touche'. When you leave the door open some flies are bound to come in.

President Obama. THIS IS YOUR MOMENT. LISTEN TO YOUR SUPPORTERS. PLEASE. DO NOT EXTEND TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH.

I couldn't agree with you more Pat! This is precisely what I've been thinking over the last couple of days! President Obama MUST not CAVE on this issue!

He NEEDS to STAND FIRM and show the spine of steel he supposedly has!

Hell.. I don't care if he let's them ALL expire because approximately 60% of the population are to stupid to realize they have already received a tax cut from him!

We should be flooding the WH with e-mails on this!

Feisty red head...we keep telling you and your minons...THE JIG IS UP, THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES, AND THE FAT LADY HAS SUNG on your progressive, socialist movement! You can be as STAUNCH as you want, but it won't change the FACT that America will never let your kind turn this country into Socialists.

So, you can take your Keynesian economics, your "bleeding heart" and your beloved George Soros to some other unsuspecting country and try it there!!!

Feisty, this extending the tax cuts for the rich is v. troubling. I have a bad feeling in my stomach over this one. This issue deserves its own rally/protest. In front of the White House.

Pat;

I could not agree with you more. Great post. The time has come for our President to stand firm on his positions and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes there is a victory in defeat. The days of making concessions just to get nothing anyway are long gone. He has held onto that idea way to long and he should know better by now. The republican/tea party is not going to lift one little finger to help America unless there is something in it for them. That is what America just elected. We now have to live with it come January.

Good morning Feisty and Pat

President Obama. THIS IS YOUR MOMENT. LISTEN TO YOUR SUPPORTERS. PLEASE. DO NOT EXTEND TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH.

Ditto

Never go backswords Mr. President; your supporters will get you to 2012. Go forward Mr. President don't let this quaked up, "Hell Naw", republican, minority, sabotage yours and the peoples accomplishments. They run nothing but their mouths. NOTHING!!!

As Rachel said last night they are still the minority until the 112 Congress convenes.

Feisty, this extending the tax cuts for the rich is v. troubling. I have a bad feeling in my stomach over this one. This issue deserves its own rally/protest. In front of the White House.

Me too Pat & I'll meet you in FRONT of the White House!!!

And I know Bev will be there too! We can car pool! lol

In front of the White House. I'll provide hot hot cups of tea. We'll need it. We can't be silent on this one. I agree with you that we should all be flooding the White House with emails. I just don't think they're listening. We should do it anyway.

Feisty, Bevely, Vet, Pat, etc...You can have all the rallies in front of the White House you want to have, however it will not change the FACT that Americans understand that continuing to print money only devalues the dollar.

You keep calling them tax cutes for the rich; what they ACTUALLY are is a maintaining of the tax rates they are in place now. And all this bull the President is trying to sell us about it costing 700 Billion dollars over the next TEN years is just a scare tactic. It can't cost us money if the country wasn't ENTITLED to it in the first place. Do you really think overtaxing big business will work out well for the country?

BTW...they're listening, but thet KNOW that only 20% of the American people think the way you guys do. So, good luck.

I again apologize for my misplaced posts. My computer is doing crazy things today

In front of the White House. I'll provide hot hot cups of tea. We'll need it. We can't be silent on this one. I agree with you that we should all be flooding the White House with emails. I just don't think they're listening. We should do it anyway.

I'll take mine with extra lemon please! lol

The upside is it will be could enough to keep the mosquito's at bay... like the one that's buzzing around here!

*swats & reapplies Republican repellent*

The "real Americans" around here are working awfully hard to silence the voices of the Left. If the message didn't have substance it wouldn't rattle them so.

Perhaps it is time for liberals to tell the White House their views, e-mail whitehouse.gov. I do wonder though if the media and republicans are spinning us into thinking this simply because Pres Obama said he will listen.

You crazy lefties really do live in a bubble don't you? You can rant and rave about all of your socialist leanings, but when it comes to the tough questions you just avoid. LOL! You keep applying that repellant; maybe it will protect you from becoming infected with common sense. lmao!!!

What's wrong? Don't know what Keynesian economics are? ...didn't think so...again...lmao!!!

True -American:

You just keep tossing up your crap, do you have any ideas at all? Did you know that most countries if not just about all Industrialized Countries have a mixed economy that includes both capitalist and socialist agendas?? It was the so called "liberals" that people now refer to as socialist's that gave us Social Security and Medicare to name just two. So you propose that we do away with Social Security and Medicare for starters?? How is that going to work?

Retired...

Here's some repellent for you and STTS!

US Navy Disabled Vet...you are exactly right...the LIBERALS gave us Social Security and Medicare....how's that working out for you or the country?

I absolutely honor you for serving this country and I am all for my tax payer dollars going to fund the VA, but I do believe that every American should have the option to OPT OUT of these social programs. They take away from the individual spirit of SELF RELIANCE. We are a charitable nation, but we turn that into these social programs run by the "government" that fail miserable everytime.

BTW...Feisty, still can't answer the tough questions, huh? Don't get so excited, Retired was just asking my opion, I know that frightens you, but it will be OK, I won't steal him from your playground...promise...Ok.

Poor True American,

He/She doesn't realize that He/She has been living in a socialist country all his/her life. What do you think Medicare is? Or Medicaid? or Social Security? and on and on and on.

I admit I am getting tired of all the double-speak coming from the right-wing. Talking points and hot button words.

Do you guys get a preview of what Rush and Sean are going to be talking about so you can include that in your postings?

Have you EVER had an original thought or read a book or had a civil discussion with ANYBODY in your miserable, greedy, selfish, unhappy lives?

You have only to read your own posts to know what is wrong with this country. It is filled with a big mouthed minority, YOU. You are the tail, trying to wag the dog and barking out your anus the whole time.

Give it a rest until you have something worth reading.

Sheesh

Thanks for asking, TA. Social Security and Medicare have been the most successful programs ever at fighting poverty. Specifically;

Social Security reduces the proportion of elderly people living in poverty from nearly one in two to fewer than one in eight, according to a new study released today of Census data. The study found that in 1997, nearly half of all elderly people — 47.6 percent — had incomes below the poverty line before receipt of Social Security benefits. After receiving Social Security benefits, only 11.9 percent remained poor.

As a result, the study said, Social Security raised out of poverty more than one in every three elderly Americans. The program lifted 11.4 million elderly people above the poverty line.

Without Social Security, the study found, 15.3 million elderly had incomes below the poverty line. After Social Security, only 3.8 million elderly did. Three-fourths of those elderly people who would have been poor without Social Security were lifted from poverty by it.

The study, "Social Security and Poverty Among the Elderly," found Social Security's effects in shrinking poverty to be most striking among elderly women. Seven million of the 11.4 million elderly people whom Social Security lifted from poverty in 1997 — more than 60 percent — were women.

That from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1863

OF COURSE you want to opt out, TA. It's all part of the FYIGM mentality of the Conservative Movement. As presented above, however, you've been sold a bill of goods. Before Social Security it wasn't at all uncommon for the elderly to be in deep, crushing poverty, with barely enough to eat. Is that a picture Conservatives want to recreate? Certainly so, in the case of the wealthy elites who control the Conservative Movement. THEY have plenty. They don't care if YOU starve.

Have you EVER had an original thought or read a book or had a civil discussion with ANYBODY in your miserable, greedy, selfish, unhappy lives

Awesome Skip!

They are a rather demanding bunch... lol

As I mentioned to this troll last week - snapping your fingers will not get my attention!

If you have something constructive to debate... bring it... but all I've seen out of them so far is a whole lot of gibberish and school yard taunts!

True American wrote:

the LIBERALS gave us Social Security and Medicare....how's that working out for you or the country?

In general, quite well. Both of the trust funds financed some insane defecit spending by the Reagan-Bush mobsters, and in the meantime the health and well-being of many, many millions of Americans have been taken care of. You guys forget something: With minimal exceptions, the people getting the benefits PAID for them with their earnings. And we as a nation decided that the disabled should not simply be abandoned in the snow like "The Little Match Girl."

Liberals also gave the nation the Voting Rights Act, many other initiatives on Civil Rights, protection for labor, an imperfect but functioning system for food and drug safety, a rationalized currency, universal public education, public help to find jobs for the unemployed, access to advanced education for the middle and lower classes, the National Endowment for the Arts, the Centers for Disease Control, not only pro-active environmental protection but also sustained effort to restore habitats and poisoned air, water and land (how about that hexavalent chromium pollution coming back to Hinkley?), workplace safety, advanced auto engineering for safety, performance, efficiency, and reduced pollution, protection from rapacious and unrestrained exploitation by bankers and financiers, and far too much more to mention here.

Conservatives gave us unjust wars based on lies and deceptions, pollution of every kind, destruction of species, represssion and exploitation of women and children, streets thronged with homeless, crushing national debt burdens, armed thugs on every streetcorner, defective and unsafe products that companies complain shouldn't be exposed with lawsuits, incompetent and worse doctors who complain they shouldn't be exposed in lawsuits, hate crimes against gays, lesbians, and immigrants, salmonella in the eggs and listeria in the produce, drug companies protected from having to negotiate affordable prices, a health care delivery system that treats everything from sending bills to assembling records to any procedural step as an individual profit center, bloated Wall Street bonuses, an entirely unjustifiable disparity between executive compensation and average employees' pay, energy companies that manipulate energy supplies to hold entire states hostage for unsupportable rates, banks and savings institutions that consider their depositors' funds as the personal property of the executives and directors, and yet so much more of a dismal record.

So, True American, as far as many of us are concerned, the liberals have done well by this nation for more than a century. The conservatives should all be wearing balls and chins with striped suits.

Feisty

Awesome Skip!

They are a rather demanding bunch... lol

Yes they are for a group that can be so against the very things that have provide many of their livelihoods.

Socialism is good. Lets see what the Tea Baggers Delight is...

Affordable healthcare

Education

Safe food and roads

Decent wages

Police department

Fire department

Hospitals

Bridges

Libraries

Medicare

Medicaid

Public schools

Traffic lights

Street signs

Bridges

Laws courts

Armed forces

Just to name a few

But you know for them (Tea Baggers) they think things go better with Koch pronounced “coke"!!!

The Lies Are Too D^#@ Many

Pat, can't wait for you to start brewing the coffee.

Wasn't it Gore's infamous lock box that tried to stop raiding SS and Repubs want SS available to steal from?????? YES

If President Obama "wimps" and extends the wealthy tax cuts I predict his base (including me) will turn against him and he'll lose in 2012. I will not vote for a Republican, but I'll be hard pressed to vote for our President. How sad that would be.

With all your rantings, I see NOT ONE OF YOU responded to the question about KEYNESIAN economics. Must be too hard for you to defend. I see that all of you have drank of the kool-aid.

I guess all of you LOVE Presidents Wilson, FDR, & Lyndon B. Johnson too! Wow, do you even understand the concept of America?

TA;

First I am not collecting SS or Medicare yet. I am glad that those programs are in place because they have served millions of Americans well. Too bad that you want to take those away from the people since they are paying for them to boot.

Throw the people in the street, take away their medical benefits so I can have a bigger piece of the pie. How is that working for you.

Feisty: I need a hazmat suit for the STTS, the bug spray is ineffective.

And still the 1st read coffee club rants on. LMAO!

John A. ...your right, Liberals did give us ALL of those things; social program after social program. They tried to put everybody on the dol. They almost pulled it off too.

Why do all of you "americans" on this thread think it is OK for the government to force people to bend to their will? Why should Americans be forced to allow government to save their own money for them? Is it because we the people can't be trusted to save for ourselves? Hmmm... sounds like the government knows best.

You talk about unjust wars...I guess you would prefer to allow the enemies of America to just build on themselves until it's too late for us to defend our homeland? Maybe we should look to the Oklahoma judge that just inacted an injunction on the law that was overwhelmingly passed by american vote to restrict the courts from considering Sharia Law in it's decisions. Slow and insidious is the enemy and you would prefer to do what? You think the American way of life is not worth defending?

BTW...still waiting on ANY of you to respond to the question of KEYNESIAN economics.... I guess you need more time to get the brain trust together on that one. I'm sure they will come up with the perfect cut and paste articles from...let's see...Media Matters...Think progress...huffington post...LOL

Skip...I know it must be hard for you to understand the idea of SELF RELIANCE...you know the American way of life, but I would prefer to rely on myself, my family, my friends, & my neighbors than to rely on the government to take care of me.

It's people like you who are too afraid to rely on yourselves, your family, your friends, & your neighbors that is the problem. I have been more charitable than most people I know, I have spent countless hours volunteering, but when I read comments from people like you (who are supposed to be Amercan) it makes me question why I should continue to use my time and money helping others if the concensus is "just give all your money to the government and they will take care of everything"

Ture American, once again you revert to utter irrelevance.

I guess all of you LOVE Presidents Wilson, FDR, & Lyndon B. Johnson too! Wow, do you even understand the concept of America?

It is tempting to use your rhetorical methods and just reverse the statement on you - asking what you think the concept is. But in truth, I know what you think - basically an America governed largely by a political and administrative structure from the 1840's.

So here's more meat for this reply:

1. President Wilson by and large was an excellent President. He arrogated far too much power to the Executive during WWI, but otherwise did a very good job leading the country and guiding policy. His name is revered worldwide even now for his idealistic and hopeful vision of the postwar world.

2. FDR is one of the three greatest Presidents in history; the two who stand above him are Washington and Lincoln. FDR kept this nation from dissolving into social unrest and revoltuion during the Depression. A great many of the important institutions he established continue to serve the nation well today - foremost among them, Social Security.

3. LBJ was a much-flawed but very effective President. His leadership in getting Civil Rights action and Medicare was outstanding and earned him a better place in history than some other events of his time did.

Keynesian economics proved very effective during the Roosevelt Administration. We can debate that all you want, except that with you it's not a debate but a sloganeering exchange. So I shan't waste the time. I've posted on this in depth elsehere on the 'Vine.\

Oh, and as I wrote this you posted another extnded misrepresentation of history and fact.

"Unjust war" - oh, yes, and I don't just mean the post-9/11 events. But most definitely the Iraq War was a significant blunder as well as a crime against humanity - all thanks to conservatives.

As for the list of what the Liberals gave America - I guess you don't think it's proper for the government to protect our food supply, regulate dru use, prevent exploitation of women and children, and teh rest of that list. I think you are dead wrong on eery countr of your post. Take your Libertarian backwards views and live on an island. In this country we have a society, rather than just a bunch of wild wahoos out to see how they can exploit and abuse everyone else.

You just proved that you are utterly hopeless...Wilson was good, FDR was great and Johnson was...what did you say...oh yea...much flawed but very effective. Just admit it...you area socialist. It doesn't matter how many socail programs we have in place already, the point of America is to not have anymore. For the most part they don't work; they just lull the people to sleep bacause they know that the government will provide for them.

Did you really say Keynesian economics proved very effective? Effective for what? Roosevelts great plan to make us all socialist? You've posted in depth about this on the Vine? I would love to read that. Where are these posts? I've got to see them! .....lmao!!!!!!!!!!

Have any of you ever heard of Rome? Ancient Greece? Gosh, get a clue people.

TA -

You are incapable of understanding "socialism."

Here, I did my homework, you do yours:

A volume on the important reading list for anyone here who cares about the parallels and disparaties of the Great Depression and our current state is John Kenneth Galbraith's The Great Crash of 29. Also eminently readable and valuable is Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal: 1932-1940 by William Edward Leuchtenburg. You plough through those and pay attention, they are some of the primary sources for my posts. They are not hard to read as long as you understand an occasional compound-complex sentence and a few words of more than three syllables.

A PS for TA -

The political and economic policies that led to the current global crisis originated with Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics. They were adopted by Ronald Reagan and from there the race to the bottom accelerated. You have been brainwashed into embracing failure and misery. Reagan is only about the fourth of fifth worst President in history - although his regime was by far the most corrupt - but George W. Bush OWNS the bottom of that toilet.

John Kenneth Galbraith ...you've got to be kidding me...he was a Keynesian and an institutionalist. Come up with a real, unbiased source.

By the way, I understand socialism quite well, maybe you should check into it a little more.

William Leuchtenberg...come on man...Columbia University? Could there be a more liberal University in America...please. This is who you read for information on economic history?

Poor True American, once again you demonstrate your ignorance.

I have been working for nearly 50 years. Nobody ever gave me anything I didn't earn with my own two hands.

TA, tell me, when you retire will you rely on Medicare/Medicaid or will you have one of your freinds and neighbors prescribe drugs and then cook them up in your own home pharmacy?

Will you accept Social Security or have you buried enough money in your back yard (without paying taxes of course) to take care of you, your family, your friends and your neighbors?

For all of your demands that we ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS I think I'd like to know the answers to those two very simple, non-theoretical queries.

I'm going to bet if you're not already on Medicare, you will be and you won't hesitate to accept it. I'm going to bet that you'll look forward to Social Security check every month just like millions of others do (if you're not already on Social Security). I'll bet you've got a pension, maybe from the military or other job. I"ll bet your children (if any) went to public schools and you drive on highways built and maintained by someone other than yourself. You've been on public assistance of one kind or another all your life and so were your parents and probably your grandparents.

So, are you going to accept Medicare/Medicaid?

Are you going to accept Social Security?

If the answer to either of those questions is "yes", then shut up you Socialist.

Skip....where to start....

I have NEVER been on any social program/public assistance in my life.

I do NOT have a pension, but I do have a 401K.

I have one child who is now in College (freshman); we saved for her college education and she went to private school.

I have worked all my life and am still employed in the private sector today.

I have medical coverage through my place of employment (which by the way, just went up thanks to your Obamacare)

I will take my Social Security check, AS I WAS FORCED TO ALLOW THE GOVERNMENT TO SAVE FOR ME!

Neither my parents nor my grandparents took any kind of social assistance throughout their lives. My parents passed away at the ages of 61 & 63, so they never had a chance to collect on any of that money the government took from them. I guess someone else will get their share.

Does that about answer your questions?

John A....I guess you decided not to answer this question...typical.

I guess you would prefer to allow the enemies of America to just build on themselves until it's too late for us to defend our homeland? Maybe we should look to the Oklahoma judge that just inacted an injunction on the law that was overwhelmingly passed by american vote to restrict the courts from considering Sharia Law in their decisions. Slow and insidious is the enemy and you would prefer to do what? You think the American way of life is not worth defending?

Yep, you're a socialist. By accepting your social security check you're accepting membership in a socialist program.

Likewise, my daughter went to private schools that my wife and I scrimped and saved to pay for. She graduated from a private university Suma Cum Laude (I hope I spelled that right) and has her Master's degree.

We own our own home, have insurance through my place of employment, I have a 401K and assuming the GOP of our State Legislature doesn't take it away from me I will have a small pension as well as my Social Security when I retire in a few years.

While I do not consider myself a Socialist I do consider myself an American. The American system of Government is a mixture of Capitalist and Socialist philosophies and I think that is why it works better than most.

I am not rich. OUr household income is WEEEEEELLLLL below $250K a year. But I consider myself fortunate because I have much more than 90% of the worlds population.

So, True, I think you are as much a socialist as I am. We all are, because we are Americans.

Have a nice evening.

Skip, if you read my post, I said I will accept my social security check BECAUSE I WAS FORCED BY THE GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW THEM TO "SAVE" FOR ME.

It is my money!

Being a charitable nation is a good thing, but there are always people who want to turn charity into law. Forced charity is not charity at all; it is stealing!

No True, I read your great big letters and sensed your anger and frustration. (How did you get MSNBC to let you "shout", they never let me do that, they must be socialists too) But Social Security is still a socialist program and by accepting it you are, by definition a Socialist. Plain and simple. No big debate about keynesian economic theories here. You take the money, you get the title. Ka-ching.

Oh, and I live in the great state of Oklahoma and I can tell you there is no big rush to the courthouse here by Muslim co-litigants demanding that their cases be decided under Sharia law. There are no lawyers practicing Sharia law in Oklahoma.

That State Question was designed to pander to the electorate and their rage against all things islamic by our GOP dominated legislature. What the judge did was rational and appropriate.

Let's stay on topic here, You are a socialist, no question about it. Admit it, that's the first step to coming to grips with your problem. Just say it.

"I am True American and as such I am a Socialist...it's been X years since my last Socialist act."

There, now don't you feel better?

Wonderfully adroit as always Skip!

True American is probably the type of person who puts a dollar in the collection plate at church and tells the rest of the congregation that the church would go bankrupt without his help!

I can't help but wonder if True American chose that moniker because he/she needs to be somehow validated?

Does that make the rest of us False Americans?

True American is probably the type of person who puts a dollar in the collection plate at church and tells the rest of the congregation that the church would go bankrupt without his help!

Nah Julie... they sound much more like the kind of person who puts a dollar on the plate and then helps themselves to change!

Poisoning the well is one of the characteristics of TA's arguments. He insists on "proof", then dismisses any and all evidence as not meeting his standard. It's apparently far to difficult to refute with his own sources or build a case for his own position. "I must be right because you're wrong."

I am gonna jump in here and work to make it even more heated.

FDR--Although keep the country from a revolution, had many of his New Deal proposals declared unconstitutional.

As for Social Security--fine in the beginning, but far too reaching today. It was set up as a supplement to ones savings for retirement, not to be used as their retirement. I also know it is not going away. But needs to be reformed. In 1940, we had 154 workers paying for every 1 retiree, today, we have 2.9 workers for each retiree. Either we are going to raise taxes, cut benefits, or have NO social security. In an above statement, I have outlined a plan to reform SS, yet no one wants to argue or agree with my points. I guess it is okay to just keep the system the way it is, and go broke down the road.

LBJ--gotta love the conspiracy theories surrounding him. I love to believe them. As for the Great Society, how many generations have now known nothing but welfare of some kind. And the Civil Rights movement, he really had to give in after MLK was killed, to keep another civil war from starting. Which in some ways, is a pretty good thing.

But neither of the those Presidents planned for these programs to become such a burden on the government, at least I hope not. IF the government doesn't think we can save for ourselves, then they should save for us, but we should only get what we & our employer put in, not anymore or any less.

If the government wants to help people, then reform the great society and have steps that get people off the welfare and becoming self reliant.

Hope things heat up:)

Chuck,

And in case you missed it, Maddow Friday night called for Olbermann's reinstatement. And as she whined her way through her what-he-did-was-wrong-but-Fox-is-worse-so-reinstate-him-now complaint, MSNBC came sharply into focus.

My six year old tries to whine her way into getting what she wants, though it doesn't work. Maybe I should head MSNBC and enforce the rules. I'd even be happy with the pay raise (assuming it pays more than $250K) to pay the extra taxes.

CU Farley

It's like she and O'Donnell think they are writing the Gettysburg Address instead of hosting cable TV shows viewed by minuscule audiences compared to those watching Fox News.

FYI: more people watch Sponge Bob Squarepants than FOX NOISE!!!

Thank for acting like a kook by posting a link that french kisses your imagination.

Beverly in Chicago

FYI: more people watch Sponge Bob Squarepants than FOX NOISE!!!

Being that Fox draws millions more viewers than MSNBC, I guess that means The Care Bears outdraws MSNBC.

CU,

First came O'Donnell Friday morning announcing that he is a "socialist" with such gravity and self-importance he looked as if he expected the skies to part. But look at this video, and ask yourself where the pronouncement came from and what he was trying to prove by making it. He looks and sounds like a guy going over the edge.........

...What O'Donnell was saying is that everyone, including you, are socialists since you use the socialists programs that this country provides. Like the Post office, Public schools, Public transportation, The Police, Public hospitals and so on and so on. I know you are used to your mentors who takes one line out of a statement and twist it to suit their own needs. You have a need to say you are not a socialist, but if they try to take away your SS or medicare, you would be screaming bloody murder.

I am not sure who breaks out in laughter on the video,

That was Joe....since he knew what and why O'Donnell was saying what he did.

Stop listening to Beck, he lies.

The fact that fox draws more viewers reflects more poorly on right wing than left. Left wing does not need TV personalities to tell them how to think like the average beck-ette or dildohead

Gpots, The American People are smarter than you give them credit for. Actually your insulting the American people by making the Statement that the American people VOTE the way they did because of what was said on FOX, ABC,NBC, or CNN . Thats insane . I, like my fellow americans Vote and voted in the midterms because we dont like the Failed Policies of this current administration and Congress. I personally dont give a $hit what any news agency has to say. They have thier own agendas from the top down.

Keith had a great line last night. He said that in a very short period of time the world knew about his donations. He said if he would have given them to the US Chamber of Commerce, nobody would know.

Oh that wacky Keith Olbermann. He's such a card.

gpotts...

"Left wing does not need TV personalities to tell them how to think"...really?

Who do you get your news from? I'm dying to know.........let me see if i can sort this out.....Chris Matthews?.......Ed Schultz?.......Keith Olberman?.......Rachael maddox?......Media Matters?......Think Progress?.....Huffington Post?.......................... I don't know, I give up!... Do Tell!!!

Right on cue, Nash.

No one hits her mark better than you do.

Blame the electorate for the unpopularity of President Obama's agenda.

I could see this theme coming a mile away, and actually said as much prior to the election. Most First Readers couldn't see it coming because they couldn't even see the imminent rejection of the Democratic Party coming, let alone deal with the aftermath.

Smart politicians know that you can't make a living biting the hand that feeds you...President Obama needs to be very careful about what he says about the voters between now and the 2012 election.

It doesn't look too promising based on his initial reaction to the electorate's unambiguous rejection of the Democratic Party.

You can afford to be arrogantly contemptuous of the voters, Nash.

President Obama doesn't have that luxury...unless, of course, he's prepared to be the next one-term President.

Mixed Bag:

This doesn't have a damn thing to do with President Obama and what he does or does not say.

This is not a game to be won or lost or a made for TV movie.

This is not about criticizing "the electorate".

This is about who or what is running our country . . . and this just in . . . it ain't the people.

I'm with you Nashville. When will these so-called journalist stop looking at what is going on as a game. People are losing their jobs and their homes, but to Chuck Todd it is just one big game. Chuck, try looking at America through the eyes of the unemployed trying their hardest to keep a roof over their family's heads. When you get to ask the President a question, try thinking of one with substance instead of a a stupid "gotcha". Those numbers you are so fond of crunching, are people Chuck. The ones that won't benefit from your friend Bonehead's tax-cuts. Why don't you crunch the numbers about those tax-cuts and tell the truth instead of asking who will blink first. Why don't you try explaining to the people the pros and cons of those tax cuts... I would prefer to listen to that instead of wondering which side of the aisle will come out the winners. There are no losers in Washington Chuck. The losers are us.

*** Pelosi’s Defense: Outgoing House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (and soon to be minority leader) lays out a defense of the Democratic agenda the past two years in a USA op-ed.

Well that's real nice Nancy. You've proven once again how dense and detached you are from all of America, and you have re-affirmed how the country did the right thing in voting out the Democrats last week.

And Nancy, we want the gavel back. And that government plane you've been (ab)using, we want that back too. And neither of them better be damaged, else you're not getting back your security deposit.

Mixed bag - I will reiterate what Nashville_Fan has just said. This is NOT a game. You seem to think that the voters voted against President Obama's agenda.

That may be the case.

Just because you called it means that you called it. That's all. And so what? Just so you can say you were right?

In the meantime, we are going into a period of GRIDLOCK that will get nothing done in the next Congress.

People are still jobless. Homeless. Peniless. HURTING.

And all you care about is being right.

You need to get over yourself.

You are NOT that important.

Re-read your post, Nash...

Whatever else your pout is, it's an assault on the electorate. The smug speculation about why folks voted the way they did is utterly transparent. Then, there's the homily about fish being too stupid to outlaw bait...really, Nash?

C'mon...your anger towards the voters is palpable.

And that's cool...provided that you're honest about it.

Your denial is no more convincing than that of President Obama or Nancy Pelosi.

As usual Republicans are claiming a mandate FAR beyond that offered by the election. Over 60% of voters said their focus and anger were directed firmly at the bad economy. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/02/first-exit-polls-economy/ That hasn't stopped Republicans from claiming that they have a mandate for everything from closing entire departments within the government to demanding a new war with Iran.

Nashville. So true, well said. We are being spun a storyline that fits the media's agenda. Your headline is the honest one "What's next for the middle class?"

It troubles me that I watched the media enable former Pres Bush on every front and now I watch the media again fail the past two years by allowing the real message to be lost in trivial nonsense.

I called my Libertarian brother last weekend to congratulate him on his Tea Party candidate for Maine governor's win, and the Republican majority in the state senate and he said "thanks, but it won't make any difference anyway, the government can't do anything to improve the economy." From a man who hates Obama and all Democrats, that's he's reaction to his candidates wins. That's it, that's the nihilistic attitude of the far right. Jaded, destructive, pessimistic, anti-progress, that's the attitude of the far right. Why would any sensible person vote for them?

I offered the view on Election Day that gridlock was preferrable to the Obama agenda, Pietro...an assertion that did not go unchallenged.

However, judging from the 60+ seats Democrats lost in the House, the voters appear to have come down on my side of the argument, haven't they?

I get that you're unhappy with having completely misread the mood of the country, Pietro...but, write off your losses and move on.

Most of all...stop obsessing over what I have to say. If you've gotten one thing right (a questionable premise), it's that I'm not that important.

So..why not start behaving as though you really believe it, instead of reacting to my comments as though you're a subject in some sort of Pavlovian experiment, eh?

Mixed Bag:

If President Obama steps down tomorrow, that will be just fine with me.

You know why?

Because maybe then we can talk about the actual issues and not all these made up myths and bullsh!t talking points centered around President Obama.

This is about AMERICA, not votes, Presidents, polls, and "leadership positions".

It is about corrupted courts, paid off legislatures, making a profit off sick people, shipping manufacturing overseas, 24 hour propaganda brought to us by the "corporate people" who own every damn thing and remind us daily that if we don't do EXACTLY what they say, we will be punished.

I truly and honestly do not give a rats a$$ about which set of crooks is elected to Congress or who will be the next figurehead to sit in the White House and play the part of "President", mmmmkay?

President Obama has done what he could, and I thank him for his effort. But he is going to be just fine, as all the politicians and pundits will.

What about the rest of us? Being "angry" is nice, but I still haven't heard ANYBODY answer the simple question:

What is the prescription to make things better? How will that prescription be enacted in our current political system?

Anything that is not the answer to one of those questions is just a bunch of self serving bull.

And THAT makes me angry.

It's good to know that we can stipulate to your anger...if nothing else, Nash.

Again, Mixed bag - itis not about YOU.

Yuo called the mood correctly. Great. Congratulations. Pat yourself of the back. Smile at yourself in the mirror. Repeat 'I am RIGHT!!' 100 times and smile at yourslef in the mirror some more.

Feel better now?

Does it really MATTER that you were right, Mixed Bag?

It doesn't matter to me because I have better things to do than stroke your ego.

Now, we still have real issues to attend to, like: Unemployment. Gridlock. Homelessness. Governors killing jobs. investigations. The challenge to repeal of the Health Care law. Outsourcing. Unknown campaign contributions.

So who REALLY cares that you were right about an election, Mixed bag?

Pavlov was onto something, wasn't he, Pietro?

Conservatives contro the purse string the inept lying quasi socilaist in thw white house may as well get Micheel and gon on vacation, the only spending bills coming out ofthe house will be for basic spartan government.

What better example than above as to WHY the righties are ANTI-EDUCATION!

Positively painfull to read! lmao

j. wesley - and replace them with what?

Read anything about George Soro's lately? No I didn't watch anything about him on Glen Beck last night. This man ruined Englands economy in the 70s, (during which time he made 698 million dollars)was indicted in France for Insider Trading, owns a hedgefund that only the richest of the rich are allowed to invest in, and THIS man is giving economic advice to our country. He was quoted as saying that "its time for an orderly devaluation of the American Dollar" (Thats how he started in England in the 70s) Don't take my word for anything, Google him. Many posters on this site insist the republicans and Kock brothers are out to ruin the country, I'm not saying that is George Soro's goal, but he does have some strange ideas about the U.S. economy. I wonder why he wants the dollar devalued, that will only cause people that have been lucky enough to save some money to loose it.

HEY--------- John B--------- You want a mandate, here is one for you. Conservatives contro the purse string the inept lying quasi socilaist in thw white house may as well get Micheel and gon on vacation, the only spending bills coming out ofthe house will be for basic spartan government.

Bring it. Can't wait to see how that turns out.

I love it when Conservatives start their crazy talk about George Soros. It's the exact narrative the John Birch Society was spreading about Armand Hammer in the 60s and 70s. Now the sons of JBS cofounder Fred Koch have dusted off the same story and stocked it with a new bogeyman.

History will not look back well on this period when the Republican Party mainstreamed crazy.

I can tell you what is next for middle class if we continue down this path to idiocracy/TP....

Hint: Bite down hard because this ones gonna hurt

John B,

Unfortunately in the 60s I had not started school yet. So am very uninformed about the John Birch Society. But I will research it to find out what it was all about. The readings that I have done about George Soro's started about 10 years ago when I was stationed in England serving in the U.S. Air Force. Most Brits aren't a very big fan of his.

I'm not implying any sort of conspiracy at all. I'm just wondering why, our politicians both Republican and Democrat are listening to someone convicted of Insider Trading, accused of ruining British sterling (while making almost 700 million in the process) someone who says he has no shame in stealing Jewish property during WW II and last but not least in charge of one of the biggest Hedge Funds in the world for economic advice. He has made it clear that the dollar should be devalued. That could lead to economic growth but most serious economist disagree with that premise. It could also lead to inflation, I know a little inflation is a good thing, but how would it be controlled?

janet, I appreciate the dialogue on this subject. I'm pretty well acquainted with the JBS because I grew up in an area that was very active for them, including at least one member in my own extended family. I encourage you to also research Armand Hammer and see if you think the things said about him aren't very similar to the things being said about George Soros.

Devaluing the currency is a touchy issue. We've been conditioned to think of a "strong dollar" as always being a good thing. It sure sounds like a good thing. In reality it's a balancing act. A somewhat weaker dollar would actually strengthen our manufacturing base by making imports more expensive and exports cheaper relative to their the currencies involved. One of the big projects that would help us a LOT would be to convince the Chinese to decouple their currency from the dollar. It's an underhanded way of doing business, borderline in its legality, and ultimately creates instability in both currencies.

Good point, Wm. Now that would be worth watching--democrats on the offensive instead of playing defense.

jweasley:

And when the American business person f$#S up, then what?

When the banks go belly up, the coal mines explode, the oil rig collapses, the insurance you paid for is rescinded, your job shipped overseas, your food is tainted, and your government is sold to the highest bidder, then what?

When your wages remain stagnant but the price of everything else goes up, then what?

Your mindless criticism and smarta$$ comments don't solve a damn thing. Just a bunch of rah rah talking points completely divorced from reality.

The American Business Person has been given EVERYTHING they ever wanted, and now all we get is alot of pants wetting and asking for more.

And once its all gone, they will just find a new country to suck dry, leaving us with corporate fairy tales and for profit prisons as a growth industry.

Pathetic.

You know, I just LOVE j. wesley's logic.

ALL, we ever asked the inept lying quasi socilaist in the white house to do, was, don't spend money, sit down, shut up, stay out of the way, we'll call you, if we need you.

OK, fair enough. You have the House now, so you have every right to say what you are going to say, even if it is disrespectful.

All we ask of the conservatives is don't spend money, shut up, sit down, stay outof the way, we'll call you if we need you.

I see. Interesting. So we are correct in our assessment that the conservatives want the Government to do NOTHING - even when people are out of jobs and hurting.

OK. fair enough.

Then I ask the question - what if the conservatives DON'T 'sit down and shut up' like J. wesley and people like him want them to?

They can do that, or, in 2012, we'll remove them again.

OK, Mr. or Mrs. conservative, your conservative representatives did NOT do what you wanted them to. So what are you going to replace them with?

Democrats?

Independents?

Tea party members?

Aliens?

Does anyone else have issue with logic like this?

Is it any wonder why when we go conservative in our government that we get NOTHING done and more people are in the street with NO MONEY?

Thanks, J. Wesley, for articulating what we have known to be true.

I can't help noticing the contrast--when Democrats won majorities in both houses of Congress and had a landslide victory for the Presidency Republicans were justified in doing everything within their power to keep them from doing anything. Now Republicans hold a smaller majority in ONE house of Congress and Democrats are commanded to "sit down, shut up, stay out of the way, we'll call you, if we need you." Sorry weasley, not going to happen.

jwesley. Newsflash. I would like to move all the people like YOU to your own country except that unlike you, I recognize that this great country is a wonderful mix of people and ideas and that all those ideas combined are what makes us great. A one view, one party country is a dictatorship.

But Jody, you were okay with the Democrats (one party) controlling both houses and the WH right?

Jwesley-Ask her about her plans for opening a retirement/rest home for people who advocate the killing of anyone who offends Islam. It takes a "special breed" to snuggle up to aging Jihadists.

jwesley:

You are a parrot of right wing talking points. The majority of U.S. corporations pay ZERO taxes.

Look it up if you can.

I don't need your approval or permission to call it like I see it.

Apparently, corporate corruption doesn't bother you. I guess us "human people" are just "collateral damage" when business folk F-up.

And we had two terms of President Bush, and a Republican Congress for 6 of those 8 years, and all the regulations were relaxed and the taxes were cut and guess what?

The deficit exploded and we got to bail their greedy a$$e$ out.

jweasley, you don't have the mental strength to deal with folks who aren't just like you, so instead you seek to "corral" and "remove" them.

Too bad for you that I am not going anywhere and I am not afraid of folks like yourself who hide behind lies and right wing fantasies because they cannot deal with reality.

Vote Dem Out. That's not what I said there skippy--and if you read some of my old posts, you will see I often said we need both parties, both ideas. Were you complaining when Bush and the GOP held the House, Senate and White House for 6 years? My frustration came not from republicans in the House and Senate but from their unwillingness to work together. Gingrich for all his bluster came to realize that the only way he and the country could succeed was by compromising with President Clinton.

The wealthy won the election with the majority of the electorate screaming and waving the flag behind them, now the Republicans can get back to the destruction of the nation and it's inhabitants full force, well except for the wealthy inhabitants that is, next on the agenda "entitlement reform", ah yes the elimination of those safety nets for the less fortunate, why?, because that money could be better used shoring up the safety nets for the wealthy of course, I could go on all day but it's pointless, the class war that the rich have been waging for years on all fronts against the poor and middle-class is finally over, the rich won, what is disappointing to me is most in this country refused to acknowledge this war even existed and don't realize what has been lost, yet.

jwesley:

Have you ever noticed that you talk alot but don't say much?

I have.

Since you are incapable of answering questions and you don't listen to "libruls", enjoy the attention you are getting by showing your a$$ here at First Read.

Something tells me you are not quite so epic in the real world as you are in your own mind.

P.S. I love how all you care about is yourself and money. Very telling.

"taking huge amoopuntsof our cpital investment money with them."

If those were actually words I might be inclined to tell you to go ahead. You'd think such a successful capitalist would be able to string enough words together to form a sentence. Who knows, maybe even a coherent argument.

Something tells me you are not quite so epic in the real world as you are in your own mind.

Well... one things for certain... jweasily... is NOT in the bizness of spelling, grammar or punctuation! lol

That last post of theirs is ONE hot mess!

Feisty, John, and Nash

Something tells me you are not quite so epic in the real world as you are in your own mind.

One more thing; he probably doesn't pay his workers much either and has lots of violations that's why he left communist Chicago. Da Mayor is death on regulations; yup; you know Daley will get his boys on you when you don't pay up. LOL!

FYI: Every city has neighborhoods that need facelifts.

By the way, the last quarter of 2009 saw more than double the number of people cede their citizens hip and leave the USA, than in all of 2008.

taking huge amoopuntsof our cpital investment money with them.

Doggone it libs, looks like no one wants to pay for your handouts.

One citizen, I'd like to see take his capital investments, including Glenn Beck, and leave the USA is Fox Noise owner Rupert Murdoch.

wesley and farley couldn't team up and run a lemonade stand...they talk about socialism/marxism/muslim etc....when it is quite clear to everyone they know nothing about any of these...if they did they would remind us that socialism has never existed in the real world (only on paper, just like democracy) and that professing to be christian is all that is required to BE christian (according to bible) and when taxes go up in your county it is not Obama's doing and that it is Republican policies that help ONLY corporations BUT 85% of american jobs are in small businesses which Obama has extended credits, 100% relief on capital gains taxes....etc I could go on but the day is short

Vote Dem Out - he needs the help from the House of representatives and the Senate to do what you are asking. From what I am seeing, the things that you are asking President Obama to do - getting people back to work, off welfare and unemployment, etc. - will not happen when the Congress' objective is to make sure President Obama fails.

Amen my brother, Amen!...however, I'm not so sure I want him to spend more time in the White House "doing his job" ...afterall, it seems he has turned his "job" into something far from what the America people expected it would or should be.

Well, I'm hopeful that Obama will not shut the Republicans out like he has in the past. We all need to learn to get along if America is going to get out of this mess. He needs to be more open to others' ideas rather than slam them because they are part of the "other party."

Calling Americans "the enemy" certainly isn't very presidential either, so I truly hope that last Tuesday was a wake up call so he can begin the healing process and learn to get along with those who don't support him 100%.

Vote Dem Out!!

I hope to see Obama spend more time in the WH doing his job - and less campaigning. He needs to start working on getting people back to work, off welfare and unemployment, securing our border, and bringing the troops home.

In Other words you want him to clean up the mess the previuos administration left him?

Well he has brough 100k troops home from iraq, and has given the afgans a ultimatume. he stoped the hemerage of jobs 16 months ago (remember nov, dec 08 and jan 09 we lost 600k each month)

Vote Dem Out, we have not heard from jan brewer lately have we, this whole immigration issue was a ploy to get her relected, when she started this crap she was down 15 points in the polls, once she was up 20 points, she acomplished her mission and shut the hell up.

Vote Dems out, i'm glad the republicans got control of the house back Now they can clean up the mess they left 2 years ago. you know only the person who caused the mess is the best the clean it up.

Jeff, we all know that both parties are to blame for the mess we're in.

Obama's job is to fix it - no matter who did what. He wanted the job, he got the job. Either start performing or get out. If he's going to continue to point fingers and blame everyone else, then the decision in 2012 should be very simple.

Vote Dem Out!!

Jeff, we all know that both parties are to blame for the mess we're in.

Obama's job is to fix it - no matter who did what. He wanted the job, he got the job. Either start performing or get out. If he's going to continue to point fingers and blame everyone else, then the decision in 2012 should be very simple.

Well its like you said both parties are to blame, the democrats for trusting the bad intelligence bush brough to them about WMD. Not fighting harder to stop or lower the cost for the bush tax cuts, medicad part D, and most of all not yelling at the tops of the lungs that we were managing the war in afgan so bad that we may never get out of there.

the republicans for trusting the rich to trickle jobs back to the middle class with the tax cuts we gave them. it did not happen.

Jeff, go check out youtube. The Dems were spouting off about the WMD long before Bush took him out.

They need to work together rather than continue to blast one party or the other. You're not helping your country anymore by doing the same. The votes were cast, they were counted, and the Republicans gained seats in the House. Let them do their job now. If they don't, we'll vote them out. Same with Obama. He's had 2 years - he needs to man up and take responsibility too.

Jeff and Pietro,

Hasn't he had 2 years with a democratic congress to fix this? Why hasn't he?

Vote Dem Out!!

Jeff, go check out youtube. The Dems were spouting off about the WMD long before Bush took him out.

Yes that spouting off was based upon the inteligency Bush, chenny and powell had given us. i my self though they had them because the CIA said they did. so again who does that fall on, the CIA and the head guy. Now do you think like i do that the Bush administration altered the reports to make it look like the had them.

YES!!!!!!

why do people think that control of congress means you can do whatever you want???? Isn't it clear, after the last two years that the minority can obstruct. Having majority doesn't mean other side goes home... the system is purposely set up to guard against majority absolutism...(tyranny of the majority) so please quit insisting that Obama has had COMPLETE control......NOPE Repubs have been honest about one thing.....good for country or not they will block anything coming out of WH (traitors)

Chef Darrell

Jeff and Pietro,

Hasn't he had 2 years with a democratic congress to fix this? Why hasn't he?

Yes and roosevelt had a democratic congress for his first 4 years and could not end the depresson, so what your telling me is that you wanted the president to do in 2 years that roosevelt could not do in 4 given the economic mess was as as worse as the depresson.

I know you people believe in black magic but being black does not mean you can perform black magic.

GET REAL!!!!!!!

1) Put down the crack pipe.

2) Apples to apples. Roosevelt was a vastly different era than today.

My post was a rebut of the notion that the president won't be able to do anything because of the obstructionist republicans. He has had 2 years of a stacked deck, so why couldn't he have gotten done the things you say won't be able to happen?

Who exactly are "you people"? Independents? Veterans? Midwesterners? College graduates? Who exactly?

One more time--they pay no federal income tax because they don't earn enough money, they barely make enough to meet the basic needs; they DO PAY payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes. Instead of being so supportive of those making half a million a year, how about asking why it is so many hard working Americans of every race, and political affiliation are just getting by and what we can do to change that.

Well, Kavika, the Republicans/Tea Party have control of the House where the Tax laws are written... so maybe we will see them do the right thing and 'fix' the Tax code?

The government forgets they have no money; they have OUR money and we expect them to use it in a responsible way.

What's the cost of letting a permanent underclass just continue to exist without making any attempt to help them, weasly? They could be providing useful labor to the nation if they were trained to work a job. They could contribute ideas, enthusiasm, and even inspiration if properly educated. By making the whole of the country stronger the nation itself might prosper.

Nah, just let 'em rummage through the garbage cans of the rich. Throw away the elderly once they've worked until their backs give out. If people don't have enough money to school their kids it sucks to be them. That's the way.

j.wesly, greed, the lust for "more money" can be a great burden, life can be so much more than a fixation on how to screw someone out of that next buck, I pity you.

Repubs believe that only the chosen few deserve protection as americans..... the funny part is...the idiots posting here aren't in that group, they just think they are. If they took the time they would realize that Dems are helping small businesses that emply the most....100% exemptions from CG taxes, easier credit, relief from credit(in special cases), increase tax cuts for new equipment etc... the list is huge, check code if you are skeptical....I am amazed at the amount of dis-information WOW

Actually Conservatives were elected because people are angry about the slowly recovering economy. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/02/first-exit-polls-economy/

The economy isn’t just the most important issue to voters this year – with unemployment hovering around 9.6 percent, it’s roughly twice as important to them as the other top issues of concern combined, according to early exit polls.

I urge Conservatives to bellow loudly and do everything within their power to ram through their agenda, however. That should be interesting.

J wesley - you keep saying that, but replace them with WHAT?

I must say watching the Republicans cheer and flail their arms about in the air about their victory when that victory will bring nothing but grief and despair down upon themselves most peculiar indeed, a truly American event.

Cu: ...hey, 2012 is coming and between now and then at least we've got the opportunity to 'contain' this fraud narrcissist in the WH and all of his progressive/communist buddies. Of course right now he's running all over embarrassing us to the world once more. Western Europe is furious with him, he stumbles over the words al qaeda, Islam, etc. and of course George Soros is the biggest problem behind the empty suit which who can really contain that guy??? But, we're trying.

I'm with you guys all the way. Can't wait for 2012!!!

"HELL the republicans could have won one seat and made a big deal out of this . they polarize every little accomplishment they do ,and pat themselves on the back . sence i sobered up when REGAN GOT IN OFFICE in the 80,s this has been happening."

I believe it's time to start drinking again, cheers.

sorry just got back . anyhow BUSH great name something to be proud of. I would start drinking again but I wouldn't want to miss though republicans on the floor making love to each other[ ps maybe you should have went back to a drink instead of using though psych meds your daddy's psychologist gave you]

Rob: I would have voted libertarian more but I was afraid of splitting the vote and it was absolutely essential that we unseat as many Dems as possible to "contain" this pres and the leftie elitist libs.

I agree. I had the same intentions when I got there. but then saw Libertarian on the ballot and went straight ticket. As a registered Republican I still can't trust whether they really understand the message of 2006 and 2008. Until they actually propose some real ways to limit the size of our government, like opening the USPS to competition, for instance, then I'll be reserving whether I door knock for the GOP or Libertarians in the future. The GOP needs to propose some real cuts then force Obama to veto it. Then we'll see who really believes in limited constitutional government.

One more thread showing in Tucker Carlson's carefully crafted public image, each one revealing him to be a small, petty, despicable human being.

Why should anyone be surprised? From Breitbart to ALL of Fox to the Republicans who still consider David Vitter one of their own the Conservative universe is nearly devoid of ethics.

John, I'm not one bit surprised. He has always been a mean spirited self-centered jerk. Always.

Do you have a legitimate sources link to this, other than the left-wing website?

VDO:

From Huffington Post.

UPDATE: The text and headlines of this article have been changed to reflect Tucker Carlson's admission that he sent emails posing as Keith Olbermann.

You want a legitimate source? Like who? Think Progress is as legitimate as you're going to get. Which doesn't fit the GOP narrative. Lol.

I really disliked his cockiness when he was on MSNBC and Tucker's bow tie as well as that smart aleck look on his face. He probably used Keith's name to get back at MSNBC for letting him go.

He could never be a straight shooter because his ego gets in the way. Senator Paul Simon of Illinois always wore a bow tie which was distinguishing and a good public servant. Tucker, as I saw was the hallmark of a jerk. I hope he doesn't think his bow tie makes him a Paul Simon.

Huffington Post is considered legit? Never mind, Pat. Thanks anyway.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101109/cm_yblog_upshot/fake-olbermann-emails-sent-to-philly-columnist

VoteDemOut: No, I don't consider Huffington Post legit. But when you come across these articles, the key is to go to the original source, which is neither HP nor Think Progress. And it appears Carlson admitted he sent the emails.

You're welcome.

Maybe Tucker C. should be suspended without pay????

Maybe they should suspend Tucker for a couple days. Looks like he punked Olberdouche but good.

maybe they should send tucker to congress

Let's hope not...

I knew someone would come along and repeat that Conservative lie. The same subjects come up from the Righties on a clockwork basis. Apples to apples government workers make LESS than private sector employees.

With unemployment in the region lingering at record levels, and job security a wistful memory for many, it’s easy to look for scapegoats. Thus a familiar refrain--government workers are overpaid, and our tax dollars are going towards outsized benefit and salary packages--has come back again. But as with most scapegoating, there’s not much truth to the accusation: the reality is just the opposite. Once age and education are factored in, state and local workers actually earn less, on average, than their private-sector counterparts. The wage penalty for state and local government workers in New England is close to 3 percent.

http://www.physorg.com/news203874436.html

Number of government employees making $150k + has doubled under the Obama administration. He's redistributing the wealth alright - right into his own government pockets.

It's quite obvious he really doesn't care about the middle class. He won't even listen to them.

We'll see if he's serious about changing Washington or not. He ran on that and won. Now let's see him change Washington, not America.

John B....are you out of your mind "Apples to apples government workers make LESS than private sector employees"

Maybe you haven't checked, but in the last several years, the number of government employees making $150,000 or more has gone from roughly 7,400 people to 82,000 people.

Get everybody on the government payrolls; that's the plan... and then what? Who will pay for all of your social programs John? There won't be any ordinary self reliant Americans left to take care of you...Allo fthose poor, poor, government workers.

I presented my evidence, where's yours?

Your Reduction ad Absurdum argument is most amusing. Liberals want a higher level of government employment than do you, therefore we must want EVERYONE working for the government. A 5 year old could see through that one.

If your American, you accept governence by the Constitution. The Constitution does not allow for the forced participation of American citizens to purchase under penalty of law (by way of fines) anything. It's bad enough that we are forced to allow government to take our money so that they can "save" it for us. Now, they want to force us to buy their "approved" products.

It's called the Commerce Clause, TA. You might want to study the Constitution you claim to love so much, as well as the associated law that's been created around it for the last 200+ years.