This is HILLARYOUS!!!!

Lefty loudmouth Olbermann who makes a living whining about evil, bad, unethical, Republican’s and “teabagger’s” gets caught in a workplace ethics scandal, and PMSNBC’s punishment is to give him a long weekend off??

Maybe next time he gets caught PMSNBC will get tough and they will write him a stern letter telling him he has been a bad boy and threaten that if he gets caught a third time he will have to stand in the corner of his office for an hour.

What a joke!!!!!!

From MSNBC.com:

Keith Olbermann's suspension from msnbc television for donating to three Democratic campaigns will end this coming Tuesday, NBC announced Sunday night.

Olbermann was suspended indefinitely Friday for violating NBC News rules about donations.

(Msnbc.com, a joint venture of NBC Universal and Microsoft, also has a policy against its journalists contributing to political campaigns.)

In a statement released Sunday evening, Phil Griffin, president of msnbc television, said he had deliberated about Olbermann’s status for several days.

“I have determined that suspending Keith through and including Monday night's program is an appropriate punishment for his violation of our policy,” Griffin said. “We look forward to having him back on the air Tuesday night.

GW Bush Tax Cuts revisited: Today November 8, 2010 – 729 Days to 2012 Election – and “America is Watching”

Now that the House is in the control of the republican/tea party one of their big pushes is the Tax Cuts again. Back in October I posted about the lies that the republicans were spewing about the tax cuts and it is time to review these again.

When the GW Bush Administration took office the National Debt was at $5.73 Trillion Dollars. When he left, the National Debt had increased to $10.63 Trillion Dollars, an increase of 85%.

When Clinton’s Administration left office they left a $86.4 Billion Dollar budget surplus and created 23 million jobs with a tax rate higher than today’s. Under the Bush’s Administration of mismanagement and incompetence, they left America with a One Trillion Dollar deficit. This is the deficit that our President Obama has inherited and is still dealing with 21 months after later. These are facts from a party that claims “Fiscal Responsibility”.

David Stockman (previous Regan – “Budget Chief”) said the "debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts." The next day, the former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan, who famously helped sell the 2001 Bush tax cuts to Congress, declared them simply "disastrous. Google it yourself, these are facts.

After all, the national debt tripled under Ronald Reagan, only to double again during the tenure of George W. Bush. And as it turns out, the Bush tax cut windfall for the wealthy accounted for almost half the budget deficits during his presidency and, if made permanent, would contribute more to the U.S. budget deficit than the Obama stimulus, the TARP program, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and revenue lost to the recession - combined. Of course, you'd never know it listening to the leaders of Republican/Tea Party.

Lie #1: Democrats Plan Across the Board Tax Hikes on January 1st

First the Democrats did not plan anything. The tax cuts were signed into law (via reconciliation) by President Bush and his administration; they imposed the 10 year time frame. When the time runs out in January, and the cuts expire, everybody will get a tax increase back to President Clinton’s schedule, but this is on the Republican Party, NOT President Obama. And President Obama’s plan will only increase the taxes on the 2% that got 50% of the benefits last time (on Taxable Income for a family over $250,000, they will keep the tax cuts for under the 250K ceiling). This increase will be 3-5% depending on bracket, and again it only applies to those taxable dollars over $250,000.

Lie #2: Tax Cuts Pay for Themselves

The new CBO data show that changes in law enacted since January 2001 increased the deficit by $539 billion in 2005. In the absence of such legislation, the nation would have a surplus this year. Tax cuts account for almost half -- 48 percent -- of this $539 billion in increased costs." How about the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget? Their budget calculator shows that the tax cuts will cost $3.28 trillion between 2011 and 2018. How about George W. Bush's CEA chair, Greg Mankiw, who used the term "charlatans and cranks" for people who believed that "broad-based income tax cuts would have such large supply-side effects that the tax cuts would raise tax revenue." He continued: "I did not find such a claim credible, based on the available evidence. I never have, and I still don't.” And guess what, we Democrats do not either. This lie has also been exposed on Fact Check, and most major news outlets including the ones documented above. Tax cuts do not raise tax revenue, they add to the deficit which adds to the National Debt. This kind of blows the Republican/Tea Party argument that they want to lower the deficit and National Debt but keep the Tax Cuts which will do just the opposite.

Lie #3: Expiring High Income Tax Cuts Will Hurt Small Business

Of course, they're not talking about small business. As CNN concluded in October 2008, "fewer than 2% of small business owners would pay more under Obama's plan." But in case there was any doubt about the Republican/Tea Party’s' deception on the point, the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center quickly put it to rest:

“Out of 34.7 million filers with business income on Schedules C, E or F, 479,000 filers fall into the top two brackets, according to an analysis of projected 2009 filings by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

The other 34.3 million - or 98.6% - would be unaffected by Obama's proposed rate hike”. It has also been exposed on MSNBC, CNN, etc., that the Republican/Tea Party has a very unique definition of Small Business. It is NOT the mom and pop store, small local manufacturer, local convenient store or restaurants, etc that we think of as small business. Their definition has nothing to do with Revenues or Employment numbers BUT on how many owners. The Republican/Tea Party includes such companies as Bechtel (Billions in revenues), Chicago Tribune, Hedge Fund Companies, Fortune 1000, and a bevy of others with 100’S of Million of dollars in revenue. There is an old saying that “figures do not lie but liars figure.” This is a perfect example of how the Republican/Tea Party plays very loose with the facts, creating their own little reality that has nothing to do with 98% of the population.

And there are other lies like Estate Taxes Destroys Small Family Farms. This is another outright lie. Under President Obama’s plan there are about 100 such farms that would be eligible, under the Lincoln-Kyl proposal this would drop to 40 for those that have an estate greater than $5,000,000 (Five Million). So those that may be exposed the tax would apply to values over 5 Million. No estate tax on the first 5 Million. So far, there is no record anywhere that any family farm has even paid an estate tax.

Another favorite is that Tax Cuts for the richest 2% will stimulate the economy.

As reported on a Bloomberg News web site yesterday a new Moody Report answers the question do the richest people put the tax cuts back into the economy? From one of my previous posts:

The entire article was on Bloomberg News yesterday 9/13/2010 and may be accessed there.

Excerpts from Bloomberg News article

“Hand the wealthiest Americans a tax cut and history suggests they will save the money rather than spend it. Tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 under President George W. Bush were followed by increases in the saving rate among the rich, according to data from Moody’s Analytics Inc. When taxes were raised under Bill Clinton, the saving rate fell.”

“Some economists voice caution about the promised effects of a change in tax rates. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office in January analyzed policy options and possible short- term effects on growth.”

Comment: The CBO and other economists agree that tax cuts for the richest 2% has the lowest effect on the economy when compared to other programs. If I remember correctly, they compared about a dozen programs, and the tax cuts for the top 2% was at the bottom.

“Policies that temporarily increased the after-tax income of people who are relatively well off would probably have little effect on their spending because they generally would be able finance their consumption out of their income or assets without such a change,” CBO director Douglas Elmendorf testified to Congress on Feb. 23.”

“On the other hand, tax relief for families with “lower income, few assets and poor credit would probably” spur spending, he said. Elmendorf said because of job losses and a drop in assets over the past two years more families “probably fit that description now.”

And just this Sunday on ABC’S “This Week” we have the following dialogue between C. Amanpour and Rep. M. Pence (R-IN).

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/11/07/stockman-wall-street-taxes/

“This morning on ABC’s This Week, host Christiane Amanpour asked Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) whether he considers it “fair” that the richest Americans should get an extra tax cut.

“What’s not fair,” Pence responded in defense of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, “is that you would actually allow a tax increase on job creators.” Former Reagan Budget Director David Stockman, who ushered in one of the most sweeping tax cuts in history, rejected Pence’s argument:”

David Stockman said; “Two years after the crisis on Wall Street, it has been announced that bonuses this year will be $144 billion — the highest in history. That’s who’s gonna get this tax cut on the top, you know, 2 percent of the population. They don’t need a tax cut. They don’t deserve it. And therefore, what we have to do is focus on Main Street.”

Oh so TRUE Beverly!

Listening to the so called Repubicant leaders taking a victory lap on all the Sunday morning shows would have been hysterical if not so incredibly scary!

They are SO out of touch with the claim this election was a mandate for them to continue their agenda of Just Say NO!

When in reality it was a mandate to STOP the bickering and get people BACK to work!

Bonus points to the GNOP for admitting they will not be able to repeal HCR even though there were a lot of them that ran on that very premise!

Only proves just how gullible the low information voters really are!

The republican/tea party won't tout. 1.1 million jobs were added to the private sector by the President's agenda. Last year unemployment was 10.6% in October. 9.6% is not all that great; but if the net gain is positive. It saved a great depression.

What i meant by decoding the coded language is the way people like Palin, Angle, Cristine O'donnel rased millions of dollars bashing the President and the government and theystill lost.

The Humphrey–Hawkins Full Employment Act), is an act of legislation by the United States government.

Furthermore, Congress encouraged the government to develop a sound monetary policy, controlling inflation and pushing toward full employment by managing the amount and liquidity of currency in circulation.

As a last resort, Congress believed that unemployment could be temporarily relieved by the creation of government jobs as they did during the Great Depression.

Finally, Congress sought to involve more elements of the federal government in the economic policy process, and to clarify the role of those elements that were already involved. In particular, the central bank of the United States, the Federal Reserve, and the Presidency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey–Hawkins_Full_Employment_Act

So why are these patriots running away from the law of the land? If the market wil create jobs with tax cuts, why wasn't any jobs created for the 8 years under Bush ii?

India trade will sell our products. That's all good.

Unbelievable that the GOPTP has representated themselves as the "responsible adults" in the room when they are threatening to totally destroy the credit rating of the United States!!! These are not responsible people, these are extremists who have the potential to destroy the future of this great nation by doing something that has never been done before in our history...default on debt. Is this really the action of a "center right" group of individuals? Not at all, the GOPTP has become an extremist group with seriously twisted ends. I guess now we know why they were so reluctant to reveal their agenda before they were elected. "Just trust us." Yeah, right.

As I have said in the past, this is typical Republican/Tea Party rhetoric. They will shut down the government, deny any responsibility for the world wide destruction it will create and then blame President Obama.

We have seen this tactic for the last two years. The republican/tea party has little to know shame sometimes. They still refuse to accept responsibility for two unfunded wars, two unfunded tax cuts, and a unfunded prescription drug plan in addition to lowering regulations on businesses like oil and mining and wall street that created the mess we are in. They also forget that a big portion of the current deficit is directly linked to the previous administration, not President Obama.

This is just what they do, playing on the current fears and anger of the American People to buy elections wit their support from the US Chamber of Commerce, American Crossroads and a bevy of other "Special Interest Groups" that funnel huge amounts of money to the right with no disclosure at all.

I am still waiting to see what their agenda is for the #1 issue according to the exit polls, The Economy".

It is Monday November 8, 2010, 729 days until the 2012 election. The republican/tea party has been a little slow in coming forth with their agenda on exactly how they are going to lower the deficit, national debt, create jobs in the United States (not China or India), etc. One would think that they would have had this all figured out before the elections this past Tuesday. What are they hiding this time?

The proposed budget for 2011 is about 3.8 Trillion dollars with a deficit of 1.27 Trillion. To balance the budget, we will need to carve out 33% of the proposed budget (1.27 Trillion). What are they going to cut of the budget?

Currently entitlements like Social Security (19.64%), Defense (18.74%), Medicare/Medicaid (20.98%) and Interest on the National Debt (4.63%) which comprises about 64% of the budget leaving 36%.

Popular programs like Unemployment / Food Stamps accounts for 16.13%, Department of Veteran Affairs accounts for 1.48%, Department of Education 1.32%, department of Homeland Security 1.215%. These all programs account for about 20% in total.

So what are they going to cut to make up the 33% needed to balance the budget? Even if they cut to zero (0%) popular programs like unemployment, food stamps, dept. education, dept. VA and homeland security they are still 13% short.

They will throw out some department names but if you look at their piece of the budget it is typically very small compared with what they need.

The republican/tea party is going to have to go after Social Security, Defense, Medicare / Medicaid. How do like those apples? But you do not hear the republican/tea party coming forth and being honest with America and telling us which ones and how much. It should also be noted that Social Security has no impact on the deficit. It is funded by payroll taxes and currently according to CBO and a bevy of others it is viable at 100% of benefits until 2037 or 2039.

The republican/tea party representative from VA has an idea.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/11/07/cantor-shutdown/

Cantor Refuses To Take Government Shutdown or Default on U.S. Debt off the Table

“In an interview with Fox News Sunday this morning, Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA), the #2 Republican in the House, threatened to take the nation’s economy hostage if President Obama does not comply with House GOPers’ (my insert: republican/tea party) as yet undefined demands. When asked if he would take a government shutdown on forcing the United States to default on its debt off the table, Cantor responded that it would somehow be President Obama’s fault if House Republicans press this agenda:”

Comment: So Eric Cantor is going to shut down the government and then blame it on President Obama. Here is just another example of how the republican/tea party people conduct their business with no morals, shame or ethics. They will do something, like shut down the government and create world wide financial terror, then deny it was their fault and they will blame somebody else for what they did, like President Obama. They will do anything and everything in the name of Greed and Power and even screw the world in doing it. In my opinion this whole idea is repugnant. What happened to the last clown that did this????

Read the rest of the article to see the devastating effects this will have on America and the whole world. Not only is this repugnant it is totally irresponsible as well. http://thinkprogress.org/2010/11/07/cantor-shutdown/

And how about the lie heard around the world? There is no penalty for outright lies in the media. You can say whatever you want with no responsibility whatever for the consequence of your lie, even if people are physically hurt or worst.

“That's how this fact-free story about the president's $2 billion, 10 day trip to Asia has been injected into the public discourse. The proof the story is false is readily available. But those who're clinging to this falsehood will never admit they're just hoping it's true.” Comment: Or worse, they know it is not true but say it anyway in the name of Greed and Power. I find this to be more likely based on their past performance with Death Camps, our President being a Muslim, not a citizen, etc. etc.

“The list of the perpetrators of this particular lie, comprise a Who's Who of rightwing Obama detractors. Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Don Imus, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Michelle Malkin and Matt Drudge, have all weighed in.”

See http://www.examiner.com/liberal-in-pittsburgh/te-fib-heard-round-the-world for the complete article.

Fair and Balanced News from Fox? Right, when pigs grow wings.

Good Morning Bev.....great post! All we have heard from the GOPTP is where are the jobs, vote for us we'll get you jobs, but a soon as elected, they are now focused on repealing HCR and going on witch hunts to see how they can waste the taxpayers money on trying to manufacture lies and nonsense......this is what people voted on?

There is no fool like an old fool. some never learn.

Get over yourselves lefties. The right won.

LEAN FORWARD - this won't hurt a bit.

You won a majority in ONE house of Congress. Get over yourself. What are you going to do to that'll be useful to the country? You wanted this, now produce.

It will be great to have Keith back tomorrow. MSNBC made a stupid decision in suspending Keith, he made three contributions to three political candidates, but should have asked approval from the powers that be at NBC/MSNBC, that's the rule.

Their decision to suspend him backfired. When you have a socalled 'news' organization (Fox) corporation give $1ml to the goptp, his paltry donation didn't amount to a blip on the pile of money tossed around and people saw that the punishment didn't fit the crime.

His was not an ethics violation, he did nothing unethical. Keith would be the first to tell anyone he is not a journalist but a pundit/anchor and in that capacity should be able to donate whatever he wants to whomever he wants. It was a nonstory to start with, and then his bosses made it into one by washing their dirty linen in public.

Excellent points, the republicans have not been fiscally responsible since Reagan took them down the road of tax cuts mostly for the rich. I have nothing against the rich, make all the money you want but what voters fail to realize is that most of the money they make is taxed at a lower level than the average American because of deductions and capital gains rates--most of their money is made in the form of capital gains. John Doe Middle America subsidizes the tax cuts for the rich--we foot the bill.

It will be great to have Keith back tomorrow. MSNBC made a stupid decision in suspending Keith, he made three contributions to three political candidates, but should have asked approval from the powers that be at NBC/MSNBC, that's the rule.

I don't know if you've seen this...

Earlier today, MSNBC declared that it would be suspending progressive host Keith Olbermann because he violated NBC's ethics rules by donating to three Democratic candidates for Congress. As many bloggers have noted, conservative MSNBC hostJoe Scarborough has donated to Republican candidates for Congress while promoting the same candidate on air, but has never been disciplined. Moreover, Gawker notes that MSNBC has been exempt from the formal NBC ethics rules for years. It is still a mystery why MSNBC selectively applied NBC's ethics rules to Olbermann. However, it important to realize that MSNBC has undergone a fundamental change in leadership in the last two months.

Late last year, Comcast — the nation's largest cable provider and second largest Internet service provider — inked a deal taking over NBC Universal, the parent company of MSNBC. Comcast moved swiftly to reshuffle MSNBC's top staff. On September 26th of this year, Comcast announced perhaps the most dramatic shift, replacing longtime MSNBC chief Jeff Zucker with Comcast executive Steve Burke [Updated: The shift from Zucker to Burke has not taken place yet -- Burke will preside over MSNBC once the Comcast merger is complete. We have been informed that no Comcast officials are currently involved in the decisions of NBC or MSNBC.]. Burke has given generous amounts to both parties — providing cash to outgoing Sen. Arlen Specter (D-PA) as well as to Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA) and other top Republicans. But as Public Citizen has noted, Burke has deep ties to the Republican Party. Public Citizen's report reveals that Burke served as a key fundraiser to President George Bush, and even served on Bush's Council of Advisers on Science and Technology:

Comcast – the country’s largest provider of cable TV and broadband Internet services – has increased its political giving along with its mergers and acquisitions. CEO Brian Roberts was a co-chairman of the host committee at the 2000 Republican Convention. Comcast Cable President Stephen Burke has raised at least $200,000 for Bush’s re-election campaign. [...] Comcast’s political giving has increased along with its mergers and acquisitions. The company was a “platinum sponsor” at the 2000 GOP convention, and Roberts was a co-chairman of the host committee at the Philadelphia event. Burke was appointed to the President’s Council of Advisers on Science and Technology in 2002.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/11/05/burke-comcast-msnbc/

Here's another heaping helping of hypocrisy!

NAVY

Lie #3: Expiring High Income Tax Cuts Will Hurt Small Business

I totally disagree with you on this point, selfishly because it will hurt our small business. And if, as you point out only affects 2% of small business, why not exempt the money that is left in small business for economic/business growth? That would totall take the wind out of the "small business" argument. While at the same time giving the left what they want, a tax on the rich or in the left's minds a more fair tax system?

@ Jody,

Nobody is arguing the capital gains tax on the rich, but the income tax rate, 33%. Most of us would be in favor of holding that line, increasing capital gains taxes, (investment tax on earnings) and reducing deductions that lean towards the wealthy (such as mortgage interest on a 2nd home)

Enough of my left bashing over the last 3 months.

All I have been hearing from the "landslide Republican" victory is the repealing of healthcare. These idiots just don't get it. A person that has just lost their house, in the middle of divorce, children not getting enough to eat, etc in the midst of a recession really don't care if their treatment for the flu gets covered or not.

Obama and the new Republicans have something in common. Its about jobs and the economy. And if neither one of them come to understand it, both will be thrown out in 2012.

Beverly, and US Vet, and most of you, for that matter:

Do you ever actually interpret for YOURSELVES what is said, or do you just allow thinkprogress.org, moveon.org and etc. feed you your talking points - to the point that you just CUT AND PASTE?

Did any of you actually watch Cantor on Fox News Sunday, or do you have your telelvisions programmed to explode if set to that channel?

What a closed-minded vine this is. See if you can catch Cantor's interview with Chris Wallace for yourself, and try to listen to what he's actually saying - not thinkprogress.org's agenda-filled interpretation of it. I wasn't impressed with the dodging Cantor did on the issue of compromise regarding the Obama Tax Increases, but the pathetic talking points being spewed forth here a pretty gross misrepresentation of what he actually said regarding a "government shut down".

I can respect a veiwpoint to the left, when it is based on thought and introspection, but not when it is based on misrepresentation of what the other "side" is actually saying. My hope now, based on POTUS actually being able to admit he refused to compromise and that he engaged in the EXACT form of hyperpartisan uncivilized rhetoric that he campaigned on ending, is that he'll stop telling lies and swearing by them, that you people believe and then base your castigation on. Like these, for instance.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/10/foreign-money-really/

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_social_security_whopper.html

http://factcheck.org/2010/08/obamas-latest-social-security-whopper/

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/18/barack-obama/barack-obama-claims-republican-leaders-plan-privat/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/27/barack-obama/obama-says-republicans-oppose-strengthening-child-/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/12/barack-obama/obama-claims-bush-administration-got-190-terrorism/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/27/barack-obama/obama-says-supreme-court-ruling-allows-foreign-com/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/oct/19/barack-obama/health-care-reform-bipartsian/

Joe in Albany sez:

Lefty loudmouth Olbermann who makes a living whining about evil, bad, unethical, Republican’s and “teabagger’s” gets caught in a workplace ethics scandal, and PMSNBC’s punishment is to give him a long weekend off??

There's nothing unethical about donating to a political party that everyone knows he supports. Unethcical would be morons like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh spreading a ridiculous lie about how Obama's trip to India cost $200 million a day, cost of 34 fictionious warships not included.

Olbermann did violate his contract, most likely because he didn't read the fine print or had just forgotten about it. He got punished with a slap on the hand, which was no less than his infraction justified. Now he can get back to work Tuesday debunking lies and the lying liars that tell them: Hannity, Palin, LImbaugh, etc.

The republican/tea party now has control of the House. We still hold the Senate and President. Come January 2011 the republicans will be asked to start governing instead of obstructing. Let's see how well they do with the economy, deficit, balanced budget, national debt, education etc., all promises they talked about during the election.

Will they move us forward or just go back the the doctrine of the previous administration that caused this mess to begin with?

Time will tell and yes, "America is Watching".

"Last year unemployment was 10.6% in October."

Gee, Bev, the USDOL Bureau of Labor Statistics, which compiles the unemploymet data thinks it was 10.1% according to its web site.

Olbermann suspension was unwarranted. While he clearly leans left and is not a "unbiased" person/program, he is what he is. Throwing him off the air for a few days is like suspending Rush dittohead for supporting Reps. Simply ridiculous.

It's still down, Joe. But you don't seem to be inclined to admit that, do you?

John B,

I haven't heard anything from the right as to how they will produce results as requested in your earlier post. One of the problems government has is often the same problem big business has. They go after the Cost side of the equation. Such as the Rights agenda to repeal health-care. But the big boys/congress has no clue as to how to grow sales, or the economy. Which is much harder because it is an intangiblerisk going forward, and often takes years to produce results. And by the time results prosper the party that proposed it is thrown out of office and the next party in has already taken steps to "Kill" the legislation that resulted in the prospering. And because they kill the legislation during the start of economic prosperity, they assume that their strategy worked. Vicious circle.

I hope that the republican take over of the house is a wake up call for the Democrats. Some party, any party needs to begin the process of addressing the real problem, and that is fixing the foundation of our economy. Not a bandaid or some other form of magic financial wand waving, but actually cementing the foundation. For me, the cracks started with NAFTA and free trade. While we are able to get our jeans for a $4.00 more (would have been $5.00 but the CEO's had to have their share of course) the end result is that we lost our jobs, or work harder for less and can't afford that damned jeans anyways.

Jody in Iowa,

You do have a point. The rich are taxed, they find ways to move and hide their money, why, because they have tax accountants that know what to do with it. Why? Because our tax code has so many rules and regulations that allow people to cheat on their taxes. If I could take advantage of the system, I would to. This is why tax reform should be a priority. Flat taxes are the only way to make it fair to everyone.

1. Cut out all the crazy deductions that you have in the tax code.

2. Give a tax credit of $5000 per year for owning your own home

3. Give a tax credit of $3000 per year for each dependent

4. Give a tax credit of $3500 per year for medical care for each person in household

5. Give a tax credit of $3500 per year for personal deduction for each wage earner in household

6. Allow a donation of 2% of gross salary to charitable organizations

7. Whatever is left is taxed at 9% for everyone. If you have already paid in more, get a refund, if not pay your taxes. I would even go as high as 13%, but that should be more than enough to pay our government until they learn to slash spending.

Of course this is one plan, what is yours?

Good day, all. Some first-rate posts here, and the usual empty-calorie drivel from the right.

So many people think that now is a different era in American politics, that the tone in Washington is at an all-time low, and that even the merest hint of compromise or cooperation between sides is impossible. Of course, any student of American history knows that in fact in a sense this period is far from being as dirty and divided as many other periods in the past. There is literally nothing at all now to compare with the more fractious times of the first half of the 19th century, when solons took potshots - with pistols - on the stairs of hotels, caned and pummelled each other on the floor of the Senate, and mounted absolutely vile rumor campaigns about a President's wife.

The atmosphere today is more in keeping with the latter years of the Eisenhower Administration and most certainly all of John F. Kennedy's brief term of service. Then, the ultra-right took shelter in the John
Birch Society (slogan: "Who is John Galt?"), advocating impeachment of both those Presidents, impeachment of Chief Justice Earl Warren, and many of the kinds of positions now current among the Tea Party. And we may all remember that beginning immediately after Election Day of 1992, the GOP slime machine went to work attacking both President Clinton and his wife Hillary. Then, as now, the objective was to cripple that Administration in any way it could, regardless of consequences for the nation. Then, as now, the nation was in a Republican-initiated recession and jobs were on all minds.

In the present situation, President Obama's somewhat aloof, hands-off personal style may be both hindrance and advantage. In the past two years, he was more policy-maker than participant in the details of getting his agenda carried forward. As a result, the battle over Health Insurance Reform ran away from the White House and took both too much time and too maqny curves before the bill was passed. Further, he missed many opportunities to break a Republican blockade and negotiate means of including some of their ideas in the final product. In the coming Congress, the president needs to get into the discussions more directly, and never miss an opportunity to respond to his critics when they falsify, misrepresent, and distort facts.

It is also important for President Obama to be in charge of the agenda - and to focus it on measures to continue improving the economy and generating jobs. If the Republican/Tea Party crowd in the House refuse to go along with his initiatives, the entire nation will realize that the right wing is not acting on the most important issue last Election Day - the economy.

The President admits he needs to come to the people more often - a very wise realization. If, as is usually his style, President Obama does so with grace and persuasion, he will stand in stark contrast the the low-blow scrapping coming out of the GOPTP.

Currently the GOPTP agenda of refuse, repeal, and retreat is not actually an agenda at all. Americans didn't vote for such an agenda. They voted for action on the most pressing issues of the day. Unless the Republican-dominated House looks to a more positive approach, and accepts the hand the President has extended, there will be heck to pay. And the right wing will have shown itself unfit for service.

A S for BigBear's post re taxes: What you proposed is a version of the "midified flat tax" program many people like. It has been floating around in one form or another since the 1850's, and was closely examined in the wilson Administration, which eventually chose to graduated income tax method instead. Analysis of that tax has repeated shown that it is an excessive burden on lower-income workers, and fails to serve any number of valuable public policy needs. Simply put, the flat tax does not work.

John B: Get back to me when it's at or below 6% per year, like it was from 2001-2008 (USDOL BLS Annual Averages).

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LNU04000000&years_option=all_years&periods_option=specific_periods&periods=Annual+Data

cdahl,

You are correct in your statement that the government should be helping create jobs, but they should not be government jobs. Why, because the taxpayers have to pay those salaries, and they already make twice the annual pay that private sector people make. Now if government wants to give incentives for job creation to the private sector, I am for that. But when we allow the government to have to many regulations, well, people just don't want to start businesses.

And for all you on here that complain constantly about the shipping of jobs overseas, our President is over in India, one of the largest outsourced places in the world, saying it creates jobs in the US. Now, please tell me, if we are losing all these jobs to outsourcing, why is he saying that it creates jobs here at home.

Mindful of the audience watching from home worried about jobs outsourced to India, the president went out of his way to emphasize deals between U.S. and Indian companies are creating American jobs. "I want to be able to say to the American people, 'These aren't just them taking their jobs... I want to be able to say, 'They just created 50,000 jobs."

Where are these 50,000 jobs?

Navy - You have mentioned several time that the Republican "NOW" have control of the house. That will actually not happen till January. If the current house (read Democrats) does not vote to extend the tax cuts the onus will fall upon the lame duck democrats.

The constant drone of inaccurate posts is tiring. I know, don’t read them and go elsewhere. I actually thought once the mid-term elections were over we would stop hearing the erroneous talking points. For those of you who like to quote them over and over, I challenge you to read a small paper on the economics of the last 20+ years.

You may just learn about the policies from the Federal Reserve, Congress and the Executive Branch that contributed to the mess we are in and caused two bubbles that have both since burst and are the “most intellectual” theories on why we are where we are. It is funny and almost comical that we hear various assertions that certain presidents caused this and that and they are almost always flat wrong.

You know who you are. The regulars that have a post here every day first thing in the morning. Read the document from the non partisan Foundation for Economic Education and let’s see if you cannot expand your mind as to how the economy really works and how the political talking points are merely a fraction of the cause and effect.

http://fee.org/doc/the-house-that-uncle-sam-built/

cdahl;

Good to see you again. As we talked about before, I agree that the tax rules need to be changed on Sub Chapter S corps that allow them to retain earnings (that would be otherwised taxed as personal income) that are slated to make the compnay grow, like capital improvements(machinery, tools, technology etc), hiring new people. All the things that you are currently doing. I do agree with that.

One of the points I was making is that the republicans in their analysis that over 50% of the corporate revenues are generated by Small Businesses is not quite true. They use the term "Small Business" rather loose. They are trying to make people think they were talking about the mom and pop dinner, the small manufacturer, gift shop, etc. The ones that we typically think of as SMB. I think that is wrong when they are really including companies like Bechtel in their calculations which is not a small business not matter how they cut it.

I attended a smal business webinar last week and there appears to be a movement concerning the retained earnins being taxed as personal income for your company. Several major CPA firms are trying as we speak to format a formula that may be used to get you some relief. I hope it goes thorough.

From what I understand, Fox News is watched by more people than ABC, NBC, CBS and MSNBC combined. I also understand that either Time or Newsweek has just published a list of the most influential political "pundits" beginning with Rush Limbaugh followed by Glen Beck, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. What I do understand is that a lot of people get their political world shaped by what these pundits tell them on Fox News and MSNBC. Fair enough but most pundits make a lot of money by being controversial. Sean Hannity clearly hates the left; Keith Olbermann clearly hates the right. Perhaps the American Public would benefit if these pundits would state their credentials for having valid opinions (key words are "credentials" and "valid"). I would appreciate sourced news coming from a commentator with a degree in political science rather than unsourced opinions from former disc jockeys and sports commentators. There is too much at stake to let the Left OR the right shape Public Policy in this great country.

You know what gets me? The new Republicans want to cut science education and research spending. This is the foundation of American enterprise and greatness. Without technology, without training to create and service technology, we will fall by the wayside. Stoopid is as stoopid does.

Thanks, Navy,

Big Bear. I agree with your point. The Reps are still busy campaigning and trying to repeal heath-care, an impossible strategy. Obama is trying to "open" the Indian market to US manufactured goods. All this will do is promote more outsourcing and put pressure on US manufacturing from Indian imports.

Call me a skeptic, but every time I see Free Trade Agreements I see the other side getting more than we receive.

And Koodos to Ex-President Bush. He increased manufacturing jobs in the US. Yea!!!!

Of course, as I learned this weekend, he had to add Hamburger Assembly to the definition to let his record look better. (having a problem linking it, but google Bush and hamburger manufacturing).

Manufacturing is manufacturing. Assembly is assembly. Both good, but we need a clear definition of manufacturing to understand how economic foundational wealth and prosperity is created.

As a real manufacturer, (and one who continues to try to educate our customers that we manufacture and assemble, our competition says they manufacture, but only assemble) I would love to hear Olbermann state that a 16 year old kid is assembling the hamburger. The cow manufactured it.



John A.,

Wilson's Administration decided that a flat tax would not work. That is real progressive of him. Why won't it work, because our government wants to punish people that make more money? It is a shame that all people don't have to pay a certain percentage of their income towards taxes. Especially since last year 47% of Americans did not pay an income tax. That means that 53% of the people have to pay for our government's expenses, yet they won't cut spending anywhere. Amazing we are still here.

Now I want to know why you and Wilson don't think such a plan would work. Because, I believe, that millions of Americans would rather have a simple tax code, and pay their taxes fairly, than to have one with thousands of codes and is unfair.

According to reports, there were 216,885,347 million tax payers last year. At the average wage across the US of 37,000 dollars, @9% they each would pay about $3330 per person. or about $722,228,205.510 into the national government. @ 13% each person would pay about $3700, while the bring in for the government would be $802,475,783,900 just from income.

And while you say it can't be done, well that is wrong, because in several countries around the world they are doing just that. From http://www.economist.com/node/3861190?story_id=3861190

"The answer is yes: there is indeed an alternative, and experience is proving that it is an eminently realistic one. The experiment started in a small way in 1994, when Estonia became the first country in Europe to introduce a “flat tax” on personal and corporate income. Income is taxed at a single uniform rate of 26%: no schedule of rates, no deductions. The economy has flourished. Others followed: first, Latvia and Lithuania, Estonia's Baltic neighbours; later Russia (with a rate of 13% on personal income), then Slovakia (19% on personal and corporate income). One of Poland's centre-right opposition parties is campaigning for a similar code (with a rate of 15%). So far eight countries have followed Estonia's example (see article). An old idea that for decades elicited the response, “Fine in theory, just not practical in the real world,” seems to be working as well in practice as it does on the blackboard."

BigBear,

I wonder where you got your numbers from.

From what I've read, a 23% fair tax (with the prebate) balances the budget. 24% and we start paying down the debt.

Janstince,

Cuts in science and technology also came from our current President, who has slashed NASA budget to the point where we cannot currently afford space travel. I thought space was the "Final Frontier":)

So it is not just a Republican cut, but also a Democratic cut.

Chef Darrell,

Those are my personal numbers, I pulled them out of thin air. But to some extent I follow my personal beliefs, I am suppose to give my church 10%, so why should I give the government more than that. 9% is from that thought. The 13% is what reality, in my head, says it should be, considering that we also pay a 6.2% social security tax, so that comes to almost 20% of my salary. I think that is more than enough for the government. Especially since they don't seem to know how to balance a budget, or cut spending.

Big Bear,

I have always been a supporter of a flat tax that doesn't hurt the middle class. Although my next numbers will be pulled out of a hat, the idea is that we start taxing the first $1.00 after $50,000 @ say 20%. Meaning, someone making $70,000 would pay $4,000, or 20% of $20,000. Absolutely no deductions, saving billions by streamlining the IRS.

I don't agree with the middle class and lower incomes paying their fair share. They do this with purchasing power paying sales tax on necessity items. They should be allowed to keep whatever they can and try to better their situation, and taxing them only stands in that way.

BigBear,

Here is where I got my info: http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

cdahl:

I don't agree with the middle class and lower incomes paying their fair share

So you don't agree in fairness at all? That seems backwards to call it "fair share" if it doesn't apply equally. Call it what it is, a tax on those who don't wait for the government handouts.

When I say the republican/tea party now has control of the house it is a figurative NOW. The election has been held, the votes counted and now you will lead the 112 Congress. I know you guys cannot do your thing until January 2011 (the 112th congress). Sorry if you felt mis-lead.

cdahl, very astute statement about "growing sales". A company shrinks to survive when necessary, but very rarely does one successfully downsize to profitability. Thanks for that, I do enjoy your comments.

Shutting down the government for a couple of years sounds good to taxpayers, Hey!

They have messed up things enough!

John B: Get back to me when it's at or below 6% per year, like it was from 2001-2008 (USDOL BLS Annual Averages).

Joe, as usual you're choosing your argument so selectively that you hope you can't lose. You lose, because anyone not suffering from Alzheimers remembers that the economy was careening down the canyon side when President Obama took office, and the unemployment rate was already over 8% at that time. http://bubblemeter.blogspot.com/2009/09/recession-perhaps-not-over.html

Also conveniently left out of your scenario, unemployment was reasonable but the Bush recovery was the FIRST TIME median income didn't recover to pre-recessionary levels by the time of the next recession. Conservative economics are an epic fail.

Chef Darrel

I will self-admit that I'm not smart enough to understand the inner workings of the tax code. However, I am very good at keeping it simple to the point where everyone understands the score.

48% of American's don't pay income tax. However, everyone pays some form of real estate and sales tax. Taxing people under $x income, say $50,000 creates a fair tax system (or peg it at the number now where they don't pay any tax). In regards for taxing this portion of the middle class, no I don't agree with burdening them. This population does not, in general get the benefit of capital gains tax reductions, etc. In fact they spend basically every dollar they make. And since the argument for a flat tax always centers on the disproportionate percentage of income being burdened on this population, eliminating them from it is the only way to get flat tax legislation passed. And with a flat tax one should consider eliminating all deductions, which in turn would basically eliminate the need for an IRS department.

But have no fear. Enact it and Congress will eventually cast their net to those making $45,000 more, then $35,000 and more, and finally until everyone, even those less fortunate will have to pay their "unfair" share.

From the article: Yet while Obama and the Democrats didn’t get results in votes, they did get results in policy.

Maybe if they didn't get results in policy, they would have gotten results in votes.

It sure is funny how the American public reacted to this election. The democrats didn't think they would take such a beating in congress. See what pushing policy down the throats of the American people gets you Obama and Pelosi? It gets you shown to the door. It will be very nice to not see Pelosi sitting in that chair again. It couldn't have happened to a more fitting person.

Keep on calling the tea party names and berating them. I'll take election wins everytime over the name calling. The children in the democrat party still don't know what hit them. Yeah, I don't mind gloating a bit. For all the name calling the democrats did, they lost BIG time. Gone are the days when they can say that the voters favored them in an election.

This election had far reaching impact. Over 680 state races were gains for the republicans. Local politics were effected and that will impact redistricting next year. Sorry dems.... seems you are losing the edge. I know it won't shut your traps, but you can sit and complain... It will fall on deaf ears. There's finally hope that this socialist/progressive slide to the left will be stopped. The real sad part is the left will benefit from it... and they will be complaining about it all the way.

This just in; FOX Spews has just announced they will no longer use the motto, "Fair and Balanced," but will instead go with the more accurate, "It's Not a Lie, If You Believe It."

I'm not sure I follow you here. I'm advocating a consumption tax. No more income tax. No more April 15th filings. Pay a 23% tax on all new products purchased. The government prebates that based on income (so it isn't disproportionate) - you can actually zero it out. I find it makes sense and reduces the tax code to something like 2 pages.

Yours sounds like setting the floor at an arbitrary level.

Sorry Chef,

I misunderstood that it was a consumption tax without an income tax. And yes, very arbitrary. However, I do believe that any pure flat tax is regressive in regards to those with a lower income, and we should expect the upper bracket to pay more. I don't buy into the "their fair share bs, since they pay the vast majority of the taxes right now. But I also believe there needs to be some sort of perceived non-partisan non political balance that provides for goods, services etc.

One way to do it is for Obama, during his 10 day stint in Asia is to announe a 20% tariff on US imports that will be used to pay for health care and other needed social programs. Unrealistic I know, but I would enjoy seeing the Chinese 4 year old crybabying jumpin' around a little bit. But somehow we have to continue a policy that seeks a fair agreement from both countries, when one of them is corrupt to the core.

Hey,

While Obama is in China, India and all the other countries that HAVE AMERICAN JOBS you think he might fire the foreigners and BRING OUR JOBS BACK TO AMERICA? I have listened to him drone on about "creating jobs". Wake up and smell the coffee Odumba! We have jobs but they are being held by the countries that hate American more than any other countries in the world! EVERYTHING YOU LOOK AT IN A STORE SAYS "MADE IN CHINA" and they HATE US YET WE GIVE THEM ALL OF OUR WORK.Until we stand up and demand our jobs back we will only consume until we will not any longer have the money to consume and then they will consume us!! As long as Washington allows American to be a non-manufacturing nation Americans will continue to lose homes and live in the street.So much for WASTING almost two years on Odumba care.

Miss Nina - listen to yourself. You are blaming President Obama for the jobs that are in CHINA? Maybe you need to talk with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and ask them why they encourage OUTSOURCING American jobs to China and India.

With the election of the GOPers in the House of Representatives, any legislation that would STOP the hemmoraging of jobs will NOT pass that chamber of the house. Even when both chambers were in Democratic hands, the bill that would take away tax breaks for companies that OUTSOURCE jobs was passed in the House (Thank you, Speaker Pelosi) by filibustered in the Senate by the Republicans.

So, miss nina, if you want to place blame on why everything we buy says 'MADE IN CHINA', you need to ask your Republican legislators WHY they filibustered a bill that would have kept those jobs here. You need to ask why the 'Trade Deals' made a decade ago encouraged outsourcing. You need to ask yourself why the electorate voted back into power the SAME BUNCH that outsourced the jobs in the first place.

So, miss nina, what say you?

cdahl,

Why should we expect the upper bracket to pay more? Is is the responsibility of those who have made more to take care of those that don't?

Now, in a flat tax rate, they would pay more, because they made more. Why shouldn't people who don't make as much, not have to pay income taxes? Because they are poor, yet they are the ones that get most of the social benefits, even if less than 2% of the overall budget, if you don't include ss and medicare.

I just don't agree that those making less shouldn't have to pay something. If they want to use the system, they should have to return to the system.

Retired Navy Vet - Referring to your remarks in 1.17... If the republicans actually do the things you mentioned... and they have a different group and mindset as the former republicans (Bush, et al.) how will that shape your opinion of them? Let's say they can make strides to improve the economy, help reduce the unemployment rate and lead the way towards an upturn in the GDP, etc... will your disdain for republicans diminish?

I know my opinion of them will be greatly disfavored if they don't make headway in that direction. As of now, we shall see what we shall see.

I get your point, big bear but simply disagree with most of it. I do, however agree that everyone has to pay something. And you make a decent argument for the fact that the most poor benefit the most for the services. Being from the upper bracket, I do think that I have an obligation to pay a higher percentage. But not the exorbitant amount that is being asked of me.

And to all of the Anti-Chinese manufactured people. I was on a Delta flight last week and noticed a flight attendants lable on his apron. It said: Made in China, designed in USA.

I though: Well that's just great. One person in the US spent 1/2 hour getting paid for the design, while 10 people in China spent the last year manufacturing it.

I though: Well that's just great. One person in the US spent 1/2 hour getting paid for the design, while 10 people in China spent the last year manufacturing it. (Don't forget to state here - "because most of America wants to fly coast-to-coast whenever they want with 4-day advance purchase for $249.")

I mean - are you willing to pay that much more for your airfare so that we can pay an American worker minimum wage to sew that garment? Last I checked, most Americans aren't. They want it both ways. And it doesn't exist.

cdahl,

By going to flat tax rate, you would pay more, but you would pay the same percentage as someone who does not make as much as you. I don't have a problem paying more, especially when I make more. I have a problem in paying 28% of my salary to income taxes, when 47% don't pay anything. Or someone that makes twice what I do, pays 23% because they have an accountant that knows the loopholes. The system is too complicated, and I probably lose hundreds of dollars a year, because I can't afford to have someone do my taxes.

We need to make it simple, so the average person can keep up with their taxes.

"Let's say they can make strides to improve the economy, help reduce the unemployment rate and lead the way towards an upturn in the GDP, etc... will your disdain for republicans diminish?"

Sure. It's a safe bet because 30 years of Conservative class warfare on behalf of the rich against the middle class has been a failure and there's no change in the works for their failed policies.

John B,

Why is it that the democrats love to talk about class warfare? Why is it that you disdain the people that are wealthy? Why don't you dislike the Oberman's of the world, because they have money also, and I bet they have accountants that hide some of their money so they keep it. Why is it so hard for some of you on here to meet anyone half way. It is all about taking from the rich and redistributing it to those who don't have anything. When did the Left become God?

Maybe your policies aren't working and they should be changed, that is what the American people pretty much decided last week. Maybe you should rethink your positions. Because it seems that a majority of people don't seem to agree with you.

BigBear62 -

IIRC, the cuts Obama made to NASA involved the Constellation project. Constellation was scrapped. However, once again IIRC, he actually increased overall funding as part of research and development.

Also, Obama increased funding for the NCSE, NIH, etc. Now the Republicans want to kick that back down to 2008 levels, and earlier if they can. You can squeeze that lemon all you want, but at some point it will run out of juice and you have to buy more lemons.

I think the republican party has asked for all government to go back to the 2008 levels, not just part of it.

Bev I see your mouth is still going non stop even though you are completely clueless on what you ramble on and on about.

Get over yourself, get a job, get off the internet and the world will be a much better place. This goes double for disabled navy lefty plant and fiesty. You can ramble all you want but you are NOT going to change any intelligent minds.

Dump the health care and the jobs will come.

BB, it's because the evidence bears out that interpretation. Over the last several decades income growth in the middle income levels has SEVERELY lagged GDP growth.

Since the mid-to-late 1970s, growth of income at the median has been slow — very slow — relative to growth of the economy. The current decade, with no improvement at all in median income, is especially striking.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/09/gdp-per-capita.html

That isn't the case across our society, by the way. Wealth is accumulating rapidly at the very top.

For the superrich who make Forbes Magazine’s annual list of the 400 wealthiest Americans, the expansion of wealth has been particularly dramatic. In the 11 years between 1995 and 2006, this group saw its total wealth more than double from $470 billion to $1.25 trillion. At the same time, the personal saving rate of Americans overall—one indicator of wealth among the 80 percent who work for wages—has declined precipitously since 1982, dropping into negative territory (-1.1 percent) in 2006.

That isn't a matter of class envy, that's a MASSIVE redistritution of wealth from the bread and butter of American society--the people who do the work that makes us great--to the wealthy elites of our society. http://www.lwv.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=12682

Moreover this isn't coincidental. The very wealthy are systematically buying our government in order to make it an instrument of their own enrichment. If we don't realize that and make an effort to REALLY "take our country back" we'll be a nation of Lords and serfs in another generation.

The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1#ixzz14j4sThwA

This is a coordinated attack on the traditions of America, masquerading as tradition itself.

It’s ironic—though perhaps that’s too kind a term—to note that at the moment the U.S. poverty rate is reaching a 15-year high the nation is engaged in whether to offer additional tax cuts for those making more than $250,000 per year. (For a single adult in 2009, the poverty line was $10,830 in pretax cash income. For a family of four it was $22,050.)

This despite the fact that the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office analyzed the short-term effects of 11 potential options for dealing with the present unemployment crisis and found that retaining the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy offered the least powerful “bang for the buck,” owing to wealthy people’s proclivity to save rather than spend additional income. And yes, it just so happens that the Forbes 400 came out during the same week, and lo and behold, “The super-rich got even wealthier this year.” (CAP's Matt Yglesias offers a few ideas about this phenomenon as well.)

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/09/ta092310.html

So no, I'm not against wealth. I'm against the wealthy doing their utmost to make sure you and I never get a chance to share in that wealth, no matter how hard we work, no matter how smart we are.

BrianB:

If they can do then they will get my respect and thank you. But, I do not see that happening based on their history the last 2 years.

It's funny all of the empty rhetoric, exaggeration, lies, name-calling and vitriol coming from the left. What's up with that?

You still control the Senate and the Presidency - why all the whining and sky-is-falling nonsense?

And to correct a whole bunch of idiots who've posted already, the Republicans don't take control of the house until after the New Year.

You folks have been telling us for 2 years that we need some patience with Obama and his plans. Fair enough. How about you give the Republican party 2 years (as they are still the minority party) and see if they can see their way to some meaningful compromise?

Or are you going to act like 3 year olds just like you did for 8 years of the Bush Presidency?

Compromise on oversight of Wallstreet and the banks is what got us in this mess. Bi-partisanship on GRAMM-LEACH-BLILEY created institutions which became too big to be allowed to fail, and then required socialistic solutions when they did purposely "fail"us.

LOL, if you wanna see vitriol just watch a Tea Party rally. One "strategery" in the Republican Playbook has been to try to turn the tables, but sorry--the "socialists" are on to the fascists.

Moving on... Good post Navy on the many lies from conservatives about tax cuts. Here's a question I never get answered: Bush's tax cuts are still in effect. Why is the economy in the toilet, and where are the jobs? It's not like we haven't tried this for ten years. We can now see that right-wing policies in general (deregulation, etc.) do not work.

Another phenomenon I find interesting is the good versus evil, black and white mentality. A self-identified Tea Partier was making the argument that there are only two choices of extending Bush's tax cuts, and letting the cuts expire (though he used the spin of referring to the expiration as "Obama tax hikes," of course). I asked him why only two choices? Why couldn't there be other solutions? For example, why not let the cuts expire for only the richest 2% and keep the cuts for the remaining 98% middle class/working poor? I watched his eyes glaze over as he tried to wrap his head around this compromise.

Speaking of which, Obama tried to compromise with Republicans, but they could never accept that they were the minority party and therefore couldn't call the shots. Let's face it, the Republicans and their affiliates at FOX, Hate Radio, etc. have a more effective marketing machine -- you know, like Microsoft. It's not the best product, but they are better at promoting their product.

The tax cut thing is a classic false dichotomy, TP. Because Conservative positions rarely justify themselves you can chop most of them to pieces just by studying up on fallacious arguments.

how quaint and unoriginal. "whackadoodle" & "republithugs" LOL!!! And your hate spewing tiny mind is just looking for a hairy trash can to dump your dribble in. So glad that your coffe club compatriots have their hairy trash cans open wide as they swallow greedily your BS!

Louis, I didn't read anything the childish "republithugs." Did you make a point after that?

BTW, I hold the same disregard for anyone who refers to "dimocrats" as well.

and your comment was better how american? you whine about the quaint and the unoriginal in your quaint and unoriginal post? doh!

My goodness,

Someone needs a nap or maybe realease all of this hostility running or maybe cutting down large trees with an axe. This is a lot of hate to release on one little email page.

Yes Joe, we are thrilled to have Nancy Pelosi continue as a leader in the Democrat Party. She is an amazing woman, who did a brilliant job getting legislation through for the President's signature.

Your low class personal attacks on her and sexist remarks tell us more about you and that she really did succeed in her role of Speaker.

Thank you Nancy, you are an inspiration to so many of us.

Are republicans thrilled with Boehner as the new House Speaker? It is a well known fact, that Boehner is the first legislator to hit the DC bars when others are still working.

Yes, if democrats select Nancy Pelosi, I will be happy to support her. She did a great job as Speaker.

Joe in Albany

I hope the FR left liberals are as happy as I am to see Nancy Pelosi running for Minority Leader!!!

Conservatives hate her because she is effective. The Democrats took a pounding becaue they happened to be in power while the unemployment rate is 9.6%. Period. The Republican strategy of vilifying Pelosi had little to do with it. Their stratigey of vilifying Harry Reid didn't work at all. He beat Sharron angle by a solid 5% margin and got 50% of the vote, to the dismay of the pundits and talking heads who all predicted he couldn't get above 45%

It doesn't matter who wins the position of Minority leader. Since the Republicans have no ideas and no policies to put forth, their entire strategy will be to domonize and tear down the Democrats in charge. Personally, I think Dems should give it to any Blue Dog left standing in an effort to 'purify' the party. Just kidding.

Seriously, though, The Repubs targeted Nancy because she was EFFECTIVE. Something that scares them completely sh!tless. Strong, smart, effective women seem to get them all lathered up over what Feisty likes to call, Stale, Pale and Male 'rights'. Can't have that, now can we?

Should be a good week on MSNBC, starting tomorrow night! This whole thing smacked of a massive 'power' play. Keith was wrong, according to his contract; however public Suspension without pay seems a bit MUCH for a minor breach. A fine and a 'dressing down', privately should have served the purpose. Personally, I think the clause is asinine. It's almost a little too "Big Brother will tell you who you CAN contribute to". It would have been much more egregious if he were using the station's airwaves to promote the candidate, much like Scarborough and Faux News do ALL of the time. But, I don't expect Management to be any more rational then the general public at this stage. Why handle something privately when you can create an entire news cycle around it publicly? (**shakes head in disgust**)

Jody,

Please prove where you have seen Boehner at the bar. Everyone can tell by looking at pictures of Pelosi that she has had botox. Besides, if I had to work in Washington, I'd drink also:O

You people crack me up, oh you Dems. suck, oh you Repubs. suck , oh you Tea Baggers suck, the only thing I get out of this is you all suck, instead of calling each other names why don't you try to come up with something that is actually useful .

great post wlee! and now is the time to do it. With 1/2 the legislative branch dem and half republican the govt could do the job of the people (by the people for the people) or get into another 2 year re-election cycle. I am hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

Big Bear, it is widely known and reported by the media and a topic of discussion by his fellow republicans.

@Gingerbread Momma... she ain't that popular anymore as evidenced by the last election. Said another way, you're in the minority with the Pelosi worship.

Jody,

Since I am having to work today, maybe you could find one of those articles, everyone on here finds and posts from a progressive website, maybe you should also.

Of course, as long as he is over 21, his drinking is a non issue, unless he gets a ticket, dui, or kills someone. Because we know, not a single democrat drinks in Washington, they all go to Maryland:)

LMAO.......Wow I didnt think it was possible for all of you lefties to get any more spun up and out of control. Bev, feisty and Navy I know it was a painful week, and god knows it wasn't YOUR fault the people really didn't think the way you 3 do. But do you really have to punish yourselves that badly? I know the last thing any of you want to see is more moderate head prevail and business actually get done in a meaningful manner. I know it was just congress and not that big a deal, but hey we have 2012 to look forward too. Plus you guys have all those wonderful photo ops of the President and the Mrs. on vacation. I do so hope they buy us all a really nice set of beads or maybe bring us home a monkey. I looks forward to Jan 1st and the unfunding of this health care bill. I would have thought you all might take a few days off and rest your enormous cranial sore spots. I do so love watching the empty Union hall parking lots since Tuesday, I just wish they had cleaned the mess up. All those signs and coffee cups are an eye sore.

Y'know what's more sad? None of the top 6 have any actual responsibility to the American people, and at least 5 of them regularly weasel out of lies by saying they're actually entertainers who aren't responsible for the accuracy of their statements.

That's right, all the leaders of the Conservative Movement don't even pretend to have an obligation not to lie to the citizenry.

Joe in Albany

The other seven are enough to make the FR lefty liberals skin crawl:

Since you are the one so frightened of the President, I think what is crawling are all the chyrons you see on that creepy Fox-info- tainment

John B;

How true. The republican/tea party are masters of the art of spin. Sya whatever you wand, it no longer needs to be based on facts, if you get caught, deny what you said or claim it was taken out of context and then blame the person that called you out.

Same old, same old.

John B

Please list the lies that they regularly weasel out of. Or is it you who is the regular liar?

From Rush;

http://noiseinmyhead.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/lies-limbaugh-has-told/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081031130353AAnURqH

http://www.apj.us/index.php?Itemid=2&task=view&option=com_content&id=1614

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1895

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/times-joe-klein-says-rush-limbaugh-deli

From Glenn;

http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-philadelphia/thar-he-blows-the-lies-of-glenn-beck-the-great-white-dope

http://glennbeckreport.com/glenn-beck-lies/lie-of-the-day-archive/

http://www.glenn-beck-sucks.com/

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200909170033

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200909170033

From Sean;

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/kfiles/b91585.html

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_06/018503.php

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/hannity-and-bachmann-telling-more-lies-abo

http://www.politicususa.com/en/hannity-oil-spillhttp://www.tvnewslies.org/html/sean_hannity.html

Bill;

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/oreilly-lies-coburn-nobodys-ever-sai

http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/10/23/bill-oreilly-lies/

http://mediamatters.org/research/200407120006

http://www.newshounds.us/2010/07/15/bill_oreilly_spreads_homophobic_lies_regarding_proposed_montana_curriculum.php

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2010/03/anthony-weiner-calls-oreilly-deceptive-turns-into-one-man-spin-machine/

Thanks for bringing a barrel with fish in it, and who says Liberals don't also enjoy shooting?

Decent Democrats would be hoping the same for Pres. McCain, if he had won. Obama’s race has nothing to do with it…unless you’re a racist.

A quote from one of those "proof of lies" links. I stopped going through them at about the fourth one, simply because what you people want to call "lies" are far too frequently differences of opinion, quotes taken entirely out of context, statements made that were true at one point in time that LATER turned out to be incorrect but still labeled as "lies", etc.

What disturbs me the most is how worried you all seem to be about talk show hosts (and by the way, link me up to some Olbermann lie, oh, wait, I'm sure you don't want to know about that) but you don't seem to care AT ALL about the lies POTUS tells.

The talk show hosts have no policy-making ability, they did not spent nearly a billion dollars getting elected to an office they were ill-equipped to hold, they did not spend much of that campaign claiming to be something they're not and the entire population of this country is NOT forced to live with the policies they support.

POTUS, on the other hand, is all of those things - and a bold faced liar to boot. But for some reason, that goes unrecognized. Astonishing.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/10/foreign-money-really/

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_social_security_whopper.html

http://factcheck.org/2010/08/obamas-latest-social-security-whopper/

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/18/barack-obama/barack-obama-claims-republican-leaders-plan-privat/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/27/barack-obama/obama-says-republicans-oppose-strengthening-child-/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/12/barack-obama/obama-claims-bush-administration-got-190-terrorism/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/27/barack-obama/obama-says-supreme-court-ruling-allows-foreign-com/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/oct/19/barack-obama/health-care-reform-bipartsian/

Can you find any further left sources? I checked out a few of your sources and they are not proof enough for me. Most of them are "OPINIONS". But the left has a very difficult time telling the difference between opinions and facts. I could go out and find a list far greater than that for Olbermann.

I would like some specific lies that "you" heard and then you get the proof of the lie. Can you do that?

Poisoning the well followed by the ridiculous assertion that MY sources are by nature discredited, but YOURS by contrast are of the highest regard. The question is asked and answered. If you're too partisan to accept what's right in front of your face that isn't my problem.

John B.

They do not like the facts regardless of the source. They like to create their own and pass them off as truth. If you disagree they call you the liar even though they are the misspoken ones.

Same old, same old rhetoric and talking points. See, if the republican/tea party had some specific ideas to share with us about how they are going to move this country forward maybe we could talk about them instead of rehashing old talking points.

Guess not.

John B

NO you didn't answer me. I asked for specific lies that you heard. It sems that you have none. And I never listed any sources so how do you figure I hold any source in high regard? The list you left for us is by far some of the most left leaning sources out there. I am not too partisan to accept the truth from a good reliable source. So please come up with something on your own. I listen to Rush and I listen to Beck. They have very good crews working for them and if they make a mistake in their statements they correct it very quickly. You and your sources need to seperate facts from opinions. I am able to do that. Some of their statements are entertainment but most are facts.

STTS!

Lies: Shovel Ready Jobs!

JH,

Go to politifact.org or factcheck.org, they are both pretty well balanced, pointing out lies politicians and pundits from both sides of the aisle spread. PragmaticToAFault listed a number of rulings against Obama that politifact did, so you can't claim it to be leftist.

JH, I don't listen to Rush, but I do regularly get snippets of Beck, Hannity, and Savage. It's good mental exercise to count off the reasons they're wrong while they're talking, and it's a steady stream of untruth.

The fact that you came back to push your point further doesn't lessen the fact that you are arguing by declaring my sources inadmissable instead of making an argument yourself.

You've stated in your position that it's not your job to prove your point, it's the opponent's job to disprove your argument. From the very beginning it's a fallacious argument by displacing the burden of truth. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

lies like Death Panels, President Obama is a Muslim, Not a US citizen, His trip to Asia costs 2 Billion Dollars, the stimulus did not work.

you mean lies that.

It doesnt matter what lies are being told because the 24-hour news cycle just reports them and moves on. the rhetoric whips up to a frenzy until election time, then the cycle restarts. No one has to go back and look at whether there are death panels or shovel ready jobs because Lindsey lohan is on drugs now! We are all being played by a media that has a goal of its own. I'm not talking the right wing or left wing (we know who they are) I'm talking about the msm who promotes the movies its parent corp are putting out. Who give 30 seconds to health care reform or the patriot act.

Yes lies are coming from both sides,, but John B had an excellent point, these people are making serious money off of a process where they aren't beholden to anyone to provide facts, and they often dont.

John - in reading the debate, the one thing I'd like to add... when quoting sources from extreme political positions, the credibility lessens. The more a source leans, the greater the spin placed on their statements. Just because a source claims something to be a lie, doesn't mean it is. Most of the time, context is removed just so a sensational remark can be made to accentuate the political leanings of the source.

While you may believe what your sources say, those who are of a different leaning may not. If you didn't hear what was said, and only rely on a politically leaning source, you are being led in that sources direction by design.

I listen to Beck, Rush and Hannity... not every day, but often enough. Regularly, the left spins what they say in order to try to discredit them. I've witnessed the left try to take their words out of context and spin it to mean something entirely different than what was said. If you ever go to HuffingtonPost, you can see it almost live. Partial statements with misleading context seem to happen regularly there. Its almost like a gossip fest. Very little truth and an overwelming amount of spin abounds on that site.

No wonder you rely on cut and paste, US Navy. When you don't, your posts are barely coherent.

However, I will address your nonsense - legibly.

Death panels - that was a creation of Sarah Palin, from whom anyone with good sense takes any statement with a very large, cow-lick sized grain of salt. It had some legs on Fox - and EVERY OTHER NETWORK - for a few days, and then the Democrats acted all guilty and started scribbling out that part of the bill. Why did they do that? Not because it actually called for death panels, but because they are such friggen cowards, and SUCH lousy policy makers, that they could not seem to articulate what exactly the provision did. So they gave up. If you want to be bothered, you could go back to posts of mine from that time imploring people harping about death panels to leave off. ALL the networks covered that nonsense, and trying to blame the legs the story has on Fox is a lie itself.

POTUS as Muslim. 18% of the people in this country believe that, and if you believe the surveys, about the same number believe Elvis is still alive. You'll need to prove that Fox actually pushes the notion of POTUS as Muslim, or POTUS as non-US citizen. I can prove the opposite, if you want to go there, but it might make your eyes bleed - it's a clip of O'Reilly SPECIFICALLY denouncing both of those ideas.

YOU GUYS are the ones keeping those stories alive, clinging to them like Pennsylvania residents cling to their guns and religion - according to POTUS. Do you need a link for that gem? There's a fringe that believes they are true, and there is a fringe on the left that Bush caused 9/11. Every group has a fringe, yes or no?

RE: the 200 million daily cost of the India trip. Yep, the OPINION spinsters at Fox reported that and then retracted it - egg on their face. Should they have reported on information obtained from a questionable source - the Indian media? Probably not, since I was able to figure out in a matter of less than three minutes that to rent all 550 (not 800+) rooms at the Taj Mahal Grand Hotel for three nights would only cost about $600k. If they HADN'T retracted and corrected the story, you would have a very solid point. Since they did retract and correct, your point is less solid. But I can agree, they should not have reported it.

The moral of the story is, if you're trusting Hannity, Rush or Beck - or Olbermann, Matthews or Maddow - for actual FACTS without the spin of their convictions and opinions, you're going to be disappointed. Trust and verify. And so to that point, feast your eyes on couple of not so true reports from them.

Keith Olbermann's file - seven claims, FIVE half true, or false, two mostly true.

http://politifact.com/personalities/keith-olbermann/

Maddow's file - two claims checked, both FALSE.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/rachel-maddow/statements/byruling/false/

I know you guys like to think inside your echo chamber that the left-wing media (MSNBC) is beyond reproach, but it's simiply not true.

Yeah, Joe Albany,

It is HYSTERICAL! I mean look at all that GOOD money just going to waste! Proving our point that you people have no problem paying GOOD money for crap and ignorance. A lib would think you'd be more willing to shoulder more EQUITY in the tax burden, as well.

I wonder how much education you've got there in your top 7 'power' brokers? No small coincidence that they are not the brightest lights on the porch. But truer foot soldiers could not be bought. That is the only TRUTH about them.

Pragmatic - You mean..... you really mean.... Elvis isn't alive?

Good post!

I can't believe that Elvis is not alive. That is a real downer. Next you're gonna say that Diet Dr Pepper is not really diet and the Easter bunny doesn't exist:(

Im not sure i would call it a death panel, My wifes doctors didnt call it a death panel. But We were told that our supplemental insurance policy would not be renewed as of Jan 1st and that my wife would be pushed to Medicare. Now with her particular disease (a genetic bone disease) knee, hip and shoulder replacements. Her treatments are pretty pricey, last year alone over 400k! I am told by every one of her doctors that she will have to undergo a selective medical panel review. This is to determine if the treatment is cost effective for the money being spent. Which by the way was o,k when I was paying for it. All of her doctors have told us the same thing, any doctor merely reviewing her records (all 900 pages of them) 13 volumes. Will eventually come up with the same answer, the money will be better spend someplace else. Call it what you want Navy....... I will let you know when we have the first panel review.

The November election is over and the Republican/Tea Party has gained control of the House and picked up some seats in the Senate as well. Today Monday 8, 2010 729 days till the 2012 election, and we still do not have a clear picture of what the Republican/Tea Party agenda is going to be. Not one republican/tea party member will tell us what they are going to cut to reduce the deficit and National Debt, to create jobs here in the United States (NOT China, India) or how they propose to balance the budget.

But the Tea Party arm of the Republican Party does have an agenda actually more of a threat (or ransom) to America, see below from attached URL.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/mitch-mcconnell-has-his-cojones-vise

“As it turns out, it would seem the Tea Party has the Republican leadership by the short hairs. A ransom note to Mitch McConnell from Judson Phillips at Tea Party Nation clarifies things a bit. It opens with this:

"Grow a pair." Here are some of their demands:”

“First, you can start by imposing party discipline. The days of reaching across the aisle are over. You have forty-six senators. (At the time of this writing, Washington State is still too close to call, but I do not believe Dino Rossi can get a fraud proof majority). Lisa Murkowski will also caucus with the GOP. They are also looking towards 2012 and they can count numbers just as well as you can. Many of them have been in the majority before and know how much better it is in the majority. Many of them are looking forward to being committee chairs. They need to understand, if they want to be chairs, they are going to follow orders.”

Comment: That was the more milder of the rhetoric, read on.

“The filibuster is now going to be our friend. The GOP is going to filibuster early and filibuster often. The good news is, with control of the House, we will not have to worry about killing a lot of bad spending bills. However, there are certain things that do fall exclusively to the purview of the Senate.”

Comment: Gridlock warning,

“First, no more radical judges. I do not care if another Federal judge is not approved until 2013. This is not a bad thing. No more bad treaties. The list of bad treaties that Obama wants us to sign is quite long. Just say no.

To paraphrase Gordon Gekko, “Gridlock is good.” Oh I get it, and a Dictatorship is Divine?

Comment: WOW – We have a Supreme Court that allowed these idiots to buy this election through their “Citizens United” decision, the republican barricade of the Disclosure Act, the undisclosed record contributions from the US Chamber of Commerce, American Crossroads and other “Special Interest Groups”. Now they want total control of the Supreme Court as well.

“Hmmm. Bad treaties, like the START renewal. Because somehow non-proliferation is bad? Really? But wait, there's more. It's not really a ransom note until the threat is made, after all.”

“Your job, kill the bad bills of the Obama regime. If you do, in 2012, we will see a sea of red, all across the country, as we did Tuesday night. You will be the majority leader in the Senate.”

“On the other hand, if you do not, we in the Tea Party will remember. 2010 was our first election. We did not do everything right, but one thing I will say for our movement, we learn quickly. If you want to be the majority leader after 2012, I suggest you do the same.”

Just last week the republican/tea party was using the one party rule against the democrats during the election. Now they want to go beyond one party rule all the way to complete and total one party domination. If History has taught us anything it is this model of dictatorship and oligarchy does not work in the long run. What makes you think that they will stop at just those demands listed in the letter? They will expand upon those until all our freedoms are compromised. It will not top here. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

You didn't get mad when Bush ignored all the warnings of 9/11 and got 2975 innocents killed.

You didn't get mad when Bush refused to impanel an investigative body for more than a year.

You didn't get mad when Bush refused to demand that the investigation have subpoena power.

You didn't get mad when Bush underfunded the investigation when he couldn't have Kissinger run it.

You didn't get mad when Bush wouldn't "testify" without Cheney there holding his hand.

You didn't get mad when Bush went around the country telling lies, claiming that he had seen the first plane hit the North tower that horrible morning.

You didn't get mad when Philip Zelikow got to choose which witness testimony would go in the report and what would be left out. Why should any of it have been left out?

You didn't get mad when Bush, Cheney, Fleisher and Perino repeatedly lied to you claiming that "waterboarding" detainees wasn't torture and "saved lives".

Yet you didn't get mad when Bush said, I don't really worry about catching Bin Laden anymore.

Pat, in light of the gushing, praise and virtual tongue bath you gave to Al Sharpton on Friday, you don't exactly have a lot of credibility today. Sharpton is one of the most divisive, racist, anti-semitic losers to ever grace the wonderful scene of American politics. Of course, if you don't mind that, that's your choice, Much the way that Jody on Friday expressed her feel-goodism and warmth to Cat Stevens aka Muhamand-cheese Sammich or whatever the (bleep) his name is now just two decades after he endorsed the jihad on Salman Rushdie for WRITING A BOOK.

I suggest you google "Freddies Fashion Mart or "Crown Heights Riot" or even "Tawana Brawley" to find out more about your disgusting Hater From Harlem.

As for Jody being ok with jihadidts killing people, not much hope for her no matter how much she googles. She's a "special breed" alright.

Pat, Good Morning Great Post.

None of the lefties got mad when Clinton let Bin Laden go in '96. That could have prevented all of this.

Terrific post, Pat. Where was all the GOP/TP anger from 2001 through 2008?

Chef Darrell, like a good Conservative cook you like your smears well aged. Doesn't make them any more true, though.

Richard Clarke, a terrorism expert who served under Presidents Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and George W. Bush, refutes this claim utterly. ... Clarke maintains that at no time was Clinton ever given an opportunity to capture Osama Bin Ladin that he failed to give the go order.

And if Richard Clarke's testimony isn't good enough for you, the 9/11 Commission itself discredits the claim that Clinton ever refused an offer of Osama bin Ladin on a silver platter.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/57128/the_truth_about_clinton_and_bin_ladin.html?cat=9

And how, pray tell, would killing Bin Laden have stopped 9/11?

I think copying emails is against policy.

We'll see.

Oh yes, PTAF, you're now ready to out yourself as one of the post collapsers. Pretty bold on your part, but it's been obvious for some time now that you aren't nearly as willing to consider the positions of others as you pretend.

WASHINGTON The government of Sudan, using a back channel direct from its president to the Central Intelligence Agency in the United States, offered in the early spring of 1996 to arrest Osama bin Laden and place him in custody in Saudi Arabia, according to officials and former officials in all three countries.

The Clinton administration struggled to find a way to accept the offer in secret contacts that stretched from a meeting at hotel in Arlington, Virginia, on March 3, 1996, to a fax that closed the door on the effort 10 weeks later.

Unable to persuade the Saudis to accept Mr. bin Laden, and lacking a case to indict him in U.S. courts, the Clinton administration finally gave up on the capture…

http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/ClintonAndTerrorism.htm

Looks like he had the chance but his legal team, for lack of a better word, sucked.

Chef Darrell, you've debunked your own argument. Game, set, and match;

Unable to persuade the Saudis to accept Mr. bin Laden, and lacking a case to indict him in U.S. courts, the Clinton administration finally gave up on the capture…

Maybe I should have said that Clinton's administration had a chance to capture him but wasn't smart enough to get the job done.

At any rate, there was a chance, and that chance was lost, and for that ineptitude thousands have been lost.

Which president had bin laden trained again? which president gave sadam WOMD ? who sent us to 2 wars with no exit strategy?

Seriously, GWB actually tried to get bin laden and couldn't? and you are going to whine in your beer about clinton giving up because there was no case against him?

Did anyone get mad when Bush signed more 'signing statements' than any of the previous presidents combined?

Hey, John?

Policy is policy - and not subject to my or your opinion. Obviously, since the email posts weren't collapsed or removed, you're hollaring before you're hurt.

Why am I not surprised.

So flagging posts that didn't deserve it didn't work for you this time...I'm still calling you out, PTAF. You've outed yourself.

I didn't flag the post. I made a post about a post. Deal with it, that's what people do on newsvines, make posts.

You're doing a typical left wing bullcrap maneuver - make an accusation, that the accused can't disprove, as a cowardly character assassination attempt. F - A - I - L.

You've outed yourself as a crybaby, coward and liar. I'd rather flag posts, personally.

Well, JoAnn, I think you might have a point, but, too often, it is completely one sided.

As I recall, some time ago you expressed concern about collapsed posts- I pointed out that I had never seen anything in any of your posts that would warrant your getting legitimately collapsed.

A couple of weeks ago, someone appropriated Fiesty's name, and I took the time to notify her on her Vine page, since I had not seen her on that thread, (I mean the REAL Fiesty, for the sake of clarity). I, for one, try to stay on the issues, not the posters.

You seem to do the same.

Unfortunately, we are in the minority.

Excellent Jo Anne. Sad to say that I see this morning that some of our friends are still concentrating on doing the Touchdown Shuffle in the end zone without taking the time to look back down field to see if there are any penalty flags so I'm afraid most of what your saying will fall on deaf ears. Apparently it's kind of hard for some of us to dance and listen at the same time. That multi-tasking thing you know.

no joe -

FYI, I did actually get collapsed three times a couple weeks ago - not because I broke the rules in any way, but because I was defending the First Lady against a bunch of lowlife thugs who swarmed the site that day to contribute nothing but a bunch of sick, unprintable insults about everything from her face and figure to her education and color - and yet I'm the one who got collapsed. Go figure.

But see, right there's the problem - I barely get started here, and already I'm hurling terms like "lowlife thugs" around myself - though I doubt that I actually offended any of them; they have no interest in serious debate and unlike the regular posters on here on both sides, they revel in their ignorance and racism. Them I can ignore.

But I'm finding it a little harder to ignore your saying "I, for one, try to stay on the issues, not the posters. You seem to do the same. Unfortunately, we are in the minority." Sorry, but I'm just not feeling the "we" here. Rarely a day goes by when you don't refer to liberals at least once as being Messiah-worshipping and delusional at best and liars and thieves at worst. And many of these liberals - myself included - are the ones who have rallied around you on many occasions in the past when you were experiencing both the fears and the joys of your little princess's experiences. It's invariably the regular liberals - and only the liberals - who do so. You always seem grateful for the support - but then the next minute it's right back to couching your "debate" in the same derogatory personal terms as ever.

Maybe you're one of those people who are able to separate the political from the personal in your mind - I never have been. It's kind of like the old argument that always comes up when a politician is caught cheating on his wife and his defenders immediately claim the one thing has nothing to do with the other. Sorry, but I'm of the opinion that how someone treats their family, their friends, their community, and even their opponents on a daily basis has EVERYTHING to do with their politics - and vice-versa. We're not discussing sports or music or fashion here; we're talking about some of our most fundamental values and beliefs - and if you say I'm "delusional" about mine, well, I kind of take that personally. And when you insult many of the people on here who I admire and respect, you're insulting me too.

Look, it's not just you, and it's not just me - though as I said above, I'm making an honest effort from here on out to try and clean up my act. Are you willing to say the same? I let you slide last week on the crack about how I need to get out and travel more, despite the fact that I don't think I've ever been condescended to quite so......condescendingly before. I'd actually settle for just retiring the daily litany for a while. Barack Obama is the President, not the Messiah. We don't worship him, we respect him. And the sky is not plaid, in Obama-land or anywhere else.

Deal?

CU.....your racism is showing.

Seems to me that MSNBC management has a little bit of a double-standard on its hands...

Joe Scarborough can contribute $2100 to the Republican Derrick Kitts in 2006...no big deal.

Pat Buchanan can contribute $1250 to Republican Bill Spadea in 2004, $250 to Republican George Allen in 2005, $1000 to Republican Richard Mountjoy in 2006, $500 to Republican Richard Schiffer in 2007 and $250 to Republican Walter Jones in 2008...no big deal.

But, Keith Olbermann makes a contribution to a Democrat and he gets suspended?

He "needed" to get permission.

GM

As inane as CU's post is, what part is racist? Please point out the phrase, sentence or paragraph.

Thank You.

That's NBCs policy - they have to get permission, it's in their contract.

If there is proof that those others contributed without the necessary permissions, then Olbermann was treated unfairly.

If Olbermann made contributions with the contractually agreed to permissions, he got off easy.

They could have, and probably should have fired him.

So, Pragmatic, why didn't they just FIRE Keith?

Seems to me that this was a clear violation of their policies. So why NOT just fire the guy and move on?

The reason: it was a p!ssing match between Keith and his boss, pure and simple. Keith's boss wanted to 'exert control' over Keith and used this as a means to an end. There is no love lost between Keith and his Boss and this is well documented.

2 days suspension and now the 'punishment is sufficient'?

Come on, now.

The problem is that Keith's boss is coming out on the short end of this stick (1/4 million e-mails) and he is looking like a real horses a$$ right now. This is not the LAST you will see of these two fighting.

Yep, Pietro: and what Phil Griffin get is this. We don't care about him, have no interest in what he does, UNTIL he starts messing with the on-air talent we DO like. Then, we start the support for someone like Keith who has done far more for this country than Griffin would ever dream of doing.

They're not better than that. MSNBC and other major outlets refuse to issue stories that would benefit middle America. They operate on the same level as the Republithugs with a message of doom and gloom knowing that is what generates the revenue. If there were rainbows with little unicorns dancing in the sky, the headline would be,

"PRESIDENT OBAMA FAILS TO UNDERSTAND UNICORNS AND REPUBLITHUGS LOVE RAINBOWS"

Republithug influenced journalism is truly priceless.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Sorry FR, you are WRONG. The President regretted that there wasn't more compromise. That isn't the same thing as saying the WH FAILED. The Party of NO refused to even support things that they had PREVIOUSLY SUPPORTED. They fully intend to continue this strategy now. C'mon FR guys, you're better than that.

Ain't that the beautiful truth? Don't worry the story line will be different because the Republican/ Tea Party will not compromise; thus it will give even more credence to their lies and demise . They and FOX NOISE aka Republican campaign headquarters have no ethics or conscience.

John, POTUS admitted to too little compromise and to engaging in the exact hyperpartisan, uncivilized rhetoric he claimed to want to rise above while campaiging in '08.

Do you want FR to ignore his words, or call POTUS a liar.

Beverly, do you ever get tired of spewing the same old tired talking points? Obviously not, but I can assure you reading them over and over is boring - especially the foolishly lopsided ones in post 8.2, "...Republican campaign headquarters have no ethics or conscience".

As low as the Democrats have set the bar for ethics and conscience, it's astounding to me that you would still find the Republicans lacking. If anything, it seems more obvious than ever that neither party has either in abundance.

Wow PTAF, excellent example of the false argument known as "Excluding the middle". The President admitted his attempts at compromise failed, therefore he must be "hyperpartisan" and "uncivilized".

John B-

I agree with you 100%.

Plus the Rethugs want to keep the tax cuts permanent.....won't that add to the debt.

Cantor over the weekend said the tax cuts have been helping the job market....I'm sorta confused didn't the tax cuts start in 2001 and 2003. So where is he getting that the tax cuts are helping the job market as of today. The way I look at that the tax cuts should have started to create more jobs since 2001 instead of 2010.

Do Republicans have an actual plan that addresses an actual problem? If so they've yet to share it with anyone outside the Star Chamber.

Nashville_fan

Seeing the media tap dancing on what they perceive to be "Obama's political grave".

"What Obama must do"

Especially that Mitch McConnell, Nash; I saw a while back where he had called all the Republicans Senators in his office immediately after the President won to tell them to just say "NO" would be their strategy. I didn't bookmark it. I 've been trying to Google it for days. I suppose it's been removed since it's proof they had no intention to cooperate.

Here is one article discussing the beginning of the GOP's "Decry and Lie" Strategy Beverly:

"But it’s a harsh welcome to partisan politics for a president who is making a dramatic gesture in coming to the Hill to meet with Republicans Tuesday.

A House Republican lawmaker tells ABC News GOP legislators prepared part of their talking points in opposition to the Economic Stimulus bill at today's morning Conference, before their scheduled afternoon meeting with President Obama. . .

House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., criticized GOP leaders for putting out marching orders before their meeting with the president.

“They’ve issued that [request that members vote against the bill] before even discussing that with the president of the United States,” Hoyer said. “They’ve taken a political stance.”

Hoyer said Republicans will have an opportunity to offer amendments -- as well as a complete substitute measure -- on the House floor.

He also questioned whether Republican leaders want to find a package they can support, saying they have set an unrealistic bar by insisting that their ideas carry the day.

“Being bipartisan does not mean having to lay down and say, ‘We’ll do whatever you want,’ ” Hoyer said. “Being bipartisan is saying, ‘We’ll talk, we’ll figure it out. If we can agree, we’ll agree.’ ”

“It takes two people to tango, and it takes two parties and two groups to be bipartisan,” he added."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/01/gopers-should-v.html

Nashville_fan

Thank you Nash,

I'm going to continue the search for Mitch McConnell meeting where he called every republican senator in his office to lay out the strategy of "NO" right after the President won.

@JOe in Albany

Gee, Bev, the USDOL Bureau of Labor Statistics, which compiles the unemploymet data thinks it was 10.1% according to its web site.

Economists had expected payrolls to increase a modest 60,000 last month, with private employment rising 75,000. Furthermore, data for August and September were revised to show 110,000 fewer jobs were lost than previously thought. Companies created more net new jobs in October than in any month or what President Georgie boy did in 8 yrs; for that matter.

I'm not calling you a stupid tea bagger as most would. I'm just saying-- I wrote what was revised. So you're wrong.

@PragmaticToAFault

Ditto. the operative words there are you can't prove it; meaning it does exists but the donors are undisclosed.

@Navy

The Republican /Tea baggers need to learn it's not taxes that create jobs; it's demand!!

Great post, Nash---I'm with you. One of the things I noticed in the closing weeks of the election was that the President generates interest and enthusiasm when he is in public venues. I hope the White House noticed this as well and adjusts his schedule to allow for more time for us to see him and interact with him---I think it would benefit both sides. I do think he has been working so hard on the many issues that face us that he got cut off from the people.

Steeler Fan , Well, I know for a FACT Obama Came to Columbus, Ohio 12 Times to campaign for Ted Strictland For Governor. Biden 6 times. The Repulican still won... I dont believe the American People are Listening to the liar in chief ...in any venue!

Jody, repealing Barry's ClunkerCare HCR IS a job creating program. Small businesses are not hiring, in part, because they don't know how much extra any new hires will cost them for their ClunkerCare bills. Remove that uncertainty and they have one less reason to hold off on their hiring.

Small businesses like BECHTEL, Joe? I call Bullsh!t.

They are still harping on HCR because they still think that is President Obama's Waterloo. They talk about the mandate, which by the way, was put into the bill by the insurance companies. They wanted a way to pay for providing care for pre-existing conditions, unlimited benefits and not being able to deny coverage when you get sick. The only way to do that was guarantee them more customers. HCR is not going to be repealed any time soon.

The republican/tea party is going to play this and subpoenas to divert the American people away from one thing. "The Economy". Just like Cantor going to blame the President when he shuts dow the government and creates world wide financial terror, they are going to let the economy tank and blame him for that as well come 2012.

We know this because they keep telling us that is what they are going to do. McConnell told President Obama he wants him to fail, Boehner will not compromise and the Tea Party is now making their demands to the republicans, see my post above.

The sh!t is going to hit the fan.

Can't everyone "pull a ROVE" and simply ignore congressional subpoenas now? Karl didn't bother, why should anyone else.

Jody there isn't going to be any jobs, not in the U.S. anyway, the only thing on the agenda for the U.S. after the "people spoke" November 2cnd is a more rapid decline in the standard of living for most, the FED intends to give Wall Street another trillion to play with to drive up inflation, peoples wages are no longer linked to inflation, the cost of living raise is dead, businesses are in the drivers seat as far as setting wages and benefits, the employee has no leverage. The question I have for all the greedy bastards that enjoy enriching themselves at the expense of the less fortunate is, What is going to happen when people get up, put in a good days work everyday and at the end of the month realize they can no longer pay for the necessities of life?

What I find odd is republicans who think they may never have a pre-existing condition, never have a serious illness and have their insurance cancelled, never lose their insurance, never have a child born with a pre-existing condition but particularly what I find odd is the willingness of republicans to accept the concept that health care doesn't matter, isn't important because the republican party says so. Someday, anyone of these GOP/TP supporters will likely find themselves on the short-end of the health insurance stick the same as every other American who never thought it would happen to them.

Jody;

If they do have a plan, (you would think that they had something inmind before the election??), they are not telling us yet because I suspect it will be the opposite of what they promised, or lead us to believe by not answering questions and running away.

I guess we will have to wait to see what they are going to do. I hope they tell us before 2012.

Where's the jobs, Boehner? Why would you start with repealing Health Care Reform, you promised to focus on jobs?

Because HCR raises the costs of hiring workers.

"What I find odd is republicans who think they may never have a pre-existing condition, never have a serious illness and have their insurance cancelled, never lose their insurance, never have a child born with a pre-existing condition but particularly what I find odd is the willingness of republicans to accept the concept that health care doesn't matter, isn't important because the republican party says so. Someday, anyone of these GOP/TP supporters will likely find themselves on the short-end of the health insurance stick the same as every other American who never thought it would happen to them."

Now you are making the moral argument for HCR. Unfortunately all the benefits you outline above cost money and HCR is asking businesses to pay some of it. So, on one hand you ask why repealing HCR will help create jobs and on the other you support the additional costs. Your position is illogical. This is why HCR is so disliked. Democrats tried to sell it as a painless and cost free change. "If you like your insurance you can keep it"...probably the biggest political lie since "Read my lips, no new taxes". HCR will cost $1T+, and the money has to come from somewhere.

Just you: Nothing is jammed down your throats besides Dick Cheney.

Paul you look reallY funny wearing your "truther" tin foil hat.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Mass murder, and it's coverup, are comedy to RE-peat-the-lie-to-the-PUBLIC-ans. Proof that they have sold their souls to the devil.

Just Me---See what you get when you try to talk some sense into these people? You were absolutely right. The Dems over and over think that their problem is that Americans are too stupid to understand their message. Truth is, we understand. We just don't like the message. And speaking of truth, did you know that Paul is a "9/11 was an inside job", tinfoil hat wearing, card-carrying member of the Grassy Knoll Society? He's still waiting for Elvis to come back and sing a duet with Sasquatch.

And they're intent on dragging the rest of us into hell with them, apparently.

Just me, you are absolutely right.

Obama is like a doctor treating a patient who presents with abdominal pain, vomiting, and high fever with pain relievers and anti nausea drugs. When the patient dies of a burst appendix, he bemoans the family blaming his treatment, as he did all he could to help.

The fact that the family sues is then categorized as their not understanding his treatment plan.

The fact that he failed is not up for discussion, as he cannot admit that he did, in fact, fail.

What BS. What about a party that stops a bill when 59 Senators vote yes and 39 vote no (that is 60% are in favor) and the bill goes down by filibuster, who is shoving what down whose throat. How about one lone republican stalling the ARRA extension, or denying the promised relief to Hati, who is shoving what down whose throat?? What about unemployment extensions and the National Defense Budget?

Get real.

" We don't want it and won't accept the policies" Isn't it funny how people like "Just me" think they speak for EVERYONE? Delusions of grandeur, what? See here is the thing, Just me. While I am constantly amused by the right wing's continual demonstration of ignorance about the Constitution, there is that whole "protect the minority from the tyranny (and stupidity) of the majority." But, keep on repeating the Faux News lies, always amazes me how adults buy into that nonsense.

John B;

Selective memory. They would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit their A$$. After all, the law allows them to say whatever they want, true or not, with no responsibility.

Not going to change anytime soon. Glad to see Keith back, I heard over 250,000 e-mails in just a few days asking for his return.

Gullible hook, line, and sinker; sinker being the operative word!!!!

You know it!

It took less than a week for the righties to come out and slap them up side their thick heads by admitting what their REAL agenda is!

HINT: it's not the one they were snookered into voting for!

PT Barnum would be proud! lol

Feisty;

How true. There is a very good reason why the republican/tea part is not saying anything yet. Karl Rove is still trying to figure out he is going to spin it.

The agenda will support Wall Street over Main Street again, It will support Big Business over Small Business again and of course they have to take care of the top 2% as well since they helped them buy this election with record campaign funds that nobody knows where they came from (foreign and domestic).

Many companies are terminating their relationship with the US Chamber of Commerce, stock holders want to know what was spent on who and why. We have not heard the last of this.

I do not believe in the next 2 years that the republican/tea party will correct what damage they did during the previous administration. Instead it is going to be a witch hunt on President Obama, more obstructionism and grid lock.

Time will tell and we Americans are watching.

Howard Kurtz is at best an UNreliable source.

In intel and military, no one ever seems to be fired, demoted or prosecuted for their failures and derelictions of duty.

Paul, some even get elected to Congress...Allan West in Fl. The right is very good a rewarding bad behaviour...as long as it is their guy/gal.

When during your first attempt at a compromise it turns out that the people had decided before even speaking with you that they were not going to compromise, how many more times are you expected to try to compromise? Especially with people who have said their mission is to bring you down.

I had not heard that Chris Hayes said thanks but no thanks, glad to hear that!

Proud Republican........your guys didn't want to work with us, now you are on the hot seat, what are you going to do now? It is time to look forward and maybe move forward, but from the comments from your leaders and what I have read, doesn't sound like that is going to happen. Most of your cohorts and fellow goptps are more intent on revenge and destructive motives.

I say that your "messiah" slur betrays your irrational hatred of Barack Obama. It's an incredible abuse of scripture meant to convince Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians that the President is in fact a supernatural manifestation of the End Times. http://o.bamapost.com/

I say that you and all Conservatives who seek to use this advice should be ashamed of yourselves...though you never will be because you've already demonstrated that you know no shame.

None can address the question.........hmmm

pr, repetition isn't affirmation, and your inistence on repeating a point that's been refuted all up and down this page doesn't make it true. "Compromise" failed. Try to work out why;

Republican Rep. Eric Cantor of Virginia, who is expected to become the new House majority leader in January, questioned on "Fox News Sunday" whether there was any benefit to compromising with President Barack Obama.

The question was not whether Obama was willing to work with Republicans, as he stated last week, but, "Are we willing to work with him?" Cantor asked.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11/07/election.post.mortem/index.html

Speaking of outsourcing, anybody remember this?

Bush backs transfer of U.S. ports to Dubai firm

Bipartisan criticism accompanies deal expected to be finalized in March

Brushing aside objections from Republicans and Democrats alike, President Bush endorsed the takeover of shipping operations at six major U.S. seaports by a state-owned business in the United Arab Emirates. He pledged to veto any bill Congress might approve to block the agreement.

The president on Tuesday defended his administration’s earlier approval of the sale of London-based Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co. to Dubai Ports World, despite concerns in Congress it could increase the possibility of terrorism at American ports.

The pending sale — expected to be finalized in early March — puts Dubai Ports in charge of major shipping operations in New York, New Jersey, Baltimore, New Orleans, Miami and Philadelphia. “If there was any chance that this transaction would jeopardize the security of the United States, it would not go forward,” Bush said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/11/AR2006021101112.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Ports_World_controversy

How soon we forget.

Unfortunately Skip, it wont happen with this Congress and with the polarization of our country we may only be wishful thinking for any time in the future.

Well GingerBread Mamma, we'd better do something. We've got a whole lot of people in this country who beleive every lie and half-truth they are told by Limbaugh, Beck and company.

We've got a good man and woman in the White House. They are working hard to make things better for ALL OF US, yet people judge their accomplishments by the standards set by hate radio and faux news.

President Obama headed off a world-wide financial collapse that would have made the Great Depression look like a "market adjustment". He's putting people back to work, slowly, but surely, he's making BP pay for their mistakes, he's bringing our troops home and he's actually DOING A GOOD JOB.

But if all you listened to was Faux news and Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck you would think he was a leftist, commie, marxist, socialist, nazi, muslim satanist.

We've got to do something to restore balance so that people can once again make INFORMED decisions, not MISINFORMED decisions.

Well said, Skip. Somehow the American people must become better informed. I think the MSM TV media fails to often to debunk the lies told on FOX or right-wing media. I watched Face the Nation yesterday and not once did Bob Schieffer hold McConnell's feet to the fire on the tax cuts for the wealthy issue, not once did he ask how the GOP/TP plans to pay for the $700 billion subsidy to the wealthy, how that will not add to the deficit and the debt.

You are right Jody. I never thought I would say this in a million years, but BOY do I miss Dan Rather.

The media are so concerned they'll be labeled "Liberal" they have bent over backwards and have failed to do their jobs.

They let Bush run rampant for nearly his entire Presidency, when if they had done just a mediocre job we could have been spared a lot of heartache and wasted lives.

We need journalists to step up and do their JOBS.

I know, I am a former, PEABODY award winning journalist. I'm not in the business anymore, but if the MSM don't start doing something to earn their pay FAUX news and Info-tainment are going to be the death of this country.

WE NEED THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE NOW!

skip and Jody:

The death of the media is a symptom of them being employees of those who are actually destroying our country.

That is a built in conflict of interest that will not be overcome, because the corporate employer doesn't want it to be, and because the media outfits need the money they get from corporate sponsors and anonymous lie-filled ads.

And of course, "the guvment" can't sponsor any media.

And "we the people" are too busy arguing narrowly defined points as assigned by the corporations.

I have realized that the "debunking lies after they are told" business will always be too little too late, because while you are off digging up "the truth", the "corporate people" are busily spewing out another lie, like last week's "India trip costs $200 million dollars a day" boondoggle.

I hate to say it, but until the American people decide to demand the truth, nothing is going to change. Sadly, because most Americans think that they already know the truth, I'm thinking that the "mass hypnosis" of America coupled with the systematic selling of the country will continue unabated.

Those who are profiting from the status quo will be fine no matter what. The rest of us can pass the time arguing over crumbs and blaming each other for things that happened above most of our paygrades.

Basically, the "corporate people" are selling "lotto tickets" to the masses, and that chance to win is a hell of a lot more appealing than "affordable health care" and "pulling cars out of ditches".

Sad but true.

Here's a thought. Why in the HELL do we even care who the most influential pundits and pols are?

WHY?

Because they are shaping the way America thinks and votes. AND LOOK WHO'S DOING THE SHAPING? Almost all of them right-wing, hate and lie-mongers.

Is it any wonder why this country is in the sad shape it is in?

Look at Oklahoma folks. This is LIMBAUGH LAND. We're going to try the "One Party System" here. The Legislature is all GOP and Dixiecrats (Democrats in name only) and now our Governor is going to be a GOP rubber stamp. Keep an eye on Oklahoma. Our next Legislative session is going to be a harbinger of things to come for the entire country if we don't do something and do it soon.

Take pity on us here because we are truly in for a very rough ride with no end in sight.

Skip - The media are so concerned they'll be labeled "Liberal" they have bent over backwards and have failed to do their jobs.

I agree.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, Skip, Nashville, Jody regarding the failure of journalism; I suggest you all watch the movie "Fair Game". I saw it over the weekend. It tells the story of the Valerie Plame outing.

Just one time where the media flipped the script during the Bush years. They reported that Ambassador Wilson was the husband of a CIA agent. To them the story was more about supposed nepotism instead of the fact that Wilson caught Bush and Co. cherry picking unsubstantiated data to justify going to War.

Hey Mark, thanks for the tip. But, I'm afraid to see the movie. It will bring up so many bad memories of the Bush White House and how the media failed to do it's job. I don't think I could stand it. I know my doctor would caution me not to go. Too many blood pressure spikes might cause a stroke. It's about all my system can take to look at these message boards a couple of times a day.

I'm thinking Costa Rica for retirement.

Skip, I couldn't agree with more. I had to leave to do some errands, Jody says it best.

I feel for you in OK, I followed your Governor's race and was disappointed in the result. You are almost as bad as we are in Fl. I don't know how bad behaviour can be counted as a positive regardless of party and is one area that I feel the MSM does not do a good job.

More should be made of a candidates' failings in the area of ethics and poor moral values. i don't know how we can combat the effects of rightwing mics, I think their success points to something in our pscyhe as a nation, I find it very disturbing that so many of our fellow citizens are hellbent on travelling the road to hatred and revenge without a thought as to how the country will fare over time. That road is severly in need of repair.

Yep, Costa Rica sounds promising, but I will stay and fight the good fight if not for me then for my grandchildren.

Skip, I do miss Dan Rather because he would not have given McConnell or any legislator, regardless of party, a get out of jail free card. He would have challenged them. The sad thing about Rather's departure, his story about Bush was accurate even if his investigation was flawed.

Yeah, you've got to admire a guy who gets banned from the Nixon White House and that was a sad end to a pretty admirable career.

Thanks Ginger and Jody, I appreciate your kind words and thoughts.

I work for the State of Oklahoma and I'm terrified what the coming legislative session is going to mean. They are already talking about raiding our pensions and so on. I may be forced into an early retirement just to preserve what little I have.

But we're soldiering on, doing what we can to mitigate the loonie bin we laughingly call our State legislature. And they wonder why we can't attract more industry to Oklahoma. Gee, what a mystery.

I find it amusing and frustrating that Boehner/McConnell say the people have spoken, the majority rules yet when President Obama won and democrats controlled Congress, the GOP/TP did not listen to the majority voters; instead they took the path that the minority rules because the voters must have been wrong.