Looks like we were on the same page this morning about that TN fire.

Reverend Phelps represents no religion I know, and certainly has no respect for life or compassion. There was an article a few months ago about a military man's funeral in Iowa where this so-called preacher and his followers were protesting. Bless the huge group of Veterans motorcycle clubs who arrived ahead of the protestors and lined up in front of them so the family could not see the ugly signs or hear their hateful words. Apparently these motorcycle groups show up whenever they learn of Phelp's planned attendance.

IR:

Should be interesting to see what the Supreme Court rules on this. While I believe in free speech I also believe that this right comes with responsibilities as well. Just because the law may imply that you can do something does not mean you should. Again we are seeing the lack of any moral or ethical compass of some of our citizens.

Just look at the crap on Facebook, YouTube etc that has destroyed lives. I think as a nation we have gone too far in some of the things we do in the name of Free Speech.

IR, Jody, Navy, Bev, Pat:

Excellent, excellent posts this morning. The momentum is slowing turning in favor of the Democrats. The Republicans cannot argue facts with their opinions. The worst of these is Glen Beck. He is one sick puppy.

Yeh Jody and Navy I’m sometimes amazed when I come here to share a thought or two how often good folks minds run in the same channels. Looks to me like you'll said it better than I ever could

Lot of the Harley guys have taken up the defense of the families and loved ones from this crowd of Yahoo’s. Saw the other evening where some of them have even went out and bought a suit and tie so that they knew the proper respect was being shown. Good on them

Of course not, IR, but the failure that happened in Tennessee is just the natural outflow from what Tea Partiers -- and conservatives in general -- are trying to sell. In that sense, it presents an excellent cautionary tale at the microcosmic level. I wonder whether if you had asked that homeowner two weeks ago what he thought of "Nanny Government" and if you asked him the same question today, his answers might be different. Because Nanny Government is what he is now essentially saying should have happened -- the government should have saved him from himself -- he started that fire, after all -- even though he wasn't willing to pay the necessary fee. (I don't buy the argument that he just "forgot").

The lesson that must be taken away is NOT that firefighters are heartless, but rather that nowadays, government is both heartless and gutless -- taxes are necessary, and not evil, and not just as it relates to firefighting in a small Tennessee town, but as to society as a whole. Having both the sense and the courage to spread the risk and the cost of firefighting over the entire community through taxation -- and not leaving it to whim -- is how this SHOULD have come down.

Independent Redneck Va.

Apparently somewhere the sense of common human decency has been lost in this community.

Again you have exposed what US will get if we the fiscal conservative hounds and extremely crazy ideas the TEA PARTY has.

I wouldn’t be in any rush to celebrate just yet; if I were a TB. Republican leaders and TBs alike have failed to account for:
a) how fatally flawed their candidates are fanatically cases in point

Cristine ODonell
Sharon Angle
Carl Palidino
Jim Demint
Just to name a few

b) how much the American people are rejecting their agenda to outsource jobs overseas
c) privatizing Social Security
d) dismantling Medicare
e) repealing new checks on Wall Street
f) disallowing gays and single women to teach
g) extreme interpretations of the constitution

h) not taking care of veterans; yet TBs are so patriotic

i) no funding of research & development

Who needs an immoral, misguided out of touch Tea Party that happy clappy vitalizes powerful, corporate interests?

Keep up the good work.

Keith Olbermann seems to be the one who brought the story about the fire department letting a man's house burn down to national attention. No wonder the wingers hate that guy. It's revealed a lot about the unbelievable cruelty and stupidity of far-right pundits like Jonah Goldberg, who actually praised the town government for their policy. According to Goldberg, it will be a lesson to other deadbeats to pay up on their fire department fee -- or else. Goldberg wasn't the only right wing extremist who showed his true colors. Several others also praised the town's "pay per spray" policy and attacked the victim.

Conservatives didn't care at all that the man's pets were allowed to burn to death in the fire, or that in another incident, several horses were left to burn to death in a barn because the owner had failed to pay his $75 fee. Olbermann asked whether it would be OK with the right wingers if the fire deparment also let human beings burn to death if they didn't pay their fee. That would be even MORE of an object lesson to other deadbeats. If this is the sort of people that voters want to hand over the country to because they're mad at Obama for not cleaning up the mess conservatives created, then God help us.

I would like to think, IR, that these examples of indecent behavior are the exception--we hear about them because they are media catnip. I think there are many examples every day of quiet heroism and decency that we don't hear about. Maybe I'm naive--I still want to believe in Santa Claus, too!

Rev. Phelps and his supporters are beyond my understanding and I do believe beyond any decency but they still have First Amendment rights. I would expect the Court to uphold their rights and then I would expect people on the right be outraged. They seem to believe that the First Amendment applies only to them---they have the right to say and do anything and if anyone interferes with that it is a violation of their First Amendment rights (whether it is the government or not--witness the flap over Dr. Laura) but if what anyone else says is disturbing to them or they just don't like it, it is perfectly OK to suppress that speech. And they also seem to believe that anyone who defends the First Amendment rights of folks like Rev. Phelps secretly agrees with them.

Free speech issues have already been decided before and slander and inciting a riot are still illegal. Not sure way the SCOTUS would need or want to hear another case. The fact that they will hear the case suggests some refinements may be issued.

Seems like to me that the senior citizens would be really worried about voting when it comes to the Rethugs since they are for privatizing social security or do away with it completely along with medicare. All of the programs that senior citizens use when they retire.

I just seem to understand why would they do that to themselves.

independent redneck- these are the ways of the compassionate conservatives, plain and simple. these people didnt pay the price in the new "me the people" of the united states so they wound up losing everything they owned. after the next elections im sure this will be expanded to hospitals- if you have a heart attack and no insurance dont bother with calling an ambulance or going to the hospital- either say your prayers or just bend way over and kiss your butt good bye-

welcome to life in a limbaugh/beck/palin/boehner america.

Anna Molly good to see you been to long. Just to expand a little on what your trying to get across (I’ll rely on you to correct me if I’m wrong) In researching on this matter I found where the local county government decided to go to this subscription method rather than raising the property taxes in the county 13 cents per. Seems like to me in this case they abrogated one of the basic reasons for government mainly providing for the safety of the public.

Typo.....left out don't in the last sentence. Should read I just don't seem....

Houston!:

Please, let's play fair here. It is not right to throw around the word "conservative" as though it were synonymous with cruel, or heartless, or uncaring. I hate being called a "liberal" as though it were synonymous with spendthrift or gutless.

Like it or not, this story should serve as a very valuable object lesson in what can happen with what is essentially "privatization". Hmmmmmmmmm! Government bad, privatization good?

Beverly:

I can't believe I actually read one of your posts before it was collapsed. That said, I think you misunderstand the mindset of the TB'ers. I have now come to accept the notion that they do not see their candidates as flawed, much less fatally flawed.

I think the folks who come to these threads have a great deal more interest in the political world than most. A vastly greater number of people simply have no clue about what is going on. When the polls are taken, identity politics rears its ugly head. No informed person could vote for Christine O'Donnell, but she has an (R) after her name and that's all she needs.

Angle, Miller, Paladino, O'Donnell? Come on! Forget the political correctness for a moment. The plain unvarnished truth is these people are stupid and/or crazy. That is not an ad hominem assault. That's the truth.

What really scares me is that Republicans WILL vote. They always turn out in greater percentages than Dems. Our crop of ill-educated youngsters has no idea that many have only recently been given the right to vote at the age of 18, that they have only recently been given greater control over their own bodies, and that they have very recently gained access to health insurance.

All of that, and more, must be protected. So much is at stake. We have to get the vote out.

I would like to know whether or not insurance companies start raising rates on all homeowners because of the increased number and cost of fires. Insurance companies also base rates on the nearness of the fire department, etc., and they will either nullify the ordinance or re-write policies for people who live in areas with "for-subscription" fire departments. If someone moves or is new to an area, they are at risk. And let us all hope that the fire department doesn't have an arsonist in its midst....if they see that someone is not a subscriber, how hard would it be to use that house in order to set an example.

They wont raise rates, they will just require evidence the fee has been paid before they write the policy. If you have no evidence, they wont cover you.

Seems to me that Rev. Phelps and his supporters are treading on thin ice. Not legally, because I believe the supreme court will uphold their right to protest. But I believe they're on thin ice because they are protesting - loudly - against the honor of fallen service men and women, whose brothers and sisters in arms will elect to fight to protect their honor over freedom of speech. What will finally silence this group is a couple of well-placed grenades by people who will still be willing to sacrifice themselves for the honor of their fallen friends or loved ones. It will be tragic, and America may be thrown into an ethical firestorm for it. But it will be the only message that will finally get through to people who believe that there is no tax on free speech, especially when dealing with those service personnel and their families who were - and still are - willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of protecting honor.

The story about the house bruning to the ground while firemen watched is a compelling one.

I saw the gentleman on Keith Olbermann last night and he stated it has been communicated to him that some of the firemen in at the scene later went home and cried and were sick to their stomach that they had to do this. It is the law and they had no choice.

There are no winners in this sad story but plenty of losers. My heart aches for all of the principles except the people who had the power to make an exception and chose not to.

They will reap what they have sown. That's just karma!

Leads me to the Whitman saga. She too will reap a harvest of rot for the way she purportedly treated her hired help. I'm sure she thought because they were being paid a higher than average wage that she could just treat them any kind of way. Not so.

Anyway it looks like she has spent over $140 million dollars and will still lose the race. Karma?

Like others, I believe in the First Amendment and the right to speak freely. I do not believe what the trolls at Westboro qualifies as free speech though. Their language is inflammatory and definitely used to cause harm. Though not physical, the mental harm they cause to those grieving is just as damaging as if they took clubs and beat them over the head. I am not a lawyer or even know that much about how our system works, I do, however, recognize when someone is deliberately assaulting another. What the Westboro trolls are doing is assault.

Rick's Real. before you get all carried away with your grenade throwing I'm going to remind you of a position that I've taken with several of the Militia groups that thought recruitment of an old Redneck for their cause was just a wonderful idea. Any body that advocates doing bodily harm to a fellow American for just expressing an opinion or exerciseing their rights no matter how nuuty ain't going to find much of a fan in me unless they are exhibiting the same tendaecy to do somebody bodily harm. The Harley Vets have the right idea and seem to be having a lot of success with it by simply interposing themselves between the good Rev. and the folks that they do harm to. I can vote for that and hope that it doesn't lead to a confrontation.

I have to disagree with you all on the fire, here we have another person unwilling to pay for a public service, but expect it to be there when they need it.

Is this a harsh stance? Yes it is.

Is it terrible that his animal were in the home? Of course it is.

Was this the hardest thing that these firefighters have had to? Probably.

But that doesn't change the fact that this man had no intention of paying the service fee, and didn't much care until he needed that service.This is a harsh reality, but the sad truth is that one of the reasons our country is going broke is that there a large number of people dependent on govt. services that don't pay for them, and this an example of what happens when you neglect you responsibilities.

I went to school with the first generation of Phelps' kids back in the '70's. They were nice and quiet. We in town knew Fred was a little different, he was both a lawyer and a minister, and came up with the "brilliant" idea that with a large family he could declare himself a church and avoid taxes. (Do you tea partiers see a pernicious pattern that you are fostering?) Fred was otherwise harmless until the "moral majority" and the Christian Right unleased their agenda. Before then eveyone had a gay uncle or cousin, and no one cared. Now we have all these false prophets standing on every corner (or on Fox) shouting at us.

but the sad truth is that one of the reasons our country is going broke is that there a large number of people dependent on govt. services that don't pay for them...

Government services are paid by tax dollars, so everyone does pay for services. The subscription to the fire department makes it a private service, yet it is using public roads and water and electricity to provide that service. Does the fire company charge people who use it for the gallons of water used to fight the fire? The reason our country is going broke is because there are too many people who think that they shouldn't contribute to the government for services, while being unaware of how public money is used for things we all take for granted.

CA relying on Brown to save them?? What a joke. Meg was their last best chance. CA will be bankrupt soon and they are certainly not out of denial yet.

So sad the Democrat Polices of the Mayor and the three council Members allowed this mans house to burn down. What a sad day, and really is a True Representation of the Demcorat party..

As for the degradation of American morality: Every Phelps nut-job and every firefighter who watches a house burn down is completely negated by the heroism of one guy here in California who ran a pervert off the road to rescue an 8 year old girl.

"Just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right and decent."

This ought to be a plaque up at every courthouse in the country. The courts exist to enforce laws. It's up to individual citizens to do what's right.

Letting someone's house burn down? It may be legal. It's far from right.

Besmirching a funeral by picketing it? It may be legal - we'll be hearing the Supreme Court's view soon. It's far from right.

David Walker:

Please, let's play fair here. It is not right to throw around the word "conservative" as though it were synonymous with cruel, or heartless, or uncaring.

I know not all people who are conservatives are this cruel. I should have said "these conservatives pundits" meaning the right wing pundits who attacked the victim of the fire and praised the city for denying him aid. Olbermann did mention that one of them actually suggested that it was immoral to let the man's house burn down, but that guy seemed to be in a minority of one.

Sorry, but from everything I've seen and read for the past 9 years, the contemporary brand of extreme conservatism that has taken over the GOP has become virtually synonymous with selfishness, cruelty, bigotry, and heartlessness -- with a heaping helping of dishonesty thrown in for good measure.

Kate-

The problem in this situation is that this man lived outside of the South Fullerton limits, which means he was not paying taxes to fund that public service. He and his neighbors live in an unincorporated area. That means they can either start a volunteer fire department or pay the $75.00 fee to utilize the South Fullerton Fire Dept. The area has decided to use the SF Fire Dept, and he decided not pay the fee. That's fine, that's his decision, but he knew the risks, and only wanted to pay the fee once his house was actually on fire.

Now lets imagine this scenario.

The fire department shows up and puts out the fire regardless of the fact that this man has not paid the fee. now his neighbors who paid the fee for services see that it really doesn't matter if you pay the fee or not the fire depatment is still going to show up and help, now they stop paying the fee also. Soon it spreads to all of the outlying area and no one in the unicorporated areas are paying the fee, but the SF Fire Dept is still showing up and providing the service to those not subsidizing it's existance. Do you see where this is going?

This is a case where you get what you pay for, and the home owner got exactly what he paid for.

Brutus CA

The fire department shows up and puts out the fire regardless of the fact that this man has not paid the fee. now his neighbors who paid the fee for services see that it really doesn't matter if you pay the fee or not the fire depatment is still going to show up and help, now they stop paying the fee also. Soon it spreads to all of the outlying area and no one in the unicorporated areas are paying the fee, but the SF Fire Dept is still showing up and providing the service to those not subsidizing it's existance.

If San Francisco followed the lead of these idiots in Tennessee, the thing that would be spreading is FIRE. A fire started in one house can spread quickly unless its extinguished at its source.

Do you see where this is going?

I can't believe where this argument is going. By the"logic" of conservatives, if someone who doesn't have health insurance rushes to an emergency room when he becomes deathly ill, the ER people should just let him die on the floor. That's one less deadbeat who's a burden on taxpayers, who are the ones who ultimately pick up the tab for ER services for the indigent. That's health care "reform" that Jonah Goldberg and his ilk could enthusiastically support.

Houston,

Nice Try but its the Policies of the Democrats in office that allowed this guys house to burn down . To try and Equate it with Republicans polices is a Joke, this is what Democrats do everytime. It is the Democrat mayor and the 3 Democrat Council Members that voted to do away with the Fire Department in the rural part of this county.

This is the problem with you Democrats, its a Democrat Voted Polices and yet you still try and blame Republicans.

OK... at the risk of exposing myself to the ridicule of the bleeding hearts out here...

There are concequences for the actions we take (or in this case don't take). Don't pay your fees and you are gambling that you won't need the fire department. In this case... the gamble did not pay off. (Sorry)

WAIT! Isn't he ENTITLED to fire protection? After all this IS America!

Unfortunately someone has to pay for these things and he decided that he did not want to participate. (bad decision as it turns out.) You want fire protection then BUCK UP!

I am sure that this is all some EVIL CORPORATION'S fault. Perhaps we can tax them to cover our fire protection? Yeah... that's the ticket!

This is typical of the free-loading attitute that the 'progressives' have pushed for so long. Don't play by the rules... it's ok... big government will take care of you ;-)

I had tears in my eyes listening to this. And the City Council condoned it and acted like it was no big deal to let a family's house burn to the ground - with pets inside. Wonder if they would be so nonchalant if there were human beings inside. I am truly surprised however the firefighters did not take it upon themselves to just to what they are supposed to do. It is truly sad when a person or persons can sit by and watch another lose their home and just stand there. The good people of that rural community should run that council out of town. Shame on them!!!!!!

I am afraid you are right - the Supreme Court will quite possibly side with those freak people. There are limits to the 1st Amendment, I mean you can't yell fire in a crowded building thereby causing a riot. Surely, the family and friends have a right to privacy when burying a loved one, especially one who has died in service to this country. When I first read about these freaks, I remember there being a group of veteran motorcyclists who took it upon themselves to escort the family and keep those freaks away. Now that is the American way. Unfortunately, with all the hate mongering in certain circles, this seems to be becoming the norm.

I, for one, refuse to give in to that sort of hatefulness. I will continue to believe that we as Americans are better than this. I hope the American people take a step back and realize just how utterly uncaring and thoughtless this makes us seem. If this is the way certain circles are going to behave, then they have no business preaching to others about morality.

One Nation!!!!!!

I believe that the subscription fee is going to be coming up over and over again as counties and cities try to balance their books. I can see how someone could overlook a "fee" and forget to pay it. I can also see that not paying that fee will have consequences. But is it right??

Is this your government at work or is it a private company? I believe that in these times, many people feel that government is too large and should be made smaller. Will governments lay off their police, firemen, street workers and turn it over to private companies? Will this be the result? Taxes are paid for a service. Heaven forbid that you would have to use one of those services (fire) but after paying taxes for years and not using it should that be considered in the "fee"?

I keep hearing in my head "What goes around, comes around" whenever I listen or read about this incidence. Will that man now think longer and harder if he sees one of those town officials in need and requiring help? If one was having a heart attack in front of him, would he think twice about using his cell phone minutes to call for help? After all, that town official did not pay his cell phone bill so why should he use his money/minutes to help him out. I think you can see where this might end up. I got mine, to bad for you. This is the mentality that we have to fight against!!

You're missing the point entirely and instead arguing on emotion.

The difference between San Francisco and Rural Tennessee, well they are too numerous to count, but for starters, if this home was in the city, he would be paying taxes and therefore this would not be an issue. But he didn't live in the city. He chose to live in an unicorporated area, that was not subject to the taxes the citizens of South Fulton paid. That was his choice, and people have to be responsible for their choices, just like with mortgages, just like with everything else in the world.

I highly doubt that if a human was in the home that the fire department wouldn't have rescued them.

The scenario your talking about would be more like, a 30 year old man goes to the ER for a cold with no medical insurance. and in that scenarion I say, hell no dont treat him. If he was dying, save him, but the common cold?

It amazes me how quickly you would attempt to take a moral highground where there is none. How quickly your willing to say that there is no compassion. But honestly at what point do you hold someone accountable for their actions?

I have a question about the fire in Tennessee. Where were this guys neighbors? Why didn't they help him try to put the fire out? Why could thye use garden hoses to help try to control this?

I know if one of my neighbors had a fire I would be right there doing my part to help, i Have on several occasions, once on the 4th of July when a bottle rocket landed in a neighbors tree, once when a nieghbor had chiminey fire..... whatever, where was this strong community that is going to run these city councilman out of office?

I am still waiting to hear about where the water comes from used in the unincorporated area outside of South Fullerton. Is well water used? Do the fire trucks bring tanks with them? Can the fire department refuse to take a subscription if it feels the road to the homeowner could damage the fire truck?How much does $75 a year cover, and do people have to pay more than that if they run over the "deductible" $75? A proper analogy to health care is that someone with health insurance who gets sick sees a doctor. Someone who doesn't want to pay because they "never get sick" doesn't go to the doctor, spreading a virus or disease around to other people, whose insurance companies then raise their rates because of how many visits they make in a given year. Can a company refuse to hire you if you don't have health insurance, on the theory that you can reduce company productivity and create too many sick days for everyone?

Fire Fighters Condemn South Fulton's Decision to Let Home Burn

Business Wire
October 5, 2010

International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee:

"The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family's home to burn to the ground was incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South Fulton's pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.

"Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality's highest priorities.

"Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South Fulton's ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn't be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go."

The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 298,000 full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics and is the leading advocate for health and safety of first responders in North America. More information is available at www.iaff.org

Copyright 2010 Business Wire, Inc.

Business Wire

This just so everybody doesn't go thru the world thinking that the majority of us have completely lost our minds Oh BTW Steve-505729 I didn't attribute this to one political party or the other because it is my opinion that you can't legislate morality. But since you bring it up the Mayor and the Commissioners that gave the orders to let this man's house burn down are all good old dues paying Republicans. All their constituents should be so proud of 'em

Exactly so, IR. Exactly so. And so goes the greedy, short-sighted agenda of the "no-nanny-government" Tea Party. Exactly so.

Ah, but people who live in the county also pay taxes...to the county. It was entirely within bounds for the county to contract with South Fulton to provide fire service, budget for that service, and levy taxpayers for the cost. Instead, because we've been told for 30 years that ALL taxes are stealing they decided to turn it into a "user fee."

It really doesn't matter the party of the local officials, though I can find nothing to back up Steve's repeated claims that they are Democrats. The same anti-tax forces push ALL lawmakers to reduce ALL taxes regardless the circumstances. They are destroying society with their Conservative ideology.

As for Fred Phelps and his band of merry morons, well, they started with events that were directly connected to homosexuals. Conservatives didn't have a problem with him then. When the Iraq war came along he saw a great chance to get additional attention from the funerals of soldiers. All at once Conservatives stood up and took notice. Prior to that he represented the kind of hatred they're comfortable with.

Maybe it's just me, but in my mind wrong is always wrong, not just when it wrongs a cause that's important to me.

IR, As Usual you come here and LIE about who the County Mayor is . his Name is Benny McGuire . A Democrat. If you look at who the County Council Members are you will find that they are DEmocrats too.

What a LIAR

So, to punish someone for forgetting to pay $75.00, you let his house burn down to the ground killing all of his pets and burning up every memento, family picture and financial record that may have been in there. And then you wonder why you are called cold and heartless?

Yeah, that makes sense.

South Fulton Mayor David Crocker told the newspaper that if the city allowed people to pay after the fact there would be no incentive to subscribe. As an analogy, he said an insurer won't pay for an auto accident if insurance lapses.

Heck Steve you don’t even know who the mayor is and I’m a liar. Try again there old sport

Steve:

IR, As Usual you come here and LIE about who the County Mayor is . his Name is Benny McGuire . A Democrat. If you look at who the County Council Members are you will find that they are DEmocrats too.

You should check your facts before you accuse someone of lying. According toall three of the articles below, the mayor's name is David Crocker.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/south-fulton-firefighters-let-house-burn-unpaid-obion-county-fine-2692500.html

http://legalblogwatch.typepad.com/legal_blog_watch/2010/10/pay-your-75-fee-or-south-fulton-fire-dept-will-watch-your-home-burn-to-the-ground.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/firefighters-watch-as-hom_n_750272.html

I don't know whether he's a Democrat or a Republican. There are a lot of conservative Democrats that are as bad as conservative Republicans, especially in some rural areas down south where Dixiecrats are still getting elected to local office. But it's not the progressives that are attacking the victim and praising the city for letting his house burn down and his pets die in the fire. It's the conservative pundits.

The Democrat County Mayor Benny Gcguire..

http://www.nwtntoday.com/news.php?viewStory=39258 FACT LIARS

At worst the fire should have been put out and the man should have been given a huge bill like they do at the ER if you don't have insurance. There is no way the house should have been allowed to burn. The needs of american citizen should never be privatized. That includes health care and auto insurance.

kate-1855079

Kate to maybe answer a little of your question most of the time in rural areas the water comes from Tankers (5000 gallons) and pumpers hooked to natural sources such as streams and ponds. I for instance have to maintain about an I acre pond on my property in order to get a reduced insurance rate. This also benefits my nearest neighbors that maybe do not have enough land to devote to this purpose. For instance about a year and a half ago when my neighbor’s horse barn caught fire the local fire companies hooked two pumpers together to draw water from my pond and pump it about 1500 yards or so to the fire. They scout the locations every year and about once a year run a full practice.

BTW Steve don't make a whole lot of difference who the county guy is. The equipment and the controling authority was from the town of South Fulton. The Mayor of South Fulton and the fellow that was giving the orders is named David Crocker and I'll say again( not that it makes a hoot one way or the other) he is a Republican. Now you go on back to where ever your coming from there sport and do you a Google search or whatever you need to do to get your facts straight. As for me I do believe that I wasted about as much time as I intend to this afternoon with your particular brand of ignorance

thanks, IR. Va

You See thats the problem with you IR. thats all you ever do is Blame Republicans for the Policies of the Democrats.. It is the Democrats that Did away with the Fire protecetion that was provided to the county Residence, Your problem is that you will never put the blame where it Belongs when it comes from your own party, You Distort Facts to make it look like its the Republicans fault.. This is why The Majority of the American people will Vote to give the Republicans a Majority in the House and Possibly the Senate. The Majority of the American People are Tired of the Lies of the Democrats.

Steve,

Benny McGuire is Obion County mayor where the home owner lived.

However the Fire Department is located in South Fulton. The Mayor of South Fulton is David Crocker.

http://www.nwtntoday.com/news.php?viewStory=46801

Nice try Steve, you got caught in a lie again so you try and change the rules. You sir are repugnant. There is no reason that I will accept for those firefighters letting that house burn to the ground.

I live in a state where we have to go and get people off ski slopes because they refuse to follow the signs. If I use your logic I am to let the freeze to death.

Any time kate always glad to see you

"Evidence how races can quickly change: Whitman's now behind in CA… If she loses, that could have a disastrous downballot effect for the GOP…"

Yeah, and it could reverse global warming, cause the Islamic terorists to seek peace around the World, and bring an end to all social problems in the World.

Give me a break. Is MSNBC that desperate to shore up Obama?

Steve => Spin, Spin, Spin

Couldn't have said it better myself Dennis...

Some people just don't know when to give up - anyway by continuing on and now personally attacking it only makes Steve come across as even more pathetic than I had originally envisioned!

The sooner these nitwits figure out that having the LAST word doesn't somehow magically make them RIGHT! If nothing else only MORE dazed & confused!

Whats Pathetic is that you liberals/commie/democrats that post here think you are changing anyones minds. you spew your hate here on these boards and think its gonna make a difference. Now us Republicans that come here Tell you what the Real Truth is and your response is to claim its us lying. We are not Trying to change your mind. we just come to counter your lies.. We cant wait till November when the Majority of the American people Show you just how much they Reject the you and This Failed Administration..

Steve,

You will never understand why we are here. And there is no shame in that for you because it is just an old fashioned coded secret.

STTS

10 points, Dennis, that was funny! Thanks.

You see this is why we say you Democrats are so Predictable. We understand exactly why you are here because its the only place you can find 6 or 7 other people that will agree with exactly what you say and then Stroke your ego when you say it. Its really not that Difficult to figure out. but hey we understand while Most Democrats are Running away from the President and his Failed Polices as if they had nothing to do with it.

Again Steve has the last word => You win !!!!

Happy now ??

Steve - Now us Republicans that come here Tell you what the Real Truth is and your response is to claim its us lying.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't there a fine for using the words "republican" and "truth" in the same sentence?

IR, good post and I hope it makes people think. We really have lost our sense of decency, there doesn't seem to be anything that cant stop people from degrading the culture or each other. When is it ever OK to hurt someone by letting their house burn down or when they are asking for privacy.

Just last week a young man attending Rutgers Univ. committed suicide, because his roommate using a webcam from another dorm room videoed his sexual encounter with a man and then posted it on the internet. I cant stop thinking how that poor kid felt when he discovered what had been done to him and how his family must feel to have lost a son. What way was the roommate raised, that allowed him to think it is OK to do such a despicable act of betrayal. Have they no shame or sense on decency.

Ron Indiana # 1.3 post ..... glen b, ??? p eck er head is a wacko, nut job if I was fox I would fire this nut.

What Reverend Phelps needs is to be busted in the mouth.

True enough tbart, unfortunately he lives for that. They support themselves by provoking someone into doing something against them, then suing them. It's always a slam dunk, too. There are several lawyers in the family, they always know just how far they can go, and there are always cops on hand that serve as handy, reliable, and believable witnesses when things go wrong.

So are there ALWAYS cops on hand? Everywhere he goes? He should get no peace anywhere.

I agree, Thanks in part to United Citizens ruling we are now seeing what I predicated months ago, Foreign Money coming into our election process. Now we all know the reasons behind the Republican blocking of the Disclosure Bill and the blocking of the Americans Job Bill. The republicans have been bought by Big Business and Foreign Companies and they are paying them back.

Another reason why I will not vote Republican.

This election is being bought by Big Business and Foreign Companies. What happen to America???

Beverly laughs at Hannity's poll then uses Mother Jones for a source. That's even funnier.

Bev;

The bad thing is that we will not know until after the election. The IRS is already looking at American Crossroads for how they are spending the monies. Karl will just cook the books and tie this up for years.

Now we know why the Republicans were so he!! bent on defeating the Disclosure Bill and the Americans Job Bill.

Our country is being sold to the highest bidder (even if they are not of this country). We are all going to loose on this one. Republicans and Democrats and nobody seems to give a hoot. Apathy - The Nation Killer has just rode into town.

Now several banks Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Citi and a few others have stopped foreclosure in many states. Why?? Because they do not own the mortgages, they do not know who is holding the paper on these properties and are throwing people out illegally. Great, another Big Bank problem. I wonder how much tis one will costs us.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Democrats get out and vote this November. The thought of Boener becoming Speaker of the House actually turns my stomach. Get out and vote Dems.

I expected the Citizens United ruling to have a negative impact on the Democrats as the Republicans represent more monied interests but I am truly surprised at how quickly the impact is being felt---I thought it might take an election cycle or two for it to kick in.

Ca Tom:

I agree, the only way we can stop this insane path we are on is if we get out and vote.

VOTE VOTE VOTE (only one vote per person please).

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Great points; Navy

Karl will just cook the books and tie this up for years.

That's because Karl Rove still think he has executive privileges. BTW; he never showed up for the inspector general's investigations.

Our country is being sold to the highest bidder (even if they are not of this country). We are all going to loose on this one. Republicans and Democrats and nobody seems to give a hoot. Apathy - The Nation Killer has just rode into town.

I amazed that Republicans, namely FOX NOISE which has the Muslim Saudi Prince Waleed Bin Talal at 50% of its shareholding, and conservative democrats scream about President Obama not being in the best interest of America; yet they allow foreign entities to domain America.

Get out and VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!

FIRED UP AND READY TO GO!!!!!

Great comments everyone. Definitely, VOTE -- it does matter.

Thank Goodness hopefully its only a matter of time before Nicki Diaz is deported, the nanny should probably have her legal papers in order before she makes too much of a deal about how she was treated as an employee.

Gloria Allred should be called before the CA lawyers ethics panel for throwing her client under the bus like this

Perhaps Nicki Diaz sacrificed her chance at the american dream to spare California from a bad govenor?

Those of you who have not been victims of racial profiling will have no sympathy for those who may be affected by AZ SB1070 type immigration laws.

Nicki Diaz is doing what is right no matter the consequences. Exposing Meg Whitman as a person who is buying the election, will no doubt scratch the back of her big business buddies, a hypocrit and will make things worse for the working class in CA.

Niki Diaz is an illegal alien who committed FRAUD by giving a stolen SS#. Meg Whitman HIRED HER FROM AN AGENCY who are responsible for vetting her. NIKI is the criminal here. Your class warfare arguement doesn't hold water. What does SB1070 have to do with this?

STAFFING Agencies are supposed to properly screen candidates for potential employers/customers yes I agree. However many candidates pass drug tests or background checks whereas they should not have.

Once a TEMP employee is HIRED FULL TIME by the employer, often they must pass another round of drug tests and/or background checks. A failure to properly address a letter from the Social Security Administration shows Meg wasnt concerned... until she ran for office.

I was once notified that my SS# was used by "someone" and they were investigating. Fortunately my identity as far as I know has not been stolen.

If Meg is elected, more misguided laws like SB1070 will be on the ballots in Cali.

Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute, what is the connection between the Tea Party and the mayor who let the guy's house burn down? I mean, for example, it was a bunch of Democrats in Bell, CA who were recently charged with corruption, but that doesn't mean the Democratic Party itself is any more corrupt than the Republicans. It would be inaccurate to ascribed stealing to the nature of the Democratic philosophy. I dislike the Tea Party, but this sounds more like a case of a hard headed bureaucrat than a Tea Partier, or a Libertarian, to me. (Unless I'm missing something here, which could be.)

Full disclosure, my brother is a rabid Libertarian, and he would never watch a guy's house burn down, just because he hadn't paid a fee. Years of observation have taught me, Libertarians don't always behave the way you'd expect, given their professed views.

Sorry, I mangled this sentence : "It would be inaccurate to ascribe stealing to the nature of the Democratic philosophy."

Amy. Good catch, thanks. Sorry everyone. I did not mean to imply there was a direct connection between the TP or liberatarian parties and this particular situation but I see I did imply that. My intent was to merely point out that the extreme TP/Libs are very anti-government, their views are everyone is on his own, laissez faire; they would eliminate government services, any government assistance--this fire is a taste of what our country might be IF the extreme views of some became mainstream law. That does not mean that everyone in either of those parties has that view.

Jody, well said. Let us all go back to school:

Merriam-Webster lists five descriptions for the word "society":

3 a: an enduring and cooperating social group whose members have developed organized patterns of relationships through interaction with one another b: a community, nation, or broad grouping of people having common traditions, institutions, and collective activities and interests

There are interesting and important words in the above definition: enduring, cooperating, organized patterns, interaction, community, nation, common traditions, institutions and collective.

Now, how is society structured? What is the function of the structure? Who creates the structure?

The structure of the US has come about through the creation of the Constitution and all the amendments. Our government is the structure of our society. This structure has been built for close to three hundred years and is continually being built.

Each amendment is a mini revolution.

As a society, we either grow or regress. The choice is ours to make as a society.

The question we all must answer is: What do we want our society to be?

Jody, Iowa

Libertarians offer a refreshing point of view, and I welcome their participation in the national debate, but if any of them actually get elected to office, I agree, we are all screwed.

Steven, Delaware. Thanks for adding to the discussion, good thoughts. Interesting, I had the dictionary out last night and looked up society and security; I was thinking about social security and the GOP's wanting to eliminate it.

Amy. Ron Paul is an elected House representative and is liberatarian. When he ran for President in 2008, during the debates, he actually made the best arguments and I thought blew away the other GOPers running. The trouble is that liberatarians, like socialists, are purists in their beliefs; they believe that the good in people will outweight the bad--Rand Paul's idea that private business should be allowed to discriminate because the good people will not support that business; trouble is if the restaurant has good food, people will go there; if the person is a racist, they will go there. Pure ideology whether socialist, liberatarian, or communist can never succeed for long--the ideology inherently breaks down just as it did in the USSR; China has moved toward a half and half capitalistic approach. The corrupt and greedy are why Government is necessary; individual ownership of property and business promotes advances and profits because people have a stake in the success or demise of it.

Jody, Iowa

I went to a lecture last spring by Anne C. Heller, a biographer of Ayn Rand, a heroine of the far right, who pointed out that Rand loathed being called the mother of the Libertarian Party, because she was against any kind of collective action, and she was also an atheist, an adulterer, and a supporter of a woman's right to abortion. The Libertarian philosophy can be bracing in a self-help book kind of way, basically, take responsibility for your life and actualize your potential. But you have to turn yourself into a pretzel to apply Libertarianism into a governing philosophy, without quickly dissolving into hypocrisy. PS One Libertarian in the Senate at a time is about all the country can take. Libertarians, in any great number, turn into fascists, pretty darn quick.

I've been saying on this blog for months that we're headed in a direction where public safety is optional, depending on whether you decide to pay "extra" for it or not.

I didn't know we were already there.

Citzens United, the worse decision made by any Supreme Court in over a hundred years. It has unleashed the powerful to have even greater power over We the People. The GOP is a subsidiary of not just FOX but big business. It is no longer a political party but instead a group that launders money for the powerful businesses which are determined to rule--the GOP forgets one thing, they will rule them as well.

Every time I see some compassionate conservative type on here posting about the evils of organized labor the Chamber of Commerce comes to mind, what about the evils of organized business? The Chamber of Commerce has more "thugs" than any labor union, and a lot more money and power all used to lower wages and benefits of all American Workers and push the Republican dream of eliminating the middle class, when you go to the polls in November check to see how much money you have in the bank, if your balance is $250,000 or less best vote for everyone with a "D" beside their name cause the other people on the ballot have no need for you.

Jody;

Thanks or the additional info. This is bad. Just about everything I was afraid this decision would do has come to pass. Elections now are being auctioned off to the highest bidder. Soon we will be voting for elected officials on E-Bay. We the People is no longer, it has been replaced by We the Rich and Powerful.

W.Bush, US Navy--you've added more good thoughts on this subject. It should scare everyone but too many on the right seem oblivious to the danger. President Obama was absolutely correct when he admonished the Supreme Court during the State of the Union address; he was criticized for it but he was absolutely correct!

w Bush;

Thank you for the follow up. We sure are in a mess. Seems to get worst every day. We have to get out and vote. Republicans need not apply, we all know too well what you agenda is for this country and I am not buying it.

The damage that the Supreme Court has done to democracy in this country has got to be the most important story about this election. As I pointed out yesterday the corporate media are studiously ignoring it. But historians won't ignore it -- unless we get to a time when historians are not allowed to express opinions detrimental to the interests of the corporate ruling class.

It's ironic that the campaigns of rightwing politicians who demonize Muslims are indirectly getting their hateful advertising funded by Middle Eastern oil sheiks via the Chamber of Commerce slush fund. I doubt the oil sheiks even care that they're helping out the Islamophobes in America as long as their contributions help buy off US politicians. To the pampered princes of Arabian peninsula, Allah may be great, but the dollar is still Almighty.

It's very scary!!!!

Before you know it, they'll be setting up camps for the poor....which will be for the 98% of the American people.

It just makes me sad and angry at the same time!!!

I'm writing this with a heavy heart for what the Republicans are doing to this fine country of ours!!

Right on Jody. The Supreme Court has stuck a dagger in the heart of the American working class.

Short of a Supreme Court decision that realistically recognizes that corporations do not have the same rights as citizens, only a constitutional amendment can stop the takeover of the government by corporate interests. The first one is not going to happen with the current court; the latter will be difficult but it would be doable. I don't know how, but we need to get the public to recognize the need and demand it.

Anyone remember the rumor that the Clinton's were allowing foreign gov (China) to fund politicians. This is exactly the same thing a RUMOR, being spread to stir up the base, nothing more.

"janet-489369

Anyone remember the rumor that the Clinton's were allowing foreign gov (China) to fund politicians. This is exactly the same thing a RUMOR, being spread to stir up the base, nothing more."

==================================================

It may just be a rumor Janet, and it may not. Since the Supreme Court decided to throw it's weight behind Corporations and cut the throat of America's workers with it's "Citizens United" ruling I see more of a chance it being true as not, at any rate neither of us can dismiss it as just a vicious rumor designed to stir up the base.

When Citizens United came down there was a lot of theorizing that it might not have a lot of impact on campaigns because businesses would be wary of negative backlash. Apparently that wariness lasted about 5 minutes. More likely it was just a Conservative talking point to keep Congress from doing anything about it before the election.

John B.

I agree, it did not take them long. Also as per several media shows the Feds do have a paper trail of the foreign funds from overseas to the US Headquarters of the Chamber of Commerce. The problem lies in that these funds are co-mingled in their general account. The Chamber is not denying that they have done this, they are trying to figure out how to spin it so it appears to be legal. The Karl Rove "American Crossroads" is also being looked at for violation of their charter as well.

Feisty-

Ya know it's always about me me me and no one else.....that's all she worries about!

MOOSE MEAT side effects are very nasty....take Joe Miller for instant saying that he's against having unemployment and then his wife has receive unemployment in the past. See it sota leaves your mind in a great big funk!!!

Feisty; Hi GF

Their MOOSE MEAT is probably tainted. Maybe that accounts for the crazy side effects. I also read when Greta Van Frankenstein was fawning over Sarah (she was almost in Sarah's lap) that Todd had to go door to door to find some MOOSE MEAT.

It was a riduclous interview did you see how Sarah was all dolled up just to cook? Gimme a break!!

They are all a bunch of phonies, TRR. Joe Miler and Sarah get/got government hand outs. Sarah's toddler gets checks from the Indian Center because of her toddler's disability.

Bev-

But of course we'll never hear anything about it. They will keep that hush hush. Just so they can keep on harping about how the Democrats keep funding the programs.....while they keep right on using them.

Hypocrites!!!

Feisty,

It is all that OIL Tainted Moose Meat I am sure, that along with the metals leached from the mining tailings, ya know, the ones that they are dumping into rivers and lakes....Has to have SOME effect, especially as it concentrates the farther up the food chain it goes...

A man decides to take a risk that his house will never catch on fire and decides not to pay a $75 fee. He gambled and lost and you equate this with Nazi Germany? Where's the collapse, people? I know, I know...the man "forgot" to pay the fee. Well guess what? Meg Whitman didn't know her maid was an illegal alien, ok? Wanna make a trade?

Glen Beck is crazy....maybe he had some of that MOOSE MEAT!

Earlier this week Beck was claiming the Government ruined slavery in this country and there was no such thing as slave trade ships. For one thing, the slaves were brought here before there was a U.S. Government and the slaves did not swim here. It is beyond me how any person can listen to that idiot Beck and not question his words let alone his sanity.

So CU Farley, someone forgets to pay a bill and it is fine with you to let the house burn down over $75. The home owner offered to pay them on the spot; when he made the call for help he told them he would pay whatever it cost. Ever forget to pay a bill on time or are you perfect?

It is an interesting question: Would all of you who are so sanguine about that house burning down been fine with a child not being rescued in a fire?

Excellent point NDD - at least the crazy conservatives have NOW gone on record that they believe the price of a HUMAN LIFE is only $75.00!

I'm overwhelmed by their so called compassion!!! *insert snark*

"A man decides to take a risk that his house will never catch on fire and decides not to pay a $75 fee. He gambled and lost"

A man decides to take a risk that he will never get sick, and decides not to pay for health insurance. He gambles and loses, should doctors still treat him? Of course they will, which is why the healthcare reform bill says everyone needs to pay for insurance or pay a fine, and if you can't afford insurance, the government will help you buy it.

How could they come up with so heartless a policy? If we save your house and pets when you haven't paid the fee in advance, you will be surcharged $1000 dollars and a lein put on your property until the fee is paid. How hard would that idea be to arrive at ahead of time?

I wonder, Fiesty, if some of our more dedicated righties will be brave enough to take a stab at answering that question. I have one more for them: How are you all feeling about the Chamber of Commerce using foreign money to try to dictate the outcome of our elections. Is it situational ethics with you, that is, if you get the outcome you want it is fine and dandy? Or are you outraged at Roberts selling out this country to the highest bidder?

I just can't believe that the Tennessee fire policy is even being discussed here. Who are we as a society when we think it's OK to stand by and watch a family home burn to the ground. I guess compassion is no longer a quality an American should pocess.

I pity those of you that support the policy. I prefer to be surrounded with people that have a heart.

NDD-

Looks to me that CU is the only one whose posting so far......that should tells us something!!!!

Ramboet-

Couldn't agree with you more.

Like you said I also pity those that support the policy.

It's sad that are country has come to this.

I was thinking the same thing TRR.

Jody, IOWA

Real soon Beck will be saying slavery never happened at all and he will have Olde English photos depicting Africans on the QE 2 sailing to the New World.

And guess what? I know people personally who will believe that scenario because they think Beck is an educated and fair-minded man and he clearly is not.

Low information voter does not begin to describe the ignorance of some Americans who will decide the fate ouf our country on November 2, 2010.

The President should not have to beg Democrats to get out and vote...they should feel it as an imperative to save our country!

NDD-

I know and just think that the Republicans keep saying over and over about our children and grandchildren with the debt......but I guess it's alright for them to be brought up in a society in which money plays the big role and nothing else.

Money can't buy happiness!

CU Farley,

Ok and to the rest of the gang too. I am very familiary with South Fulton, TN. It is a couple of hours east from where I live (native, born and raised here, our children are 5th generation members of our family church) and work. This is an especially poor area of rural lower East Tennessee. These people have been bred to be republicans for generations - dating back to the Civil War. They are a rather uneducated group of people with few job skills and the jobs offered there normally have no benefits what so ever. Yes, this poor man has the mentality that he needs to vote for those rich guys, however, until he has a catastrophy happen to him or his family, he does not realize how important his vote has been and the role it has played in keeping families like his from having good jobs with good benefits. Also, in rural East Tennessee these folks don't have access to much health care and inbreeding is pretty strong. Having said that because it is important to understand these folks, they are the people the teabaggers court (because they know ignorance is easly fed by ignorance) and recruit and they are the very folks who will vote for people like haslam (rich Pilot oil family) and won't realize the damage done until the very Tenncare they claim to hate - you know, government healthcare, is taken away by republicans. The same goes for fire protection - don't dare raise the property tax to help fund the fire dept, instead let folks pay the fee if they want it, once this happens if someone can't afford the fee they quickly forget the rule by governing republicans and want to know what happened to the tax payer funded fire department. Well, we know what happened to that tax payer funded fire department, the few wealthy families in that county persuaded others to vote against the taxes needed to fund the fire department, therfor working families get to watch their houses burn down while the wealthy mansion gets fire department response and the fire put out every time.

And that my friend is one of the reasons so many working people (me and my family included) are sick and tired of working to make the rich richer!

Union Baby, Tennessee

Wow, thanks for the background information. Sounds like parts of Maine.

Good one Union Baby. Pretty much hits the nail on the head I do believe

Union Baby-

Sounds like the people of West Virginia. What I said yesterday about the voters of West Virginia voting Republican so that way they can keep their guns. I mean no if ands or buts about it they always vote Republican.

That county should have a policy where, if you choose to not pay the fee, and you require assistance from the fire dept, you will then have to pay...say $1,000. But, of course if that was the case, the ACLU or some other group would step in and announce that having a fire put out at your house is a human right guaranteed by the Constitution and should be done for free. By the way, how did you all manage to turn this into a right vs. left issue, complete with allegations of Nazism from some of the more "low-info" people on here?

It doesn't matter if this person was a Republican or not - but as an AMERICAN, don't you think that common courtesy - or just helping a fellow AMERICAN - would have trumped this law?

It seems to me that we are becoming a 'me first' society and if that is the case, how can we go forward?

If this homeowner is a Republican, why aren't the GOPers in the area rallying around him in his time of need? From what I am seeing, the GOP is denigrating their OWN.

For a lousy $75.

And these are the people we want to trust with the keys to Congress?

Yes, that is a characterisation with a broad brush, but this is what we are seeing more and more as we focus on what the GOP will do when in Congress.

Is this REALLY what America wants?

Seriously, CU? First you say 'tough' to the guy for not paying the $75.00, he 'gambled and lost' and then you suddenly say that they should have put it out and charged him $1000? Interesting that you changed your mind after Paul suggested it. Interesting that you just happened to use $1000 after Paul suggested that amount. And the way you presented it as if it was your idea in the first place? You really are a despicable human being, CU, and you come on here and prove it every day.

Boy, no kidding TRR. Those who think that the right wing are not involved in a war against women and gays (and anyone else they consider "different") are not paying attention.

Republicans have been anti-woman for decades, look at their voting records. They just did not express it so voters would know. We should be grateful for the Tea Party--it seems to have brought truth from their lips! From social security, taxes for the rich, medicare, to women--the truth has set them free and hopefully, the truth will inspire democrats even more to head to the polls Nov 2.

TRR: If DeMint is sayin they shouldn't be allowed to teach in our school systems, then get ready. He's one step away from saying gays and single mothers shouldn't be allowed to receive an education. btw, what about single fathers?

Being one of DeMint's handlers would be most unpleasant, prescriptions would be required.

TRR;

What can we expect from a guy that also wants to shut down the government. The republicans are trying to create select classes of people with different rights. The gays will a class, religious groups will be segreated out and the Rich and Poweful will dictate what we can or cannot do, say or think.

This is where we are heading.

It wasn't that long ago that women teachers had to quit when they got married.

When tp'ers talk about taking our country back thay mean back in time.

TRR Barboursville, WV

What in the he!! is wrong with DeMint! Saying that all gays and single mothers or women shouldn't be allow to teach in our school systems.

Then saying that all mothers shouldn't be allow to work. They need to stay at home.

I know what it is. His last name says it all; he's demented.

CU Farley

Rasmussen ass of Oct 4th 2010

Brown 49%

Meg Whitman 44%

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2010/election_2010_governor_elections/california/election_2010_california_governor

from SurveyUSA
Brown 47%
Meg Whitman 43%

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollPrint.aspx?g=610b53d5-5fd1-4039-b4c7-4ae7aad0efdd&d=0

I find it immensely hilarious the way slant head Hannity can sit there and deliberately lie.

Demint, Hannity, and FOX NOISE have put a symbolic ring through the noses of their lemmings.

.

Everyone-

It really frightens me to know end because we are heading that way.

Republicans have always been against women and it makes me wonder if they are elected into office, will we go back to the fifties and start all over again or just stay in the fifties for life.

Yes and the TB's have opened up the Republicans and how they really feel about the American People and still the people will put them back in office.

Conservative Republicans are on a path to repeal the entire 20th Century.

You are so right--hypocrisy at its finest! The irony of this whole thing would be for Whitman to have spent $120 million of her own money only to lose because she hired an illegal immigrant and kept her on staff for nearly a decade. Sweet justice. Money may talk but sometimes the words spoken do more harm.

I agree, doesn't look like being Governor of CA. would be much fun, and Whitman spent over $100 million of her own money trying to get the job, I must be missing something here.

How much money must Meg Whitman have if she can blithely spend over $120 million of it on this election? Pietro was right in asking the other day--why does she want this job so much?

Even if Meg Whitman was not in politics when she employed the housekeeper, she was a public figure as an executive of a publicly-held company--did she not consider that her Mexican-born employee could have been an illegal and absolutely confirm that she wasn't--especially after having correspondence on it? All she needed to do was look at a green card. Was she trying to save money by paying lesser wages to an illegal? If so, it is a perfect example of "penny wise, pound foolish."

NDD;

Right on. We are watching our country being sold down the river so to speak. I hope Whitman looses big time. She is a hypocrite like many of her kind and needs to be exposed for that.

The problem is that so many people are hurting, mad and frustrated that they are not making rational choices and this is going to make the problem worst. You do not shoot yourself in the foot because you have a headache. You correct the headache and that is what this country has to wake up and do.

There are tough choices to be made and we better start making them soon before there is nothing left to salvage.

It is exactly that Navy. People are mad, justifiably so, and wanting to vent that on someone. The problem is if they don't recognize that it was the Republicans that got us into this situation to begin with.

I agree I think the whole republican party overplayed their hand. They came in with a surplus from Clinton, and the nation was working a making money, working overtime. GW arrives, we are attacked on his watch not Clinton's, not Obama's. Starts a war with the wrong country, spends trillions on two war fronts, cuts taxes, spends on huge entitlements, banks begin to fail, millions of jobs lost, well not exactly lost but EXPORTED, stock market crashes. The country votes on their next president, and they immediately announce they want him to fail. What? GW did not fail enough, you want more, why? They talk trash about the POTUS, they tell lies or they let surrogates tell lies but make no attempt to reign in the absurd. They encouraged it, it suited the Waterloo strategy. They did everything they could to derail any and all legislation, appointments, and in general did anything thay could do to be a pain in the ass to the President and the democratic congress, our President, our congress, our duly elected government of the USA. Now they claim they are patriotic, they claim they are worried about the deficit, but want to cut revenue. They claim government is overreaching, but want to legislate their brand of morality. Now they are for health care, after they were against it, we are going to repeal it but then replace it. They could have done their jobs as legislators the first time instead of pouting, and saying, no, no, no mine, mine like a child in the "terrible two year old stage". They say government is broken, but support (I'm sorry but I am going to be impolite, but honest) uneducated goofballs for the senate, and VP. I could go on and on. The point is they could have tried to govern, then they would be in a better position to take advantage of the political climate. They could have been reasonable. But they kept this up for too long and they let the tea party become the face of the republican party, and now when most people are staring to pay closer attention many are scared by what they see. Democrats and independents are getting motivated and it is not breaking for republicans because they cannot point to a single thing they have done in two years except complain. The republican senate caucus screwed the aAmerican people to the tune of $176,000 dollars per man per year. Last thing I see where Sharon Angle told one of the candidates opposing her that basically Jim DeMint, and Mitch McConnel were her "bitches" (that is my word not hers, but that was her meaning). HA HA HA they deserve that (if you lay down with dogs you will get up with fleas) boys.

The Republicans and - most especially the Tea Party - will go down in history not as the most patriotic ever, but rather the most un-American, pathetic, detached splinter group our country has ever known. Matters not whether they win this November or not. Truth will prevail, as it tends to do.

Perhaps I have missed it, but I have yet to see anyone point out that under Whitman's "leadership" at eBay, a huge number of jobs were off-shored. I'm at a loss to explain how that kind of management is going to help California's unemployment problem.

Further, she gets this weird Republican pass because she is a business person and is thus well-qualified in the financial world - maybe like the Wall Street bankers. Unfortunately, there are two very strong arguments against her business credentials.

First, she repeatedly hammered the smaller vendors on eBay with ever-increasing costs and fees at the expense of bigger vendors. If being beaten down is the sort of thing a small business owner likes, well, Whitman's your best bet.

Second, government cannot in any way, shape, or form be run like a business. What does Whitman plan to do: Sell stock in the Department of Transportation? Sell the freeways? Off-shore government employees?

Again, perhaps I missed clarification on this point, but the smaller government mantra is meaningless as is its counterpart mantra "efficient government". Until civil service is overhauled, inefficiency and expanding government will be hallmarks of government.

Lastly, for those who don't live in California, any Governor there is going to be hamstrung by two intractable problems. The first is the super-majority requirement for raising taxes courtesy of Proposition 13, which ironically was voter-approved during Brown's first go-round as Governor. Secondly, Californians have this reality disconnect when it comes to voting for unfunded mandates. They love 'em, they just hate paying for 'em.

I've said it over and over and over again. If you want to see where the right wing extremists (that's today's Teabaggers and Talibangelicals) are going to take this country, watch California.

NDD -

I can't understand why anyone would want to (attempt to) govern this state either. However, aside from Prop 13, Our state's financial woes have much in common with other states. It's just on a larger scale.

We have trouble cutting any programs because our politicians are more worried about their job security than doing a good job. We have a budget process that doesn't reward agencies for saving money, only spending it. We have a pension problem like other states, though both Brown and Whitman have decent ideas on addressing that one. Many of the taxes we do levy have loopholes (specifically, property taxes on businesses). Like many of the governments in this country, we have problems with spending and revenue collection alike. I think our prospective governors' biggest problem will be dealing with the legislature. Identifying the problems is relatively. Coming to a consensus (and navigating the laws tying the legislature's hands) isn't.

*EDIT* David Walker - you forgot to question Whitman's business savvy as well! She's heralded as a great business leader, but eBay was a product of the dot com boom. After the bubble burst, she was rather ineffective. How much of eBay's success can really be attributed to her business expertise?

You are right about the initiative process. We have this strange arrangement where anyone with enough money can create a proposition, get it on the ballot and then sell it with misleading commercials. If it passes (and too many do) it creates an entitlement that must be funded, but with no provisions for doing so. A huge chunk of the state budget is dictated by propositions. The legislature needs a two thirds majority (almost impossible to get) to approve the budget or raise taxes. That is a recipe for paralysys and zero accountability. After all, how can you blame the governor or legislature for something "the voters approved"? We need to put some serious limits on propositions, or just do what I do... vote NO on all of them.

Sorry Anon, but I simply cannot agree with you. I am a native Californian, from San Diego. I get back to CA as often as I can and we will eventually return there permanently. CA's problems are directly related to the ability of EVERY special interest group being able to place things on the ballot. It sets up an impossible situation when you have an economic downturn. You have only to look at the negative affect that Prop. 13 had on the state, (David Walker did a yeoman's job spelling that out in his post) to see why the state is in the condition that it is in. I am a dedicated Liberal, but I don't see how Californians in any honesty can hold their leadership responsible when they take the reins of govt. out of their hands. SOMEONE needs to make some tough decisions there, and it is clear that the voters will not allow that to happen. David also has it exactly right when he warns about the dangers of the "teabaggers" and doing this nationally. It would be a death knell for the country.

I agree on the abilities of special interests to place items on the ballot. Of course, that speaks to the ignorance of the populace as well, taking advertisements at face value and doing zero research, not even reading the voters guide we all get.

I am a bit confused though. What can you simply not agree with me on? Is it my placing some blame on the legislature? My point was that our problems as a state, like many of our problems as a nation, are systemic. You're right, our prop system is one of those problems.

So according all of you, we should never believe a word anyone tells us? Ms. Whitman called an employment agency asking for a maid that is legally in the U.S. to work for her. The employment agency sent out someone they believed was in the Nki Diaz is the liar here. She provided a fake social security card and other fake documentation to the employment agency. Granted when the Whitman's received the letter from SSN they never should have trusted her to check into it. That was their mistake, trusting that employee to tell the truth. Why would you suspect that an employment agency would send you an illegal when you specifically stated you wanted someone who was legal. I would like to know what Ms. Whitman did to this employee when she says she was treated badly. First of all she was paid $23.00 dollars an hour, thats being treated pretty good. As long as she was provided a safe enviroment to work, given the breaks as required by law, she has no complaint. Employers aren't required to be nice to their employees. All they are required to do is follow all applicable state labor laws. The sooner this liar (supplier of fake documentation makes her a liar) is deported the better.

Anon: What I disagree with you on is that the process of Props out there is the first problem that needs to be fixed. When that is fixed, I think it will be easier to solve the rest of the problems. I think it is the MAJOR problem, all others being a subheading. In fairness to the voters, while I agree with you that they have an obligation to educate themselves, those ballots are decidedly long and ambiguous.

janet: why are you so determined to exonerate Whitman when the evidence is that she did know she had hired an illegal? What responsibility does Whitman have, or is it that she is a Republican, and therefore can never be found to be wanting in an area as important as this?

NDD - Fair enough. Our state clearly has issues, and I don't really have a preference as to what order they should be solved in. So, Prop system first! Quick, form a special interest group to get it on the ballot! =D

Janet - I don't much care that Whitman hired an illegal immigrant, knowingly or otherwise (though you have to admit it looks suspicious, firing her just before getting serious about campaigning). I do care that business expertise doesn't necessarily translate to successfully governing, I do care that she was downright apathetic towards politics until this particular cycle, and I do care that business tycoons think they can purchase public offices. I also don't like her proposed economic policies.

Anon: Sorry I had to leave so did not see your response, but it made me smile. Thanks for the discussion.

janet: the problem you are having is in assuming that Whitman is telling the truth about what happened. That means that the other side is totally lying. If you look at the situation, the only one that has anything to gain by lying is Whitman. The worker puts herself at risk for deportation by telling the story. Be interesting to see how it plays out.

Hope you were out for a ride NDD it's a beautiful day here!

Wonder where Janet went? lol

I was thinking about Niki putting herself at risk for deportation... hell she probably sacrificed herself to save CA from the grasp on Meg!

I wouldn't mind leaving the country either if that wicked woman became the next Governor!

We ALL know money can't buy LOVE... NOW let's make sure MONEY can't buy a Governorship!

I was, Feisty: It is the kind of day here where it is brisk enough to cause a certain well-behaved mare to dance, simply out of happiness. Gorgeous day, hope it is where you are, and happy 17th birthday Summer Surprise! I wonder if Niki will be deported or face legal ramifications for what she did. You have to think that she took the risk for a reason, and the reason just might be that she wants people to know what Whitman is really like.

I heard on the radio this morning, Pat, that the Patriots will have 2 picks in each of the first four rounds of this years' draft from this & prior trades. Yikes.

We'll just see how many people want to live in California after prop 19 passes.

Earle St Petersburg FL

If a candidate uses his or her own money is their business, but what happens is there is a disconnect between voters and the candidate, and as we see with this story about the maid. i don't think its a issue. But when you shelter your self in your personal financed campaign, its makes voters think your trying to buy the office at any cost. yes unions give Dems money, but as we see in Arkansas the unions are giving money to the republicans going against Blanch Lincoln.

Earle St Petersburg FL

I find it unbelieveable that Californians are worried about a lying ILLEGAL ALIEN who used a FAKE Social Security Number when they have One of the Worst economies in the United States.

Actually it's more about a lying Meg Whitman saying she didn't know and her hypocritical stance on illegal immigration. If Meg's husband knew, then Meg knew.

If that's what you guys are worried about your all FOOLS and deserve the Higher Taxes and Unemployment that you'll get with Brown. So what if Whitman used her own money, the Dems use Union Dues for their Campaigns (that would Piss me Off if I were Union) MoveOn.org, etc.. So Good Luck to you California, nobody wants to live there anymore and Democrats have served California well I guess (LOL).

(LOL)? Duh, I am RMAOFWL. You know nothing about the unions; obviously. The people who support Brown want jobs. Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina ran their companies in the ground. The only jobs those two frauds will create will be the 2 jobs they'll get on FOX; like most other washed up right wingers. Does Sarah Palin ring a bell? She too is off script,

In the mean the higher taxes and unemployment will be a hand up not a hand out.

I lived in California. Arnold is a republican; there have been many republican Governors including Ronald Reagan. The problem is not which party is in power, it is that their system of citizen referendums that removes most power from the legislators they elect to serve in their State--why have a state legislature if they cannot legislate. What California needs to do is have a state Constitutional Convention to revamp and improve their current methods of governing. Currently, the state can almost nothing without a vote by the people.

Very insightful and innovative idea, Jody. I agree.

Jeff, Ever thought that maybe she's trying to help California at any cost? Maybe she's putting aside her desire to keep her money to Help the People of this once great State? It would be much easier to abandon the Election and keep her skills and money to herself. I know that's a lot of maybe's but nobody knows her personal side to this. Thought I'd throw it out there since I don't see much benefit to being Governor of California, too many crisis of Epic proportions/headaches for any sane person to want to deal with. The Democrats have Killed California and will be looking for Bailout money just to keep the state running. Blanch Lincoln is in a Republican leaning low Union member State and didn't support the Union Agenda, so they spent 10 million against her.

Earle St Petersburg FL

Jeff, Ever thought that maybe she's trying to help California at any cost? Maybe she's putting aside her desire to keep her money to Help the People of this once great State? It would be much easier to abandon the Election and keep her skills and money to herself.

Any time a person run for public office its about POWER!!!!!

she had power when she ran ebay, now she wants more.

The Democrats have Killed California and will be looking for Bailout money just to keep the state running.

Californa is been in trouble since reagan, if dems killed calf, the republicans helped as well. if she runs californa like she ran Ebay, man look out. there will not be one place to get any social services, taxs are going up, and state jobs will be sent over seas.

how i don't know, but between her and carla floria this is all they know, HP and ebay sent thousands of jobs over seas when they were incharge. those were her job skills.

Jeff,

Remind me again what excellant credentials Mr Brown has......... Thats what I thought... Truthfully I give a Rats a** about California since they decided to be run by Lib's, support sanctuary cities etc. But I feel it would be good for the "People" of California to vote for "Change"(as in 2008), maybe turn thing's around and continue being able to contribute to our society.

Dear Earle,

First of all, it's o.k. if the flow of people into CA slows down, as the place is a bit crowded. Our economy is not at it's best these days, but it will recover. In fact, you had better hope it will, since it will lead the entire country back. In case you are not aware of it, our state is the 6th largest economy in the world, only exceeded by a handful of countries like China and Japan. The U.S. economy will not come back until CA does.

Allow me also to make a distinction between union contributions and those of corporations. A union is a group of working people who join together to negotiate with employers and to petition government for laws that will help the working class. The members elect their leadership and can certainly vote them out if they don't approve of their political contributions. That right to join and petition government is constitutionally guaranteed. On the other hand, none of the corporations whose stock I own has ever asked for my approval of the political contributions they choose to make. That is a management prerogative and, under the new Supreme Court rules, one thay can make in secret. Name me a single union that has $50+ billion in the bank like Microsoft, or $26B like Cisco and I may start to worry...

Earle:

I hope you are better informed about your state than you are about California. First, about the unions. Most California unions have what is typically referred to as a union shop, an employee who is paying union dues may refuse to allow his dues to be used for political purposes.

Secondly, your snarky, little "That's what I thought," betrays a rather typical right-wing mindset. Why would you be interested learning something? As a matter of fact, Gov. Brown was the last Governor who was able to move California through the Prop. 13 crisis. Granted, he had the very able help of Speaker Willie Brown - a brilliant tactician and legislator. No Governor since has approximated Brown's success.

Clearly you are unaware of the reforms that California adopted under the leadership of Hiram Johnson, a progressive who later went on to become a Governor of California. Those reforms have today been abused by Big Money and that is precisely what has put California in dire financial straits. It has nothing to do with liberal politics and everything to do with pigs who are buying government.

To respond to an earlier question you raised about the possibility that Whitman was trying to help California at any cost.........Well, Earle she could have voted for free, but she couldn't even be bothered to do that.

It's tempting to tell you that you really shouldn't be posting about a situation where you clearly have virtually no information. But, that's what the right wing is about these days, isn't it?

I never claimed to know all, and maybe in Cali you can have a say where your dues go. But the little snipet "typical rightwing blah blah blah" well I've just got to say the excuses you made don't fix the problems the state has now.

I give up on this website is like a dialup connection, typed much more response but was lost, way to keep the server up MSNBC...

Rupert Murdoch had to be an American citizen to own Fox News, so his citizenship was expedited. He himself feels our laws on immigration need to be reformed. When asked if his own personal views could be found anywhere on Fox, he said "check out the Wall Street Journal."

Can't argue with any of those points Nashville_fan, people should be scared as hell, and no reasonable person should even consider putting the Republicans back in power, I honestly thought after the Republicans ruined everyone over the course of their last rein people would wise up, and they seemed to for a month or two, apparently the American People thought that the problems that the Republicans created over the last 20 years should all be resolved instantaneously, then you seen the shift begin in the corporate owned media toward the Republican agenda which has now became so over the top and ridiculous it should be criminal, facts have given way to meaningless and often times completely false talking points designed to brainwash America into returning the corporate owned Republicans to power, people are beginning to see how utterly ridiculous and phony our "free press" is and realizing just exactly who the party of "bad guys" are. All we can do is vote, and that's exactly what I intend to do, I have to wonder if we didn't already pass the point of no return on correcting our government and I am quite sure if the Republicans are put back in power come November we are done.

Well said, Nashville. The media spends a lot of time discussing "red meat" nonsense but fails to disclose stories like NewsCorp, FOX, the Chamber of Commerce, that the 2-3% small businesses the GOP defends on tax cuts are huge like Bechtel. Today, the chatter is speculation on whether Hillary will replace Biden as VP in 2012. Meanwhile, the Chamber of Commerce allegedly filters foreign money into American political campaigns; Rupert Murdoch donates a couple million to the GOP and the Chamber to, simply put, buy votes to support his NewsCorp expanding further and owning more journalistic outlets and TV.

What a great point Jody . . . foreign entities all around the world can pull the puppet strings of the American electorate . . . it has already started:

Is Foreign Money Fueling Attack Ads in the U.S.?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Is-Foreign-Money-Fueling-Attack-Ads-in-the-US-5293

It is the classic bait and switch, get those in the middle to blame those below them for their problems, all the while ignoring those who are actually calling the shots. Corporate criminals are celebrated and petty thieves are shown no mercy.

Our country is being robbed blind as folks enrich themselves at our expense.

And the only way most folks will find out about it is if the corporate -owned media tells them about it. . . I won't hold my breath.

Nash:

I mean, if somebody wrote this stuff in a fiction book, folks would be upset. But let it happen in reality, and the media simply ignores it, whips us up into a frenzy over a non-mosque not at ground zero or whether or not the President goes to church enough.

As a matter of fact, there've been quite a few science fiction novels about futuristic dystopias in which the entire world is ruled by multinational corporations. Sometimes I wonder if like so much from the Sci Fi genre in the past, this is fiction that's going to one day become fact.

Best laugh of the day; too bad it is so true.

Best analogy ever Rick! Thanks for the chuckle!

Take no responsibility for your party's gaffes, mitch. Blame it on the libs, the dems, moonbeam, panthers, union thugs. Are you so blind to the fact that you and your party make no meaningful arguments ever? You simply sling mud and call people names. Your party is not fit to govern.

Oh brother, blame it all on the other side and ignore the facts that say "you're wrong" and be sure to blame all three of those new black panthers who really pose a threat to America.

Rick and Jody;

Right on, this is right out of Karl Rove's game plan. The party of hypocrisy capaigns on popular issues then blocks the bills that address those issues. They take no responsibility for any of their actions and when questioned on them they blame somebody else. Just like the crooks they are, they always blame the victims as the culprit and then play the role of the victim. You have to remember these are the guys that wrote the book on spin and hypocrisy.

They are responsible for two unfunded wars, two unfunded tax cuts and a unfunded prescription bill in addition to reducing regulations that lead to biggest recession since the great depression and dozens of employees being killed in the name of Greed. We Americans that pay taxes are still paying for these today and is part of the deficit that we are currently burdened with and our children will be burdened with. . Have you heard any republican take responsibility for this? No, you never will.

better put al franken in charge of the ballots just to be sure.

In my state and county: 1) voters seal and sign their ballot in one envelope, place that envelope in a second one which must also be sealed--if one or the other envelope is not sealed, the ballot is not considered valid. The ballots are kept locked up until election night. 2) and 3) absentee ballots are opened by several people to provide witnesses and ballots placed into the vote counting machine, all counters and witnesses would have to conspire to defeat the system. In Iowa absentee votes must be counted regardless of how close a race is. 4) when an absentee ballot is issued, the name and precinct of the voter is shown on the polling site's list as already voting. If a person changes there mind, they must return the absentee ballot in order to vote at their polling site election day.

Sorry, I can't answer the multi-state homes issue and voting in every state but when I moved from California back to Iowa, and registered, I had to provide the location of my previous voter registration. I think that Iowa then notified California of my new residence and voting place.

Offer something meaningful, mitch... just once. Say something productive. Do your party proud. Offer a solution or solutions to a problem, and give us meaningful details, not babbling rhetoric. If you can't do that... then you and those who represent you in state and federal government are not fit to govern, plain and simple.

Now THAT would be change I could believe in.

I don't very seriously if the conservatives of yesteryear would allow any one's house to burn to the ground.

I'm sure they would not have. But we're living in the present, not the past, and contemporary conservatives would.

That doesn't include everyone who calls themselves conservative. It's been demonstrated in past surveys that a lot of people call themselves conservative because it sounds good (frugality, morality, patriotism, etc.). But when asked about specific issues, they tend to come down on the side of liberals.

It would be interesting to see the results of a poll asking self-identified conservatives whether they approve of letting houses burn down because the owner didn't pay the fire department fee. My guess is the majority of self-identified conservatives would not approve. But it appears that the overwhelming majority of the punditocracy does approve.

What?

Earle St Petersburg FL

I know nothing about Unions - I do know that the States they are located in Democrats Rule, the States are bankrupt and the Unions take Dues to fund Democrat elections. So to be Proud of that is Shameful. Unions are less than 10% of the working Population but got Obambie to Bail them all out with TAXPAYERS Money, burn shareholders in the process and say to the average working man you aren't worthy of my help (oh yeah, I give you Unfunded unemployment Extensions for you). Your Liberal Brain Washed Dribble bores me and the FOX talking point - didn't Obama tell you you can't use that card anymore? Smart people know better, obviously you arent one of them!

Obambie????? Did anyone call George Bush through out his whole 8 year any racial slur? Other bad words were spoken; but never any as a racially tinged as yours.

The next thing, unions don't just use dues to buy campaigns. Corporate and labor PACs raise voluntary contributions from a restricted class of individuals. In the case of unions, this consists of union members and their families. For corporations, the restricted class consists of managerial employees and stockholders and their families. These funds may be used to support federal candidates and political committees, either through independent expenditures or through contributions to candidates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_in_the_United_States

Funny, ain't if funny you'd rather unions get a bad name instead of the top 2% of americans, that'd be the Koch brothers and Karl Rove's billionaire friends, and other unknown foreign entities who are sucking every red penny out of the middle class and working poor.

A union represents employees' interests with “collective bargaining”.

Such as

1. wages
2. working hours
3. working conditions
4. seniority
5. disciplinary procedures
6. help members receive paid leave than nonunionized workers.
7. help members generous health benefits than nonunionized workers.
8. help members receive better pension plans than nonunionized workers.
9. help members with more vacation time than nonunionized workers
10. help members receive safety and health, overtime, and family/medical leave and in enforcing those rights on the job.

Remember, the union's best ally is bad management; but and othe smear merchants constantly present a tsunami of falsehoods.

Don't forget! They also encourage and make it possible for slackers and losers to get paid the same as everyone else while doing virtually NO work. That is, if they even bother to show up for work and are not on a 6 week vacation, pretending to be "stressed". And it's impossible to fire such worthless riff-raff because of the union. Thanks socialists!

CU Farley

You really have no idea what you are talking about. If you think union employers pay the wages and benefits they do and people do nothing and remain employed you have the mind of a child. You must have formed your opinon from an episode of the Sopranos. 6 weeks of vacation can not be fired? You sound like an idoit when you say things that ridiculus.

Beverly in Chicago - OMG, what planet are you on??? Racism-Obambie=racism??? get a grip GIRL you need major help. Obambie is my chosen name for Obama due to him being the Darling he is to MSNBC, CNN, ABC, PBS etc. etc., he can do no wrong. As Brain washed as you are they could tell you he walks on water and amazingly you'd believe it! Don't ever accuse someone of RACISM unless you know what your talking about, which you obviously don't. Bush? I could care less that he was called every name in the book - he was a RINO that did some good but lots of Bad. Good Luck using Bush anymore, he's irrelevant. I don't have all day to dispute all your little talking points today so Thanks for the Heads up as to whats wrong with the Democrat Party!
I must of touched/reached Obama's Nerve Center, because lots of the MINORITY Dems are running to his aid today!!

"Have any of you children ever wondered how the government acquires the money it spends? It takes money by force of law from some and gives benefits to others...who would, if empowered seek the same material wealth and "well being" that the wealthy enjoy."

================================================

Dude, that money that the government takes from all is mostly used to protect the wealth of the few at the expense of the many, I mean let's be honest here.

Your typical compassionate conservative accusation that the wealthy "work" to achieve said wealth may have been true in past times but nowadays wealth is acquired more through the use of trickery, deception, bribery, and legislative corruption, and although some effort is required to achieve this most would not define it as "work".

People used to be able to get up, put in a days work and get paid wages that allowed them to acquire some of those evil materialist items you mentioned and still afford to pay the bills at the end of the month, they enjoyed employer supplied health insurance at a reasonable cost and could look forward to a dignified retirement in their latter years.

Today more and more people get up, put in a days work and get paid wages that won't get the bills paid at the end of the month, at least now they are not tainted by those evil materialist devices, because they can't afford them, thank God, right? Health insurance is gone, forget about retirement also, extravagant things such as these are reserved for the wealthy mentioned earlier. Fact of the matter is more and more people get up and go to work nowdays not to enrich themselves but simply to enrich the already wealthy with no hope of ever "getting ahead". Now I will admit some (the wealthy) see nothing amiss here in fact they have "worked" very hard to achieve just such an outcome and spent a lot of their money striving toward this goal, on the other hand others would consider it an unjust damn shame, I believe I already know your position on the matter.

Since you read books and all, what would history tell us about societies that allow all the wealth to be taken from the poor and given to the rich?

Think it can't happen here?

Yeah. She's a deceitful piglet but the lying, cheating illegal alien brought out by the Dem's dirty tricks machine is a heroine? Good job, socialists. Liberal crap brought the Late Great Golden State to the condition it's in today and you want to elect one of the architects of it's destruction. Sometimes I wish the common-sense people left in CA would move away, the "BIG ONE" would come, and that cesspool of illegals and libs would break off the continent and sink. Frisco and L.A. ceased being part of the USA years ago so who really would care?

the lying, cheating illegal alien All made possible by Whitman hiring her. By the way do you know who gave 11 million illegals amnesty?