Stuck In the Middle With You;

There has been a lot of chatter of late in regard to ‘Class War Fare’, and there is no doubt as we grow closer to November the rhetoric is destined to intensify to louder and more vitriolic levels.

The plain truth of the matter is the middle class HAS been under attack ever since ‘St. Reagan’ was elected in 1980.

Handing the keys back to the right wingers will only do ONE thing and that is to continue the decimation of the middle class as we know it.

The Republicans WON’T pay…

The Poor CAN’T pay…

So when their objective of wiping out the middle class is achieved then WHAT?

We’ve just lived through the right wings social experiment of 2% RULING the remaining 98% and have witnessed first hand how well THAT worked out!

I would like to send a great big SHOUT OUT to the voters of Delaware for giving us tea bagger Christine McDonnell as your candidate!

Good Morning Feisty: Glad to see you telling it like it is.

Ron & Feisty;

How true, how true. I think these years of politics are going to re-write the history books. I just can not imagine how some of these Tea Party people are going to do anything in the Senate or House that will move America forward. I suspect they are going to contribute to make this congress even more impotent than it is. The Tea Party will claim a win, the middle class will get smaller and we will all be looking for scraps.

I was exchanging e-mails with a young man (in Sewden) that used to be my boss many years ago and he is laughing his butt off. Likes to remind me of I told you so.

Too bad, this country has such great potential and to be held hostage by such a small minority that has an agenda to destroy the middle class is just mind blowing.

Over time this will blow up in their faces if history is our guide. Rule of the many by just a select few will not be viable over the long run and still be a democracy.

Ron, Feisty -- well done. Great thoughts to ponder.

Great observations Ron, well done.

Looking at what the extreme right have done to the moderate Republicans, doesn't it make one wonder what will they do to try to win against the Democrats?. I'm of the opinion, if they wont debate, then the dirty tricks from a to z will be front and center, all the more reason for the media to play a vital role in being vigilant and dare I say, fair and balanced

Hi Fiesty, Good Morning all,

What is amazing to me is the lack of demand for a debate between the candidates, are the voters that disinterested or are the teabaggers that sure of victory?

Here again, is a chance for the MSM to do their job, let's see if any of them will rise to the occasion.

Did the TEA Party win in Delaware? If so, it may turn out to be an empty victory. I must confess to having doubts about this so-called 'win'. Call me a cynic, but, in Michigan, there were so-called TEA Party candidates whose Democratic credentials were rivaled only by Joe Biden's. In that state, there was some 'success'-turns out, a party must be at least two years old to appear on a ballot. That attempt to swipe an election was headed off at the pass-but in Delaware? Well, you tell me: who had even heard of this woman a month ago?

Anyway, a sure win has been turned into an all-but-sure defeat. Great going, whoever pushed this woman forward.

To me the common thread you point out Ron is intolerance---people who can't see any point of view other than their own. No need for Islam--it is wrong. No need to debate anyone--they are wrong.

I keep telling myself these people love our country as much as I do but I wonder how the differences between us got to be so large that it is hard to see a solution.

Ron Indiana

Last night the Tea Party won big. Armed only with slogans, I doubt if they can answer a simple question, “If you were to win, what is your plan to solve the nation’s domestic problems?”

There is no answer for tea baggers; they are mostly unfit to answer questions. Isn't that the real reason they hide from the media?

Thanks Ron,

Your post has given Tea baggers a real challenge. They should welcome it and thank you for the opportunity.

Steeler fan: You read my mind. It is all about intolerance and lacking respect for diversity.

Anyway, a sure win has been turned into an all-but-sure defeat. Great going, whoever pushed this woman forward.

I believe that would be "Mama Grizzly".

US Navy: I just can not imagine how some of these Tea Party people are going to do anything in the Senate or House that will move America forward.

Joe in Albany: Today’s WSJ has an article exploring the fact that in 2008 almost half (44.4%) of households in the country received some form of govt benefits, up from 29.6% in 1983.

Please explain how putting more and more people on the public dole "moves America forward". Please explain how spending trillions of dollars in deficit spending each year "moves America forward". Please explain how taxing individuals and businesses for massive new entitlements makes American more competitive in the world and "moves America forward". Please explain how centralized control of health care and the banks by Washington bureaucrats "moves America forward".

I love it. Thank you, thank you Delaware. The fools are eating their own. We (Dems) couldn't ask for more. Non identifiable people have a hard time getting elected. Fact of life and when candidates won't debate they become suspect. The Repugs are letting their chances slip through their fingers. I love it.

It's time for a third party and term limits.

Although I identify myself as an independent I suppose I would fall under the definition of a Rockefeller Republican. Small local government, and liberal on social issues. To me DADT, gay marriage and the mosque are really small potatoes and I would agree to them all and my life would go on unaffected. My beef with the Democrats is their attempt to solve every problem using the power of the Federal government and all they produce are programs that have winners or losers. I am pro-market not pro-business. Government should not be in the business of picking winners so I can agree with many here that business subsidies should be eliminated (ethanol is my particular beef).

After last night it is obvious that a polarization of politics is happening. It's roots were in the gerrymandering of districts that made "safe" members who could become more and more extreme. (Yes I put Pelosi and Boehner in this category). There are now Senate races where I find both candidates repugnant, Nevada being the obvious example. Even the media has fallen for this as I find O'Reilly and Olbermann are just the same guy spouting their own extreme views. I honestly think they are interchangeable in some weird 1984 way. Hannity and Schultz, what is the difference? I turn them both off.

I believe this is the beginning of the end of the two party system. Of course they will survive as rump parties for as long as there are the safe districts but I am looking for a fiscally responsible, small government socially liberal party. Are you out there?

Ron and Feisty:

Come on you guys. If last night wasn't enough to make you say, "All right, it's time to take off the gloves," it's never going to happen.

Let's get right down to brass tacks. It's not that the right-wing crazies won't debate, they CANNOT debate. They cannot support their talking points with fact. They would be shredded in an instant.

I hate the use of fear as a campaign tactic, but if these people don't scare the potty water out of you, nothing will. Cold logic is not a weapon you can use against these nuts. At the same time they scream for smaller government - they tell us we need "masturbation monitors". They want smaller government but they want to create a "pregnancy patrol". Oh yeah, that's keeping the government out of our lives and making it smaller.

They tell us we need to cut spending, but they won't tell us how. They tell us there's too much waste, but they can't tell us where it is. (As an aside, I can tell you I have written to my Congresswoman (R-Clueless) and advised her of where to find waste. I have connected all the dots for her and sent a crayon. She turns the problem over to the same bureaucrats who are responsible for the waste and tells them to investigate themselves. These are the same bureaucrats she tells us can't do their job. The bureaucrats tell her that Mr. Walker is wrong and that they are doing a stellar job. End of story. The waste continues.)

In spite of the fact that these people have been exposed repeatedly as liars and charlatans, they have motivated their functionally illiterate base. The right-wing reactionaries are moving rapidly toward totalitarianism. To say that isn't possible is to ignore their attack on the 14th Amendment. It is to ignore their craven smears on anyone who is not a true and loving "Christian". Well, maybe it's OK to be Jewish, but not real Jewish . It is to ignore the fact that they cater to folks who have a secret yearning to wear sheets instead of sleeping between them.

My patience with Democrats is very thin. Change is not something for which we hope. Change is something you MAKE happen. The bought-and-paid for Dems, along with their gutless Dem buddies did not MAKE it happen. We can't afford any more of that kind of spineless behavior. But we sure as hell can't allow these right-wing crazies to demand entry into our homes, while they allow the corporations and their fascist lackeys to gut America.

I do not think President Obama gave us the health care reform we needed and I daresay expected. However, I commend him for taking on a very thankless task, and taking it further than any previous President. That's the perseverance we are going to need for the next and greatest task facing us.

If we can put the Dems back in, what we must demand, with single-mindedness of purpose is the public financing of elections. That is the only way we will break big money's stranglehold on our nation. Everything must go the the back burner until this is done. Otherwise, we all lose.

Well what do you know Alan - finally something we agree upon and that is term limits!

And I also want to say thank you for a well written thoughtful post above as well as others I have seen recently from you!

Who know's... a couple more and we may elevate you to 'reasonable' with the likes of Grimey! ;0)

Come on you guys. If last night wasn't enough to make you say, "All right, it's time to take off the gloves," it's never going to happen.

I hear you David... one of the things I'm disenchanted with regarding Democrats is we HAVE NOT learned from history!

We need to STAND UP and be heard the same way as the tea baggers! Enough of the 'pussy footing' around...

Politics is a CONTACT sport and we should be going for the KO instead of a 'glancing blow'!

Alan,

How do you get term limits for Congress and the Senate when it takes a Constitutional Amendment? To start it takes a two-thirds majority to pass the legislation and then three-quarters of the states must pass it.

I doubt there would be any problem with getting the voters in the states to agree (like they did to limit terms for the President) but how does it get out of Congress? You assume the legislators will vote themselves out of a job (that most of them love).

This country needs major change, and not the kind Obama was supposed to bring. We must reduce the size, scope, and spending of government. We must reduce the salaries and guaranteed pension of government employees, including teachers and school administrators. The only way out of this economic mess that both Bush and Obama brought us is economic growth. No economy ever grew through taxing and spending. It will never happen.

The primary goal of incumbents of both parties is reelection. Both parties are slaves to earmarks and lobbyists.

What you are seeing is the Republican party dumping its old tax, spend, and earmark establishment. The go along to get along crowd is now being shown the door.

Don't misunderestimate ( from my pal George W) the intelligence of the American people. We are smart enough to realize that trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see are not sustainable. A government that buys votes with spending programs cannot stand. A nation where half of its citizens do not pay any federal income tax cannot stand. Penalizing achievers while rewarding loafers cannot stand.

What good is a GOP majority if it acts just like the democrats? I don't want Democrat Lite! I want free market , fiscal conservative GOP elected officials.

How do you get term limits for Congress and the Senate when it takes a Constitutional Amendment? To start it takes a two-thirds majority to pass the legislation and then three-quarters of the states must pass it.

Like many aspects of life there are shades of gray. When the '94 Republicans came to power a large number did pledge to remain for only two or three terms. I didn't agree with this at the time, nor with many of their policies, but I have come round to term limits. Charlie Rangel is the poster boy for what being too long in congress does to a person. So, I think we can start with voluntary limits, but it the end it must come from the states. Stop the gerrymandering. One problem with this is that it will run up against civil rights legislation that was needed at the time, but maybe it is time for this to end.

What good is a GOP majority if it acts just like the democrats? I don't want Democrat Lite! I want free market , fiscal conservative GOP elected officials.

I want fiscal conservatives and I don't care about the letter after their name!

Alan: I agree with Feisty...that was a very reasonable post. Likewise. Dennis is also correct. Term limits will require a Constitutional Amendment. Right now the only form of term limits is when the voters have had enough or a particular legislator and simply vote him/her out of office. We are seeing some of that in this election cycle.

I cannot find the link to the stats on this, probably because it is a few years old but.........

Stated early in this thread it was said that the "middle class" was shrinking, and that is a true statement. The problem is, the "lower class", as a percentage of the population has pretty much been stagnant for the last 30 years. Now if the "middle class" is shrinking, and the "lower class" is remaining the same, where are all the "middle class" people going? The only correct answer is upward.

But it is not always that simple, before this recent downturn in the economy, the "middle class" has actually been doing ok, it is just that the definition of the "middle class" has not kept up with the times.

Yet they still won!

where are all the "middle class" people going? The only correct answer is upward.

You're kidding... right??

I want fiscal conservatives and I don't care about the letter after their name!

...that come with tights and a cape?

VERY WELL SAID!! gudos!

John McCain is most certainly not a member of the tea party...

Left-wing panic attack. Liberalism will be set back decades after this debacle of poor administration.

Wizard, I'm afraid you're no wizard with statistics. The middle class is defined variously as the middle 3 quintiles of earners or a range above and below the median. Therefore they can't go upward. The difference between the middle and the top is growing rapidly thanks to the Conservative agenda. That's where the wealth is going, that's been the plan all along. http://www.lwv.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=12682

"...just repressing opposing thoughts by whatever means possible, including efforts to collapse rational thought."

Feisty and Beverly: You both were collapsed for no good reason. I guess that proved my point.

Sorry no joe, i was wondering how in the world some repubs are voting for her? just because she's new?? she's a complete wack-job like Sharron Angle, I mean Joe Miller, I mean Paladino, I mean Rand Paul, I mean Michelle Bachmann... you get the picture...

I dont know how your party support these complete nuts, who shouldn't be anywhere an intelligent discourse. Hopefully some in your party would wise up, so even I as a democrat would have the option to vote republican. I would love to vote for interest rather than party line... but at this time, this is no way to go....there are too many crazies in the republican party.

Handgunner

"Left-wing panic attack. Liberalism will be set back decades after this debacle of poor administration."

Handgunner- have you been hanging out with JoAnna too much, or what? What the hell does your post have to do with the topic at hand here? Y' thought it was time to toss in some distraction for some reason? Geez- you at least could have tossed in 'teleprompter' or something.

Well written, Ron from Indiana.

My hope, and I think I am right, is that when voters in the middle (Independents and some less active Republicans) start to learn what the Tea Party people actually want, they will become enormously unpopular. The mainstream Republicans know this to be true, which is what has them most worried.

The better the Tea Party does in the Republican party (in primaries, and driving mainstream candidates further to the extreme right), the worse the Republicans will do, in the long run, in national elections. They'll do better this November, but in the long run, they will become even weaker than they currently are.

It takes many voters a long time to figure out what is going on.

You are right, you need ideas and not slogans to govern. Policies have to be developed with an understanding of their effects, not based on some strict ideology. For example, if federal money is withdrawn from healthcare costs, who makes up the difference? Even under Bush, the federal share of health costs increased above 50% of the total. Get rid of Medicare and Medicaid, and you will shut hospitals down without a policy to make up the difference. That's just one example.

Your president, your party, their "legilative accomplishments", and his agenda have all been rejected like no other in US history.

As evidenced by what, the nomination of a far-right Sarah Palin wannabe in Delaware?

Uh...sure...okay.

Hear! Hear! I think is the way they used to put it. Good post, Florida Dem!

Florida Dem: Thank you for your kind words. I too am trusting that independent voters will say the Tea Party is not a group I want running our government.

Fesity Redhead: Politics is a CONTACT sport and we should be going for the KO instead of a 'glancing blow'!

So true Feisty. And we on the Right are doing what your hero Barack Obama told us to do: As he said: "I want you to get in their faces!" We'll see those smirks on the faces of the Left disappear real soon now.

From the looks of things Ron... the righties 'virgin' ears are sensitive to the term TEA BAGGER!

Like it's OUR fault they named themselves without once again doing there home work?

Who can EVER forget them running around last August with tea bags stapled to their foreheads! lol

Am I the only one fascinated with the 'taunts' from the righties thse days? It's hysterical that they can't come up with ONE single idea... so instead they've resorted to school yard bullying! lmfao!

Interesting approach, but I think this article illustrates that the tea party isn't in fact an identifiable entity, as much as a rejection of big government and spending. Of which, I think you will see a majority of independants will identify with.

The worth of the individual tea party candidates (and the brands they project) remain individual and TBD. If the Dems hope to combat tea party candidates I think they need to debate and challenge on social issues, because I believe the anti tax narrative the tea party espouses will remain popular through the November elections.

Ron; your point is well worded; and it would be reasonable to find out what anyone would do if put in control of overseeing the business of the country! be for being elected to any position, let the debates begin.

ltjdangle, MY ancestors settled in SW Iowa before it was a state. They helped build the CB&Q railroad. My sons are 5th generation native-born citizens. You get a say in this country but you don't get to take MY country away from me.

Funny how Conservatives talk about "freedom" all the time but for those of us who disagree our freedom is to "sit down and shut up" or "leave the country." Is this the egalitarian, democratic principles upon which the United States was founded, or is it the language of bullies and despots?

Isn't it so clever to twist the appropriation of a patriotic symbol and mutate it into a smarmy sexual innuendo? It is in the 8th grade, anyway...

Ron & Feisty - really good, solid observations.

This is not unlike the aftermath of the massive Republican loss in 1976, when some pundits predicted the demise of the GOP. That time, Reagan spent the next 4 years cultivating the right wing's Libertarian and religious factions. This time, the Tea Party shows a theme fused of again, Libertarians, religious fundamentalists - and more than a trace of the ideology of the militia movements.

Their mish-mash of concepts is all anti-government. Little of what they say is new. Their concept of "governing" is to STOP governing:

1. close down a major portion of the Federal apparatus,
2. wipe out a vast segment of regulatory oversight,
3. close down the IRS and impose either a nationwide ad valorum tax (basically a sales tax), or set in place a flat tax,
4. eliminate inheritance and capital gains taxes entirely,
5. relinquish most Federal authority to the states (a resurrection of the issue once settled by the Civil War),
6. if not halt all immigration then make immigration legally nearly impossible,
7. displace millions of undocumented immigrants through mass roundups and deportations,
8. impose an "official English" regime and eliminate as far as possible the use of other languages in at least any government operations (including public schools, while they still exist)
9. cut off all foreign aid,
10. force the U.N. to relocate abroad and drop out of the U.N.,
11. privatize almost all public functions, from schools to highways, including the Public health Service,
12. and of course cut off all public social programs including Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, WIC, Aid for Families with Dependent Children, Head Start, all public housing programs, and all government subsidies including those for agriculture

Not EVERY Tea Party person agrees with each point just listed, of course. This is a compilation of the different positions taken by various candidates - Rand Paul is one of the more extreme, while Sharron Angle has backed away from prior support of just about everything on the list. Dan Quayle's son is right in there, however, and Michelle Bachman is nearly a 100 per cent supporter.

Naturally, the agenda just listed takes as a given that virtually everything done during the Obama Administration would be wholly unrolled. It also, ironically, unrolls a great many important programs and reforms created by the Republican Party between 1880 and 1912. These include creating the Civil Service system to replace a very corrupt structure of Federal appointments (not that vary many Federal appointments would still exist). And, of course, the Tea Party agenda would essentially wipe out labor laws, union rights, and such niggling matters as minimum wage laws.

Ultimately, the Tea Party agenda could lead to the complete dissolution of the United States. It will lead to massive unemployment, collapse of the middle class, a near-feudal class structure, poverty on a scale not seen since Jacob Riis documented it in the early 1900's, the end of any concept of Civil Rights and equality, starvation and death and homelessness greater than that of the Great Depression, and violent civil disorder.

The kind of America the Tea Party desires to "take back" is a largely rural and agrarian America of the 1840's - which of course today cannot realistically ever be re-created.

It is vital that candidates opposing the various Tea Party nominees explain these things to their constituents. It is understandable that the nation is frustrated and fed up - the years of collapse and conflict since Bush brought on a global crisis have been filled with fear and suffering. They are NOTHING like the disaster that awaits if even a portion of the Tea Party agenda is ever instituted.

"It’s a Republican Party that’s being led by Palin, DeMint, Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh."

The radical right does not debate because their arguements are undefendable, their policies are nothing more than bumper stickers. When an independent source like factcheck calls them out on an issue, they attack them for being biased.

These so called GOP leaders don't need to be checked only on facts, they need reality checks.

There is little difference between our radical nut jobs like the teabaggers and the radical nut jobs that make up the Islamic extremist. Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph both radical conservative nut jobs I am sure would be proud members of the Tea Party.

If the Delaware Tea Party win demonstrates anything, it is what is bad for the GOP is good for the USA!!!

AND when Karl Rove tells the press the Republican Party is Candidate is CRAZY and Unqualified, that speaks volumes!!!

I absolutely love this! Keep em coming tea baggers. We'll take all the Christine O'Donnells you want to give us! The more we see of these far less than capable right wing candidates, the better things look in November. I propose that the tea baggers have a huge telethon with Mama Griz as the MC and Michele Bachman as the "color analyst". Maybe we can have Ron Paul and Sharron Angle do some magic tricks. Go ahead mainstream GOP, sit back and let them have lots of face time with the real American mainstream voters. We love right wing extremists, they will surely seal the deal in November for a long two years of absolutely no chance of GOP filibuster. LMFAO!

Kudos Birdman...very well stated! Don't you just love this!

The tea baggers are the greatest gift the GOP has given the Democrats since Herbert Hoover. The implosion of the Republican party is eminent and unfolding right before our eyes!

Go away for a day, a week or a month it doesn't matter. The return is always greeted by the same group of lefties practicing political and social mutual masturbation while their attitude implies that they "own" First Read.

I haven't "explored" the new FR format since the switch some months ago, but the whole "collapsing" thing sounds like censorship to me.

Meanwhile, while Republicans sort out their "issues", Democrats continue to be so clueless as to what's going on, it is truly fun to watch from both perspectives.

So, Dems, keep clinging to your cliches`about who is running the party and keep analyzing the Republican "implosion" while your own sucks you into a political black hole.

See you again in a couple of weeks. One day is as good as another.

Gary 420 wrote (conservatives for the legalization of marijuana? You sir, should start a movement):

Don't misunderestimate ( from my pal George W) the intelligence of the American people. We are smart enough to realize that trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see are not sustainable. A government that buys votes with spending programs cannot stand. A nation where half of its citizens do not pay any federal income tax cannot stand. Penalizing achievers while rewarding loafers cannot stand.

The American people are unintelligent enough to believe that either party, when in power, will cut spending/programs that ANY of their constituents rely on. They are unintelligent enough, apparently, to make the distinction between not paying FIT, and having that tax refunded to a large portion of Americans. Unintelligent enough to realize that a significant portion of current deficits can be attributed to the economic downturn and the lack of tax revenue that comes with it. Unintelligent enough to see that the rich pay a lower portion of their money in taxes than the middle class, despite their higher tax brackets.

Calling the American people stupid might be too harsh. Misinformed or uninformed might be better. But the blame falls equally on the American people, the news media, and our politicians.

Dennis wrote:

How do you get term limits for Congress and the Senate when it takes a Constitutional Amendment? To start it takes a two-thirds majority to pass the legislation and then three-quarters of the states must pass it.

I doubt there would be any problem with getting the voters in the states to agree (like they did to limit terms for the President) but how does it get out of Congress? You assume the legislators will vote themselves out of a job (that most of them love).

It would be nice for politicians to do this of their own volition as Alan suggested, but that’s unlikely – as in ’94, the American people will forget about the promise, or politicians will disregard it. The only way I think it would work is for it to become an overwhelmingly popular issue with the people. Politicians would save their skin today by placing themselves out of office in the future.

I would also like to see the abolishment of political parties. As I’ve said many times before, I think it would elevate political discourse in the country. It would only pass as law under the same circumstance, though, and would probably run in to other legal issues (peaceful assembly, perhaps).

It would be so nice if the people posting on this site could refrain from calling those whom they disagree with stupid/hick/greedy and racist. Adults should be able to comment politely on a topic without calling others names or insulting them. There are obviously two political parties in these country and the probably will never agree on most issues. BUT resorting to name calling only demonstrates lack of intelligence. The party winning the presidency has the right to try to implement to try to implement their agenda. BUT that doesn't mean the other party just should lay down and let them do it. Each party has the right to fight back. I don't recall the democrats being called such vicious things when they objected Presidents Bush's agenda. The double standard must stop, if its wrong to stand up for what you believe in in this country, our country is really in a mess

Supporting the constitution, bill of rights, freedom of religion, smaller government, current laws written by both parties, and fiscal responsibility can only be viewed as "extremist" by someone REALLY far to the left who wants to redefine the country completely and thinks that they're actually center. Even MSNBC is running stories about the Tea Party being against GOP candidates. The name calling politics has left too many people clueless about what this is even about.

And the Tea Party has nothing to do with the 2008 presidential loss. This is about Congress and Senate seats now. I'm a Tea Party member and I have no desire for the GOP to gain majority. I do have a desire to send Reid and Pelosi home though. 51% Republican candidates will do. We need a Congress & Senate evenly matched so they start working for us again rather than voting along party lines.

To Ron in Indians I say, you obviously have never attended a tea party and don't know and understand what the tea party is all about. I suspect you have no or little interest in learning what it is all about. Now let me try to answer your last question: The Tea Party is demanding that candidates be true to their campaign promises and stop comprising on key constitutional issues like States Rights. Also we must balance the budget, stop the ear marks and excess spending, and enforce our existing laws especially when it comes to illegal immigration. The American public is fed up with the Reid/ Pelosi/ Obama and even George W. Bushes' promises that they have no or little intention of fulfilling.

Ed Perkins, WI

Edward Perkins wrote:

The American public is fed up with the Reid/ Pelosi/ Obama and even George W. Bushes' promises that they have no or little intention of fulfilling.

I'm pretty fed up with people telling me what the American people do and don't want. I'm a member of the American public, and I'll speak for myself.

Do you really believe that the Tea Party will be any more effective in upholding its vague promises of "cutting waste" and "limiting government" than Republicans?

Bri wrote:

If Teabagger is allowed, the Ni**er" should also be allowed.

As stated above, I hate blanket statements, but you're not doing your party any favors in regards to the stereotypes placed on them brah. The former is an insult hurled by a child. The latter, possibly the most hateful word in our nation's history. I'm all for civility but likening the former word to the latter is extreme.

"I don't recall the democrats being called such vicious things when they objected Presidents Bush's agenda."

How about "traitor"? That one was a regular for years. To me it's worse than any "clever" slam because it directly challenges my legitimacy as an American. You'll have to excuse me if in return I don't cut Conservatives a lot of slack. Next time their challenge might just stick.

Dear Bri: We are merely giving the 'tea baggers" the respect of using the name that they chose for themselves. The name "Tea Party" belongs to heroes of the Revolutionary War. I simply do not see heroes participating amongst the "tea baggers" who have done their level best to shut down reasonable discourse in this country.

Well said Janet! I appreciate your discourse. As soon as someone calls the other person a name, the namecaller loses the argument. If discussion can't be maintained by articulate thought, then the best thing to do is not comment back.

The GOP is starting to eject the members that are too establishment oriented. This is a good thing and will help to create positive change in this country. No matter how the democrats view these changes by laughing, ridiculing or puffing their own chests up, a move to the conservative right is needed in the GOP. Moderates never accomplish anything but capitulation. There are several RINO's I'd like to see get the boot, but for some reason the local republicans in their districts simply don't have a clue.

Although the liberals have a right to express their opinions and pass their laws, what is sorely needed is a strong conservative opposition to even the field. Like a pendulum, the ideological swing is going to come back right. When that happens, hopefully the politicians in office will have enough stones to repeal a lot of the liberal agenda items aimed at socializing this country. The first to go has to be health care reform. That totally screwed up legislation needs to be tossed in the garbage.

We desperately need illegial immigration action. The bozos in Washington are allowing the borders to be porous and they are doing it deliberately. Imagine the federal government suing a state over trying to protect it's citizens from illegals that have no regard for the laws of our country. I am stunned over the response. If I were a leader, I'd say build a fence 100 feet high made out of 5" thick hardened steel. But nope... the politicians in Washington who know the problem are turning their backs on it.

We need political reform... and I am glad to see it happen in the GOP. For too long, lazy, no good, career politicians have dominated the landscape. It's time for fresh faces and fresh ideas to lead this country away from liberal policies.

ron of indiana - interesting that you should post this:

Last night the Tea Party won big. Armed only with slogans, I doubt if they can answer a simple question, “If you were to win, what is your plan to solve the nation’s domestic problems?”

I seem to recall a freshman senator from Illinois in 2005 who went from obscurity and with no national or international political experience to become the president of the US armed with only a slogan of "hope and change". Has he come up with a viable plan to solve our domestic problems? I think not. The other day I read a Newsweek article stating:

The president hasn’t invited the House minority leader over to talk, and Obama had his first private Oval Office chat with Mc Connell only last month. Better late than never, but too late to do any good this cycle

If you and your friends are implying that slogans don't make a candidate viable for a possible public office then I question the logic of having obama being a competent president or the points being valid that you are trying to make in the rest of your post and of the other posts supporting it.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/12/fineman-what-went-wrong-for-obama-and-the-dems.html?GT1=43002ml

@ltjdangle Dangle said: ".. or just return to your native countries"

You mean I have to go back to Detroit? Damn, I was enjoying Tucson so much though.

I am not Dem nor Rep. I see good and bad on both sides.

Dems are assuming that the reps will lose the game allowing them to win. Dems are going to play ball but will win due to Reps losing. This to me is bad in its own. Dems should be looking to improve themselves as well.

Reps need to find themselves. The biggest concern to me about both parties is the simplistic stances that they take in a complicated environment. Seeing Dems being the party of libs, and Republicans being the ""conservative party in my view is very bad news. Each Party needs to be as complicated as the group its governing! This separation of views will in my opinion create more tug of war and less results!

Sure we can meet everyones needs if every politician listens to the people and other politicians you may not agree but you have to agree on purpose. If there wasn't a need then there would not be a voice of opposition! Too much tug of war. Is it really about winning and losing?

the "no debate" must be in vouge, the health care bill did not get debated! I guess if you have a majority, you pretend you want to debate- allow others to agree with you; OR you block them from praticipation and call it good or make claims the other side as the party of "no".

what happens whent he table truns, will the hostility (which is seen on BOTH sides) and allegation stay te same? will the Republicans call the Dems the party of "no"??

Well OF COURSE the Teabaggers dont want to debate Democrats! If they did, the voters would find out just what they stand for, and would do if elected! And I can ASSURE you that voters will NOT like what they hear if there are truthful debates!!!

SO, now, First Read, tell us how you think this will affect the Democrats whose prospects for historic defeat you have been bellowing about for months!!! Seems to me, the more noise these Tea Party memebers make, the greater the chances for a Democrat resurgence! Perssonnally, Ive felt for months that the repubs/teabaggers wouldnt do all that well when the truth of their programs came out------------- UNLESS the media does NOT inform the voters about them!! For example, why not make totally clear that Tea Party memebers, if elected in a take over of the House, will immediately propose cuts to SS, medicare and other entitlements----------- and are willing to shut down the government and NOT compromise (as Newt did) to achieve this goal!

The media has been a gross failure in that regard for at least the last 2-3 years! Some of us ARE watching to see if you fulfill your obigations to the public!

dennis of ohio and anon monster - I have been told by a previous poster in another thread that a constitutional amendment can also be submitted by the states themselves. Again, how do you find a politician willing to limit his time on the gravy train?

Another way of doing this is that if the incumbants don't want to make the change themselves per our request then they are voted out the next term. Do this often enough and even the dumbest politician will get the message and make a change. What I don't know is if it will happen soon enough to keep our country from being flushed down the toilet

Riggznit - Interesting post. Might I interject a thought though... Aren't some of the greatest concepts born out of complete opposition to each other? Moderation produces complaciency and requires very little work... complaciency is dangerous to society. I think it's better to have two fired up parties in opposition to each other than one big sluggish organism eating the fabric. Just my thoughts though.

why fiesty red head, what will the politically correct liberals and no-nut democrats do with you for fomenting a riot and playing a race card. Such behavior, tch, tch.

Politics is a CONTACT sport and we should be going for the KO instead of a 'glancing blow'!

lol!

American - You're right, but either way it would have to be vocally supported by a large portion of the country. State legislators want to rise through the ranks too, so I think it would be best if the Amendment started at the national level before going to the states.

As for voting incumbents out, I think that is even less likely to happen. Even with all of the "voter anger" news outlets keep reporting on, there haven't been that many incumbent losses in primaries. Most of the people voted in to office in November, Democrat and Republican, will be career politicians. What amount of outrage will it take to get an all new legislature every few years?

I do have to admit, I REALLY enjoy Feisty's whining to the monitor because she got nailed for her poor attitude and name calling.

LMAO!!!!

Ron Indiana:

Not sure about all of those on your list, but Rand Paul has agreed to debate Jack Conway, I live in KY and have been following the race closely. I cannot recall a single point in time when Rand Paul ever said he would not debate Conway.

Where did you get your list of people that said they would not debate their opponent?

51% Republican candidates will do. We need a Congress & Senate evenly matched so they start working for us again rather than voting along party lines.

Allen, I used this from your post. This is something that I am seeing more and more of.

What I cannot understand is how people expect the Congress to work together if they are 50/50, given the track record of the Republicans over the past 21 months.

What I believe we are going to get is GRIDLOCK, and we will get that ESPECIALLY if the Republicans and/or the Tea Party remain the minority but pick up seats in the House and/or Senate.

As part of the electorate, how can we expect that this group of Congresspersons will 'work together'? If we are trying to apply the logic that was valid during the Clinton Administration to the Obama Administration, we are going to be sad when things will not work. It is NOT the same thing.

I think that whomever maintains a majority in Congress - right or left - will need a substantial majority to get things done. Anyone hoping for a 50/50 Congress is asking to be disappointed.

It looks like the "Tea Party" after all, is serious about not being co-opted by the Republican Neo-cons. That being said here's what the Tea Party is/should be about; Restoring the country to "Constitutional Law", of which the destruction of those ideals began long ago. Additionally, a complete audit of the Federal Reserve, return to sound monetary policy, very limited government, the end to wars overseas, pre-emptive war, war without declaration, cutting taxes, buying American, repealing Obama-care, returning more taxes to the people to stimulate job growth, and last but not least, clamping down severely on illegal immigration, and an indefinite moratorium on all immigration!!

pietro - I believe that by eliminating "ear marks" or "porkbarreling" on the major bills this will have to make the politicians focus on the intent and merits of the bill so that it can be passed. Save the porkbarrel, special interest, pet projects bill for after the major bills have been debated, modified and passed.

Oh Bull, This constant fear mongering about the "war on the middle class" is garbage. The middle class in America has never had more opportunity to advance itself. We'velived in bigger & better homes, drove more expensive cars, had more toys than my parents of the world war II generation. I fully remember, eating out was a "treat", living in a 1000 sq. home was the norm in Socal, and a "new" car was really just a "newer" car than what the family owned (let alone only having one car in the family). The war on the middle class crowd are acting ridiculous, and doing the same thing they're accusing other people of.

Speaking of the Tea party, I'm very happy to see this movement grow. As a Independent who has generally voted democratic (I have no issues with abortion, gay marriage) wasn't the talk about Republicans expanding "their" tent a big issue in years past? Now their doing that. Look the amount of women who have run for office under the Tea party banner.

Also speaking of the Tea Party, The media (and...many people on the blogs) keep getting the narrative wrong. This portrayal of "hard core" right ringers is plain stupid and only an attempt to box in a group of people to marginalize their political power. Apparently is not working. There aren't enough hard core right wingers to win any election. I've been to two Tea Party events as a non registered person and I don't hear racist, evangelical far right baloney. Every conversation is about the government and what role it should play in out lives. Frankly, George Bush (rightfully so) has been a big topic of conversation about how irresponsibly he acted in increasing the federal budget. So I guess keep up with the narrative if you think it's working for ya.

It's quite funny I have to admit, watching people in complete panic over a group of people who are simply telling the Govt. to act more responsible. People have been asking for this on both sides my entire adult lifetime and now there is finally a political force to do it and some people go bananas. Try to box it in, call it, portray it how you will, but moderate independents like myself (Who will decide the next two elections) have become very sympathetic to any group who is at odds with Republicans and Democratics and are attempting to change business as usual in Washington.

american-2051576

pietro - I believe that by eliminating "ear marks" or "porkbarreling" on the major bills this will have to make the politicians focus on the intent and merits of the bill so that it can be passed. Save the porkbarrel, special interest, pet projects bill for after the major bills have been debated, modified and passed.

American - I don't think we will ever see 'earmarks' or 'porkbarreling' going anywhere anytime soon, especially with Congress. Unfortunately, this is how a lot of people 'determine' if their representative is working for them or not. I believe that it is not an overtly bad thing if it is aplied uniformly (like 1% of the budget is for spending in 'home' districts), but to give a Congress a 50/50 split and expect them to 'work together' to pass ANYTHING is a stretch.

I'm sorry - I don't see Congress doing anything unless there is impetus applied. We are going to see GRIDLOCK - and this will be 1000 times worse than what we saw in 1994 - UNLESS that impetus is applied. What is the impetus? Possibly the President's agreement, possibly a filibuster-proof majority, possibly the threat of a Presidental veto.

Darryn wrote:

Oh Bull, This constant fear mongering about the "war on the middle class" is garbage. The middle class in America has never had more opportunity to advance itself. We'velived in bigger & better homes, drove more expensive cars, had more toys than my parents of the world war II generation. I fully remember, eating out was a "treat", living in a 1000 sq. home was the norm in Socal, and a "new" car was really just a "newer" car than what the family owned (let alone only having one car in the family). The war on the middle class crowd are acting ridiculous, and doing the same thing they're accusing other people of.

Technological advances providing cheaper food, cars and homes don't signify advances for the middle class. Buying power has increased for all levels of society since your grandpappy's time, but wealth continues to consolidate at the top. I don't consider it a war on the middle class. I do consider it an issue.

Ha Ha Ha, the Repubs are splintering and their candidates are so extreme right, they are unelectable. The tea baggers rock! It's like they have 50 Naders that only the crazies will vote for. Bring on Nov and 2012!

Hey USMC1 " teabagger" Better pack a lunch because I can Garoontee it going to take you all day if you decide to strap on my "candy" a$$

This just keeps getting better and better by the post! I see the election "afterglow" has all the teabaggers wanting more. Your delusional world is looking pretty good through your thoughtless, greedy, and ultra-conservative rose colored glasses. Enjoy it while you can, the "party" is about to end. The teabaggers will not and cannot debate the issues...even within their own party. This is really going to be fun to watch! Do you really think that the majority of the American people want to support a bigoted, mean-spirited, greed oriented platform that attempts to re-instate 19th century economic philosophy in a modern, progressive society? It didn't work well then, it will not work now without grave fiscal consequences. Read the polls my friends, read the polls! As I stated in a previous post, keep the O'Donnells, Palins, and Bachmans, etc. out there selling their blank rhetoric to all of the "lost" sheep.

Well put Independent! Seems we have struck a very sensitive nerve with the TEABAGGERS. Hope all is well with you my friend!

Machinehead, I believe the comment you cited was offered as sarcasm and really did not reflect the actual feelings of ol' Rickeroo.

Let me tell you why The GOP is losing, I am a registered Independent that for the most part has voted republican for the last 20 years. and after seeing the republican party not do anything to help the American person in the last 2 years of this fiasco, and really seeing them for what they are. All they want to do is get re elected no matter what. I voted for a Tea party candidate instead of a republican. I figure at least we will have someone new in there because the people that have been in there the last 20 years haven't done krap but to feather there own nest. I hope the democrats do the same thing , dont have to vote for the Tea party but maybe vote anti incumbent

Since the first one on your list, Perry/White is inaccurate, I wonder how many other facts you've turned around to fit your agenda? Btw, White, rather not turn over his tax returns instead of debating Perry.

Independant Redneck ....... I am both retired USMC, and a hillbilly. I spent my life defending your right to be stupid. It is good you have something to hide behind, cause I am with USMC all the way. If you truly are a redneck, you know some of us like to settle things in the old fashion way.

Well Jim You see I spent a little time with the USMC myself a few years back and still have a great many friends and associates that I speak to right regular both active and retired. The one thing that they all have in common is none of them feel the need to go places and threaten folks to show how tough they are or come into a public forum such as this with that kind of unadulterated horse pucky.In fact most of them would be right upset to see some Jacka$$ like you and your buddy up there come on here and dishonor their Corp by doing it. So you see your old fashion ways of solving things doesn't bother me much at all. Ain't hiding behind nothing there sport. You can find me here most every day. So I'll stick with the original statement. You and your Buddy want so of this "candy" a$$ you best pack a lunch cause I Garoontee that its going to be a right long day for the both of you.

The plan is as soon as we clean our house we are going to help you with yours.

Don't need a debate. Need to clear the slate. Will not make anything worse than it is. Repubs and drats need to go. The public has had enough of both sides of socialism.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Woo you are scarey! Seems to me that you think the middle class are a bunch of big whiners waiting for some of the rich Hollywood types to come rescue us. Man, I don't think you understand the middle class unless you are only part of the middle class because you did not earn your place in the middle class by your own blood, sweat and tears.

To me the middle class are hard working people who decided living on the welfare was not quite good enough. Stepping up to try their hand a owning their own destiny in business was way to big of a gamble. So go work your butt off working that job after you spent all that money on college, hoping that was the answer.

Al the middle class wants is to not be screwed by the people with their hand out because they feel entitled. We don't want to be screwed by higher taxes to pay for the people who want their hands out. Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie. And we know the rich have the ear of every politician and get their good deal written into the tax code so we all get scewed by loop holes.

I bet the Fair Tax will take care of all of those favors from Washington given to the rich by their cronies.

The problem the middle class has is the have no voice without the Tea Party. We get it from both sides. The non workers want the handout and the rich like Senator write their own breaks.

Another problem is that we call Small Business rich.

Get a clue.

Most guys running a cheeseburger stand could make 250K a year unless your burgers suck.

Pay a few helpers, your building rent, some utilities, your taxes, buying your burger materials, upkeep on your equipment and on and on.

This Guy is Rich because his burger stand made 250K before all of those things. He took home to the bank 50k to 100K for himself. And we consider that rich. What a sham.

I'm done.

Bye

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Your big government guys have stepped into a pile of s

$h_t. As the Reverend Wright once said, the chickens are coming home to roost.

Machinehead, I believe the comment you cited was offered as sarcasm and really did not reflect the actual feelings of ol' Rickeroo.

I guess I missed that. Whoops.

Or Tyler, here's a thought... you could simply be wrong. "tea bagger" was the name this group gave themselves when they started having their collective tantrum. As to your description, riddle me this...would you have suspended someone for using similar language?

Brian B.

I agree with the complacency of today, (Right NOW!). We are currently complacent!

For the Parties to be as complicated and diverse as the group its governing wouldn't per say cause complacency. Their would be fighting within the parties themselves along with the opposing party!! This would keep people on their toes to not inthink and cause them to outerthink! I hope that makes sense?

Its the tug of war based on parties current PR stance that holds us back. Its the winning of a party or a party majority which tips scales which eventually have to be tipped back often due to discrimination of ""groups.

Don't get me wrong good things have happened and will continue too! As it isn't the government that makes this country great its the PEOPLE!

Another wise person once said: "We've come to the point where some people in this country can't look at a fat man and a thin man standing side by side without thinking that the fat man somehow got that way by taking advantage of the thin one."

Sounds like many on this board. This place is filled daily with people complaining about the sucessful. Envy is no way to run a political party.

You do realize that those numbers include unemployment benefits; benefits necessary to buy food and keep a roof over family's heads. You do realize that 45% of Americans do NOT earn enough money to pay Federal income taxes--they do pay state and payroll taxes, along with sales tax, local option taxes, gasolilne taxes.

Touting the fact that 45% of Americans live at or near the poverty line is not something to be gleeful about or shout as further proof of republican governing superiority. It is proof, however, that distribution of wealth has occurred--the middle class giving to the rich; that trickle down does not trickle down; while the wealthy become richer, the middle class shrinks and more people fall into poverty. Hardly something to brag about.

Joe,

Hmmm, did the Wall Street Journal include tax credits and breaks like the government subsidy private health insurance companies get from Medicare Advantage as "government assistance"?

And oil company subsidies?

And all the for-profit educational institutions that have cropped up to take government loan money for degree programs that are not even hiring?

Or all the hospitals stealing from the government via Medicare fraud?

Or all the no-bid defense contracts and missing government funds in Iraq and Afghanistan?

What about the salary of all of the "conservative" politicians that rail against "big government", but then pay MILLIONS of dollars to get elected to a job that pays $80,000 . . . wonder why they are so eager to serve in an institution that "doesn't work"?

Did the WSJ consider the fact, that of that 45% figure, 10% are unemployed, some are retired, and many don't earn a living wage?

Enough of the phony numbers and statistics games. I call bullsh!t.

Here is a 2004 report from The Heritage Foundation on poverty as of 2002 in America.

It shows how poverty has been on a steady increase. So why in 2004, when the Republicans controlled Congress and the Whitehouse, didn’t they act on this report and put programs in place to change the trend?

This shows the Republican’s have no concern for anyone other than the well-to-do.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2004/01/Understanding-Poverty-in-America

To continue with Jody's train of thought; how many years did the republicans hold the presidents office that allowed this trend to go on without any vetoes or programs to stop this from happening?

Why did they not create good jobs or keep the good jobs here, so the workers did not have to receive government help?

Today’s WSJ has an article exploring the fact that in 2008 almost half (44.4%) of households in the country received some form of govt benefits, up from 29.6% in 1983.

Does that include Medicare?

...Social Security?

Jody said: "Touting the fact that 45% of Americans live at or near the poverty line"

Sorry to burst your bubble jody, but, that's no longer true. From the Tax Foundation:

March 10, 2010

Record Numbers of People Paying No Income Tax; Over 50 Million "Nonpayers" Include Families Making over $50,000

by Scott A. Hodge

Fiscal Fact No. 214

Introduction
Tax Day, April 15, is looming for the nearly 142 million Americans who will file a tax return for income earned in 2009. While most taxpayers worry about paying the correct amount and even pay for professional assistance to make sure they do, many millions of tax filers will be "nonpayers."

A nonpaying tax return is one filed by an individual or couple who, thanks to legal credits and deductions, owes nothing. Most people who get a refund after filing their tax returns are not nonpayers; they have overpaid their taxes through paycheck withholding and are being refunded just a tiny portion of that payment.

But during 2008, more than a third of all tax returns resulted in complete nonpayment; that is, people got back every dollar that was withheld from their paychecks during the year. Many got quite a bit more, turning Tax Day into a payday.

Two Records Set in 2008: Most Nonpayers and Highest-Earning Nonpayers

Nonpaying status used to be a sure sign of poverty or near-poverty, but Congress and the President have changed the tax laws to pull much of the middle class into the growing pool of nonpayers. The income level at which a typical family of four will owe no income taxes has risen rapidly, now topping $51,000.

Since the early 1990s, however, lawmakers have increasingly used the tax code instead of government spending programs to funnel money to groups of people they want to reward. Credits have been enacted to subsidize families with children, college students, and purchasers of hybrid cars, just to name a few of the most well known. In terms of tax revenue, the most significant of these socially targeted credits was the $500 per-child tax credit enacted in 1997. The 2001 and 2003 tax bills doubled the value of the credit to $1,000 and added a refundable component.

Most tax credits can only reduce a taxpayer's amount due to zero, but the EITC and the child tax credit are also refundable, meaning that taxpayers are eligible to receive a check even if they have paid no income tax during the year. Those tax returns have become, in effect, a claim form for a subsidy delivered through the tax system in much the same way that a traditional government program sends out a welfare check or a farm support check.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/25962.html

I have seen a lot of people get paid by the federal government for doing nothing. In the town I live in, the unemployment rate is 17%, a lot of people receive some sort of food stamps, welfare check, housing subsidy, or earned income credit. I'm all for helping those that need it. But the problem is that most of these people are not trying to better their lives. A lot of people get arrested for "selling" their food stamps for drugs, booze, and cigarettes. They complain about their income taxes.....not what they have to pay, but that they are only receiving $7,500 back from their return this year and not the $10,000 they had gotten the year before. My hometown has only about 20,000 residents, yet the local paper has almost 2 pages devoted to the police blotter. A lot deals with drugs and welfare fraud. A lot of people will work under the table and still collect unemployment benefits and/or welfare benefits. This is what I get mad about. Why do I work 40+ hours a day, when someone who goes out every night, and watches tv everyday gets the money I worked for.

I hated Bush for getting rid of the welfare for work program. There are tons of nonprofit organizations and hospitals looking for volunteers everyday. I think those that receive some sort of welfare benefits shoud be required to volunteer a minimum of 20 hours per week to continue to receive these benefits. They should also have to meet with a department of welfare (or whoever hands out these checks) agent and show them a list of potential employers they've sent their resume's to or handed in applications to. If they can't do this.....the flow of money stops.

Wow Joe . . . a whopping $51,000 for a family?

With health insurance premiums rising 20% a year and the price of everything else going UP while salaries stay stagnant, if you are lucky enough to have a job.

Let's do the math . . . $51,000 a year divided by 52 weeks in a year . . . that is $980 per week Joe, BEFORE state and local taxes come out of that, to eat, pay your rent, buy your gas, pay that super high deductible for your health care, which you can only get if you or someone in your family doesn't have a serious illness. That's just the basics - no birthdays, Christmases, family vacations, or school pictures.

And you think that post is HELPING your cause?

Life among the filthy rich has apparently robbed you of your common touch Joe.

What a joke.

Dear Cult of Personality:

While you are keeping an eye out for some broke joker selling food stamps, defense contractors and bankers are freaking stealing your house, your car, and your left kidney and sneaking out the side door!

Good grief.

Nashville Fan

First off, I don't know how it is in Nashville, but here, a family of three earning $51,000 lives very comfortably. Heck, my family doesn't make much more than that.

Now why do you think bankers and defense contractors will just come in and steal my house and car. You know a funny thing happens when you pay your bills on time......No one bothers you!

It is also true that a fair percentage pay little or no federal income taxes because they maximize their legal deductions. I do not understand why some people think being unemployed is something most people want. They would rather be working, unemployment barely keeps many of these peoples heads above water.

But how can these people find good paying jobs when the republicans kill job bill after job bill. I warned everybody about the republican Agenda to stop President Obama's plans to move America forward and then turn around and blame him for what is the obstructionism of the republicans.

We had proof of this yesterday when 37 republicans voted no on the Small Business Tax Cuts and Capital Bill. This is designed to help small businesses via tax breaks and much needed capital to hire people. President Obama is proposing a bill to repair our crumbling infrastructure that, according to the Transportation Industry, will create 35,000 jobs for every Billion invested, There are job bills currently being held hostage by the republicans currently.

How many of the people working at WalMart, fast food outlets, and other low wage jobs also get supplemental assistance from the government due to their depressed wages? We the People are SUBSIDIZING the profits of large corporations with our tax dollars. That's why the Conservative plan is to let the minimum wage fall farther and farther behind the inflation rate. http://www.njpp.org/images/rpt_minwageadom_chart4.gif That's part of the TRUE cost of everything you buy at WalMart.

Of course in reality we should be thankful to our corporate masters that we even HAVE a minimum wage. The Conservative plan to abolish it was well underway before the Great Recession hit. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/01/the_minimum_wage_should_be_0_e.html

It seems that the large companies kept cutting jobs so that the company could profit and stocks could rise without long term goals. I keep hearing that we need to do more for "business" but what has "business" done for the working people. We've gotten the "business" or as they say "bidnes" from the Republicans. The reason more people are receiving government benefits is that more companies as doing as I said in my first sentence. The number of people receiving benefits started to rise long before we had the recession as wages kept getting lower and people took lower paying jobs. We need more companies working for long term growth and profits for business not just immediate profit.

Wellfare is the least of the problems in this country, the amount spent isn't even worth discussing compared to the WAR effort. I agree with the basic idea of the GOP "small government" but that is a silly idea when all you support is war and letting big biz ruin the country, the people and the resources to line thier pockets!

The more the government is asked to do, the more people it needs to make sure the $$$ are going where they are suppose to go, infrastructure, health care, welfare doesn't matter; you need insight and control.

The Teabagger party funded by none other then David Koch and Charles Koch, owners of Koch industries. SO keep beleiving this is a grassroots effort. These two brother are also big lobbyists for the GOP to have their way with the american people and resourses.

FUnny when Obama said he wanted to end the pork barrelling and the big biz lobbying that both sides did not clap.....because it eats into their re-election funds and graft and corruption accounts. SO don't blame Obama blame the other people we elected that don't want a change. No the teabaggers want change in their favor, watch and seen what happens.

Dano,

Congress is living in much higher cotton "off the dole" . . . what has your Congresscritter done to earn his or her check other than blow smoke up your tail and tell you what the poll told them you wanted to hear?

That don't take much talent.

Funny how folks always want to villify some broke folks, when there are big, shiny rich thieves all around us stealing BILLIONS of dollars, and nobody says a word.

Exxon pays ZERO income taxes in the United States in 2009 and not a word. Somebody living in a roach infested project house tries to drink their troubles away, and its time for a Congressional hearing.

Give. me. a. break.

Joe in Albany

I usually do not agree with you on most things, but the article that you are referring to is very eye-opening. Yes poverty is going up, but the article also refers to the fact that since the 1990's

"lawmakers have increasingly used the tax code instead of government spending programs to funnel money to groups of people they want to reward."....."The 2001 and 2003 tax bills doubled the value of the credit (per-child tax credit) to $1,000 and added a refundable component.

I believe that many of the decisions made over the past 20 years have led to this 50% of wage earners not paying any federal income taxes. And the truth is that is is all legal! Just wish I could get some of the those credits.

So maybe it is time to fix our tax laws. Completely overhaul the system. Make it so much more fair.

Co you think ANYONE currently in Congress of soon to be elected to Congress will have the will to fix the tax laws?

Dano,

All conservatives have "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" - until the oil leaks and they stand on the shores shrieking "Where's my government check!".

Or until it comes time for their tax break to expire, and then they shriek "What about us millionaires?"

I don't wanna hear nothing about "both sides" do it . . . and I don't wanna hear no false equivalency between "unions" which are no where near as powerful as the corporations that run our government and our media.

There is no comparison.

I suppose the folks who have a child born with a life threatening illness just made the "wrong choices". I suppose the folks who get laid off from a job just made the "wrong choices". Every hardship that ever befalls anyone in this country was "their choice" - they chose to work in an unregulated coal mine, they chose to buy tainted eggs, they chose to be born into a poor community.

Maybe you should right a book so we can all make "smart choices" like you and your wife.

Question for conservatives. If we abolished all of the social safety net programs, would you hire the lazy people you complain about? If you won't how do you expect them to make it in this society? If we look at other nations who lack the social safety net (Mexico) we see that they will emigrate to lands they can gain employment (where will that be) or they turn to violence/criminal activity. For me personally I'd rather pay the slightly higher taxes to keep the lazy at home and out of my way in the workforce as well as keep them from trolling the school yards and viewing my children as a paycheck via kidnapping. I'd love to hear some salient arguments but I won't hold my breath.

I am not very good at math, but if 45% pay no taxes, corporations are offshoring their businesses, the rich offshore their wealth, and the majority of republicans are on SS, then how is the country operating?

Dano:

I did not put words in your mouth or question your worth. I parroted back to you what "conservatives" spout here at First Read day in and day out - they are "the producers", they earn everything they get, and the rest of us are free loading, lazy folk who made the wrong choices.

Take that up with your fellow consevatives if it doesn't sound quite right (or write). ;o)

P.S. And for the sake of clarity, I am a 39 year old, African American Woman. I have been married for 17 years, I have two daughters, I pay taxes, I go to work every day, and I am part owner of a new small business.

So I am not stupid and I am not looking for anyone to take care of me.

And I know that there are a whole lot of people out here suffering, and it ain't because they made the wrong choices - its because the system is rigged against them.

Dano,

Thanks for taking the time to reply and share your perspective, and for the well wishes - I do appreciate it. For the record, I don't think all conservatives are evil, nor do I harbor any ill will towards rich people or legitimate business.

But I am very fed up with all the spin and lies designed to focus our attention on A, when the majority of the problem is B.

I wish all the best to you and your family as well - fundamentally, I think most of us want the same thing - and that is a chance to succeed.

P.S. I'm a Titan's fan . . . but they did have that 0 and 6 start last year, so the jury is still out !

We had proof of this yesterday when 37 republicans voted no on the Small Business Tax Cuts and Capital Bill. This is designed to help small businesses via tax breaks and much needed capital to hire people.

Obama spent all of our $$ already on health care. We're broke. This bill is just a diversion anyway. You don't need a separate "jobs bill" to give small business tax breaks. You just extend the Bush tax cuts. The Dems proposed renaming the Bush tax cuts to the Obama tax cuts rather than just extending them. It's like a bad sitcom in Washington now.

Telling Republicans to vote yes on Democrat bills isn't bipartisanship. I say keep voting no til he agrees to let MY elected representatives represent ME.

Mexico has a socialist medial system... that is a safety net

Joe, I find it very interesting you dont post the link to the article, but only offer your obviously unbiased summary of what it says!!!! <giggle>

I think most people in this country have no problem helping people that are truely in need, people who have been laid off and need help with bills. But I live near East St Louis, and you should see the number of people who make a living ripping us tax payers off. They sell their food stamps, (which by the way there is never a reason to be able to sell food stamps) lie on welfare applications and milk the system anyway they can. That is what has got people ticked off, we work hard save our money, and our pay bills on time, yet someone who makes a living off of welfare drives a fancy car, has the best cell phone possible and all kinds of other nice things that I can't afford because I go out and work hard for my money. Yet my taxes just keep going up and up because of these professional welfare people. Most of these people are very proud of the fact that "they are getting over on the man."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703791804575439732358241708.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

Happy now, Tom?

BTW, did you REALLY giggle after you wrote your post??

CU Farley, Most fat people are the ones on welfare. Nano - Totally agree with you. Not from Chicago, right outside of St. Louis on the Illinois side. We have the luxury of claiming E. St. Louis as our own. People on the welfare system totally abuse it. I don't think the people who post here realize it. Do you people realize if these people were not on welfare and working and paying taxes what a difference it would make?

"CU Farley, Most fat people are the ones on welfare." - cls

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, that is some astute analysis right there . . . so Rush Limbaugh is on welfare?

Who knew.

Great comment. I saw those poll numbers, too. McConnell had the audacity to say that democrats should wait until after the election to vote on this issue, there was no need to discuss this now. Why not? The GOP was perfectly willing to make it an election issue in the first place. I admit to enjoying the democrats turning the tables on the republicans on a tax issue. For the first time that I recall, the GOP has painted themselves into a corner. They cannot vote against tax cuts for 98% of Americans without showing their true political stripes--the rich must not be forgotten, the rich are hurting and need more money to buy luxuries.

I guess great minds think alike U.S. Navy . . . well done! ;o)

Talking points is all you have to offer, like the lame Repubs you lame Dems just follow like sheep you bag on anyone attempting real change, you think that welfare is helping when in fact it's holding people back from bettering themselves, you bag on the rich who got there from working hard, have you ever thought maybe your where your at because you only put out that much effort. Why do you think people who were in much tougher conditions succeeded? I'm sure you remember excuses are like A-Holes everyone has one.

wlee - 950886,

Sorry you cannot stand the facts. McConnell is lying trough his teeth, I gave no talking points only my opinions which I am entitled too.

U.S.Navy Ret.,

This threat of a filibuster by Mitch Mc Connell needs to become the reality!! This is a fight I want!!

This will show the Repubs as the 'rich guys party", Pres. Obama has it called it right, their holding us hostages! I don't need a poll to tell me Americans want "something" done to fix our problems, a filibuster is about the biggest "waste of time" to any way forward I can imagine!!

STOP playing defense Dems, take the fight to them, we need to get revved up for Nov., if we stand any chance at all.

wlee-950886 : you think that welfare is helping when in fact it's holding people back from bettering themselves, you bag on the rich who got there from working hard

im sry but welfare helps many people, but i will admit that there are a few (far less then the amount that rly need it) who do take advantege of it and are comfortable not owning a car or haveing no more than 2 days worth of clothing or shareing a home with half a roof no heat no hot water with rats and insects.
why do so many of you think that liveing on welfare is such a great life?? welfare gives you enough money to handel half of the min. neccesities needed to live, it doesnt buy u 9 cars 4 mansions and 50+ housekeepers/gardeners/nannies. no thats the life style of the top 2%, so stop fighting for them (they have lobiests for that), and if your rich please stop crying i for one DGAF about the poor lil rich guy haveing to pay what 10% of their income.... @!$%# if i had my way u all would be back to pre reagan tax rates and be paying 80% to 90% of your income!!

oh and that bs about rich people working hard to get what they have, save that load of bs for the simple minded folk that pray to palin! im not sure if there is stats to back this but im pretty sure the majority of the rich in this country are there not threw their own hard work but threw the
hard work/luck/and fortune of being born in this country of their parents or their parents parents or their parent parents parents......... and so on.

"you bag on the rich who got there from working hard"

Actually most of the got there the same way these guys did. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1

“You might ask: How does David Koch happen to have the wealth to be so generous? Well, let me tell you a story. It all started when I was a little boy. One day, my father gave me an apple. I soon sold it for five dollars and bought two apples and sold them for ten. Then I bought four apples and sold them for twenty. Well, this went on day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, until my father died and left me three hundred million dollars!” -- David Koch

The United States actually has LESS upward mobility than most of the other industrialized nations. Conservatives don't want you to notice that, and it's a driving force in the quest of Liberalism for a more egalitarian society.

Hypno you prove my point ,I never said some people don't need welfare I said living on welfare and no kidding they can't afford Mercedes but they really shouldn't be using it on gambling either. Are there people living off the riches of their parents yes, but their parents got those riches by working hard so indeed cut the B.S. As far as me being rich ,far from it, raised by my Mom who had four kids she didn't finish high school worked as a waitress, I on the other hand finished H.S. enlisted in the military to get some training in a field I could use upon leaving and now work for the state not having a pay raise in 5 yrs. I got here because this was all I was willing to put out, but of course all your problems are because of someone else. Navyvet yeah the economy is going great sounds like a talking point to me, jobs increased 67,000 yet unemployment went up.1% must be that new math I've heard about

Ok, you want to deal with facts. Here goes. The increasing of taxes on the top 2% will do the following:

1) Will increase taxes on over 50% of small businesses with employment between 20 to 400 employees.(WSJ)

2) Will increase taxes on 55% of all small business profits.(WSJ)

3) In the last 25 years, companies with employment between 20 to 400 employees were responsible for over 75% of all new hires.(Dept of Labor)

To say this tax increase will not touch small business is an unmitigated lie. To take more money from small businesses and then say we will loan some back to you is a travesty. Their is also several odius clause in these loan agreements which will make them unacceptable to most small business owners. First, the government receives immediate voting equity in the company. There are multiple clauses about the use of green energy. The companies with employment over 50 people must make themselves open to mandatory union organizing. Most small business owners who actually read these loan agreements will reject them.

There is one problem. Have you seen Keith Olbermann's ratings? No one is watching. Everyone is watching O'Reilly. So anything he shows is a non factor because of American choice!!

US Navy, great post. Be careful though, the Righties can't handle facts, it gives them migranes.

hypno, right on!

I think you made a mistake in your post, Ray. You meant to say "To say this tax increase will touch small business is an unmitigated lie."

Less than 2% of small business owners make enough money to declare over $200,000 income, $250,000 filing jointly. Since you seem a bit short on resources to back up your assertion I'll try to help.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/03/mcconnell-bush-small/

http://www.truth-out.org/mcconnell-repeats-debunked-lies-to-promote-more-tax-cuts-for-multi-millionaires62606

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mccains_small-business_bunk.html

Mnmillie, if you are referring to me as a righty you are mistaken, unlike you I'm an Independent thinker but keep on labeling without verifying.

wlee, If your name wasn't on the post it wasn't directed at you, hope this helps your paranoia. I have to laugh at those that are to embarassed to admit they're a Republican, your an "independent thinker" is code for theTea Party wing of the Republican Party. You can stay in denial if you want but after reading some of your previous posts your very much lean to the right.

You said that I was mistaken for referring to you as a righty, and then accuse me of labeling you without verifying, I think you should take your own advice.

US Navy

1) Thank you for your service

2) If taxc cuts created jobs, Bush would not have a worse job creation record than HOOVER!! lol

3) All these tax cuts were a primary reason that most of the current national debt was run up under reagan/bush/bush!! It's OVER $10T in debt!

4) OVERWHELMING majorities of americans favor NOT EXTENDING the tax cuts for the rich!! They've seen the damage that has been done!

Jody;

Is it not amazing that the more they claim change, the more it stay the same. A Tea Party rally yesterday had a parade where someone dressed in shirt and tie with an Obama mask was being drawn by a carrage and being whipped by the person in the Obama mask. And the Tea Party liars still claim they are not racists.

This is nuts, the US is being taken over by hate mongers, fear merchants, racists and bigots all in the name of politics. They have yet to present any new ideas, they run away from debates, do not answer any questions unless scipted by Fox News, just post talking points and negative ads and they win. This does not say anything good about those that are putting these people in a position of power that will dictate what happens in this country going forward.

Jody, Iowa: What an odd night in primaries. O'Donnell wins over Castle, Paladino beats Lazio--both of these candidates deserve close scrutiny by voters in their states. They are proof that the far right fringe of conservatives has engulfed the republican party.

I guess you weren't too concerned with the Far Left engulfing the Democratic party? Like when far left Senators Debbie Stabenow, Patty Murray, Al Franken, and the Old Guard far left liberals like Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein and Dick "Turbin" Durbin, along with socialist Bernie Sanders keep winning. Like when Far Left liberals like Schumer and Leahy run the Democratic party? Didn't see much of the Democrats asking for any scrutiny of that bunch. Rockefeller, Kerry, Mikulski, Menendez? Talk about fringe. Didn't see much scrutiny of those far left liberals either. Levin, Lautenberg, Kohl and Feingold? Same deal, all far to the Left of the political spectrum.Then of course there was biggest leftist in the Senate, Obama. My gosh, the entire leadership of the Senate is made up of far left liberals. But only now do the Liberals call for "scrutiny" of the GOP/Tea Party.

Change is coming Liberals.

This is a no brainer... STTS...

The other thing about the Republican swing towards more conservatism that puzzles me is the fact that the supporters of the Tea Party tend to exclude the largest growing demographic in the electorate, the Hispanics. In fact, the Tea Party's statements on immigration surely must turn off Hispanic voters. So they push them to the Democrats and almost guarantee future marginalization.

So, sounds like you are saying two wrongs DO make a right? Extremeism is a good thing? No matter who's it is? I think last night's focus was the repubs. Why are you talking about the other side this morning?? You are NOT redirecting anyone's attntion, here.....

Last post was meant to reply to JoAnna- not Jody. Sorry.

US Navy. Appreciate your good added thoughts. I had not heard of that TP rally, that is disgusting.

JoAnnaS. Do you ever write a comment without first reading ours? And do you ever reply without copying and pasting what is directly above? Dick Durbin, Al Franken, Debbie Stabenow, Barbara Boxer--extreme leftists? I didn't know that fighting for the middle class and the poor was an extremist concept. Bernie Sanders admits he is a socialist and his constituents make that decision, not me, but I do know this, he votes for his people not his beliefs. In 1982, the democratic party elected far left extremists and won big; in 1984, they lost big. Have a nice day JoAnna S. STTS

JoAnnaSmith1

Change is coming Liberals.

You got that right, Lady JoAnna. But it won't be with Tea Baggers. Didn't you hear what Karl Rove and The NRSS said? They will not support loons; especially harphies with schreecy voices like Sarah Palin and O'Donell.

Incidentally, change has come. We have healtlhcare (no other president has accomplished that feat), financial reform, Lilly Ledbetter act amongst so other changing agendas. the world looks at America much better since President Obama

Beverly in Chicago: Incidentally, change has come. We have healtlhcare (no other president has accomplished that feat), financial reform, Lilly Ledbetter act amongst so other changing agendas. the world looks at America much better since President Obama

We also have 10% unemployment, 25% underemployment, record home foreclosures, 1.6% GDP, massive new unpaid for entitlements, and world record deficits. And you somehow think that is good news.

Change is coming Liberals. Change you can believe in.

JoAnna: I'm looking for one original thought. Just one that did not come from Fox news. Just one that is not a response to Progressive ideas. Just one will do.

STS

JoAnnasmith1

Joanna the purges in the democratic party has begin as well, ted kennedy (god rest his soul) Dodd, Biden, Spector, indiana sentor, Obama old seat, and a few others. Boxer may loose and Reid as well. i really wish McCain had lost as well, he needs to go. madam speaker need to go as well.

last night i realizes that the republicans who were apart of the economic collaspe from the bush years are all loosing. at least the ones who are runing for re-election.

So this Take over of the senate and congress is going to not like 1994 or 2006. this time if the republicans do take control, they are going to have to make a deal with the tea party to allow there agjenda to go through. lets face it, joanna the republicans want to extend tax cuts that will add to the deficets and what i hear from the tea party they don't like Obamas spending and they don't like the deficets the republicans left in 2008.

so as you are rejoicing this morning you may want to wait on that because the grid lock coming will be nothen like the last 2 years. the time it will be from with in the republican party. we had blue dog democrats during the HCR debates, well the tea party will be the excact same pain in the ass for the republicans.

I really don't thing the tea party will soon forget the robo calls in delaware yesterday !!!!!!! it was down right dirty politics!!!!!!

Jeff: last night i realizes that the republicans who were apart of the economic collaspe from the bush years are all loosing. at least the ones who are runing for re-election.

You bet they are losing. People are tired of the spending. And the old-guard GOP were no different then Democrats in that regard. See Jeff, the Right of the country aren't into hero worship like the Left and into re-electing people that don't perform year in and year and year out.

Jeff: face it, joanna the republicans want to extend tax cuts that will add to the deficets and what i hear from the tea party they don't like Obamas spending and they don't like the deficets the republicans left in 2008.

What planet are you living on? It's the Democrats that have been pushing more and more for the Bush tax cuts extension. Talk about blinking - the Democrats have had their populist message for years now that the Bush tax cuts have destroyed the country. Now, when the cuts are set to expire, the Democrats know raising taxes in a weak economy will kill a meager recovery that is underway. And now they've flinched. More and more Democrats are even advocating an extension of the tax breaks even for the "rich".

So, what happened? Looks like they Democrats painted themselves into a corner with their populist message, and now they have to lie there way out of it. Now these tax breaks are all of sudden good in the Democrats eyes? Were the Democrats lying before when they were critical of the cuts, or are they lying now when they support the cuts? Either way, they are lying.

Ron;

You are going to be waiting for a very long time, probably as long as it takes for the dodo bird to come back. All they do is copy one line out of a post and try to make it fit their agenda, usually it has nothing to do about what the context of the discussion was.

They just copy over and over talking points that we all know and pretend they are doing something useful. No new ideas, no discussion on what they would do to reduce the deficit, create jobs, improve education, etc., etc. Just old rhetoric and pats themselves on the back. No reasons why they continue to campaign for All Americans then vote down bills that do just that.

Hypocrisy is running amuck on the right, we see it every day in the media and here as well.

Ron Indiana: JoAnna: I'm looking for one original thought. Just one that did not come from Fox news. Just one that is not a response to Progressive ideas. Just one will do

Don't watch Fox news. Apparently you do though. It, like CNN and MSNBC, is just eye candy for the ignornat. Perhaps that explains why you watch?

And I'm sorry to so disappoint you Ron. I guess I could stay up all night and write some musings and ramblings about one thing or another from a Far Left Liberal viewpoint and be the first to post everyday, but I guess I have different goals,

but I guess I have different goals,

Maybe...like getting suspended from FR for not following the rules?

Joanna,

The republicans have as well, Mitch McConnel want to extend tax cuts for every body, obama from 08 has said that he want to extend for 200k or less and 250k for couples. i have never heard him say he want to extend for the upper 2%, where did you get that from. that is soo far out. Obama is a tax and spend liberal, extend tax cut for the rich goes against everything he is about.

also i was stating my opinion, sorry to tell you but i'm not a bleeding lefty liberal, this is why madam speaker must go along with alot of the old guard repuiblicans and demorats. see i'm from the old school. i voted for Obama and i don't like all the spending, but i can seperate what i don't like from reality.

My point was that the tea party is not going to get to office and let the old guard republicans have there way, just like the blue dog democrats with HCR!!!!

Also when you comment on a post, you sound like a very very angry person. not angry about politocs but just angry. everybody that disagree with you or does not share your political view is not a bleeding lefty liberal. just like all tea partys people are not racist and consertives are not right wing racist people.

i mentioned the Robo calls from the republicans in delware and how the tea party will not soon forget that, its was dirty politics. you did not even repond and give YOUR opinion you just went off.

see Joanna there is middle ground here on this blog. but to you its either your a lefty liberal or a right wing consertive, this is just not true. read and re-read these post and you will see that its not 2 sides. you have moderate liberals and consertives, bleeing heart liberals and right wing consertives. tone down your name calling of people you don't know.

Jeff-1541632: obama from 08 has said that he want to extend for 200k or less and 250k for couples.

Quote from Obama in 2008:

WASHINGTON — Democrat Barack Obama says he would delay rescinding President Bush's tax cuts on wealthy Americans if he becomes the next president and the economy is in a recession, suggesting such an increase would further hurt the economy.

Nevertheless, Obama has no plans to extend the Bush tax cuts beyond their expiration date, as Republican John McCain advocates. Instead, Obama wants to push for his promised tax cuts for the middle class, he said in a broadcast interview aired Sunday

Full story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/07/obama-recession-could-del_n_124647.html

i mentioned the Robo calls from the republicans in delware and how the tea party will not soon forget that, its was dirty politics. you did not even repond and give YOUR opinion you just went off.

Sorry to disappoint you, but at this time I have no knowledge of those calls. But politics is not bean-bag, sometimes it gets a little rough.

Joanna they played them on CNN last night. it was not alittle rough is was down right dirty. they accused Christine O’Donnell of not paying her employees and a host of other things that i think are not true. i don't think the tea party will soon forget the back stabbing the republicans gave her yesterday, also there are serious question of the republican party will supply her with the fund for the November election. that seat she is running for, they (MSM) things that seat may be the one that gets republicans the senate back. but the republicans don't think she has a chance to win in a very liberal state like delware. i see the lady in alaska who lost 2 weeks ago is going to make a decision if she is be a write in on the november ballot. the republicans are fighting with the tea party, but i though they were fighting the democrats.

november will be very ineresting for everybody. democrats as well as republicans.

See i have learned something, i did not realise he said that, it does against the Obama i know, but shows that he is not completely out of touch. i have said as much as i don't like it that he may have to extend the cuts for the upper 2% untill the economy gets better.

Jeff: . but the republicans don't think she has a chance to win in a very liberal state like delware. i see the lady in alaska who lost 2 weeks ago is going to make a decision if she is be a write in on the november ballot. the republicans are fighting with the tea party, but i though they were fighting the democrats.

Thanks for the background Jeff. The message there is that entrenched power doesn't give it up easy, whether it be Republican or Democrat. Good to see that maybe those Washington Insiders will now start paying attention to the choices the People are making.

And it looks like things are getting better for Ms. O'Donnell today, she's picking up numerous Republican endorsements, and of course she'll have Palin on stage with her every step of the way. Love her or hate her, Palin's endorsment means something. It's going to be interesting.

Drive-by: What the Republicans need to "court" are some sound prinicples. Thus far, it is lower taxes for the rich. Not much of a slogan. No leadership, no ideas, purge the moderates: That's their plan.

DriveBy;

Very astute post. I am afraid that we have lost our way. In a time where there is so much hate, fear and anger driven by uncertain futures, people will make terrible choices. They are not reacting with any logic but pure emotion. This almost never has a good outcome.

Well said, Drive-by, the GOP now finds itself needing to undo its courting not just the religious right but the liberatarian, the John Bircher extremists they embraced so fully in 2009.

drive-by: Ron- I don't know how they would 'solve the nation's domestic problems', but O'Donell clearly stated that it 'won't be politics as usual'. Sounds really great, but doesn't mean a dammned thing

So true. Obama said the same thing, and now we see it didn't mean anything.

JoAnna1

drive-by: Ron- I don't know how they would 'solve the nation's domestic problems', but O'Donell clearly stated that it 'won't be politics as usual'. Sounds really great, but doesn't mean a dammned thing

So true. Obama said the same thing, and now we see it didn't mean anything.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Except for tea baggers understanding incorecctlly written sign boards and screechy harpies.

Beverly in Chicago: Incidentally, change has come. We have healtlhcare (no other president has accomplished that feat), financial reform, Lilly Ledbetter act amongst so other changing agendas. the world looks at America much better since President Obama

We also have 10% unemployment, 25% underemployment, record home foreclosures, 1.6% GDP, massive new unpaid for entitlements, and world record deficits. And you somehow think that is good news.

Change is coming Liberals. Change you can believe in

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read news other than Fox Noise.

Federal Deficit is DOWN under President Obama by 8%. The U.S. government posted a smaller budget deficit in August compared with the same month last year, helped by rising tax receipts.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-13/budget-deficit-in-u-s-narrows-13-to-90-5-billion-on-rising-tax-receipts.html

That outta be some sweet juice from your blackberry, as you keep dreaming about no change; Jo Anna.

Beverly in Chicago:

Please read news other than Fox Noise.

Federal Deficit is DOWN under President Obama by 8%. The U.S. government posted a smaller budget deficit in August compared with the same month last year, helped by rising tax receipts

As I told Ron of Indiana (Great state Indiana! Great leadership!), I don't watch Fox. Apparently you do though, because you seem to know a lot about it. Try reading something a little more in-depth then what eye candy you see on Fox, MSNBC, and CNN. It can't do anything but help you.

Federal deficit is down - wow - be still my heart. So Obama super-sizes the deficits of what Bush was running, and then a year later, the deficit is "down" a bit, from $1.4 trillion to what, $1.3 trillion? Do you realize how much money Obama and the Democrats are spending? It hasn't been seen at that level in the entire history of mankind! More then likely it's down a bit because the people that are spending it just got tired from writing all the checks, and they all cramped up!

JoAnnaSmith1

Federal deficit is down - wow - be still my heart.

Get a load of this guy's burden. It will give almost anybody a heart attack.

It's just plain insani-ty. Make you peruse it. I'll be waiting for your response.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/gallery/2010/09/tea-partiers-storm-dc-for-second-912-rally.php?img=18

Why do you keep calling people names, liberal would imply open minded,but I sure don't see it here.What makes your opinions superior to others, your so quick to label the same thing you rail against. There is nothing wrong for anyone to voice their opinion as long as they realize it is equal to that of everyone else after all these same people are your neighbors.

All of you people who keep saying the Republicans don't have any idea, can you please explain their idea of rolling everything back to 2008 spending and keeping all of the tax cuts in place? I understand that you don't agree with that idea. But it is still an idea. I guess we'll see in November if the majority agrees with their plan or not.

Great thoughts, newdayDawning. Where does the GOP go now? They have only themselves to blame because they failed to denounce the hateful, extremist views which surfaced in January 2009.

True, Jody. The thing that the extremists miss is that the GOP has fiscal policy exactly backwards. Nations grow strong by a functioning, growing Middle Class, for some reason the GOP believes that it is the rich that make a country great. They may find out they are wrong.

Keep telling yourself whatever it takes to make you comfortable with the fact that the left took the democrat party out into deep water and the middle wants no part of it. Voters swing as they swung to Barry in 2008 and will swing away now that they know the truth about the way that liberals would redistribute anything not bolted to the floor. I didn't get wealthy by begrudging others, I arrived and have stayed due to my own hard work. Cut taxes, cut spending.

That much is certain. When the Republican Party chose to mainstream hate they let loose a powerful demon, one which doesn't willfully do anyone's bidding. It's an all consuming thing, and it'll burn out the GOP and Conservative movement or it'll burn out our society.

JoAnn WV;

Very true. The congress is turning into a circus and we are paying top dollar to watch.

JoAnn WV,

I'm predicting gridlock, the likes of which no one has ever seen, frustration will go off the charts, no matters who wins. I hope I'm wrong ,but these guys are "purists", they do not know what compromise is, it will be seen as betrayal!!

At twelve percent approval any change is good change why complain about it and not want to change it?

John B, absolutely perfect! What a perfect description Dr. Seuss wrote that fits what we're seeing today.

Lets see we have conservative Fox News on cable CNN oh that's right that's liberal CNBC oh yeah Liberal,NBC no that's liberal,ABC,darn another,CBS oh my gosh another what about liberal radio oh yeah nobody listened to it so most were cancelled, reality can be harsh

psst wlee...

"It's a deep dyed evil political plot.
Pretending you're talking to Whos who are not."

Pass it on to the other Wickersham brothers, and all the Wickersham uncles, cousins, and in-laws. Just don't forget that it's the kangaroo who's really calling the shots.

You can feed a man a fish and satisfy him for the night,or you can teach him how to fish and feed him all his life, I'll let you figure out" who"

Actually, wlee, the saying is, "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll wanna use your yacht." Courtesy of Republican Gob Bluth. =D

Anon if you have a point forgive me but I missed it otherwise I stand by my post.

"And now for something completely different" -- Monty Python

No one wants a do nothing Republican party caving into Liberal demands. We are so in debt now, our unborn great grandchildren are inow n debt due to the Obamanation of America. We will hold the newly elected conservatives feet to the fire or they will be out as well if they don't deliver smaller government and restore freedom to the people who want to start new businesses and rebuild America's economy.

And voting Republican is the way to do that? History would suggest otherwise, Ed. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

john b — are you suggesting that with all the political commentary going on and the people strongly voicing their opposition to "no more business as usuall" that those who are elected in November will continue on a path of "business as usual"? Guess we will see if the democrats continue their arrogant ways for it appears that the tea party has sent a message to arrogant republicans.

american, I'm suggesting that the tea party is a creation of the billionaire Koch brothers and other wealthy Republicans ginning up controversy to drive Conservatives to the polls and regain power. Beyond that they'll do what they ALWAYS have done.

Beverly. Did you plan to post the same silly paragraph twice, or did you just forget that you had already posted it once? I guess that's easy enough to do if you are just cutting and pasting someone else's thoughts, and don't have any of your own.

Nash,

Thanks for the information. It pretty much supports what I wrote above but you said it better. Nice post.

Thanks for the kind words US Navy . . . I have learned alot from your posts this year . . . thanks for doing all the legwork that you do . . . I appreciate it!

Great post, Nashville. Republicans claim democrats aren't listening to the people but they are the ones who really turn a deaf ear to the people.

Pat: Great title. When I was a kid a teacher would pass out "dumb dots" and "smart stars" I guess Mitch McConnell had that teacher and he earned a lot of "dumb dots"...because he sure is dumb.

I think you are on to something, Pat. One of the things I always look for in a politician is does he or she seem able to grasp the complicated issues that face us and understand complexities well enough to make a decision. It isn't the only factor, of course, and we can name smart men who didn't make the best Presidents but I think it is an important trait.

The problem is that these people can be motivated to get out and vote and if those on the other side don't do the same, they can still win. When will the people on the middle and the left wake up?

Pat;

Like the title. In watching McConnell yesterday on MSBNC several times, I jsut cannot believe this guy. He still is pushing Tax Cuts forthe richest 2% using arguements that have been busted by both the dems and reps. He said that it was wrong in his opinion to increase taxes in this economic environment so he votes against the small business tax cut. What a hypocrit. He pads the small business numbers with companies from the fortune 100, lobby firms, hedge fund companies, etc and relates them to small businesses that many view as mom and pop, single owner enterprises with less than 100 employees. Just wrong and misleading.

Go to the SBA (Small Business Administration) web site. There is a good definition of what a small business is and the ones McConnell are talking about are not it.

Also these guys deliberatly do not make the distinction between Gross Income and Taxable Income letting the America people draw an invalid assumption.

Less than .3% of those people will pay any additional income taxes under the Obama plan. Bottom line is McConnell wants 98% of the people to pay $830 Billion Dollars so that 2% of the people can get a taxcut of $100,000 on average.

Ronald Reagan and GW Bush. Now they have it with Sarah Palin. None of these three politicians are what could be considered intellectual heavy weights.

The same can be said for talk radio and Fox Propaganda. None of these people with huge ratings are intellectual heavy weights, at all. And while it's nice to think these "talkers" are just your average guy, (which they're not btw, they make millions of dollars), their viewers fail to understand that these people will do the bidding for the Republican Party and only the Republican Party, who have been wrong on every single one of their policies for years and years and years.

They talk about being conservative, but they are not. They are irresponsible. And most important, they know nothing about international affairs, yet are quick to beat the war drum.

They have no love or concern for their fellow Americans whatsoever. They create these messes, and then blame President Obama. It's not right. We should all be working together to help each other. But the pundits on the right aren't interested. They are not interested in progress or getting people back to work or having peace in our time.

They are in fact ignorant. Will their viewers and radio listeners EVER wake up to these facts and think for themselves? Will they EVER deal in reality?

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” Martin Luther King, Jr.

Steeler, I think what we're seeing with these candidates will bring out the Democrats in the Fall, big time.

US Navy, McConnell is full of it. He's so so disingenuous that it borders on crazy. But he is there simply for the rich. Yes, they are using him and he doesn't mind at all.

Mitch McConnell will be gone in two years.

Good morning Ron. I truly truly hate to use the use "dumb"; my parents always taught us never to call a person dumb or stupid. And I try not to. But this is all so baffling to me with these voters. They are NOT angry.

They just don't like intelligent people. Gingrich and his Congress did the same thing with Bill Clinton. Clinton was a threat to the GOP.

“To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful.” Edward R. Murrow

Mitch McConnell is not believable, credible or truthful. The GOP expected these tax cuts to expire at the end of this year. I guess they're getting heat from their rich donors to try and stop it. The Democrats need to put this to the floor, now.

Outstanding thread, everyone. It's not hard to see that the attack on intellect is relentless. That's hard to understand because you SHOULD want the smartest people on your side. All else being equal a smart guy will beat a dumb guy every time, in every venue. So why would the Conservative leaders PREFER dumb?

It's all part of the Conservative war on Reason and proper use of Language. Thinking people can tell the difference between facts and opinion. They can tell the difference between facts and lies, too. Steal the ability of people to reason and express reasonable alternative opinions and you've gained the ability to rule them. Our aspiring wealthy aristocracy doesn't do anything by chance. Sending unarmed opponents to battles of wit is one more tool to establish themselves as our betters.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Terrific post, Pat. People who are easily fooled are those who never look at facts, they hear the words tax cuts and disconnect the wires that would beg to ask questions about what that really means.

This whole rant was the stupidest of the day. Liberals do not have a lock on education. There are just as many Republicans with advanced degrees. Some of you in here show your ignorance daily. I notice a lot of you Liberals tend to think that if you stay up at night and write a frikken 40 line paragraph for posting in a chat room; we will believe you're smart. LOL........

If Liberalism makes you so smart; why is the economy in the situation it is in????? Your smart, reverse it.....Why is the liberal voting base supposedly the lower class???? If your so smart; then show these people how to stack paper....... If you educated liberals are so smart; then why is most of your voting base not finishing high school????? I guess Republicans are kicking them out.....

In regards to the Tea PARTY..most are educated and well to do.

Pat I'll quote a famous Dem. Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country what happened to that party!!!!!

I don't think the Tea Party has classically "liberal" libertarian roots. They are more a development of the modern "pro-capitalist" libertarian writing that began in the 1950s. The origins of libertarianism as a political movement go back to mid 19th century France and are largely socialist and focused on workers rather than capitalists. Those roots were liberal is some senses.

While researching the origins of libertarians yesterday I cam across this on //flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html:

(The original libertarian writers) were highly critical of the concentrations of wealth and power which led to capitalism and economic oppression since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution.

Wow, very scholarly and thoughtful post Jon, kudos to you! Whereas in contrast to the original libertarians the current crop is all ABOUT concentrating wealth and power. That's a completely different line of thinking, isn't it?

Finally a somewhat intelligent discussion. I went to that site. I suppose their definition of "libertarian" and mine are far different.

For your reseach try reading John Locke (1632 – 1704) or John Stuart Mill (1806 – 1873). I suppose you will just do a "wiki' search and trust that. Also try reading Immanuel Kant, although he is a difficult read. Locke's "Second Treatise on Civil Government" is a great read. You will recognize the words "life, liberty and property" in there.

The term "libertarian" is just that. A term, and can be hijacked. Although I know libertarian when I see it.

Classical liberalism is laizze-fair, and the belief that people can do what they want without harming others.

For 20th century thinkers think FA Hayek, Milton Freidman, von Mises and Ayn Rand. The 21st century home for libertarian thought is The Cato Institute.

Have fun :) !!!

Jon and John, you guys don't have a clue do you? You are suffering from rational ignorance. You found a site that fit your thinking. You are not challenging yourself. "Libertarian" is just a term, it can mean "one who eats toast".

Rob, I was just curious what "libertarian" really meant to people other than the rather simple minded Ayn Rand version that circulates in popular culture. The site I listed was just the first that I found that had a broad discussion on the various threads of thought within libertarianism. I did not expect the people who follow the Ron/Rand Paul version to like what is said on the site.

You are correct to say that classic libertarian thought is "laissez-faire". But it is also applied from the workers perspective and should be pointed at both government and big capitalists according to many libertarian philosophies.

Personally, I find the argument that the framers of the constitution were libertarian to be very thin and unsubstantiated. Proto-libertarian thought was one part of their thinking, but mostly in the sense of personal liberty, not as a political movement.

Also, in my searching, I tried to find a country or government that has tried to apply libertarian principles in real time, rather than just theorize. I couldn't find any, although, some people posted that they thought Somalia comes close. I think that is just a weak attempt at humor, though.

One person suggested that libertarians pool their money together, buy a couple of counties somewhere, and put their theories into practice. Then there might be some real world examples of how it works.

Here, try this for your research. Then you'll KNOW.

http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=5385

http://store.cato.org/index.asp?fa=ProductDetails&method=&pid=1441408

Do you have something else. the Cato Institute has a true political agenda and I have never found them reputable or reliable. I recently heard a Cato economist interviewed on the radio and his solution to unemployment was:

If you get laid off, go to your former employer and say that you will do your old job for 50% of your old salary. this is exactly what he said and he was serious. This is not a good ecomonic solution for the worker, but does match the Cato agenda. You see the problem is I've heard two many Cato experts over the years to believe much of what they say.

As I said in my previous post. I am interested in the true roots of libertarianism and how they relate to the Age of Enlightenment. Cato is much more along the lines of the ultra-capitalist highjacking of libertarian that happened in the 30s through 50s. My guess is that the ultra-capitalist trend that resulted in the robber barons would have been very repugnant to the framers of the constitution, just as monarchy was. Previous to the 19th century no one but monarchies had amassed that much wealth, so they can be forgiven for not seeing it coming.

I like the liberty in libertarianism very much, but the Cato version just makes us all slaves to corporations and that doesn't work for me.

Bear in mind with a coporation you have the option to not buy their products. Unlike the "fashionable nonconformists" at the WTO protests who throw garbage cans through the windows of a Nike store while weearing Nike's.

The way to defeat to large corporations is competition. And do you realize that big corporations love it when legislators call for more regulations? You see the big corporations can absorb the new regulations and pass the costs on to the consumer, while the newer smaller competition cannot afford it. And I agree, even Hayek contemplated the issue of big corporations. His solution is the "bracing wind" of competiton. Policy should be set up so that competition is encouraged and built into the system.

I would caution you, don't look to government to solve this problem. With corporations you have the option to not buy their product, with government, you have no option.

Good question. To me it means politicians who want to control individuals, but not corporations. Ones who blame the poor for the country's problems while forgiving every excess of greed. Ones who want to take rights away from people they don't like while wrapping themselves in the Constitution.

Thanks Rich. That's what I thought. Yes, I blame Rove for getting the "right" riled up about gays and the social issue dejour. I must admit I fell prey to that as well, but have since wised up. (Make no mistake the "left does this as well, with global warming, etc.). Both parties play to our emotions.

I agree the GOP likes to stay out of the "boardroom" but get involved in our "bedrooms".

Bear in mind this was Bush's big thing. He was the Presidient who ran on being Mr. Moral. "Prosperity with a purpose" if I remember.

The one area where the Democrats have gone off the deep end has been the belief in laizze-faire.

Classical liberalism, espoused by Locke, Stuart Mill is basically what is now called the libertarian approach, which means, we need laizze-faire, and folks may do whatever they want as long as they don't harm others. The Democrats have embraced the social liberalism, but have abandoned laizze-faire. Meanwhile, the GOP embraces laizze-faire, yet believe in a "social activism". Such is our dilema as voters.

I believe libertarianism is most close to what the Founders had in mind and can "carry water" among the voters. It's laizze-faire, yet "hands off" on so called social issues. LIbertarians even believe in legalizing marijuana.

Cicero

Rob, I'll go a step further and add that there's an agenda within the Conservative Movement as it's currently configured that seeks to establish a heierarchical structure in our society. The wealthy seek to control the government and all aspects of society. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1 Their wealth already gives them power. They use that wealth to by MORE power and MORE wealth. That's why the concept that "money is speech" is universally celebrated by the Conservative leaders even though most Conservatives I know personally are deeply offended and alarmed by this development. It's a very anti-egalitarian, anti-democratic concept yet the people who crow the loudest about defending our Liberty worked to put into place a system for legally buying elections.

I'd say be very cautious of the people who publicly espouse Libertarianism or a brand of Conservatism close to it. A lot of those who are currently riding that stagecoach are actually highwaymen.

John B. is on to something. I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again. If we don't put a stop to it, we are headed for a corporate ogliarchy.

I agree that some may use the words "liberty" and try to sound like libertarians to appeal to certain voters. Yet the truth will be in their actions. Do they act to roll power to the states, do they offer ideas to allow private firms to operate certain functions that government has traditionally done, such as our highway system? Government may set the policy, then private firms to implement it. Do they state, and act to implement policy which gives us more liberty, not less. By liberty, I mean as I stated above, that we may do as we wish, as long as we don't harm our neighbor. One of the best ways to expand and protect liberty is to strengthen private property rights. By this, we as property owners have an obligation to cooperate with our neighbors. Actually, under a true libertarian society, if we fail to cooperate with our neighbor, we harm ourselves.

To understand FA Hayek and John Stuart Mill and John Locke you understand where I am coming from. Ayn Rand's "Objectivism" may also be referenced. Although I reject the objectivist rejection of the metaphysical (i.e. God).

The ideals of libertarianism will appeal to the American Left. My problem with the progressivist movement is they view "the state" as the solution to any problem. They look to government first, instead of last. Their heads are in the right spot, but their minds are not.

Such as this chick from Deleware. I've heard that she is a "social conservative".

The right also means be a christian or be gone.

To me, it means those who want to control the personal lives of others according to their own religious values, they are determined to have a country with one established religion, it means they like the Constitution but only parts of it, it means they think we must all behave as they do and they want to infringe on the rights of others who do not agree with them. They are about being the only power in the country--they believe only they are right and they deserve to be in power--they would prefer a one-party country. They do not care about the size of Government, they only care to control it.

BS and Jody, Yes, this is the GOP as Bush/Rove defined it. On election night of 2008 as we were at campaign HQ licking our wounds I got into a few conversations with "guests" who stated this supposed Republican desire to control peoples lives and create a theocracy. These 2 issues pushed many voters away in 2006 and 2008.

Right now we have flux within the GOP. This is healthy. Although painful over the short-term (joyful to watch if you are a Democrat). Some of these candidates will win, and some will lose. And we also see the gameplan, which MSNBC is helping to promote, that all these "crazy" voters are racist. That "racism explains it all". That these voters don't like Obama and his agenda simply because he's black. This may be true for some, but far from all.

Bottom line, this anger stems from what Bush/Rove did to the GOP. And now we have Obama simply kicking this "big government" into overdrive.

We'll need to see how this shakes out. The Ron Paul faction needs to remain involved.

Rob, there is a school of thought that thinks the framers of the Constitution follow libertarian thought, although it was not yet used in a policital context at the time. But I think that you are mistaken that Ron Paul, et al, are followers of that same strain of libertarianism. They follow more the strain of pro-capitalist libertarianism that comes from popular writers like Ayn Rand and Robert Heinlein, as well as more obscure economists and political thinkers.

A libertarian more in keeping with the constitution's framers might be Noam Chomsky. But my guess is that name is likely to be reagarded with massive disdain by the Tea Party and modern Republicans.

Noam Chomksy? ARE YOU INSANE?!!! To be expected from this echo chamber though.

Chomsky and Buckley had some great entertaining debates though.

Read John Locke or John Stuart Mill and you will understand the idea of freedom and liberty. Or check cato.org. Hell, let's call it "eat toastism" for all I care.

So if the GOP supports corporate control of citizens, then the Democrats support state control of citizens.

I've not met a libertarian yet who has any idea of how a society or economy works. Selfish people whose goal is to not pay any taxes. I get along better with mainstream Republicans.

Private highways? A bad joke. I bet you like private prisons too. If sending people to jail was profitable I wonder what the percentage locked up would get to?

A corporation needs to be kept on a tight rein. It is an entity that has no concience and cannot be put in jail for wrongdoing (and now has the right to buy elections - even foreign owned ones). You can't even fine them out of existence because people will whine about losing jobs. Laizze-faire policies always lead to terrible abuses and a crashed economy in the end.

And anyone over 20 who takes Ayn Rand seriously is just embarassing themselves.

Rob, it isn't an either/or situation. Liberals support a strong middle class able to compete freely with those who have wealth, and a social safety net that allows those who've fallen on hard times to gather themselves up and begin climbing the ladder once again. The Democratic Party supports these aims to a large degree, though it is also a target for takeover by the monied interests.

No, Rob, I am not insane. It seems the original libertarians were socialist libertarians and the original framers of the Constitution came from the Age of Enlightenment. I did predict that you wouldn't like it, but:

From the Wikipedia article on Noam Chomsky:

"He has since become an outspoken political commentator and a dedicated activist; he is a self-declared anarcho-syndicalist^[11] and a libertarian socialist, principles he regards as grounded in the Age of Enlightenment

Rich, I said nothing about private prisons. Only a private highway system where we pay for use. They have tolls in the NE, but they are also taxed. Parts of Europe are moving to this. I understand it's a shock, but that's how debate starts. It's something worth considering. Just because somebody from the the right mentions it does not make it a bad idea. Let's debate the issue.

John B, I don't doubt that the Democrats support a strong middle class. We have the same ends in mind, it's the means where we disagree. Yet, for those who have fallen on hard times, why can't family help, or churches, or communities, or fraternal organizations? Why look to the government first? What happens is government provides a solution and the people think it's taken care of, so they don't volunteer. Liberty? Neighbor helping neighbor? If you read Locke you would know what I'm talking about.

Jon, you use the words "it seems" when taliking about libertarians. You don't know. You've made a rational decision to remain ignorant. This happens with the internet. Instead of challenging your own belief system you seek info which supports your prejudices.

Here is a Wiki on Libertarians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism. And your "libertarian socialist" is in here, in addtion to others. However, I come from the school of Locke and Stuart Mill, and FA Hayek and Milton Friedman and von Mises. Which is classical liberalism.

Good stuff guys. Keep it coming.

Rob, I use "it seems" because the people I refer to are long dead and we can't ask them any questions. We can read their writings and apparently you have, but they wrote a long time ago and it is only conjecture to say where they would stand on current issues or institutions.

Keeping an open mind is hardly choosing to remain ignorant. I read the Wikipedia article on Libertarians yesterday. That is where I first found the liberarian socialist term.

I have no prejudices on the matter, one way or the other, just curiousity.

Tax cuts for the "poor" often translate into the purchase of more liquor, drugs, lottery tickets and other stupid things which explain their being "poor" in the first place.

CU Farley

tax cuts that were given to theTax cuts for the "poor" often translate into the purchase of more liquor, drugs, lottery tickets and other stupid things which explain their being "poor" in the first place.

Tax cuts that were given to the the top 2% brings un-needed wars wars, a failed economy, outsourcing and a Post office boxes in the Cayman islands for dummy corportions.

Thanks Bev. Nice to see someone state the facts. It's funny how the "in your face" facts just seem to be missed by the right-wingers... and FOX. I've been poor, a couple times in my life... and I didn't buy drugs, drinks or lottery. None of my "poor" friends did either. With a household income of over 300k now... my better half and myself seem to understand the need of the tax cuts. An extra few hundred dollars for the poor does not translate into drugs, drink and lottery. It translates into shoes. Clothes. Paying rent on-time or even a better place to live. My household consists of a lawyer and a small business owner. And we are ready to give a little bit more in taxes. Stupid people say stupid things.... thus CU Farley.

Wow CU, great illustration of Conservative "blame the victim" thinking. It's a great divisive tool. I wonder how many people are standing in the unemployment line thinking "I'm not like these other idiots. My misfortune is not my fault, unlike all these OTHER fools"?

The thing is that they are not the victims here. Do you know what its like to be on gov't assistance? It does stifle the ambition to work. Why work when you get free money for doing nothing, and why be responsible when spending money when its not yours? If this isn't true, then other gov't progams like Medicaid and Medicare wouldn't have higher than usual fraud rates.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Wow CU, great illustration of Conservative "blame the victim" thinking. It's a great divisive tool. I wonder how many people are standing in the unemployment line thinking "I'm not like these other idiots. My misfortune is not my fault, unlike all these OTHER fools"?

Great point John,

It's so thoughtless to condescend without knowing all facts. Some people have lost their livelihoods to natural disasters like floods, fire gas pipe and oil well explosions as well as part employment, layoffs or outsourced jobs .

-----------------------------------------------------------

Dave in Redondo Beach

Thanks Bev. Nice to see someone state the facts

You're welcome Dave, Anytime

It so good to read a post where a person realizes not everyone is a lazy, shiftless, slouch, not worthy of a helping hand!!

"If this isn't true, then other gov't progams like Medicaid and Medicare wouldn't have higher than usual fraud rates."

If you do just a minimal amount of research, I think that you will find that Medicaire fraud is commited by huge medical institutions, not individuals. You know, like the Republican that is running for, what is it?, governor in Florida.

Dave in Redondo,

May your small business and lawyer thrive!!! Good on you!!!

Jon, so that makes it better that institutions are the ones committing fraud in these programs? In reality, it doesn't matter. Money that isn't yours that's wasted is the worst kind of waste. Also I did research but can't find your claim. Care to show me where it is?

Yeah... far away! Conservative victory 2010. Remember November.

Oh, don't worry, Tom. They'll be gone all right! :)

It would mostly be the "Blue Dog" Democrats in conservative districts who will lose, so naturally the Democratic Party would tilt more to the left initially. But I doubt that it would tilt as far to the left as the Republican Party now tilts to the right.

"One can already see the Democratic circular firing squad beginning to form. Some will be aiming at the president and the White House staff; others will be gunning for the Congressional leadership."

Charlie Cook, National Journal, Saturday, Sept.11, 2010

Elections have consequences, and the Democratic Party isn't exempt from the paradigm.

And out of our last 8 Presidents how many were Republicans? Oh yeah, 5. How many of the last 5? Oh yeah, 3.

Yes, it's all due to the Left.

Hey Bill, I think you need a hug from a tye-dye granola munching hippy. It's obvious your having a bummer life dude....

Peace...(Hopefully before you have that first coronary.)

In favor of what?

Joe Miller, Rand Paul, Christine O'Donnell, Marco Rubio and the rest of the "Not Ready For Primetime Players" who we might find out are worse than the folks we ousted?

thank your fraud enabler for the uprise. He is the lead "not ready for primetime player."

Status quo is unacceptable. We were promised "change" and I voted for the "change" candidate. Now I'm wishing I had other alternatives because we got the shaft. No more career CONgressman/women. Are the new crop worse than what we have? Well there's only one way to find out. We KNOW we lose if we vote the incumbent back in.

Famous? That's stretching it a bit.

A lot of comments are missing that had nothing to do with KeepN it Real!

Houston: The "establishment" Republican leaders are cynics who are concerned about nothing but keeping their corporate clients happy and keeping themselves in their nice cushy jobs.

Which totally explains why the Tea Party is against corporate bailouts.

When they decided to pander to the Tea Party nutcakes

So now anyone that believes in limited government and fiscal restraint is described as a "nutcake". Well, I guess to a liberal and an Obama supporter, those qualities would be very foreign and bizarre to them.

Keep the lies coming Libs. It is just so easy to swat them away.

JoAnnaSmith

So now anyone that believes in limited government and fiscal restraint is described as a "nutcake". Well, I guess to a liberal and an Obama supporter, those qualities would be very foreign and bizarre to them.

This goes beyond just politics and ideology. Carl Paladino, the winner of the Republican Party nomination for New York governor, is in trouble for sending nasty racist and pornographic email. If he were already governor, other members of his party would be suggesting that maybe he should resign. Anyone who would vote for him is a nutcake. The same goes for the Democratic Senate candidate in N. Carolina, who is also crazy. But the fruitcake crop seems a lot smaller in the Democratic Party this year than in the Republican Party.

Houston: This goes beyond just politics and ideology. Carl Paladino, the winner of the Republican Party nomination for New York governor, is in trouble for sending nasty racist and pornographic email.

Well that's Carl Paladino's problem, and has nothing to do with the politics of the Tea Party. And I think you mean the Dem candidate from South Carolina.

So, speaking of nutcakes, what do you think about New York voters voting overwhelmingly voting for Charles Rangel? Seems all the evidence of corruption against him doesn't matter much to those nutcakes.

JoAnna- can you PLEASE try to reply to a comment without reverting to "yeah, but YOU guys..."? Rangle is not the topic of the post by Houston. I think Rangle stinks, but he's not the topic this morning.....

Charlie Rangel seems to fit into the category of politicians who "went to Washington to do good, but stayed to do well." Lots of pols in both parties fall victim of the illusion that they're so good, they deserve special perks and privileges that eventually cross the line into violations of ethics rules or even the law. Same goes for Maxine Waters.

People vote for Charlie Rangel because he's been an effective representative of his community. Personally, I would have voted for his opponent, because he's clearly been in Washington too long. But Rangel is not crazy. He is not a whacko blathering dangerous nonsense about "2nd Amendment remedies" like Sharron Angle, or a purveyor of porn emails like Carl Paladino, or a cypher who had trouble holding down a real job like O'Donnell and paid herself a salary with her campaign funds.

It's not that Democratic voters and traditional Republican voters don't nominate the occasional oddballs and jokers, but the Tea Partiers just don't seem to care at all how awful a human being the person is that they're voting for as long as he or she mouths the politically correct talking points.

It's a true dilema, Dee. Either they support her, and loese even more, or denounce her, and shoot themselves in the foot. Like I said in an earlier post- kind of hard to feel sorry for 'em, though.

Drive-By

The consensus seems to be that they have to "embrace" her (for lack of a better term) since she's all they have at this point. Has to be pretty embarrassing. And trust me, I don't feel sorry for them in the least either!

What I don't get is that her critics use personal attacks against her and not on policy. If she was easily defeatable they would've attacked her on policy. But you have an idiot like Rachel Maddow showing some MTV abstinence video of her. When I saw that I thought "Is that it?". It was a pathetic attack. If anyone is embarrassing it's her opposition- weak Republicans and Progressives alike.

I don't know how much help Rachel Maddow will have to give. 49% of Delaware voters already believe O'Donnell is unfit to hold public office. http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/09/15/democrat-chris-coons-starts-with-16-point-lead-over-christine-o/

Dee, what planet do you live on? Is this the first time the party's choice didn't make it? In Pennsylvania, all those who supported Hillary over Barack fell in line behind Barack. All the established Dems who supported Arlen Specter have fallen in line behind Joe Sestak, including Fast Eddie (Governor Edward Rendell) and Barack (President Barack Hussein Obama). So, why will the Delaware situation be so surprising?

Deb....right on the mark. Truly, what will it take to get real change? Obama really sold me on his hope, but he is as bad if not worse than W. Unbelievable.

It is a mistake to believe that the Rand Paul, Sharron Angle, Christine O'Donnell, and friends would fall in line. They have an extremist view of Government and intend to fight to make it their way. They might be few in the beginning but they represent a dangerous ideology. People ignored other evils in the world thinking it would go away.

Jody of iowa - funny when other evils were ignored the world ended up in a handbasket, but those that had the strength and determination to continue on, changed the world for the better. I, myself am hoping, regardless of the election outcome in November, that America is not too late in being flushed down the toilet by the greedy politicians and spin dr's of both parties.