Great post, Ron. Unfortunately, all too true.

On Countdown last night, Keith Olbermann interviewed two religious leaders in Memphis, TN, Pastor Steve Stone of Heartsong Church and Dr. Bashar Shala of the Memphis Islamic Center.

The Memphis Islamic Center is building next to Heartsong Church. Pastor Stone's congregation put up a large sign saying that Heartsong Church WELCOMES the Memphis Islamic Center to the neighborhood. In listening to these two men of different faiths talk, we see tolerance, love of faith, and respect for each other. This is what America is all about--religious freedom and tolerance of others, respecting our differences. Both said their congregations are getting to know each other.

We are a diverse country with many beliefs, many races. Getting to know each other is the answer to understanding our differences. Getting to know each other is a first step. Heartsong Church and the Memphis Islamic Center are to be commended for their courage in taking that step.

Regarding Pastor Jones, the FL minister who plans to burn the Koran because of Islamic radicals--Pastor Stone said that is like the pot calling the kettle black. Well said, Pastor Stone!

Good work Ron, the Preacher Man has gone over his minutes of fame, but the media keep on pumping out the sound bytes and the interview videos.

When Doves Cry;

I expressed my thoughts Tuesday on what I thought of Pastor Terry Jones of the ‘Dove World Outreach Center’ and was NOT going to comment on this charlatan any further…

Having said that, it has now become painfully obvious that this is NOT about calling attention to Muslim extremists…

It is nothing more than a pathetic attempt by a right wing nut job to politicize the tragedy of 911.

Last week when asked if there was one person who’s opinion he respected he replied after a long pause – President George W. Bush…

NOW Pastor Jones is telling USA Today that he might call off the event if he heard from the President Obama and or the White House…

I wonder WHY that is…???

What we have here is a charlatan who is using this event as a recruiting tool. He is gambling that while there may some damage to the United States and it’s allies as a result of the Quran Burning he is expecting to add hundreds to the ranks of his fledgling flock of ‘doves’ because that part of Florida is home to it’s share of intolerant bigots.

Newt Gingrich should be proud of himself. He has given comfort to the likes of “Pastor” Jones with the incendiary comments he made about the non-mosque at Ground Zero.

Go Newt! Hope we don’t lose too many troops as a result of the Quran Burning.

Ron:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2010/09/obama_cleveland_jobs_speech_tr.html

The following several paragraphs were copied from the transcript of President Obama’s Speech yesterday in Ohio. His words are in “bold-italic”. The whole document may be viewed at the URL listed above.

“Yes, our families believed in the American values of self-reliance and individual responsibility, and they instilled those values in their children. But they also believed in a country that rewards responsibility. A country that rewards hard work. A country built upon the promise of opportunity and upward mobility.”.

”They believed in an America that gave my grandfather the chance to go to college because of the GI Bill. An America that gave my grandparents the chance to buy a home because of the Federal Housing Authority. An America that gave their children and grandchildren the chance to fulfill our dreams thanks to college loans and college scholarships”.

“I have a different vision for the future. I've never believed that government has all the answers to our problems. I've never believed that government's role is to create jobs or prosperity. I believe it's the drive and ingenuity of our entrepreneurs, the skill and dedication of our workers, that has made us the wealthiest nation on Earth. I believe it's the private sector that must be the main engine of our recovery”.

.”I believe government should be lean, it should be efficient, and it should leave people free to make the choices they think are best for themselves and their families, so long as those choices don't hurt others”.

”But in the words of the first Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, I also believe that government should do for the people what they cannot do better for themselves”.

“We see a future where we invest in American innovation and American ingenuity; where we export more goods so we create more jobs here at home; where we make it easier to start a business or patent an invention; where we build a homegrown, clean energy industry - because I don't want to see new solar panels or electric cars or advanced batteries manufactured in Europe or Asia. I want to see them made right here in America, by American workers”.

”We see an America where every citizen has the skills and training to compete with any worker in the world. That's why we've set a goal to once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world by 2020. That's why we're revitalizing our community colleges, and reforming our education system based on what works for our children - not what perpetuates the status quo”.

The above represents what I and many democrats believe in. A country that rewards hard work, responsibility and gives all people the opportunity for the American Dream, not just the select few. A country that allows our children to surpass our own triumphs. A country where a good education is available to all. A country that prides being number 1 in the world on Education, Science, Technology etc. A World Leader for the rights of all people not just a few.

Small Businesses create 75% of all jobs in the US today. That is why the democrats are trying to get job bills passed I the Senate. Bills that provide much needed capital for small businesses and tax cuts. Bills that promote R&D for companies to create new products, new technologies and new opportunities for economic growth. A Bill that provides for the rebuilding of or crumbling infrastructure of roads, railways, runways, high speed internet etc. A bill that closes the loopholes that provide Big Business incentives to place jobs overseas instead of keeping those jobs here. Bills that increase regulations to avoid the financial disaster we now have from happening again, to stop Big Businesses from putting greed over the safety of its employees. Not happening because the party across the aisle is obstructing every bill that has those components in it, even though much of them they support in their day to day rhetoric. They continue to vote no to destroy the middle class and then put the blame on President Obama. These are the people that said HCR was going to be his Waterloo.

You can read the whole document as instructed above. What I want the Republican Party to tell me is;

- How are the Republicans going to lower the deficit, what Federal Programs are you going to cut?

- How are the Republicans going to create Jobs?

- How are the Republicans going to help the Middle Class?

- What are you going to do to improve Education?

- What is your mission / vision for this country now and the future?

Come November you will be called on to vote for the above or go back to the previous agenda of the last administration that has created the vast majority of our economic problems today. The choice is yours, use your vote wisely.

WHO IS PASTOR TERRY JONES?

This article was copied from CBSNews Investigates

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015763-10391695.html

Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center, September 7, 2010.

Pastor Terry Jones was little known outside Gainesville, Florida until his Koran burning plan went international with groups from the VFW to the State Department protesting, and General David Petraeus warning that the images of burning the Quran could endanger U.S. troops.

But a deposition obtained by CBS News from a court case last month raises question about how much Pastor Jones even knows about his controversial cause.

According to the deposition, Jones and his wife learned much of what they know about Sharia Law - the sacred law of the Muslim religion - by watching videos on YouTube.

"Do you know where Sharia law came from?" Jones is asked.

"Not really, no," he replies, "I think there's experts that say it came from the old Mosaic law. But no."

Attorneys also asked Jones how many Muslims he knows personally.

"I don't think I know any personally," he says, "I haven't interviewed any." Jones also says he has not attended any interfaith discussions and that he believes that such discussions are part of "our problem."

Dove World Outreach Center: Where Does the Money Go?

When asked if his church, Dove World Outreach Center has a mission statement, Jones said that it did but when questioned further, Jones told the attorney he did not know what the mission statement was.

Jones refers to himself as "Doctor," and says in the deposition he was awarded an honorary doctorate of theology degree from the California Graduate School of Theology in Rosemead, CA in 1983. The school, which is unaccredited, was unable to immediately confirm whether or not it awarded Jones the degree.

In his deposition, Jones acknowledged that his congregation has decreased in recent years, telling attorneys that he currently has a congregation of about 50 people - whereas he had 100 people when his congregation was at its largest.

"I think mainly just because the things we're involved in are just really way too hot for your normal Christian and your normal person."

This excerpt from www.thinkprogress.com yesterday.

Before Rev. Terry Jones was being condemned by the White House and military commanders in Afghanistan for his planned “International Burn a Quran Day,” he was a pastor at an evangelical church he founded in the 1980s in Cologne, Germany. Jones grew the congregation of the Christian Community of Cologne to as many as 1,000 members, but his radical, hate-filled preaching’s eventually got him expelled from the church. According to the German magazine Der Spiegel, Jones ruled the church like a tyrant, even as his sermons became increasingly Islamaphobic and hateful, prompting his congregation to kick Jones and his wife out of the church last year:

Why is the media even reporting on this guy? It appears that Pastor Jones is a Bigot and Racist and the media is fostering his rhetoric by putting him in the limelight. I do not see any purpose in giving this clown any media coverage at all. In fact by making this a news worthy item you may have put Americans in harm’s way.

Way to go MSM.

If a specific request from General Petreus isn't enough for this guy to back down, what would do it? I agree with you, Ron--this whole story was catnip for the media with its 24/7 news cycle. Trying to find a silver lining in this, suppose this guy had gone ahead with the burning and either the media heard about it (all it would take is 1 local news outlet) or someone filmed it & put it on You Tube. There would still have been an outcry against the US in the Muslim world. This way, at least some of our leaders are speaking out publicly against this ahead of time. I don't expect this to change the minds of any extremist Muslims but perhaps there will be some coverage of the fact that many in the US condemn this act. Of course, this would be helped if more leaders spoke out (I mean you, Republicans) but at least there is some outcry.

I am glad to see this pastor getting attention. The worst thing we can do in this country is to ignore something like this, like those in the GOP would like us to do.

This is when America is at her best. When we fight back and say no, this behavior is unacceptable. Keith had such a dignified segment last night with the story out of Tennessee. It just made me smile. It seems the big mouths in this country get all the attention, so this story Keith talked about kind of stopped me in my tracks for a moment. Very well done. It made me remember why I love this country and the good people who try to make a difference.

Hey, Ron, red letter day-I absolutely, one hundred per cent agree with you on the media culpability in this 'book burning' story. This half/wit, (who seems to have some, er, 'property rights' issues-as in, he was thrown out of the 'church' he established in Germany for pilfering funds), could have had his little bonfire, and no one would have been the wiser. It was the media that elevated this story to frontpage news. Seems that the media also needs to learn the lesson all of our mothers' taught us: just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD.

Here's another little gem to make you grin: Obama was right to speak out against it. He actually had no other choice in this matter.

On another note-I learned something highly interesting about the HCR disaster last night. First, a little background: anyone who has ever signed a lease, or any other contract, has seen a little clause that states that, if any part of the contract is found to be in violation of applicable law, it will have no effect on the rest of the contract. This, known as a severance clause, protects both parties from the caprices of legal findings. So if, for example, your lease states that you may not put up wallpaper, and someone challenges that in court and wins, it only pertains to your putting up wallpaper. Your landlord cannot use it as an excuse to throw you out of your home because his brother-in-law wants to move in. Likewise, you cannot walk out of your lease as a result of the finding, because you found a cheaper place to live after you signed the lease.

Well, in their rush and desire to cram through HCR, guess what they forgot to include? That's right-a severance clause. Which means, if Virginia, which has already won one round against the government on this issue, wins in the Supreme Court, and mandates are found to be unconstitutional, the whole works goes out the door.

Thank goodness.

Pat;

Very good point. But by making this a national media issue we may have opened a can of worms. Jones is a small man trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. The media has granted his wish. I do not know the correct answer to this. Do we ignore him? Do we point him on national TV, Internet and blogs? I do not know, but I am afraid that all this attention here is going to funnel over to our troops and that is not good. I agree that this type of behavior needs to be called and and exposed for the bigotry and racism that it represents. Funny that it seems one party is more vocal about the wrong this burning represents while the other side just ignores it. What does that tell us????

good post Ron

and really just another sick thing coming from our media

"shock and awe! shock and awe!"

damned parrots

Fellow Travelers:

We are told that the majority of the Muslim world is functionally illiterate. If that is true, most of them have never read the Koran - just like Terry Jones. They take their instruction and information from their religious leaders - who are people like Terry Jones.

Over the years - and having been raised in the Lutheran cult - I have, on numerous occasion, asked "Christians" whether they have read the Bible. Golly gee, the vast majority of them have not read it. They are spoon-fed verses - by definition, out of context - and they take their instruction and information from their religious leaders - who are like Terry Jones.

Jews, whose God is documented in the Old Testament is the God of the Hebrew, Abraham. It seems Abraham's God is descended from an Egyptian conception of a deity. Now, I'm summarizing here. The Jewish God, who can be rather high-handed and downright mean on occasion, morphed into a pretty nice guy in the New Testament according to a Jew - who may or may not have existed - named Jesus H. Christ. (I've never seen the Jesus H. Christ appellation in the Bible, but I've heard it yelled out from time to time.) Then, along comes a fellow named Muhammed, who likes this God idea and gives his followers Allah.

It's all rather confusing, but in the final analysis, it's the same God. Now, all that's a bit too much for me, and I have an almost perfect I.Q. - 99 ya know. So, I just chucked it all and decided to go the atheist route.

This whole thing just seems downright insane to me. Amen.

i noticed a small construction trailer that said International Burn The Koran Day behind Pastor Terry Jones, I suggest he takes this stunt on the road, say Pakistan, Egypt, Afghanistan,or Iraq!

He's pretty brave hiding behind our soldiers, who protect his right to be an dangerous idiot!

I'll buy this guy a one way ticket to these places if he wants to go International!!!!

Great post U.S. Navy. Right on the button, excellent insight, understanding and thought. Always enjoy your posts.

David Walker:

The Jewish God, who can be rather high-handed and downright mean on occasion, morphed into a pretty nice guy in the New Testament

According to Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), this conversion happened after "God got religion." One of Clemens' many funny, ironic, and insightful quips about the tragicomedy that is the human race.

Dr No Jo; There you go agreeing with me and then spoiling it with nonsense. I'll let you in on a little secret. Health care Law is here to stay. 30 million American will be able to get health care, just like senior citizens now receive.

STS

Good quote Houston!

There isn't anyone here, or anyone in their right mind who supports this travesty outside of the guy doing it and his intrepid little band of followers. While it might feel good to jump up on your soapbox and voice your outrage, the attention devoted here, which is far too much, simply reflects the media feeding-frenzy that many are criticizing...

Ron-not according to the people who have read, and are challenging, HCR. I hesitate to call it a 'law', because, well, it isn't.

The Senate bill, I understand, was not meant to become law; it was designed to get 60 votes, and then get reconciled to the House bill in the usual way of doing business in the capital.

Well, along comes Scott Brown, whom nobody, (including me) thought had a snowball's chance of winning the Massachusetts special. That led to a scramble.

As you recall, the House passed the Senate BILL, and the Senate promised revisions to the BILL; thus, what we have is a bill.

Which contains no severance clause.

Therefore, if Virginia, or any of the other states, prevail in finding one part of the BILL unconstitutional, the whole ball of wax melts.

My money's on the mandate-which the Obama administration insists in NOT a tax, unless it is in moving papers before the court-then, it IS a tax. Convoluted argument, to say the least.

The question is-did they not include a severance clause as a backdoor way to escape from the wrath of the American electorate, or was it inadvertent because of the rush job to cram it down our throats?

Ron,

Agree with the media fanning the flames on this one, however, your remark about Republican leaders not speaking out against it is wrong. Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Mitt Romney, Ann Coulter, etc., have all spoken against it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39074573/ns/politics-white_house/

If you click on the link above, at the bottom of the article there is a little "Explainer" to read what everybody from Obama to Palin are saying about it.

Cult: Point well taken: We can see why Romney would oppose as he would not want the burning of the Book of Mormon. As far as Coulter, Beck, and Palin: Are they really the leaders of the Republican Party? I mean really?

>As you recall, the House passed the Senate BILL, and the Senate promised revisions to the BILL; thus, what we have is a bill.

The revisions were passed, the president signed it, so it is therefore a law. Did you miss that episode of Schoolhouse Rock? They are on DVD now if you need a refresher.

>The question is-did they not include a severance clause as a backdoor way to escape from the wrath of the American electorate, or was it inadvertent because of the rush job to cram it down our throats?

The answer is that laws do not require such clauses.

It is so weird that people are upset at making healthcare more available and affordable. Even more so from Republicans who don't remember that this is pretty much their plan from the 90s (including the so-called individual mandate). This is only about politics and which side you root for.

The attention this poor deluded minister is receiving is sunlight on evil. The best disinfectant in the world is pure sunlight. It causes cockroaches to scurry into dark corners. What may be difficult for the Muslim world to understand is that our Constitution allows for stupid people to do stupid things. They must also be scratching their heads this: First, Americans are outraged that a Muslim Community Center is scheduled to be opened near Ground Zero. Now, we are outraged that a "minister" is threatening to burn a Qua'ran.

Thank you Rich: You are right that laws do not require such a clause. Some are pleased that 30 million Americans will now have healthcare benefits, others want it only for their own family.

As far as Coulter, Beck, and Palin: Are they really the leaders of the Republican Party? I mean really?

Point well taken!

David Walker

We are told that the majority of the Muslim world is functionally illiterate. If that is true, most of them have never read the Koran - just like Terry Jones. They take their instruction and information from their religious leaders - who are people like Terry Jones.

Your post is very revealing. Many people in regards to religion and the media simply regurgitate therefore very little room is left for do not reading or research ; especially FOX viewers. Rather than realizing they are repeating formed opinion or sensationalism they would much rather accept whatever is heard as Gospel because it’s their favorite source of information.

In many instances it happens to be FOX because Fox is pushing an anti-Obama Agenda; even if the sun doesn't shine it's President Obama's fault. Never before in my life have I seen a news outlet than regurgitates 24/7 the same agenda of hate and bigotry such as Fox has devolved into. I will give MSNBC the credit of doing a half and half with their Joe Scarbough, Pat Buchanan, Dylan Ratigan, and others in the early morning and mid day. In the evening we have Chris (sometimes depending on the which way his leg is swinging), Rachel and Keith.

Like you I do not believe there is a supreme being in the sky controlling our destinies. I had to go through much anguish, many religions and soul searching to reach that conclusion. History, If it is not rewritten can provide many of the fill the blank questions for me. Which brings me back to FOX.

Yesterday, I fell on my remote and Glenn Beck popped up on the scene. What really struck my attention is Glenn is doing "Back to School re- freshener course to teens" portraying unions, Progressives, FDR., Truman as racist.

Hello, That's not a secret American has had a history of "Racism: since the Mayflower. Why didn't Glenn talk about the accomplishments of the unions progressives and those 2 President?s

FOX Noise has been ubiquitous with bigotry, fear mongering, hate, and here lately anti-Muslim sentiments. You know something? I saw all of this coming for months about on Hannity’s show. When Hannity started bringing 9-11 survivors and family members of the victims on his program, Hannity was trying to influence these people into opposition. Just like he does with every guest who appears on his show, His favorite question to hi s guest is—“Don’t you think President Obama is a radical? Hannity’s job is to push hate and bigoted, rhetoric. I’m surprised his back isn’t soar from carrying the water.

Rich,

She doesn’t believe it is law because she doesn’t believe it should apply to her.

On the court fight - This is a case where they are correct with both the claim and the way they are fighting it in court.

If you purchase health insurance there is no penalty aka tax. The President’s claim is true.

When the DOJ fights it in court it will be called a tax because the way it is controlled by the Department of Treasury / IRS.

I posted this on another stroy but it applies to this thread, so here it is again.

If this Koran burning puts our troops in danger and is used as a recruiting tool by our enemies, wouldn't that qualify as providing aid and comfort to our enemies? Isn't that the definition of treason? Maybe an FBI agent should pay a quiet visit to this gnat brained pastor. The agent should tell him that he could go ahead and burn the Koran, as is his First Amendment right but if any of our enemy uses those images as a recruiting tool, if any enemy of the US tells us his motivation was this Koran burning, the pastor will be arrested and tried for treason. No need for the President or Pentagon to lower themselves to talk to this criminal.

And yes, I think the same standard should apply for those who published the Abu Gaib pictures. The military should definitely have been held accountable and I do not think the punishments went high enough (Cheney and his minions should have been prosecuted) but releasing the pictures the way they were was wrong. Remember when the right wing was crying 'treason' for the release of the pictures? They need to step up and do the same thing now.

In this age of terrorism, I don't believe he has the right to do this. This should be treated as a homeland security matter if it puts our soldiers lives, or the lives of others in this country at risk and in danger. No, he does not have a right to add fuel to the flames of a holy war that is being waged against us by terrorist who will use this as an excuse to ramp up. Bin Laden is winning if we allow this religious hatred and fear to continue to divide us.

Put his butt in Gitmo for a few days, maybe that'll change his mind.

We sit on our thumbs and do nothing, ever. I remember the moral arguments years ago over an incident where newspeople watched a man douse himself in gasoline, light a match, throw it on himself and burn himself to death. What is the moral implication in this? Are we hear to just watch? Or should we take some action when we see heinous acts against self and others?

We have also sat around for the last 2 years (and the media is the worst perpetrator of this) and listened to lies, distortions, and what I consider treasonous statements about our government and our President. The media has allowed that to continue without a word, until the last couple weeks, when they are ....oh so surprised....that there may be racism and hatred and dishonorable and divisive speech coming from the right.....oh so surprised!

I hope we do not sit around in November and allow the narrative and the agenda to be set by the dopes of nope. Put on your "working man" shoes and get out there!

Every time I see that man on the news I just want to cry. I do not understand why he cannot see (or chooses not to see) how hateful his behavior is. Even when General Petraeus says this is putting the troops in more harm's way and is undermining their mission, he just keeps right on going. How a pastor can be so hateful just defies logic. I have often teased my fellow Floridians that we are something unto ourselves (especially South Florida) because the sun has baked our brains, but this is just too much to bear. Shame on that man.

How about our President!!!!!!

No Joe,

Give it up. You are arguing with idiots. Even when the truth is right in front of them they still can’t get it. They can toot their horns about 30 million people now having insurance and forget about the 200 million who will have to pay more to cover them. They talk about lowering the cost of heath care and this bill does nothing to do that. These first read regulars have their heads in the sand and are too dumb to pull them out. But for your reading pleasure Joe here is a story that was in yesterdays Wall Street Journal. Of course those of us with any intelligence knew this already.

Health Outlays Still Seen Rising

Matthew, Houston, TX:

Your question regarding treason goes to the very heart of this quandary in which America - and our allies - find ourselves.

It is absolutely essential to understand that we are not at war, and have not been at war since the end of WWII. How does one commit treason when there is no legally defined enemy? However odious the actions of Terry Jones, proving a causal link to killing American soldiers would be incredibly difficult. Remember also, even the utterly stupid have a First Amendment right to speech and religion, free of government interference.

Al-Qaeda is not the military arm of a nation. The Taliban is not the military arm of a nation. To put it bluntly, they are nothing more than a rag-tag bunch of punks with very powerful weapons. They are terrorists, plain and simple. That they claim to operate under the tenets of Islam does not make them Muslim, any more than a drunk driver, who kills a family in a crash is a Christian, because he goes to church on Sunday. He is a terrorist, plain and simple.

I cannot stress strongly enough that we are not at war. From a longer perspective - one that steps outside the American experience - we would see that there are terrorists everywhere. Drunk drivers, gangsters, drug cartel members, all fill the bill nicely. But somehow we don't see Basque separatists as terrorists. We don't put that label on the I.R.A. This kind of killing goes on across the globe all outside the aegis of a "nation".

Islam does not have the equivalent of a Pope. There is no central authority, however a bit of research will show you that the majority of Islam would be perfectly satisfied to see the "Muslim" extremists and terrorists removed from the scene. That is not to say that there are not recruiting efforts in mosques in this country. There are, and some have been successful. However, Christianity does not exactly have lily-white hands in this regard. Look at Terry Jones. This guy is a terrorist.

And this is where this whole thing has gone wrong. This is not a war in the classic sense. This is a fight against ongoing terrorism everywhere. It is a police issue. Our military intervention in Muslim countries has had the opposite effect of what we need. Rather than helping local police authorities to act against local threats, our ham-handedness, and our we-know-what's-best-for-you attitude has had the effect of driving our foes together and actually made us less safe.

But I digress. Terry Jones is a disgusting, ignorant clown who seeks publicity and face time on a national stage. Sadly, and to what should be their everlasting shame, the media are complicit.

Bob,

he increase of 1% to 9% is a “one time” cost and affects only a small percentage of all policies. Also from the article you linked the graphs show a decrease in the cost of Medicare and less out of pocket costs for everyone and only a slight increase Medicaid and Private Insurance Plans. It was well known more than a year ago that without a public option that HC costs could not be controlled but overall cost would not rise as fast due to more people in the pool.

Please poke holes in any of this data.

The Congressional Budget Office [CBO] is out with a letter in August saying that while the health care law could “reduce the projected budget deficit by $30 billion over the next 10 years,” repealing it would increase the deficit by an estimated $455 billion.

That’s a swing of nearly half a trillion dollars.

Despite the GOP’s doomsday predictions about the health care law dramatically increasing health care costs, a new report from the Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) predicts health spending will grow only “slightly faster than projected under prior law – at an annual rate of 6.3 percent, rather than 6.1 percent” — a fairly small price to pay for providing insurance coverage to 32.5 million more Americans. By 2019, health spending will “increase as a share of the economy by only 0.3 percentage points, to 19.6 percent of GDP,” the government found. (More details at the link below)

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/09/09/cms-new-report/

The Fallacy Of Insurers Hiking Premiums And Blaming It On The Health Care Law

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/09/08/insurers-profits/

Dennis,

All I did was post an article that was in yesterdays WSJ and the bottom line is that this bill does nothing to lower the cost of care. GET IT!

And I'll believe what I read on the WSJ long before I believe articles from some site called The Wonk Room. Those writers are probably reporters fired from fox, msnbc or first read.

"Clearly Republican leaders did not want to talk about it. When questioned, they did not want to offend the right-wing conservatives with an election just two months away. They didn’t seem to mind that it is pouring gasoline on the fire of hatred. They didn’t want to make the connection that General Petraeus is right. They did not want to condemn this Reverend Terry Jones."

This is the opposite of what ive seen, heard, and read. Do you have any source since everyone is claiming its truth? I have not seen 1 person dodge the question when asked or approve of what he is doing. So im just curious where you saw this, as everything - even a recent article on MSNBC is disputing these 'truths'.

I'm back internet! Did you miss me? Don't cry, internet! It's ok. I won't ever leave you again.

*EDIT* Dennis beat me to it. AGAIN. =D

Bob said:

Give it up. You are arguing with idiots. Even when the truth is right in front of them they still can’t get it. They can toot their horns about 30 million people now having insurance and forget about the 200 million who will have to pay more to cover them. They talk about lowering the cost of heath care and this bill does nothing to do that. These first read regulars have their heads in the sand and are too dumb to pull them out. But for your reading pleasure Joe here is a story that was in yesterdays Wall Street Journal. Of course those of us with any intelligence knew this already.

The argument, and I'm sure you know this already but would prefer to call your intellectual opponents idiots instead, is that the growth of costs will be slowed by new taxes, regulations, and yes, the mandate that, depending on your point of view, extends care or unjustly forces consumers to purchase it. Costs have been going up, just as credit card rates/rules changed before the credit card bill went in to effect this year.

During all of the outrage over insurance rates going up earlier this year (as much as 69% for some customers out here in CA), a memo was leaked from... Anthem, I believe, stating that these increases which were supposedly necessary to keep pace with costs would bring profitability back to 5-7% in the state. There are many problems with our HC system, and I don't pretend to believe that this bill comes close to addressing all of them. However, those that argue for it do have a legitimate case.

Since we're not going to a Medicare for all system (which I am a strong proponent of), I would have liked to see guidelines forcing insurance companies and hospitals to the table to negotiate rates every so often. Because HC is such an inelastic good, there is little incentive to do more than squeeze the consumers. I would have also liked to see portability of options across state lines, though I can't say that would have really helped.

Well said Anon

Bob,

Your normal low information reply. I read what you link but you can’t read what I link just call it names. Then you call the liberal posters on this site a name – which is offensive but you seem not to care about respecting the opinion of others so how can anyone give your opinion any respect?

STS

Bobo

I saw Boehner's response and it wasn't an unqualified condemnation of the idiot from Florida. It was pretty soft.

I still believe it's true that not too amny of the republicans have spoken out against this guy with any force. Just curious what did Michelle Bachmann have to say?

Dennis,

What the hell makes you think I didn't read your links? I have never heard of The Wonk Room and therefor will not put any stock in what they post on their site.

Christ you you people are narrow minded. Nobody is saying that heath care reform wasn't needed. The fact is, it will not lower the cost like the great President stated over and over and over again. More broken promises! These morons pushed it through so fast they didn't have time to think it all the way through. Without a public option it should have never passed.

Anon,

a memo was leaked from... Anthem, I believe, stating that these increases which were supposedly necessary to keep pace with costs would bring profitability back to 5-7% in the state.

Key point in that statem,,,,, I believe. But thanks for nothing.

Bob, I very much appreciate your polite response of, "thanks for nothing."

http://www.truth-out.org/anthem-blue-cross-statement-justifying-rate-hike-contradicted-by-internal-documents57008

I know, It's truth-out, but it's what appeared at the top of my first google search. Side note - the new Google is awesome.

Anyway, the point was not to poke holes in your argument. Insurance companies are for profit, and currently have the right to operate in ways that benefit their shareholders. It does highlight my point that insurance companies do little to nothing to keep costs in check in their negotiations with hospitals. In addition it shows that a public option, at a minimum, would be the way to go considering these companies will provided the minimum level of services that are required of them - providing 70 cents on the dollar of medical care.

To Pat from Boston: Some members of the GOP will denounce Reverend Jones, but not until after the elections, so they will denounce it a couple months after it took place instead of in time to prevent it. They can't afford to tone down any of that anger and hate they are banking on to get the crazies out to vote for them.

This is not a lot different from the lesson they learned from 9/11. The real value politically was after the tragedy which they are still using to this day for their own gains. In hindsight, I doubt the GOP would have even tried to stop it if they knew it was coming, since they've gotten so much mileage out of it. Preventing it would have brought the country together and they need it divided to hope to regain power. What are 3000 lives worth? ...probably a lot less than the what elections cost to the GOP since the right wingers constantly exploit those poor victims and their families to no end.

If people really want to honor the victims of 9/11, they should refuse to vote for anyone who exploits it for personal or political gain, but then how will the GOP gain those all those seats they want?. Not by playing fair and giving respect to the fallen and their families.

In this day and age, with the internet and social media, this story would have gotten out even if the commercial media ignored it completely.

I enjoyed the WSJ article on health care. I knew that the right wing would be touting it all day. But, I have a question....has there been a year when insurance rates HAVEN'T gone up? Not in our neck of the woods...yours?

When I first started to read this blog I made a note to myself on how long it would take Navy or Fisty to turn this into a "righty" pinhead tea Well you know the term they use. 3 posts in and fisty started he/she/its rant. This is going to be fun place on Nov 3rd. All the howling of lament, its going to sound like a 13 century battlefield.

newday

Wasn't that the main horn blowing of the friggin bill as they were cramming it down our throte?????

Anon,

Thank you for the article. I haven’t a doubt the insurance companies are corrupt and greedy and need to be reigned in.

"I still believe it's true that not too amny of the republicans have spoken out against this guy with any force. Just curious what did Michelle Bachmann have to say?"

I dont know - im not a republican and dont like most conservatives - so i dont follow her. I was simply saying that because every republican, democrat, independant that has been interviewed have all said across the board that the guy was doing a knuckleheaded thing. So the comments here were the first sign ive seen of anyone -regardless of party- not condeming the actions of this 'pastor'.

No, Bob, as I recall, they wanted to offer access to health coverage for people who don't currently have it.. I imagine as costs go down, due to hospitals and doctors being able to recover money from people who are now insured, you will begin to see those savings. Really, Bob, I think you could have found a more respectful way to ask that question.

I for understand that as christians we should turn the other cheek; we should be kind, even to those who may smite us.. I also understand that the a-holes who flew our planes into our buildings, killing thousands of our friends and family did so in the name of allah. Many moslem countries forbid Christianity. Therefore i have no doubt that burning a Bible would not keep any of them awake at night..

I feel that most of the posts on here are agains the Reverend because of fear of retaliation from Islam extremist, if so, i'm damned sure that is what they want us to feel. They have a jailhouse mentallity of life; take what they want ,destroy anyone who doesn't agree, and use threats and intimidation to put fear into the hearts of those who do not agree with them...

They are once again using threats and intimidation to get their way in New York, and with The good Reverend. I hope he burns every quran he can et his hands on and i hope he shoots them the bird on international television just for one more act of defiance... BURN! BABY BURN!!

SOOOOO------ Do you think it will make the Taliban and Al Qaida, shoot at our troops?

lib twit

Yes newday that was one of their other promises but not the only one.

And you use the words "I Imagine" as cost go down. Well there is the problem. The white imagines but it doesn't guarantee anything. In fact they did nothing to address the cost.

I would have started by auditing every hospital, every Dr’s office and clinic. I would want to see everything they bill for and how much they bill. I want to see how much they pay for their supplies. And then I would go after those who charge inflated prices. The cost of care should be the same whether I’m in a hospital in California or one in my own state of NH. There is a hospital just down the road from where I work that is the most expensive hospital in the state. Why? They do the same things other hospitals do.

And as for the way I asked the question it was no more condescending than your right wing comment. Something that you regulars here seem to like. Not that it’s any of your business but I'm an independent who votes for the best person. In fact I see nobody running who will do a better job than our current governor John Lynch so he will be getting my vote again. And guess what? He's a Democrat.

Bob, you can put any spin you want on it. The fact is that people who do not currently have health insurance will have it. I can't imagine why you take that as such a personal affront. If you are referring to my statement about the right wing touting the WSJ story, that is simply a fact. You attempted to be insulting by asking a question in a rude way. It amuses me, since it says much about you.

What ever newday. I don't expect anything else from a first read regular.

Point is your heath care is going up unlike what the president was blowing when he rammed it through. WAKE UP PLEASE! Nobody is arguing about the 30 million people who will get insurance. If they can afford it that is. But that's another story.

Good day!

No, Bob, actually, while it did go up, it went up far less than the 16% it went up last year. But, I am sure that it will upset you if it doesn't go up more. The point is that it would have gone up with or without this bill, and since I have a young adult graduating college in December, the savings that will be realized since he can stay on our policy far outweigh that increase. I'm sorry to disappoint you, Bob, but we will do better under this bill almost immediately.

This health care debate again. I have 4 family members who CANNOT get inurance due to pre-existing conditions. (their ages range from 24 - 50 and some of the reasons they are denied coverage is because they took acne medications when they were under my plan when they were teenagers) This HCR bill will help them out once they can but into the plans when they go into effect. No where are my family members saying that are waiting for FREE healthcare, they want to purchase an insurance policy but right now no one will insure them. This is one reason I am so for the HCR bill. At one time, all 4 were covered under either my policy or their work policy. But ALL 4 lost their coverage when they were laid off due to this economy in 2008. This is personal for me and for them. I work in the health care field and have for 35 years. PEOPLE that get treated that have no insurance policies have the majority of their bill passed on to all the other people who have insurance policies. But Hospitals in my location raise their rates between 5 - 10% each and every year to help offset the money they lose on the uninsured. The Insurance corporations, in turn raise their rates 15 - 40% each year to offset the increase in the costs of doing business. This happens every year and has been happening since I first started in healthcare.

Why is it so difficult to see that if everyone is covered, rates will eventually level off. The cost of providing healthcare may just include the cost of providing the care rather than having to figure in the cost of providing for those who do not currently have health insurance.

I believe that if the Republicans take control back and attempt to repeal the HCR bill, there are going to be MANY people in this country that will be furious with those who voted them back into office. I will do all I can to see that this is not repealed!!! This should be about wanting everyone to have health care, not just those who can afford their policy or perfect health. Remember...at some time you are going to get sick, you will lose your job, you will be outpriced for your current health insurance plan and will be trying to get one your self. Do you really want to try to get a plan if you a pre-existing condition --like taking a drug for strep throat when you were 7!! That is a reason to be denied coverage.

Sonokursh

Why is it so difficult to see that if everyone is covered, rates will eventually level off. The cost of providing healthcare may just include the cost of providing the care rather than having to figure in the cost of providing for those who do not currently have health insurance.

The opposing viewpoint is that these people, with their preexisting conditions, will wind up using more health care, causing greater spending and further increases in rates. That may or may not be true but, considering the things the HCR bill didn't do, it is a legitimate concern.

As someone with a preexisting condition and the ability to pay, I understand your position and am for the HCR bill as it stands. Fortunately, my wife has excellent coverage and I'm on her plan. As I previously stated though, I think the bill could have done more to stem rising costs.

Even those of an opposing viewpoint will at some time in the future have to change their insurance plan. You cannot get older without having a pre-existing condition of some type that will bar them from getting an insurance policy. I may be too passionate about this, but some type of fix had to be attempted. I would have at least preferred a "public option" that could have let some buy into a government pool to purchase their health insurance.

And regardless of who you are, your body will betray you at some point and will need to access the healthcare system, or heaven forbid a plane crashes into your car while traveling on the road. At some point everyone gets sick. The fear that those who are currently not covered causing the plans of those who are covered to raise are completely unfounded. They are already being increased on a yearly basis due to the shifting of costs done by the healthcare providers (hospitals, doctors, etc.) to those who are insured.

Sonokursh said:

Even those of an opposing viewpoint will at some time in the future have to change their insurance plan. You cannot get older without having a pre-existing condition of some type that will bar them from getting an insurance policy. I may be too passionate about this, but some type of fix had to be attempted. I would have at least preferred a "public option" that could have let some buy into a government pool to purchase their health insurance.

And regardless of who you are, your body will betray you at some point and will need to access the healthcare system, or heaven forbid a plane crashes into your car while traveling on the road. At some point everyone gets sick. The fear that those who are currently not covered causing the plans of those who are covered to raise are completely unfounded. They are already being increased on a yearly basis due to the shifting of costs done by the healthcare providers (hospitals, doctors, etc.) to those who are insured.

I completely agree, which is why I mentioned that Health Care is an inelastic good and that there should be more pressure on insurance companies to negotiate costs with providers, instead of simply passing them along to consumers. I was simply mentioning the opposing viewpoint - that, because of the lack of pressure to keep costs down, the influx of new people in to the HC system isn't a foolproof way of lessening the burden on existing customers.

For what it's worth, I'm for a Medicare for all plan. It'll take many more crises before that sort of plan makes its way to the negotiating table though.

Bob:

And I'll believe what I read on the WSJ long before I believe articles from some site called The Wonk Room. Those writers are probably reporters fired from fox, msnbc or first read.

Of course you would Bob, It is another one of Rupert Murdoch Fake News Media biased outlets! Why not trust anything that the Gods at Fake News Have their hand in producing?

Navy Vet - Retire, how man jobs have you been responsible for creating during your time in the Navy or in the private market for that matter. How many payroll periods did you have to make sure you met, how many business plans have you developed, both tactical and strategic in order to make sure your company was positioned properly in the market place in order to succeed. How many times did you go without pay in order to make sure those that worked for you got paid?

Small business does not want one time tax credits on investments in 2011. That is not going to spur the economy. It will have a minimal effect if any on jobs, since most of the equipment being purchased is already in the line, already on the shelf. You don't have to go any farther then you local auto dealer, see all those cars on the lot, they are not selling yet there are more coming off the lines every day. Go to the hardware store, see all those pipes for sale, they aren't selling and yet there are more being made every day. Investing in the product is not the problem...getting into the hands of the consumer is, and without disposable income that is not happening.

How do you get money into the hands of the consumer, jobs are nice, tax cuts are nice. Tax cuts for some are not nice. Let me explain. You know that gas station you go to for service and to fill up, if the revenues generated by that station exceed $250,000 annually their taxes will be going up. What does that mean to you, well, the next time you go in for service, for an oil change or new wiper blades, you will pay more. How about that coffee and newspaper you get in the morning, if their annual revenues exceed the threshold you will end up paying more for the coffee. How about the little restaurant where you take that special someone...yep if their revenues exceed 250,000 you will pay more for that candlelight dinner. Decide to stay home, your food market's revenues exceed 250,000 you will pay more for your food, as a retiree you got be concerned about the discretionary income you will have available at the end of each month because more of your disposable income will be eaten up paying increased prices on items that taxed the rich.

How do you get money into the hands of the consumer, jobs are nice, tax cuts are nice. Tax cuts for some are not nice. Let me explain. You know that gas station you go to for service and to fill up, if the revenues generated by that station exceed $250,000 annually their taxes will be going up. What does that mean to you, well, the next time you go in for service, for an oil change or new wiper blades, you will pay more. How about that coffee and newspaper you get in the morning, if their annual revenues exceed the threshold you will end up paying more for the coffee. How about the little restaurant where you take that special someone...yep if their revenues exceed 250,000 you will pay more for that candlelight dinner. Decide to stay home, your food market's revenues exceed 250,000 you will pay more for your food, as a retiree you got be concerned about the discretionary income you will have available at the end of each month because more of your disposable income will be eaten up paying increased prices on items that taxed the rich.

2% of those making more than $250,000 are small business owners. Raising prices would deter more customers and send them to big-box retailers instead. The few business owners with income above that level would get squeezed without much recourse.

GBM: You have become quite the writer and I like what you have to say. Keep up the good work.

LOL Gingerbread Mamma - reminds me of the old Three Stooges short...

Paging Dr. MO... Paging Dr. Larry... Paging Dr. Mo!

thanks Ron and Fiesty, sometimes they just make it too easy to comment on their bad behaviour. Have a good one, I'm off to have fun, see you all later.

Gingerbread M, another great post today.

The only republican to denounce Pastor Jones' Koran burning was Mitt Romney who clearly stated it was wrong and dangerous. All the others have hum-hawed, given vague answers and linked it to the Ground Zero mosque which isn't a mosque and is not at Ground Zero.

There are no GOP Congressional legislators worthy of being called "leaders" because they cannot stand up for what is clearly wrong. Instead they attack President Obama for supporting our First Amendment Constitutional right to freedom of religion for all religions. They had plenty to say about that. They are cowards quivering in fear of the Tea Party extremists they embraced.

Gingerbread Mamma: Terrific job!!!!!! The GOP. Useless.

Gingerbread Mamma-- Mr. Steele can't interrupt his important work in Guam and Northern Mariana Islands to make statements about something that would put the troops at risk. After all, he considers Afghanistan to be President Obama's war, doesn't he?

“The goal, obviously, would be to make it a one-term presidency” http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41915.html

All you really need to know about the Republican agenda. It isn't to better the average American. It isn't to practice the "bipartisanship" they've been whining about for almost 2 years. It's to relive the glory days of destroying Bill Clinton...except that they didn't destroy him. He rose from the ashes and the next election wasn't pretty for the Republicans. No matter, whatever Conservatives can do to assist in the interests of the wealthy, even if only for a couple of years, makes the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars worth it. Look at that amount again. These http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38935053/ns/business-us_business/ are people who don't do anything unless they see gain in it. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1

That's why Conservatives aren't interested in the opinions of the rest of us, except to the extent those opinions elevate their own interests.

"The truth is, when you strip away the unrealistic (repealing any significant parts of health care) and the recycled (extend the Bush tax cuts), there are few authentically original or viable ideas getting knocked around, even in private chats." says Politico, linked above. You see, there is no agenda except to remove regulation from business and lower the tax burden of the wealthy.

Everything else is a shiny object designed to divert attention away from our democracy being stolen, one lie, one deregulatory step, one phony controversy at a time.

John B.

All you really need to know about the Republican agenda. It isn't to better the average American. It isn't to practice the "bipartisanship" they've been whining about for almost 2 years.

One of the moderate Republicans who was defeated in 2008 said that when Boehner called the Congressional Republcans together for a meeting, the only subjects that were ever discussed were how to block Democratic legislation and how to raise money for campaigns. Party uber alles.

What I find interesting is that a Christ Follower seems to be afraid of following Christ's lead. Where is the compassion , benevolence or mercy? Why is it necessary for a pastor to carry a fire arm? If he were a true Christ Follower he would not be afraid of threats on his life for it is in God's care not his own. It seems that Dr. Jones is afraid of dying. It would seem that he is afraid of Heaven. I personally like the saying "You can't scare me with Heaven". This dumbbell is one of those posers who give Christians a bad name. How about reading the Bible instead of hitting people over the head with it Dr. Jones!

As for burning books I will leave that to fascists and the communists.

I know im in the minority here- but why would someone just say "oh by the way - im against the pastor burning qurans"? Personally, i would like to see more politicians ignoring this. Why give this idiot the press or time of day? If directly asked, thats different - but thats on the media fanning these flames. I wouldnt comment on the guy either if i was a politician, he's not worth the effort, nor would i want to give him more attention.

I also dont see how this is a republican/democrat issue. The pastor is an idiot, hes not a mouth piece for either party.

GBM----- Some peolple will call that minding your own business as opposed to the inept liar in the white house, who seems to thrive on sticking the presidential nose, into local issues.

He supprted the muslims building the victory tower in NYC now he is defending the Quaran aginst burning.

Some people are starting to say that his religious convictions force him to speakout. against anyone denigrating the muslims.

Sounds like he really just, doesn't want to be the president, any more, doesn't it?

Absolutely!

Things are going so well since the dems took Congress and the White House!

HELLO????????

You boneheads patting each other on the back for your ability to bring the country to it's knees, and as usual, slamming republicans BEFORE they even get the House or Senate back!

And Feisty Red

"Paging Dr. Mo"?

First of all it's "Moe", and the line is: "Paging Dr. Fine Dr. Howard Dr. Fine".

You guys are more blockheaded than this pastor!

Hello,

Ron, yours and others are excellent comments and although I am not a word-smith, I would like to add a thought.

President Eisenhower warned us to “beware of the industrial military complex.” I think many of you buried your heads in the sand, fell asleep, and when you woke found our country changed. Those that changed the country tell you it is the fault of the left or right, whereas others are just yelling “the sky is falling.” Our problems have nothing to do with race, ethnics, or religion; however, our problems are directly related to the ignorance and laziness of “we the people” and our ignorance of history, our coward’s approach to governance and personal responsibility.

I carefully read your comments and know all of you understand the concepts of personal responsibility. In the Marines, the chain of command included “this Marine.” A mason should learn it prior to MM. A historian learns searching for facts and etcetera. Now clear from your minds our military, because our military has and is constitutionally and professionally correct. That leaves the second half of the warning that is attached to the military which is the industrial complex. You need to ask yourselves some serious questions. What is the industrial complex? How did the industrial complex become more than developers and suppliers to the military? Why did Eisenhower warn us our liberty depended upon guarding against the industrial military complex?

It is time for us to rub the sleep from our eyes, ignore the sectarian rhetoric, think, learn, and act on factual conditions and not because we think the “sky is falling.” Intentional ignorance is cowardly and reading your comments, it is obvious you are not cowards, but are citizens that desire our nation to maintain its potential and that can only occur if/when we again become citizens by learning about the insidious deleterious problems caused during our long sleep.

To all of the military people (former and present) Semper Fi. For the old, welcome home and for the present – I keep you in my thoughts and prayers stay safe and all of you, please read Eisenhower’s farewell address. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm

Be Well,

Where were you when all the 'recruitmwnt of terrorists' was going on in response to Abu Grahib, watergoarding, renditions, etc was going on????????

You are correct about the Koran burning. It is not a mosque, it is a cultural center two blocks away and even at the planned 13 stories cannot be seen from Ground Zero. Do you object to the adult entertainment bar which is closer to Ground Zero? That does not mean I think it is wise but this cultural center has been in process for over a year. It seems that last year no one cared but in an election year, it is a suddenly worthy of discussion.

All that yelling about Abu Ghraib and Gitmo was precisely because they recruited terrorists and incited violence against our troops and Americans world wide. It did not matter who was in the White House. Anger at Pres Bush was for an unnecessary war based on tidbits gleaned to support it.

You are right, CU

But beyond that, book burnings just shouldn't be happening here, in America. We don't burn other people's religious symbols... we stand by them.

You see, CU, What makes me different from the Conservative establishment is that I don't believe you can do the wrong thing for the right reasons. Abu Ghraib was wrong. The entire black prison system is wrong. Gitmo is wrong. The Enemy Combatant concept is wrong. The theory of the Unitary Executive is wrong. Warrantless wiretapping is wrong.

The only honest way to differentiate the good guys from the bad guys is to do the right thing. The Conservatives who foisted all this upon us therefore can only be misguided at best, and certainly aren't good guys to the extent they do the wrong thing. To the extent the Obama Administration is doing those same things they are also wrong. Ethics and morals are like that.

Wow, John B. Just, wow. GREAT post, one of your best!

John B: You just knocked my socks off with that post. Outstanding.

CU Farley

There you again, you get one part right and the rest wrong. Someone building a Islamic Center 2 blocks from Ground Zero has nothing to do w/ this and you know. Your as bad as Boehner w/ his statement. Are you upset that some Christian religious zealot also has plans to but a Christian center a few blocks from Ground Zero? No your not because your a hyprocrite like all of the othe Repubs. As for the Gitmo and Abu Gharib things, we tortured them. Do you understand, the Lil Shrub & Darth Cheney tortured in our name, war crimes, you know the very thing we punished Nazis and our own soldiers w/ in Vietnam, yes the did that in OUR name. Two little punks, one who's Dad made sure he would never have to see combat and the other w/ his 5 deferments because he was so terrified of war but has no problem sending other people's kids to their deaths.

Huh, What? Come on Ron your not supposed to buy socks with your welfare check, you should know that.

"You are correct about the Koran burning. It is not a mosque, it is a cultural center two blocks away and even at the planned 13 stories cannot be seen from Ground Zero. Do you object to the adult entertainment bar which is closer to Ground Zero? That does not mean I think it is wise but this cultural center has been in process for over a year. It seems that last year no one cared but in an election year, it is a suddenly worthy of discussion."

The building was struck with pieces of the plane, i think that classifes as ground zero. And no, i dont care about the strip club- Strippers didnt murder 3000 Americans, radical muslims did. If Adult Entertainers go on a rampage and murder 3000 people in cold blood, im pretty sure that Americans would not want a strip club at the site of the atrocity. People care about the mosque/community center now because it is being moved foward on. Noone cares that they own the building, people care that they are actually building a mosque/community center.

BTW - there is going to be a mosque there- so people calling it a mosque are correct. It just happens to be both a mosque and a community center. People seem to omit one or the other based on what they are arguing for.

It seems to be apparent at this point that the libtwits willl be for any, that bashes the USA and aginst anything that speaks well of the Usa, they loved it when Obama went on his world apology tour.

Very well truck on lib twits, if you think it was bad before, wait till after the elections, going to be fun to tear down all of your hard earned freebie programs for the parasites and take your insurance farce, the Muslims are not going to be really happy either, their life is about to get much less privileged, they may well be going south at ourm siuthern border, with the criminal aliens.

Hi IR, the mental picture you drew of this guy in downtown Kabul, will keep me smilling all day. Great Post.

Have a good day.

Well said IR! I wish I could write like you!

All you good libs on here so worried about burning a few symbols of islam.............. how do you feel when they burn the American flag.

I do not agree with burning the korans but that is what you get with your liberal ideas. The ACLU should be down there protecting his right to do it and I am appalled at you libs for not sticking up for the pastors rights.

OOOOOHHHHHH, Thats right.........you only think people should have rights you agree with......I forgot.

I never bought this whole "let's not pi$$ off the people that hate us and want to kill us, because if we do they might....hate us and want to kill us" argument. What this preacher doesn't realize is, some of you people are so sick that, after next week, you'll be blaming him for EVERY single soldier that gets killed, every act of Islamic terrorism that happens ANYWHERE, here or abroad. That's the kind of people many of you are.

Suddenly, Islamic terror will be everywhere. Which will be funny coming from you people since you are so willing to blame it on other factors much of the time. An Islamofacist kills 13 of his fellow US soldiers? A year ago, it was because he was a lone nut.

From now on, it will be all because some preacher burned a few Korans.

This whole issue does a great job of showing the difference between modern Islam and Christianity. A few of their holy books get burned and you all are POSITIVE that will incite them to kill, behead, bomb etc...When someone burns a few bibles or makes a disguting piece of anti-Christian art, there is no fear of anything of the kind. You all still want to lie about Christianity being as extreme as Islam?

CU Farley:

I never bought this whole "let's not pi$$ off the people that hate us and want to kill us, because if we do they might....hate us and want to kill us" argument.

Nobody I've heard of has been trying to sell that argument. Gen. Petraeus certainly wasn't. The problem is that stuff like this attracts people to extremist Islamic groups who would not otherwise have joined. Those who already are part of violent extremist groups can't get any more violent just because Qurans are burned, but they can use the video as a recruitment tool.

Great post, IR. What a terrible waste this whole thing is--a waste of media time when important issues aren't being covered, a waste of the resources of the local police who will have to provide protection for this "event", a waste of national resources to provide extra security at embassys and most important, if even 1 U.S. soldier is killed or harmed by this, a waste of our greatest treasure, our young people. And for what--to make a point that won't be listened to by the people to whom it is supposedly directed. And to possibly alienate moderate Muslims who have not yet been turned off to the U.S.

Excellent, I.R. The word picture of Jones in Kabul is perfectly painted. The "preacher man" is a coward; he will commit his radical extremist act in the safety of his home country where local, state government officials will protect him.

"Nothing is more unpleasant that a virtuous person with a mean mind." Walter Bogehot, English editor and economist. 1826-1877

Chuckles. Nope not all of them. However it's pretty well a given that if you take a stupid action to incite your opponent you are going to add some to your loss column. You willing to join with the Preacher Man and take you a little trip down to Dover and meet those flag covered coffins and look their families in the eye and apologize for the fact that you might have a little something to do with them being there. Or maybe your going to hide behind that specious argument that you and your Buddy up there gave in order to avoid that little duty. If you can't walk the walk best not talk the talk.

CU and Proud Republican, you two are just hate filled and idiots to boot. Just like this preacher in Florida.

proud republican, no one has said he doesn't have the right to do that. We're saying that though he has the right to do so he should have the good sense not to.

Oh, that's right, it's an argument that's applicable to things that aren't mosques being built at places that aren't Ground Zero.

What's the common denominator here? Conservatives are perfectly comfortable letting Muslims know they're the minority and darned well ought to know their place.

IR: It's good to see you out and about this morning. Liked your post. I don't think ol Terry Jones would last 2 minutes in Afghanistan.

IRVA:

On the money!

This pathetic creature in Gainsville is so ignorant he does even know where Afghanistan is, never mind how to get there.

I think it would be fitting and proper for the constabulary to go fetch him and take him there so he can have his Quran Burning up close and personal.

proud republican, your comparison does not hold water.

When an American burns the flag in protest of American actions, I have no problem with that, my patriotism and loyalty to our country is much stronger than to be threatened by someone burning a flag. When an American flag is burned by someone in a foreign land, that is something that motivates me to serve in our military (I am a vet).

The difference is that we have a Constitution and we have a definition of what constitutes treason, other countries have their own laws. Our laws are not theirs and their laws are not ours.

Try reading the SCOTUS rulings on flag burning. I do not have the links handy but if you can post here, you can find the links yourself.

Tube machine connection has been up and down all morning but while it's up I sure want to express my appreciation to all you folks for the kind words and stopping by and adding some fine thoughts to mine this morning. Here's hoping that we'll all still be joined together when the early evening twilight comes and not floating around somewhere in the ethernet this time.

Pssssst Ron neither would most of you liberals. I have a good friend that works for a security firm in Kabul, he called me the other day and chuckled as he said this is no place for liberal thinking, it will get your head lopped off.

If you don't like some one excersizing their constittutional right, too bad.

Do you and Obama call each other in the wee small hours and commiserate with each other on the restrictions of the constitution, that keep you from running the country the way it should be run?

All this liberal "back patting" is hysterical!

I'm glad the four or five of you think so highly of yourselves!

When you're ready for reality, let me know.

Whether you're ready or not come November, reality will hit you like a pile of Qurans.

Keep dreaming Joe keep dreaming. You'll eventually convenience yourself.

Mo, STS. He isn't worth the time.

Matt, is it true all LL's STS with their butt crack??

As a matter of fact, Joe, yes.

Matthew, Houston, TX
As a matter of fact, Joe, yes.

OMG ... Mathhew - by far the funniest reponse to a rightie all week! ;0))))

STS indeed! lmao

Matthew and Feisty: I may laugh about that the rest of the day! Absolutely hysterical. Matthew, thanks for the laugh!

You're welcome, Newday and Feisty but I couldn't have done it without Joe.

Thanks, Joe.

Matthew: thanks for the only laugh I've had today!! Hysterical! LOL!!

Joe----- Excellent post and seems to be right on the money

You are right, Matthew - It's like shooting fish in a barrell!

STS, INDEED!

This is a perfect example of the stupidity of lefty liberals. I make a comment that says they use their butt cracks to Smirk To Self (STS) meaning LL's are all Buttheads talking through their A$$es and they think it's funny.

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried!!!!!

;0))))

Geez Feisty, with all those chins you really shoud lose some poundage.

Actually Joe, STS means Shun The Stupid....'Nuff Said!

B. Honest,

you forgot to mention that Joe suggests we are mooning him while doing it; making it EVEN MORE hysterical. personally, I don't; but it certainly has merit at times!

"Actually Joe, STS means Shun The Stupid"

Of the 17 definitions for STS in the Urban Dictionary, none are defined that way. Must some special lefty liberal code word description. I stand by my post 5.11 above.

LOL!!!

Shoot, Joe, you really are stupid. Keep on believing you won, there, sparky. Meanwhile I will continue to STS through my butt crack right at you.

Joe's reaction to my 5.4 post, "HAHAhahah . . . wait . . . what?" Proof is his 5.11 post that he continues to 'stand by'.

What a maroon (yes, I spelled that the way I wanted to spell it).

I find it funny how Democrats think every Republican watches Fox news and yells to anyone that will listen on how biased Fox news is, and that people who get there news from Fox are redneck idiots. But these democrats are constantly getting their news from COMEDY CENTRAL and praising Jon Stewart as the best newsman of today! IT'S COMEDY CENTRAL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

Cult-

Egg on face dept...that would be yours...

You didn't watch the segment, because if you did you'd know how silly your post is, but thanks for bashing me from the right, I don't get that enough here..:)

Watch the dammed thing before going off on a tangent ...

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

dangerfield,

First, I tried to watch it, but I couldn't find a closed caption option, therefore, I can't.

Second, I don't care if he is "sticking it" too the DNC chair. He's still a third rate comedian, not a journalist.

I've got to give Dangerfield a vote on that one. Just be Stewart was so effective in skewering Republicans when Bush was president, doesn't mean he's a lackey of the Obama administration. Whoever is in power gets needled and blasted on the Daily Show, and now that's Obama and the Democrats. Even when Bush was president, he'd do jokes about Democrats like Nancy Pelosi.

Don't watch the next episode dangerfield, he'll go after your republicans and you'll hate him again. That's the way your republicans are if someone says something you like you love them, but when they say something you don't like you hate them it's a daily thing with you nuts. No one takes you seriously dangerfield.

Mo-1852032

Don't watch the next episode dangerfield, he'll go after your republicans and you'll hate him again. That's the way your republicans are if someone says something you like you love them, but when they say something you don't like you hate them it's a daily thing with you nuts. No one takes you seriously dangerfield.

Dear poor, angry, misguided, did I already say angry? Mo-

forgive me, and I hope you are reading this during a rare moment of clarity and lucidity, but...

I don't take YOU seriously at all. I sort of feel sorry for you and hope you get better soon...

It's like throwing yankee insults at a mets fan...

Cult of Personality

dangerfield,

First, I tried to watch it, but I couldn't find a closed caption option, therefore, I can't.

Second, I don't care if he is "sticking it" too the DNC chair. He's still a third rate comedian, not a journalist."

Dear angry misguided guy on the right (the fact that I am getting hit from both sides is gratifying btw-thanks so much!)

If Jon Stewart is a "third-rate" comedian, please list some of those first and second raters for everyone.

In addition to closed captioning you may also benefit from translation into "no sense of humor"...:)

Have a great day!

please list some of those first and second raters for everyone

Wiffleball's Chris Mathews and MSNBC's feisty redhead, Ed Shultz, of the Mr. Ed Show immediately come to mind as first rate comedians.

Jon Stewart is also first rate. The only reason I rank Matthews and Mr. Ed ahead of him is those two clowns don't even realize they are comedians.

Dangerfield,

Stewart for all his comedy is hard on everyone that goes on his show. I've seen him slam both Repubs and Dems for their actions. He like Russert was, but only funny.

Well, Im sure Mr. Stewart is crying all the way to the bank, he def is one of those people that fall into the "We need to redistribute his wealth category"

dangerfield,

I find myself in the untenable situation of not only agreeing with you (ouch); but feeling the need to provide evidence to snap Cult of Personality out of his humorless stupor.

Granted this research is three years old,...it's still germane.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/16/daily-show-fox-knowledge/

http://www.lostremote.com/2007/06/17/daily-show-and-colbert-viewers-most-informed-about-news/

I especially like the line, "...it’s possible Daily Show and Colbert watch those shows because they know more about the news – a prerequisite to understanding the jokes." Something the Fox lemmings can't seem to grasp, as evidenced by the low score provided in the first link.

Okay, this round is over; back to your corner. You can come out swinging in the next round!

Pat: You had something to say and you said it with feeling! Great post.

PS. I really liked your post from yesterday. It was the best of the day.

Thank you dear friend Ron.

Pat:

People in my opinion we are being sold down the preverbal river by the Republicans. This party has declared an all out war against President Obama and the middle class. They have consistently blocked or filibustered virtually every bill that has to do with creating jobs, cutting taxes for small businesses, increasing regulations on Financial Institutions that caused the largest economic disaster since the great depression, increasing regulations on big businesses that put profit above the safety of it employees resulting in hundreds of deaths over the years in search of the almighty dollar. A party that claims they are for middle America as used the Bush tax cuts as their talking point not mentioning that 0ver 50% of the benefits went to the richest 2% that do not need a tax cut. In fact while Middle American was going in the toilet, many of the richest 2% were making huge economic gains.

They have not offered any new ideas and in fact want to go back the same agenda that was in place by the previous administration.

US Navy, I know. I can't for the life of me figure out what their message is, other than being The Do Nothing GOP Congress. Something they seem very proud of, while the country hurts. Rachel killed their new ad last night. It was a thing of beauty for her say, right into the camera - that the Republicans voted FOR the TARP under President Bush. Yet this is what they're running on - Wall Street Bail Outs. It's comical in a way. They lie and lie and lie and lie. They've got nothing else. Nothing.

Wasn't the 14th amendment in there, too?

I'm not sure... it was a LONG list...

Obama's doing a great job, isn't he?

Pat;

Great posts this morning. I just do not understand why some many people are blindly putting themselves in harms way. We have to date not seen anything from the republican party that differs much from the previous administration. If people are screaming now, wait until the republicans take over again. It is going to really get bad. Less regulations on big business means more people will probably be maimed or killed in the name of profits over safety. Wall Street will come up with new scams to drive the economy further into chaos, Rights guaranteed by the constitution will be trampled on. The middle class will be destroy making this country a third world joke.

They just do not undestand, that if they are in the 98% of the people, they are in the same boat. Makes no difference if republican or democrat, we are all going to drown.

Thanks for this post, Pat. When you put it all in one place it is stunning. It is hard for me to say what the Republicans are for other than less regulation and tax cuts. These sound great in theory but we've seen what happened in practice.

Said with passion! Great post, Pat. Nothing I can add to it, it was exactly right.

Pat that's really striking. Well said that Conservatives seek to repeal the 20th Century. What stands out about the 20th Century? The rise of a comfortable American middle class. It's clear that the new Robber Barons http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38935053/ns/business-us_business/ want to put us in our place and follow instructions like good serfs.

Pat:

Your post should be the Democratic platform for this election cycle!

Thanks everybody. Thank Media Matters as well. This was their article.

Eric Burns, President Media Matters - I love him. Absolutely love him. He's tenacious yet respectful and professional. And someone we've been seeing a lot of lately - David Corn/Mother Jones - he's terrific as well.

MEDIA MATTERS...LOL

Automatically discredited........LEFT WING BS.

Pat,

Great job. Hard to argue the facts but some will try. See ya later.

Ooh, a win by declaration instead of points! Reason has no place in a Conservative argument anyway. Otherwise Conservatives would relish the opportunity to take apart a Liberal argument. After all, good arguments stand on their merit. If you can't do that declare victory and move on.

Dude you're wasting your time here, sadly...

After the last 18 months of watching the "over the top" ultra-right wing comedy skit that "is" the GOP, Fox and the their brainwashed cult followers if there's one thing that's become crystal clear it's that things like "facts" and "telling the truth" or taking "any" kind of responsibility for the past 8 years are like the damn Ebola virus to these people.

You'd kinda think the "fact" that the GOP relentlessly dodges basic questions like "what is your plan to jump start the economy" if they win in November would trip a light bulb on.

SPOILER ALERT: The can't answer that "serious" question because beyond getting back into the drivers seat they don't actually have one...

So funny that I keep hearing these loons say "I can see November from my front porch!"

Well I can see "ignorance, bigotry, fear mongering, lack of decency, lack of morality, catering to the "dumbest" elements of our society and staggering hypocrisy" from mine...

I wish Obama would do another GOP summit/debate like with the healthcare bill-you know, the one where Fox actually turned it off to "shield" its dimwitted viewers from "reality" of the "Chicago style" ass kicking he laid on them by calling them out on their BS.

For athe Repubs, CONServatives and right wing nut jobs, why haven't you taken responsibility for this mess you left the country in the first place? Not one Repub in Congress has said " we screwed up" by running up the deficit, not paying for 2 Wars, not paying for Medicare Part D, a basic give away to Big Pharma and the insurance companies. All you can do is blame Obama for not righting the shop quick enough. It took 20 some odd years to get here in the first, and now you want instant gratitification. Your hyprocisy no know bounds sort of like Boehner's economic plan. A 2 point plan for two years. Thats similar to the budget they produced that had no numbers in it. Now your all ponding on your chests as if Aqua Buddha has walked into the room. You must realize, that the same tricks, the Repubs have played for almost 2 years will be played on them. Except, you won't have Darth Cheney coming in to make the 51 votes for. Congress will grind to a halt, and you'll say, " Those damned Democrats ahe holding everything up." Doesn't matter that the Repubs have done the same thing, its just more convenient to blame Dems like Bush did. Pathetic

JJd, Its Tea party, it isn't the yellowish stain on the bridge of your nose.

Well, the Republicans are running against Nancy Pelosi and encouraging her ouster as Speaker so why not let people know who they would be getting as Speaker?

Besides President Obama can crush Boehner debating any issue. Boehner is just not vary smart, somebody has to tell him what to say, but that's what the republicans like.

There's no question that Republicans are running on a different economic agenda than Democrats. Voters understand that. Therefore it's a perfectly valid to inform voters exactly what that strategy entails. Conservatives don't want to do that, they want to run on talking points, smears, and phony controversies. For that reason alone it's important to educate the voters as to the real Conservative agenda.

Delores-his ego won't allow that.

Did you know that the venue for this event had to be changed? It was to be in a much larger place on campus, and got moved to a theater that only holds 150 people. Even then, they had to coerce community college students to fill the seats, as they did not want media to see the empty hall.

Looks like Mr. Soaring Rhetoric has grown old in the eyes of the electorate. Fewer people getting chills, fainting, chanting. . .

Ah, well, he'll always have his faithful few on First Read.

Well Delores, that would be a fine thing for the President to do but with the do nothing GOP, he is having a hrd time doing that. I find that this current lot of Republicans are nothing more than a bunch of old white guys who want to protect their riches and power. Let us not forget that they have had very few change over in their ranks and they are the ones that brought us 2 not 1 but 2 unfunded wars and uncontrolled spending. Now I ask you what have they presented that would change what they have done in the past? They have represented nothing but obstruction, they plan to make sure the President is only going to last 1 term. Please tell me exactly what are they going to change? They have not presented one thing different from the mess they started when in power. Just because the economy has not turned around does not mean the President is not trying to fix it, let us not forget it took the W administration a long time to get the economy in the shape that it was before he left office, and if you had any common sense you would know that it will take a long time to turn it around since the Republicans are hell bent on dergulation of our financial system which was in part of the reason it damn near collapsed to the ground. Please tell me exactly point by point what the Republicans plan to do differently than what they have already done!

What I resent most about this heated exchange that Obama found it necessary to spend more of my tax dollars unnecessarily to fly Air Force One to Ohio to have a "p...ing" contest.

And I'll bet you were just as outraged when Bush and every other president used Air Force 1 to fly to political events. Let's make the President of the United States fly coach from now on, or better yet, take a Grayhound bus.

Did you know that the venue for this event had to be changed? It was to be in a much larger place on campus, and got moved to a theater that only holds 150 people. Even then, they had to coerce community college students to fill the seats, as they did not want media to see the empty hall

As usual...nothing to back up the accusation... just more figments of the imagination! lol

PS: Terry good to see you back! ;0)

Policy for every President--Republican or Democrat--is for his political party to reimburse the costs of political travel.

And what I resent most is people like you who go ape-sh!!! over things President Obama has done that every president before him has also done...but, of course, there's just one difference between him and all previous presidents before him...the color of his skin. Where was your outrage when Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Reagan travelled the country while president making political speeches touting their plans and asking for support in the face of opposition from the opposition party, and using Air Force 1 to do it?

Morning Steeler Fan;

The right never lets facts get in the way of a talking point. For that matter they do not let history get in the way either.

Did any of you feel the same way when President Bush flew to hold campaign events? It cost tax money when Bush flew as well. If not, then it stop whining now, it makes republicans sound shrill. This is as silly and nitpicking as vacations and telepromters.

And I'll bet you were just as outraged when Bush and every other president used Air Force 1 to fly to political events. Let's make the President of the United States fly coach from now on, or better yet, take a Grayhound bus.

Why is every Obama comparison to Bush? Is the objective to be the second worst president in living memory? Obama takes 48 days vacation in 2 years. No working stiff gets that. But the justification is Bush took more. Bush was an idiot. If this is your measure then Obama is slightly better than Bush. Big Deal.

Obama takes 48 days vacation in 2 years. No working stiff gets that.

That equates to approximately 3 weeks per year... so the point again would be WHAT?

And they never let facts get in the way of a good lie or made up story either. Hate is all they got and they use it daily.

We, in the business world, do not count weekends as vacation. 48 days /5 = 9 1/2 weeks.

Most people start at 10 days vacation a year.

....and don't start with the "he's never really on holiday - no president is". The point is that the only comparison you want to make to President Obama is President Bush. Go ahead. Keep the bar low.

As another poster put it "We suck less".

Whining, Delores?

Or TELLING THE TRUTH for the thousandth time?

And he's the PRESIDENT- he GETS to use Air Force 1 ALL the time

Get over it.

FRH:

Did you know that the venue for this event had to be changed? It was to be in a much larger place on campus, and got moved to a theater that only holds 150 people. Even then, they had to coerce community college students to fill the seats, as they did not want media to see the empty hall

As usual...nothing to back up the accusation... just more figments of the imagination! lol

As usual, into hero worship. Maybe Obama should go back to Germany and give a speech. They seemed to like him there.

And there was a venue change from the larger Baldwin College auditorium to the smaller Cuyahoga Community College West campus. And Obama's minions still had to drag 75 more people in off the streets to fill the seats.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/09/tri-c_students_recruited_to_fi.html

Alan, NJ: As another poster put it "We suck less".

Who? The Democrats? No they don't. They suck a lot more.

....and don't start with the "he's never really on holiday - no president is". The point is that the only comparison you want to make to President Obama is President Bush. Go ahead. Keep the bar low

Alan dear... since you want to keep obsessing on President Bush then I'll use your 'math' and simply say;

Alan dear... since you want to keep obsessing on President Bush then I'll use your 'math' and simply say;

96 days /5 = 19 weeks was taken by President Obama's predecessor... at this time in their respective terms.

PS: The original comment had NOTHING to do with vacation time... but as usual.. it's spun & twisted to fit the right wing agenda! lmao!

But I am not the one putting out all of these comparisons. I have already made up my mind on Bush and have decided that he was the worst president in my memory (so far). I used the vacation time as an example of how the various posters here defend President Obama by comparing him to Bush. I find that very depressing.

It is similar to a commentator (tongue-in-cheek) last week on channel 11 here in New York (Channel 11 is WPIX). He was making the joke that the genius of Beck and Palin is that all of their activities are reported by their left-wing opponents. When you read this board and watch just a night of MSNBC you can see that there is more than a nugget of truth in what he was satirizing. I personally have not watched Fox News for any length of time since it started. Never watched O'Rielly, Hannity or Beck. I had to be told that Colbert was mocking O'Reilly in his "Word" segment. However, on this board I find out more about Beck and Palin than I do when I read the news, and I read a lot of news. Why are you guys obsessed with Beck, Palin and Fox News? Obama won the election by 6 points and these guys were around then. I really don't get it.

Delores

Does that also apply to that traitor Reagan? He whined and whined and continued to whine even during his relection about Carter and everything else. By the what did your hero bring us beside more debt placed on public w/ his idiotic policies, "Star Wars" come come to mind. The Berlin Wall would have come down anyway because of Gorbachev. So what did that whiny lil bast*** bring us beside division and debt?

Nice try walking it back Alan and changing the discourse, you were busted by Feisty.

Nice try walking it back Alan and changing the discourse, you were busted by Feisty.

In your biased world of self-reinforcing appreciation exactly what was I busted on? BTW Have you ever criticized/disagreed with anybody in your little clique?

Gee Alan, it's not like you got busted for plagiarizing an entire article or anything, and then tried to "walk it back" by claiming you didn't.

One of my workers went to the "event" she told me they positioned the cameras so they caught only the Union people behind Mr Obama. The rest of the crowd was not clapping, just the union rally people.

JoAnnaSmith1

Gee Alan, it's not like you got busted for plagiarizing an entire article or anything, and then tried to "walk it back" by claiming you didn't

Gee... it's not like JoAnna Smith was suspended from First Read for a day 'or anything now' is it?

JoAnnaSmith1

If the Lil Shrub was able to make a coherent speech and not sound like such to tool, maybe it would have been so horrible. Reagan was tool as well but could at least make jokes about himself and his age, Your guy Bush, not so much. Remeber during the Kerry debates when he had Cheney funneling answers to him via his little pack in his jacket? But facts remain JoAnna1, it was the Repubs who ran the economy into a ditch after having a surplus. Repubs never seem to get it, they run up massive debt, but always want to blame Dems for their actions. Why is that JoAnna1? Last I heard the police & fire depts have decided you didn't need their services afterblasting their Unions. lol

dangerfield found another quote he likes.

patHuntingtonNY

Republicans have finally stepped up and denounced the Koran book burning plans...such as Sarah Palin. So, to the neo-con-nit-wits bashing us libs speaking out against the book burning, its not just us...its your fellow tea bags that think its a bad idea too! In your face tea bags!

Irony is lost dept, #212

Great post Pat! Way to show those "tea bags" why it's counterproductive to use inflammatory language and gestures to make your point. I bet they're all standing and applauding...

Pat, Pat, Pat Its going to be a long year with the yellow stain on the bridge of your nose!

I seriously doubt a call from the president will change his mind but it will give him a louder voice; he claims God is telling him to do this.

I agree everytime Americans protest Islamic centers or show disrespect to the Koran, Osama bin Laden and the rest of radical Islam cheer. They cheer when they see the US flag burnings in protest. This is the power they seek and too often we provide them with the fuel to stoke their fires of hatred.

Second, what does this fear of pissing off the Muslims say about the US? Are we so afraid of them that we now shriek at the thought of burning a Koran when buring a bible is looked down upon mostly but easily tolerated..? Seems to me like the Muslim extremists have already had a great victory.

Yeah, General Petraeus is a real nervous nelly for worrying about his troops suffering increased attacks on his troops for no good reason. Doing something stupid like burning books to enrage the enemy is the truest sign of courage.

BTW: This whole ridiculous thing reminds me of another case of taunting the enemy: William the Conqueror was beseiging some town in France, and the enemy hung tanned cattle hides on the castle walls to taunt him because he was rumored to be the illegitimate son of a tanner's daughter. They did succeed in making Bill real real angry. When the castle fell, the people who had taunted him got extra-special treatment from the highly skilled torturers in his employ.

The Congressional Budget Office [CBO] is out with a new letter saying that while the health care law could “reduce the projected budget deficit by $30 billion over the next 10 years,” repealing it would increase the deficit by an estimated $455 billion.

That’s a swing of nearly half a trillion dollars.

Dennis;

Oh shoot, another rightie ignoring the facts. Next they will say that tax cuts generate revenue and therfore pay for themselves and need not be part of the deficit calculation.

I'm a righty I'm a lefty, I'm two, two, two mints in one!

Some here define themselves in their rush to judge others.

Danger, here is some additional information to consider:

Despite the GOP’s doomsday predictions about the health care law dramatically increasing health care costs, a new report from the Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) predicts health spending will grow only “slightly faster than projected under prior law – at an annual rate of 6.3 percent, rather than 6.1 percent” — a fairly small price to pay for providing insurance coverage to 32.5 million more Americans. By 2019, health spending will “increase as a share of the economy by only 0.3 percentage points, to 19.6 percent of GDP,” the government found. (More details at the link below)

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/09/09/cms-new-report/

dangerfield found another quote he can cherry pick. Sorry danger you've been hammered by Dennis and Navey once again, it looks like you'd learn to quit challenging them. But republicans incapable of learning anything.

(poor) Mo-

Whub, whub, whub!...:)

So what happens to the people who have been paying their own insurance policies for years, that are going to have plans cancelled? Like my disabled wife. We already have the letter saying as of jan 1st 2011 the policy can not be renewed. Im looking at 20K worth of medical bills next year.

PuCkiE if you take a good look at what is available in you will find she is covered.

There is immediate access to anyone that has their coverage cancelled or has a pre-existing condition.

http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/TIMELINE.pdf

So your admitting danger that the republicans suck more than the Democrats.

Hey kids!

I have my own stalker!

Like I said Mo, when I'm not feeling sorry for your unfortunate loss of the the other two stooges, you give me a good (albeit tiny) chuckle...

Please don't get discouraged...

Have a great day!

(That "you're vs your" thing is really confusing huh?)

You failed to mention that Boehner spread money from the Tobacco Industry around the floor of the Congress minutes before a vote to stop farm subsidies to them.

You also failed to mention, he went to Wall Street with Mitch McConnell to shake them down for money before voting against the reform bill.

He makes $170,000 a year as a Congressman. he needs two residences, one in his home State and one in DC. Yet he can squeeze out enough money to buy $1,500 suits. Amazing isn't it?

Actually, Jody-

I have seen the latest Gallup generic numbers discussed in the MSM, including First Read and MSNBC (The Rachel Maddow Show). Yesterday, Chris Cillizza of the Washington Post did an extensive analysis of the new Gallup numbers and offered some possible explanations for the volatility of Gallup's generic polling. I'd venture a guess that the topic was explored elsewhere as well.

It might be useful to consider the generic vote findings of some other major pollsters released in the last week, compared to Gallup:

Quinnipiac: Republicans +5; Rasmussen: Republicans +12; Fox: Republicans +9; CNN: Republicans +7; ABC News/Washington Post: Republicans +13; Democracy Corps (James Carville's polling outfit): Republicans +7.

Yesterday, I and at least one other blogger here on First Read, made reference to a report from voter turnout expert Curtis Gans of American University. Mr. Gans has analyzed turnout numbers for the state primaries in this year's election cycle and found that more Republicans (four million more) voted than did Democrats.... This is the first time that has happened in 80 years.

I mention this because on her show last night, Rachel Maddow also discussed the Gallup generic polling, and the findings of the report issued by Mr. Gans and American University. Ms. Maddow correctly pointed out that the findings in Mr. Gans report were far more important than generic polling because it involved real voters voting in real elections for real candidates.

She added that "A four million vote turnout deficit in the primaries is a very 'bad news' metric for Democrats."

This is one of the few times I find myself in complete agreement with Ms. Maddow. Actual voter turnout in the state primaries is a far more substantial indicator of the likely general election outcome than generic polling numbers...but political handicappers do find generic polling useful to a degree.

Republicans have found another poll they can put their faith in. Keep believing these polls republicans it'll be you dooms day come November.

MB,

The reason for the disparity in numbers between Repub and Dem voters in the primaries was mostly due to the huge number of highly contested races between Repubs and Tea Partiers and also the relatively few such contests between Dems. Primaries ALWAYS bring out fewer people than do the actual elections themselves. The true test will be in the elections themselves and with the lack of actual plans, the voting NO NO NO on everything Dem and the plans to repeal, obstruct and investigate, which seems to be the REAL Repub platform, I think that the Independents are going to turn away from the Repubs and vote for the people that have proven themselves as WANTING to Govern for the People, not hold up Government for their own profits.

All that the Repubs have shown is a lockstep attitude of blocking everything that WOULD be helping ALL Americans and a barrage of dirty tricks, smears and Fear. America went through 8 years of that under Bush and now that is all that the Repubs are able to do. They have NO real ideas on how to govern so they try to bring down those who do with their dirty tactics.

America is actually smarter than that, and because of the Repubs showing their true colors the American Electorate is going to turn out, turn on them and show them the door. Fear, Smear, Hate, Obstruction and consistently voting against the needs of the Electorate are not the way to get into office: these are NOT American Values in any way, shape or form. They are the tactics of a desperate minority with no real ideas of their own just trying to regain and maintain the status quo of their own slipping power.

B.Honest-

Evidently Mr. Gans and Ms. Maddow disagree with your assessment of the significance of the turnout numbers in this state primary election cycle, and the likely impact of those turnout numbers on the upcoming midterm elections.

May I suggest that you actually read Mr Gans' lengthy report, and actually view Ms Maddow's comments before you weigh in with another rebuttal completely devoid of substance?

Because...after carefully weighing the content of your remarks, I'm going to stick with what Mr. Gans and Ms. Maddow have offered instead.

Thanks for the input, though.

Jody:

John Boehner may have been emotional but the more I see the video I think he was drunk! He was hiccupping and his eyes were red and glossy. Just a hot mess.

Does America really want a drunkard who is not very smart in the Speaker's chair?

Does America really want a drunkard who is not very smart in the Speaker's chair?

LOL Sheila... I can't remember who said this previously but it was funnier than hell...

The way he's always got his chin resting on his chest - he looks like he's trying to stifle a *burp*!

Cute fisty!

I don't know how primaries are in other states, but in my state when you go to vote in the primary you have to declare which party ballot you want. We were choosing candidates for an open senate seat. The Democratic seat was pretty well set (with someone who had never run for federal office before) so most people chose to vote in the Republican primary to choose the Republican candidate. One was a guy who had been in the house for 20+ years and to say the least is very corrupt, but since he was running for a senate seat was claiming not to be a Washington insider. Unfortunately he won his primary probably because people probably voted for him because they thought they had heard his name somewhere before. So much for "voting the bums out". We had a chance to get new blood, but Republicans chose the corrupt politician for their candidate for the senate.

All this to say, the numbers of people who voted Republican or Democratic in primaries doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to how they will vote in the general election.

That's a two year old talking point Dave. Please do try to keep up with the rest of us your falling behind.

Obama didn't lose the press, the press is busy doing what it has been doing for 20 years--chatter about the irrelevant, the controversial, emotion, clothes he wears nonsense while ignoring most of the important news.

Irony is lost dept. #213

Jody, Iowa

Obama didn't lose the press, the press is busy doing what it has been doing for 20 years--chatter about the irrelevant, the controversial, emotion, clothes he wears nonsense while ignoring most of the important news.

in reply, a post from Feisty;

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
Well isn't this brilliant? Can't attack the message - so ATTACK the messengers...

__________________________________________________________________________________

sorry, but it cuts both ways. 20 years? 1990? What happened in 1990 to transform the press into this disinformation machine? Did they suffer a lapse from the campaign in 2008 and the inaugrial months where they were comparing the president to LINCOLN, FDR, JFK (Your favorite president here) that they have now recovered from?

Dick Cheney required that all TV's in his hotel be tuned to FOX when he traveled. Just think, now many here SHARE the Dick's disdain for that "irrelevant" MSM...who'd a thunk it!

What happened? That's easy, Republicans taught the press with Whitewater that they were able to dig up scandals that scored ratings. After all, "Drudge rules our world." http://newsbusters.org/node/7906 So you've got ratings pulling in that direction while Conservatives push in the same direction by working the refs (media). http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2005/05/b711509.html

Oh, and since Conservatives are fond of Fox has better ratings than this or that news organization it's clear that Fox IS part of the MSM. The same is true of all those Conservative talkers who claim to be on the "outside" while bragging about the size of their...audiences.

It's all part of the Conservative agenda of destroying rational discussion of any subject to increase their chances of success.

JBDMIA

Based on your many almost identical posts on this topic, YOU'RE the one who seems to be an avid fox news devotee.

335 MILLION people in our country-less than 1% watch msnbc and fox combined...

most people get their info from sources other than the ones you're evidently obsessed with.

How often do the conservatives on the board quote fox news? It is almost always someone who ACTUALLY watches msnbc doing the quoting. some would call that ironic, but often irony is lost here...

Good attempt at projection dangerfield. You're the one who described Fox as not being part of the MSM. I'm merely pointing out that you're being disingenuous. As usual.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Forgive me but in your desire to "win" your "debates" you exhibit the unfortunate habit of misquoting and mischaracterizing other's words to a point that even attempting a rational response becomes an exercise in futility.

Yesterday you mistook my reply for Nashville Fan's, resulting in yet another of your "EMILY LITELLA (from the original SNL weekend update skits) moments (Oh, someone else said that? NEVER MIND!)

and If I have ever posted that fox wasn't a part of the msm, I was obviously VERY mistaken, so please help me by POSTING THE QUOTE.

It's no bother to me if you have an ax to grind, but before you go all smug and "as usual " on me, how about actually having something beyond poor reading comprehension?

Have a great day!

"Dick Cheney required that all TV's in his hotel be tuned to FOX when he traveled. Just think, now many here SHARE the Dick's disdain for that "irrelevant" MSM...who'd a thunk it!"

Now you'll claim that you weren't expressing an opinion when you wrote that, because you stubbornly refuse to admit that you've taken a position...ever. Yet here you are, day after day making posts that clearly are meant to express an opinion...but you won't say what that opinion is. Oiliness is one of the least endearing parts of the Conservative opinion maker but it's important to not be pinned down facts.

And if asked about that I'll insist I was referring to Dick Cheney.

Birdman

Intellect-Whiner Obama

Character-Whiner Obama

Leadership-Whiner Obama

Policies-Whiner Obama

Largest Golf Tab-Whiner Obama

Brown Pigmentation-Whiner Obama

Bow wow-Whiner Obama

Birdman2010

Obama vs Boehner:

• Intellect- Winner Obama
• Character- Winner Obama
• Leadership- Winner Obama
• Policies- Winner Obama
• Largest Bar Tab- Winner Boehner
• Orange Pigmentation- Winner Boehner

Great Post and a very comprehensive comparison. President Obama bets Bohener in every category where leadership, compassion and commitment is compared. Bohneor is a crying, delusion, drunkard stuck in the past. Hell Nah, Bohener can't be the speaker of the house!!!

Beverly,

When Secretary of State Clinton hammers Prez Obama over the dangers of huge deficits on national security, I believe you just lost your case. You progressives have a problem with reality.

Super post Birdman!

I can't help but laugh that the right wing nuts who can't come up with an orignal thought of their own if their very lives depended on it...

Nope... much easier to cut and paste someone else's thoughts (and yes I'm l@@king at you Dangerfield)!

Leave it to the right to claim the left has a problem with reality

Sometimes, afloatinasea, you right-wingers just don't compute

... or do anything that makes a lick of sense

dangerfield have a thought of his own, get real the only thoughts danger has is either from Fox or another nutty poster.

You forgot golf handicap--winner Boehner

Afloatinasea

And you Rebs had no problem creating the bulk of this debt did you and the deficit. If you back 30 years, you have 4 Repubs some w/ 2 terms compared to 3 Dem and only one w/ 2 terms. And the one w/ 2 terms created a surplus that your boy, the Lil Shrub destroyed by creating more debt. But the biggest debter creator by far is that traitor Reagan. Selling weapons to the Iranian and claiming he didn't remember. Thats either a lie or the senility setting in. Hell George Bush Senior said Reagan's economic policies we're "Voodoo Economics" remember that? So before you start on issues of debt, look at your own past. As for leadership, if you consider letting the terrorists hit us, letting Bin Laden escape, putting the troops through the grinder w/ tour after tour, not paying for either war, deregulating the banks and energy industries and filling the MMS w/ goons from those industries is leadership, go right ahead.

What you fail to recognize or are unwilling to recognize is obstruction and compromise doesn't lead to good bills.

Another good one Fisty.

Boehner won't be Speaker of the House because Cantor won't let him be. Cantor has already bought and paid for almost all Republican House members.

Great post, Endurance. It is my understanding there were quite a few Muslims who died on 9/11; some were in the towers, some were firefighters.

endurance

Very nice but typical progressive BS. The Koran burning preacher is an idiot. The Mosque builders are idiots.

Your reasoning about Muslims dying on the 9-11 attack as a reason for justifying the Mosque is ridiculous. Why would any Muslim's family want to have a Mosque built so close to where their family member died by Moslem terrorists who did it in the name of Allah?

Your post just proves that progressives are naive, arrogant and basically so far removed from everyday life. Tell me, would you complain if Moslem's burned bibles.

Really, afloat? I honestly hope that you are not so dense, or "privileged" that you would not see the absurdity of your post. I hope that your post is just an attempt at playing devil's advocate just for the sake of playing devil's advocate. But just in case you really have never had to count yourself as an outlier or a part of a minority group - here is the reason I think that Mosque should be built as close to Ground Zero as the nearest Church, Chapel, or Synagogue will be or has been built: It is what is right and FAIR, and what is guaranteed by The Constitution of the United States.

Please explain to me why those Muslim victims' families wouldn't want a holy place close to the area where their loved ones died in order to pray for their souls, or to give themselves peace of mind? Why wouldn't Muslims want to be able to worship in their fashion the same way Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Rastas, etc. are allowed to worship, pray and mourn near Ground Zero? If it is not allowed, does that mean that Christians aren't allowed to pray at the domestic terrorist site in Oklahoma City? Of course not - it's preposterous and illogical. And since the site that the Mosque is being built on is what is considered private property - it really is NONE OF ANY OF OUR BUSINESS what is being built there.

Like I said before, only people who have never had to witness the total unfairness of being a minority (non-Caucasian, gay, female, handicapped, etc.) would be so blind to the effects of "white, Christian privilege."

And no, I would not complain if Muslims burned Holy Bibles (note: I was raised in South Carolina as a Baptist Christian), although I do not think it would be right or fair. I don't mind if people burn Holy Korans in general - they have that right. But it has been stated time, and time and time again that this stunt this Florida pastor is pulling will DEFINITIVELY BE A DIRECT CAUSE IN INCREASED DANGER TO MY FELLOW SERVICE MEN AND WOMEN, AND THAT I WILL CONTINUE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. When the Intelligence community, the Defense Department, the State Department, AND the President are all warning that having this demonstration will ENDANGER THE LIVES of MY soldiers (and yours, too) - who are fighting in an Islamic country, away from home - THEN I WILL VOICE MY DISGUST AND ANGER, and tell anyone who continues to promote this demonstration just to make a point that they are being SELFISH, IDIOTIC, UNGRATEFUL AND UNPATRIOTIC.

BECAUSE I WANT EVERY LAST SOLDIER THAT IS OVERSEAS FIGHTING FOR MY RIGHT TO VOICE THIS OPINION TO COME HOME - as my grandmother would say - IN THE SAME WAY WE SENT THEM OVER THERE - HEALTHY, FIT, SANE AND SAFE!

Float -

You're obsession with belittling people is getting in the way of your ability to communicate.

A place of worship might be exactly what SHOULD be close to ground zero. From my perspective, all of the major world religions share a message of peace. Perhaps a place of worship so close to a place of horror would help to calm the radical elements that are within ALL of the worlds major religions.

From your posts - I sense you that there are people who might label you a "radical". I know you'll only skewer me for this - but perhaps you might focus your energies on finding a way to quiet your fellow radicals from all parts of life instead of making more with your inflammatory remarks.

Terry

This man is as much a man of the cloth as politicians are honest.

afloatinasea,

That's funny, thanks for making laugh but so damn true!

afloutinasea,

And how's that Trickle Down (VooDoo) Economics & Deregulation working out for us so far?

Thirty years of that have killed the economy!

Ben in Oil City

Well Ben the Trickle Down Economics was working just fine. I guess you must have forgotten the prosperity that was generated under that particular plan. Now if you want to assign blame on anybody you better start with me, you and the rest of our fellow Americans.

Ben we Americans are our own worst enemies. Two things started this mess about 30 years ago. Lousy management and powerful unions. Management did not reinvest as heavily as it should have in new equipment and unions would not yield on work rules and reasonable wages.

Foreign materials started to flow from Europe first and then from Asia. Guess what Ben their products were less expensive and better made. Now the real a$$ kicker comes in. When domestic sources improved their quality their cost went up. So we Americans would buy a cheaper product but not buy an American product of equal or better cost because IT COST MORE. So American companies moved their operations overseas or purchased products from overseas to stay competitive and the rest you know about.

Ben In Oil City PA

You liberals make no sense. People can have jobs and money only if someone has a business and make money. If they get wealthy off of it, they earned it. If they invest the profits and spend, then it trickles down to the workers. If the business owner keeps that wealth locked away without reinvesting or spending, then they get richer and there is no trickle down, but how is that any worse than them not having the business and not money in the first place. You libs are so jealous that someone else has the initiative and brain power that you don't have to start and run a business, you can't see straight.

Sure afloatinasea, wealth may have been generated but NONE of it trickled down. http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/09/gdp-per-capita.html

Oh, and while you're looking at that graph that shows how much median income has flatlined under Conservative ideas you'll note that the slope of GDP growth really didn't change after 1980--those at the top just don't have to share it with the rest of us.

That's 2 Conservative fairy tales in one...that Conservative economics increases GDP and that it makes people of ordinary means better off.

afloatinasea

I agree with Ben that Trickle Down (VooDoo) Economics & Deregulation is not, has not, and will not work out for US. Thirty years of that have killed the economy because unlike American products, foreign products are not quality plus the off shore companies do not contribute to the Tax base. Employment and productivity numbers are the key indicators of the economy. George created

It's just not COMMON SENSE neither is it good for America. Deregulation and outsourcing is bad for the health of the economy. Our country deserves more than it and obstruction from the Party of "NOPE".

________________________________________________

Beverly,

When Secretary of State Clinton hammers Prez Obama over the dangers of huge deficits on national security, I believe you just lost your case. You progressives have a problem with reality.

afloat,

Are you aware that SoS Hillary Clinton also said...

It is our patriotic duty to suspend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans; this would cut the deficit by $700 Billion.....

Hillary just like our President has redirected US and the world back to reality. That is what a leaders do; lead.

President Obama has created more jobs in this recession than Georgie Boy did in 8 year. Yeah! Plus, Georgie boy had a surplus; and still Georgie boy managed to use his voodoo to make jobs go away!!!

It made me better off, but then again I work my a$$ off 80 hours a week or more to EARN my 6 figure income. Something I have striven to do since I was discharged. Me and my GED. And I as I am known to rant, Its my stuff I worked and earned it! You cant have it. work and earn your own stuff.

Trickle-down economics:

Give money to the most wealthy so they can invest in Credit Default Swaps, which generate zero jobs but promise the quickest return on investment, like all gambling.

The resulting bankruptcies trickle-down to the rest of us.

Or you can make your money like Mitt Romney, but using your inherited wealth to buy companies that you dissassemble for profit. If people lose their jobs so what?

President Obama, wont be the only one, we all are going to get a DOSE of Boehner. President Obama is a six figure Lawyer, he has nothing to worry about. But tell me what are you going to do?, the Republican's and the Koch's has plans for poor American.