Heartfelt, excellent I.R.

Well said I.R. and food for thought for those who truly want to bring honor front and center. Anyone who visits any veteran's cemetary , Arlington, Gettysburg, Normandy and looks over the sea of white tombstones, has to be struck by, what a waste of life. Some wars are more worthy of the effort and some not so much.

In today's world, we should be able to resolve most perceived threats through diplomacy. This, I know is not the way for some, who prefer to take up arms, shoot and ask questions later. There is no honor in that, there is no honor in sending young people to fight, if you yourself have not fought in war and experienced its hell, or have a child to send to fight for your beliefs.

We don't seem to learn, as much as we honor our troops, we still send them off in our name to fight and not think of the consequences. There is no honor in sitting on the sidelines and sending someone else to fulfil your wishes.

Our President gave a thoughtful and excellent speech for those who wished to hear it in the manner it was intended. It is time to turn the page.

It makes me sad that we were assured endlessly before entering this war that we had "learned the lessons" that all those on that black wall paid for. Immediately then we embarked upon a war that wasn't necessary against an adversary that wasn't a threat, ignoring the assessments of those who actually knew what it would take to win and pretending every innocent Iraqi we killed didn't immediately create multiple enemies among their friends and loved ones.

The only "lesson" that was learned by the incompetent Neocons who brought us this sad chapter was that we don't lose until we leave, so they never intended to leave. The ridiculous claim by Republicans that this is really GW Bush's victory are both tone deaf and idiotic. We'd still be there if someone hadn't stood up to those who said anyone in opposition to the slaughter were traitors and cry "ENOUGH!"

If that's the only thing we take away from this sorry spectacle it'll be sad, but a step in the right direction.

IR;

Very well thought out. The truth hurts sometimes. We will not forget those that have fallen to keep this country safe. That is our most precious blood and they need to be honored and remembered for all time for their ultimate sacrifice. Thank you for the wake up call.

Excellent I.R. It just saddens my heart. I'm very proud of are men and women who sacrifices their lives for us.

Great post again I.R.

IR - As earthly speakers go, you're pretty eloquent yourself. But you're right, words just aren't enough at times. The only ones that ever came close for me were spoken 147 years ago - I was thinking about them last nght, in fact, as I watched the debate over whether or not to build a casino a half mile from Gettysburg Battlefield. (And I'll leave everyone else to their own thoughts as to what is a greater insult to"hallowed ground" - a community center with a prayer room or an overgrown bar with slot machines and roulette wheels) I was going to just quote some excerpts but realized you really can't take anything out of context with this one:

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth".

The world does long remember what Lincoln said there. Very appropriate to the discussion of war.

JoAnne: Excellent post. I didn't know about the casino. You have your priorities in the right place.

Thanks for that reminder, JoAnne. One of the things I admire about the Gettysburg Address is that in a time when "speechifying" could go on for hours, President Lincoln said what he did so succinctly and then was able to stop!

IR and JoAnne

Both of you have posted words that should be remembered forever, Lincoln's speech, since he was a President, shall stand forever, but the words of IR's should be writ large and spread wide.

Thank You BOTH for your posts, they are heartfelt and speak to us of the times.

I would only add that to the number of dead we have several tens of thousands of lives, still 'living' that have been shattered by the war in Iraq, IEDs and PTSD will continue to shape America far into the future. Shattered families and shattered dreams all so one small group could profit handsomely from their illegal war of choice. America has been shattered by this war, emotionally and economically, as well as the lives of those who fought. We are paying a terrible price for the lies of the previous administration and I Thank the Present Administration for seeing reality and getting us out from a permanent war which would have benefited no one but the Military Industrial Complex and their lobbyists and beholden politicians.

My thanks and appreciation to each and every one of you for joining with me this morning and adding your thoughts. You’ll represent the better Angels in all of us. You’ll make an old country boy proud

Glad to stand with you IR,...shoulder to shoulder.

JoAnne-I can't help but think that the casino and the mosque have one thing in common:

just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I am left wondering what ever happened to common sense and respect for the feelings of others.

IR--this is wonderful, moving, eloquent. Glad to know you-even if only through cyberspace.

Joanne PA--thank you for the timely reminder of Lincoln's words.

Last night after the presidents speech, i was taken back to 1974 the official end to the Vietnam war. i reflected on the 58thousand who lost there lives in Vietnam. i was in tears thinking about a guy named, Sullivan Watson. he was killed April 8 1968, 2 weeks before his tour was to end. i could not help but think about how his father went in to such a deep depression over the loss of his only son, and only child. (he inlisted) Mr Watson died 3 months after his son, his name sake.

i was left wondering about the parents of those 4400 fallen angles. i wondered how many fathers and mothers lost there boys, there boys who some had not yet become men. some who had not had the chance to marry, have children, enjoy life, life we take for granted. Sullivan never had the chance to live, have kids, enjoy life. his soul is still over in that rice patty where he was struck down.

As the president said that all combat has ended, the combat in the field is over, but the combat parents must face everyday with out there little boys, will last for ever. this is not over for them.

so today i want to take a moment to reflect on those parents, who for now till the day they pass must face the world with out there boys, after mr Watson died, i always remember seeing Mrs Watson and no matter how she smiles, waved and acted like life was ok, i will never forget how brave she was to get up every morning knowing that war took her son, and the affects of war took her Husband.

As we reflect on last night and we see our men and women come home, shake there hand, tell them how much you thank them, make sure they know who much we appreciate there hard work and sacrifices. If you know parents of lost angles, please makes sure you make it known that we as Americans appreciate and honor there service, and will pray for there souls.

Mrs Watson Dies in 1987 a very lonely woman.

From 1 Redneck to Another, TYTYTY for those kind words.

America's Troops are the Best, Bar None!

Independent,

What was dishonorable about "the group of the dishonorable on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial"? What was said, what was done by the group of hundreds of thousands of fellow Americans that was dishonorable? Or is calling them dishonorable just childish name calling to marginalize them simply because they have a different viewpoint. Please "Bear Witness" great American Independent Redneck.

Gingerbread Mama,

I agree, we should be able to settle issues with diplomacy. George Bush agrees with you too. A re-current theme of his however, for diplomacy to work, words have to have meaning. After twelve years, sanctions, dog-and-pony inspections, 17 resolutions, etc. of diplomacy, what diplomacy was left to do?

Bottom line - Hussein didn't care and didn't believe anybody had the will to stop him. Do you seriously think for one second that if Hussein had actually believed Bush would do what he did, Hussein would not have complied? Absurd.

Bush was right, words do have to meaning for diplomacy to work. Sadly, Bush wasted that lesson when he lost support of the people. He became irrelevent and his words no longer had meaning. We are now where we were before. Diplomacy, as evidenced by Iran's unchecked nuclear ambition is worthless - Obama's diplomacy, Obama's words have no meaning, (except to the meaningless liberals.)

Bob when you started your post out with the hundreds of thousands lie you lost all credibility. Lies don't impress anybody Bob except teabaggers.

Well done, IR. Good words and here here.

Mo,

MSNBC reported 300,00. I went with that. Call Brian Williams and the hosts here at FR liars if you want.

You didn't mention the content, you just fished for something that might hopefully be used to marginalize the person, not discuss the issue. Typical liberal stuff.

BTW- Liberals represent 20% of the population, Conservatives 42%. I am not trying to find credibility, or convince any of the 20%. I don't come here for "well said" validations and group hugs. If any of the other 38% happen to read my comments and find them more credible than yours, well that works for me.

Thanks for your comments Mo!

Thank you IR that was a great post.

Bob, Glenn Beck is a publicity hound plain and simple. He has no words of wisdom to pass along. Sorry.

Wakeup, wakeup, Independent didn't mention Glenn Beck. I didn't mention Glenn Beck.

Typical vanilla effort to re-direct the discussion and obfuscate the issue.

Bob, you have no credibility with me,

Shame on you for swallowing hook line and sinker the nonsense spewed by Fox and its employees.

In answer to your question about the lack of diplomacy before Iraq...we should have tried harder and stayed home.

No bob, MSNBC reported that estimates ranged widely from 80,000 to 300,000.

STS

What was dishonorable about "the group of the dishonorable on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial"? What was said, what was done by the group of hundreds of thousands of fellow Americans that was dishonorable? Or is calling them dishonorable just childish name calling to marginalize them simply because they have a different viewpoint. Please "Bear Witness" great American Independent Redneck.

Bob where were the hundreds of thousands standing on those steps . All I saw was a small group headed by Mr. Beck who has by word and deed and his very words on those steps has repeatedly shown a lack of respect for his country, his fellow Americans, and the very gentleman that both I and many others have taken oath to obey as the Commander and Chief of our great nation. So yes Mr. Beck and the individuals that stood on those steps with him represent the worst kind of Dishonor that I can think of. Everybody else was standing in front of the purported demi- god on the grass and under the trees.

Since you have decided to include those individuals in the group that I so I so obviously wasn’t talking about I’ll just answer that by giving the answer that I would have given to anyone who asked me to participate in such foolishness. Why would I allow my honor that I have worked and fought for all my life, learned at a honorable mans knee and built and nutured by my association with many other honorable folks to be misused by being any where in the close proximity to such a collection of dishonorable people much less allowing them to somehaw be able to construe that I would some how support them in any way shape or form. As for as the rest of the folks that you have included they’ll have to speak for them selves.

So basically, IR, they are dishonorable because you say so in a bunch of flowery speech.

You have a way with words, and your first post had some merit.

Until you decided to dishonor yourself, by dishonoring your fellow Americans. Whether it was 80k or 300k (the Park Service estimated 300k, btw) on those steps, they were doing what you claim to have fought to protect in this country and that is enjoying their Constitutionally protected rights to freedom of speech and assembly.

Since you are unable to provide anything but sweeping generalizations about what you find so dishonorable, you leave no real choice but for people to assume that the rights you fought for you would prefer to have reserved for people with whom you agree and all else silenced.

Gingerbread Mamma

I back you 150%. Some people can be such an a@@!!!!

Bob,

Excellent response and Questions for our liberal Friends here at FR, as you noticed none of them answered your Questions.. The reason they didnt answer yoru questions is because Not one of them have the three things that Glen Beck Talked about on the Steps of the Lincoln Memorial, to them they think that they are the only ones that believe have the right to give any kind of speech anywhere in this nation.. They lack Honor, Faith, and Charity, They believe they are the Moral Character of this country, yet you and I know they they realy have little voice in this country.. This is what upsets them.

The Majority of American people dont believe as they do so they come here with their Rants to make themselves Feel Better.. All one has to do is look at their Heros at MSNBC.. Just a Bunch of White Liberals at Msnbc that Tell their folowers how bad Fox news is, Ask yourself for a news Station that is supposed to care so much about the the Minority why are all their main Anchors White, Minoritys are not Well Represented on MSNBC, They will continue to tell you how bad everyone else is all the while Covertly Keeping the Minority down, convinicing the Minorities that those people over at Fox are Bad people. It is MSNBC that talks the Talk but doesnt walk the walk, Msnbc and the people that watch that station Continue to Keep the Minorites in this country in Finacial Bondage, MSNBC preaches MORE hate of other people then i have ever seen in my life.....

Steve and Bob too, I am not your liberal friend, I am not your friend of any stripe. I'm choosy whom I call friend.. and by your tone I would not want to be your friend.

STS

I.R. Nice except for the part where you dishonored your fellow citizen's right to assemble. Even if it is about something you may or may not agree with. You I.R. are not any different than they are using our troops to get a lame point across by playing on people's emotions. Just in case it was missed here it is in quotes."Recently we were all treated to the display of a group of the dishonorable on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial purporting to speak about God, Honor and Love of Country". SHAME ON YOU IR It was after all the veterans who fought to give us this right.

I.R.

Grew up in the 70's and will never forget the horror of VietNam.

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

Gingerbread Mamma,

You see that is the problem, you seem to think that people that Disagree politically can't be Friends.

As a minority, i have pity on you i feel sorry that you have closed your door to the Charity, faith, and Honor that many minorites that dont believe as you do politically, It was obvious to me many years ago that the democrats didnt have my best interest at heart, they wanted me to become a Victim someone they could represent and tell me how much they wanted to help me.. Well i dont see myself as a Victim of any other person of Color, I drive my own car, in this land i get to choose how successful i am.. If i chose to sit around and always complain about how unfair things are i would get no where,, However if i apply myself i can make as much money that i want..

Respectfully Gingerbread mamma, I never close the door on Friendship to anyone that i have never met, But for me i will never take advice from people that always try and tell me i am a Victim.

all one has to do is look at the Contributors to FR.. 3 White men always stirring the soup in a political manner to keep people divided

Yep Waye I was one of 'em a while back. Missed being one of the names on that Wall by a hair a couple of times. Some other friends of mine didn't. Any other critiques you interested in giving voice to this afternoon cause that one ain't getting very far.

Becks original plan was a political rally on that day. It was announced in November 2009. It only became a faith and honor rally in the past three weeks.

Sarah Palin was initially ofered monetary compensation, but when it became all about religion, she was asked to appear free of charge. Has anyone noticed just how long she was at the rally? Spoke for 15 minutes and then she was GONE.

And I just love how you conservate/republican christians drool all over Beck but then turn around and slam Mormonism for being unchristian.

Who on this vine has drooled over Beck?

As usual, your hate prevents you from getting the point.

Steve, exactly which party are you referring to as having Charity , faith and honor? It can't be the republican party.

Charity? when they would not vote to extend unemployment benefits to those who have lost their jobs and it is not another out ther for them to get? Yes, that is real charity, especially seeing as the unemployed have paid into the system while they were employed.

Answer something for me...if you were to lose your job, and you have exhausted your means to support yourself, what are you going to do to survive. I know get another job is the answer, but tell me...just where are you going to find it? The job market is saturated with the unemployed. There are not enough jobs go around. What happens if you don't get one..tell me..what do you do??

Thewaythingsare

Chairty, Honor , Faith,

these dont belong to either party.. They belong to people.. they dont belong to the Govt. they belong to individuals.. Govt can and never wil provide these things.. they are something an Individual practices every day in their life........... It is not the Govt just to provide for a persons needs or wants.......

If you want these things you have to find it amongst the people.. Cause their is no honor in Govt til the people get it back themselves.. A

Steve-505729

Gingerbread Mamma,

You see that is the problem, you seem to think that people that Disagree politically can't be Friends.

As a minority, i have pity on you i feel sorry that you have closed your door to the Charity, faith, and Honor that many minorites that dont believe as you do politically, It was obvious to me many years ago that the democrats didnt have my best interest at heart, they wanted me to become a Victim someone they could represent and tell me how much they wanted to help me.. Well i dont see myself as a Victim of any other person of Color, I drive my own car, in this land i get to choose how successful i am.. If i chose to sit around and always complain about how unfair things are i would get no where,, However if i apply myself i can make as much money that i want..

In other words, the miilions of people that are not doing well, according to people like you are just, "" spoiled people, lazy and inferior people""

Alex..

In other words, the miilions of people that are not doing well, according to people like you are just, "" spoiled people, lazy and inferior people""

I never used those words.. .. you did.

Bear witness- Excellent comments.

My own opinion is I ignore the platides of those who could have enlisted but never did, and really appreciate the kids and their families who have had to live thru this hell. I am amazed at the quality of the kids who put their lives on the line so we all get a chance to exercise our constitutional rights.

If you are really into war, enlist, make it thru the training and then see what it really is like to away from your family, the internet, running water, and interacting with people who dont speak english, flies, dust , bordom, lonliness, fear...and then understand what sacrifice really means.

"...you leave no real choice but for people to assume that the rights you fought for you would prefer to have reserved for people with whom you agree and all else silenced."

EVERY ONE of the regular, Liberal posters here has opined that Glenn Beck has the right to say whatever he believes even though he's despicable, even though he dishonors the legacy of Dr. King and the entire Civil Rights movement. But that's OK, baseless accusations are essential to the Conservative strategy. Without them we might actually focus on Beck's selfish agenda that feeds only those at the very top of the food chain. Distraction is necessary to keep us from seeing that we're being subjugated to the wishes of the new aristocracy day by little by little, day by day, as our government becomes less democratic, more controlled by monied interests.

Steve, you did not answer the question

you never asked a question..

You tried to Attibue words to me i never used.. now let me point it out one more time..

In other words, the miilions of people that are not doing well, according to people like you are just, "" spoiled people, lazy and inferior people""

these are ytour words Exactly how you typed them. You tried assosiate me .. but saying "people like me"

No Question mark anywhere..

John

There we go again, you assume I MUST be "conservative" because I won't ignore the false tolerance without saying something. Reread your own post, filled with name calling and intolerance.

I don't agree with much Glenn Beck says, either.

But I do NOT accuse him of being dishonorable. Who DO you trust?

I didn't say you were Conservative, I made a statement about Conservative strategy.

Who did I call a name? Of whom am I intolerant?

And yes, I consider Glenn Beck dishonorable. His volume of work speaks for itself. In spite of that I didn't say he isn't entitled to the same rights as everyone else and neither did IR.

John, here's your post, in it's entirety. You were responding to me, and said the highlighted portion.

EVERY ONE of the regular, Liberal posters here has opined that Glenn Beck has the right to say whatever he believes even though he's despicable, even though he dishonors the legacy of Dr. King and the entire Civil Rights movement. But that's OK, baseless accusations are essential to the Conservative strategy. Without them we might actually focus on Beck's selfish agenda that feeds only those at the very top of the food chain. Distraction is necessary to keep us from seeing that we're being subjugated to the wishes of the new aristocracy day by little by little, day by day, as our government becomes less democratic, more controlled by monied interests.

You have called Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin (to name two) various insulting names on various vines. Why, can you not build your case on facts? If I was going to build a case against either, I could build one on facts, without resorting to insults. Who exactly was being subjugated by whom at Beck's rally? And who exactly does the Civil Rights movement belong to, that Glenn Beck is dishonoring it?

Honestly, the whole paragraph sounds like it was lifted from a Rage Against the Machine song.

What I am in full agreement with you on is the issue of monied influence in our government.

Do you think there's been any improvement in that issue over the past 20 months, given what went on with the healthcare and fin reg bills?

Streve you are loooking at the wrong post...I used several question marks....

"Answer something for me...if you were to lose your job, and you have exhausted your means to support yourself, what are you going to do to survive. I know get another job is the answer, but tell me...just where are you going to find it? The job market is saturated with the unemployed. There are not enough jobs go around. What happens if you don't get one..tell me..what do you do??"

Thewaythingsare..

You see that would never happen to me because i ahve a very Close Family and Friends.. My neighbors are wonderful people.. The community that lives around me. yes. that includes my Family would take care of each other.. We depend on each other everyday. it is just not in Hard economic times taht we depend on each other. But every day of the year.. We dont depend on Govt to take care of our Needs.

and yes. i was looking at another post..

and it would also never happen to me because it doesn't matter to me what i am doing. I would find a job doing something to even if it was for minimum Wage.. I would Cancel the Cable to my House and cut out of my Budget all the things that i dont really Need.. if i had to work 4 different Minimum wage jobs for me to get by that is what i would do.. and i woudln't Complain about having to do it.. I would just do it because that is the type of person i am if i could only afford to eat Rice and beans thats what i would do......... but i would get by and do it without Depending on Govt..

Thats what Family and Friends are for.. to look out for each other

Recently we were all treated to the display of a group of the dishonorable on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial purporting to speak about God, Honor and Love of Country.

What a disgusting human being you are. The self appointed god of honor. Hundreds of thousands of people gathered in peaceful fellowship. One of the reasons for the gathering was to honor the men and women who serve(d) our country with honor and self sacrifice. I saw no omission of the brave souls whose names appear on that wall you referenced. You specifically made it a point to belittle that sentiment and the respect given. Pathetic. And 38 of your fellow brain dead idiots joined you.

What a fine group of excrement you all may grow up to be one day.

Or maybe you were referring to Sharpton?

Steve...

I respect your answers but unfortunately they are realistic for you but not for most americans. What about those who have no family as a support system. Do you think that they you should be left on their own with no help whatsoever?

Compassion is a beautiful thing but unfortunately we live in a world where it does not exist as much as it should.

The whole purpose behind my post is that we need a govt that has compassion for their fellow man. I do not support those who do not try to help themselves, but I do have compassion for those whose lives have been turned upside down by todays economy and I hate for conservatives to assume that anyone who excepts an unemployment check is looking for a handout.

You also must have a ton of energy if you can hold down 4 minimum wage 4 full time jobs at the same time...and by the way, they are not the easy to comeby these days either....and I doubt they could pay your mortgage and necessary utilities and put food on the table. And leave enough time to look for a job suitable to your career. This is a reality for alot of people.

Just some food for thought....

Well Steve, that is wonderful. You are so lucky to have and be able to depend on all that support. However, did it ever occur to you that there are millions who are not so lucky? And no, they are not illegal workers.

Has it ever occured to you that someone can lose an extremely well paid job and 16 months later still cannot find suitable work, yes they collect unemployment, that doesn't pay the mortgage and the cost of COBRA, and that some of the family cannot help as they have high expenses in raising their own children. And guess what Steve, they are registered and voting Republicans.

Hard luck happens to all kinds, life happens to people, it is my firm belief that 99% of people do not set out to default on their mortgages, their car loans, etc. but it does happen, and in a time like this, we have to help and understand these situations.

Working 4 minimum wage jobs, if you can find them, dont pay enough to match unemployment compensation, depending on where one lives determines how much is paid and what choice of jobs available, so of course all the frills are cut.

Try to find within yourself, to walk a mile, no, just a few steps in someone else's shoes.

I watch my President last night announce the end of the combat mission in Iraq. Personally, I thought he was way to kind to previous administration that got us into this war to begin with. The right was to claim credit for this. Bull Sh!t. President Bush could have pulled our troops out anytime while he was in charge. He did not and continued his mismanagement that ultimately lead to 4,403 dead soldiers and tens of thousands wounded.

The Iraq war was built on a pillar of lies by the Bush Administration, not only to the American people, but to our Armed Forces and his own administration. As far as this old sailor is concerned, I lay the deaths of our most precious blood at the feet of the Bush and Chenney.

Bush lied about the connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda

Bush lied about the connection of Saddam to 9/11

Bush lied about Weapons of Mass Destruction – Iraq had none

Bush lied about Saddam being a threat, he was defeated by Desert Storm and was bottled up where we could watch him. He was no immediate threat at all.

Bush lied about the development of Nuclear Weapons in Iraq and the purchase of Yellow Cake and other material needed to develop Nuclear weapons

Bush lied about Mobile Biological Weapons – No Biological Weapons ever found in Iraq

Bush lied in 2003 when he declared Mission Accomplished

Sorry GW, you get NO kudos from me.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Sorry GW, you get NO kudos from me.

Yes siree!!! The nerve of the jaded right wing war profiteers and capitalist who have no respect for the lives of the people whom they took in vain. To give Georgie boy, credit is an oxymoran. GW Bush Got a lot of credit from China.

The liberal base needs to realize our President has class and respect. I did not see him giving Georgie boy any credit.

IR, Jody, Navy, and Feisty: Excellent posts. I thought it showed class on the President's part that he called (phoned) Bush 43. There were many things he could have said about 43, but our President took the high road and complimented him for loving this country and caring about our troops. I haven't seen that quality of character from the conservative right. They just wanted to talk about giving Bush credit for the surge. President Obama went beyond that in his comments about Bush.

IR: When you have something to say...it comes right from the heart.

On the contrary...

- The Bush Administration ignored Afghanistan.

- The Bush Administration let Osama bin Laden get away.

- The Bush Administration wanted us to believe that Saddam Hussein and Iraq were accomplices in 9/11.

- The Bush Administration wanted us to believe Saddam Hussein had a chemical weapons program and a fledgling nuclear weapons program.

- The Bush Administration fabricated intelligence about Iraq purchasing yellow-cake uranium.

- The Bush Administration lied to Congress in order to obtain an authorization for use of military force.

- The Bush Administration ordered troops to invade based on a pack of lies.

- The Bush Administration found no WMDs.

- The Bush Administration altered the narrative and fabricated new reasons why we invaded when the old reasons no longer fit.

- The Bush Administration called for a surge to give the Iraqi government room to operate and to end sectarian violence and it failed to do either.

- The Bush Administration sent 4487 men and women to their deaths as a result of their lies.

They want to claim credit? THEY CAN HAVE IT!

The spin just does not quit. I agree Ron that our President took the high road, once again, I watched some of the right wing pundits last night, they took the low road as usual. Not one gave President Obama any credit at all.

Now let us get he other 50,000 troops back home safe and sound, and then get those in Afghan back here ASAP as well.

We need to rebuild our country and cannot afford to be the worlds Police Department. They have to stand up for themselves at some point, we just cannot do it ALL, whether we want to or not.

President Obama's ability to take the high road regarding George Bush in the face of the treatment he has received from the conservatives is to me remarkable. They do not grant him the same respect of his patriotism or well-meaning intentions for our country.

To disagree with Mark & Ali---I hope we don't have to have endless discussions of did it make America safer and was it worth it. As the President said, people can have differing opinions of this and still be patriots and love their country. Otherwise, I can't see that anyone's opinion will be changed by such a discussion and it doesn't help us move forward.

Steeler Fan,

I agree. Time for debates on whether it was worth it and if it keeps us safer are moot. We cannot go back and change history. It is what it is, so to speak. Hopefully we have learned something from these two wars and move forward. It makes me mad that people hiding behind desks in Washington can with a stroke of a pen kill so many American lives for nothing other than some political point.

President Obama is never going to get any respect from the Republican Party. It is not their style. He disagrees with them and therefore is labeled a 'traitor" by them.

The neo-cons want to take credit for the surge and pulling the troops out, but they won't take credit or responsibility for all the lies that got us into that war in the first place. Just like the teabagger republicans, when something good happens they want to take credit for it, but when they've screwed everything up with their lies all they want is to blame someone else or ignore it. What hypocrites.

Mo 185;

You are 100% correct. The republicans never take responsibility for their actions. It is always somebody elses fault. Quite simply it is their lies and deceit that has put this great country in peril. Record National Debt, Deficits, lost jobs etc.

When will we learn.

Ron Old Redneck Daddy wisdom " If you don't believe it and aren't willing to live it then you best not say it"

as a (retired) United States Marine, i would like to say that all of you who are complementing Obama and discrediting GW are using far too much common sense, truth, and wisdom in this discussion. how come there is no fear mongering, name calling, cross wearing, and flag covering like is used by the other side. this is why you, me and the other majority of americans (liberal, progressive...) are losing the battle. maybe we need to choose another name for our party like the republicans did in choosing the "tea party" name. may i suggest the name "truth and common sense party"? thanks to our soldiers of which my son will soom be joining (army bootcamp) for doing a relative thankless job. we will continue to pay our taxes to buy you the tools and protection necessary to do the job youve been given and if you get hurt we will be there to support you as long as it takes.

Unfortunately, Bill, the part of our brains that comes up with cutesy nicknames for our party is severely underdeveloped.

My best to your son as he enters his chosen service to this country.

bill Good Wishes and Godspeed to the young man. Good on him

Bill, my best to your son, it is not an easy path he has chosen, no doubt you will be his inspiration. may he be safe from harm.

Bill,

As a disabled vet myself, I THANK YOU AND YOUR SON for your time (and time to be) in the Service. Even though we go for our Nation we have no control over where we are sent by the Civilians doing the sending. Your Service for our Nation is a Distinguished Honor to you, and again, I thank You!

May your Son have a good tour and stay safe from harm and see more of this world than most other Americans ever get the chance to do!

Bill 126;

Thank you for your service and my best wishes and thanks to your son as he embarks on his new adventure. May he stay safe and be well.

Also thank you for your post today. Well said and I agree.

Think you Bill and thanks to your son for his service to protect us and make us a better people.

Bill, Godspeed to you and your son.

Ind Red,

Bear witness. Yes. Folly. Absolutely not. And every one of the 4487 would tell so. Your witness of the Vienam Memorial is honorable. Your witness against the Iraq War and the 'Restore Honor' Rally are not. They are shameful.

As for the Potus, one thought, bor-ing.

Bill, thoughtful post. Godspeed to both you and your son; we'll be saying our prayers for him and all the others.

Bill 126

Godspeed to both you and your son. I will add him to my prayers for him and all the others. I know how it is my cousins son is over there.

Joe 738652

How dare you to say things like that.

When I think of the past admin....the first word to come to mind is SCARY!!!!!

"How does a President thank our military troops for all they did when the reasons for the Iraq War are murky at best."

How do all of you who thank our military troops for all they did when you insult our military troops' intelligence by listing line after line of the Commander-in-Chief's "supposed" lies as to why they volunteered.

Are you not actually saying, we are smarter than those who bought Bush's lies and signed up?

I know you will say they were misslead before the (your) truth came out. Really? What about all the troops that signed up after all the "Bush Lied" histrionics came out? Do you ever think about how these statements effect the families of those that didn't come back?

Just something to think about.

Thanks Bill and best of luck to your son and all the others serving.

No, I'm saying that I'm proud of all those who take the charge of defending AMERICA without regard to who we democratically choose to lead our government. I'm thankful that they are above petty politics and dedicated to serving our nation.

I'm saying they deserve better than self-serving aristocrats who misuse their patriotism AND the public trust to turn them into cannon fodder for no good reason.

As a citizen of the United States I owe them that.

Bob-1805084,

Your logic is faulty. You assert something that has not been mutually agreed to and connect things that are not connected. None of your conclusions logically follow from any of your premises and none of your premises have been proven to be true or even agreed to.

STS

John,

I didn't see your name on any post above so I doubt I was aware I was infering you said something you didn't say above. Thanks for saying that's not what you were not saying, though, and saying what you would have said if you would have actually said something.

Matthew,

Instead of being concerned that you are not known, see to be worthy of being known.

STS of course.

The speech was ok. Not much substance and a wooden delivery which seemed disconnected from the significance of the event. But ok in it's content.

"We are withdrawing in Iraq, escalating in Afghanistan, and the economy still sucks at home."

There, summed it up in a sentence for y'all. Good luck and stay safe to all our brave men and women still stuck in the middle east. May you come home soon.

Feisty,

Want to know what information Boehner and the republicans are collecting via their web sites to determine how they are going to frame their new Agenda.

Yesterday, after soliciting input from the GOP base, House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) announced that “the long-awaited Republican manifesto” will be released after lawmakers return to Washington in September. One part of that base that has been particularly vocal and influential is the Tea Party. But while some Republicans view the Tea Party as toxic to the GOP, House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) has fully embraced the Tea Party’s input, stating that members “represent the same values, concerns” of “tens of millions of other Americans” and that “we should listen to them, we should work with them and we should walk amongst them.”

The Tea Party group is creating a “Conservative voter guide” on the positions of candidates seeking office in upcoming elections in order to “rate, recommend, and endorse candidates” based on how they answer 15 questions. While such surveys may be fairly “mundane,” it’s the questions outlining the group’s priorities that provide, as Hickman puts it, “a hearty serving of insight with a side order of jaw drop”:

Now let’s hear those 15 questions. (The document states that the respondents should give one of the following answers: A = Agree; D = Disagree; U = Undecided; A* = Pro-life with exceptions of Rape or Incest, * = Added comments; NR = No Response; CR = Incumbents Conservative Rating.) This was from the State of Ohio.

1. The Right to Life is a Constitutional right, therefore innocent human beings should have legal protection from conception until natural death. If you hold any exceptions please state them.
2. The regulation of Carbon Dioxide in our atmosphere should be left to God and not government and I oppose all measures of Cap and Trade as well as the teaching of global warming theory in our schools.
3. Marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman, any other type of Union is not marriage.
4. Children should not be placed into foster homes where the parents are homosexual, bisexual, or transgender.
5. Parental consent should be required for sex education that teaches more than direct abstinence.
6. The second Amendment to the Constitution [the right to keep and bear arms] should not be weakened in any way.
7. Only US citizens should be allowed to vote and a photo ID should always be required to vote. (The Mexican government requires a photo ID and fingerprint).
8. I oppose Ohio’s State Income Tax.
9. I oppose the Obama Health Care Reform and would like to see more affordable healthcare through a competitive, open, and transparent system.
10. I oppose the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy of the military and believe that all same sex partners should be banned from combat duty in the military because of the propensity to transmit blood-borne diseases in the theatre of battle.
11. I support a law that will allow the people to place on a ballot all collective bargaining agreements of all government associations, unions, and guilds, for their expressed approval. Defeat of such an agreement would mean government workers would not be immune from the free market system.
12. I oppose card check for voting to implement a Union as this could give unions an unfair intimidation tactic to implement unionisation.
13. I am not an economic pacifist. I believe that we need to protect our economic borders in order to ensure free and fair trade. Tariffs should be used to stop the wealth and jobs of Americans from leaving her borders.
14. The Federal Reserve as it is currently conceived needs to be abolished or at the very least audited.
15. I advocated moving our currency to a debt-free supply-side labour-based currency

We have heard last week that the Republican’s were waiting on the input of their members on their web site. This is a sample of the type of information they are going to be using to move this country further to the right.

Notice there are No questions about jobs, financial reform, taxes, etc. Reason, the Republican’s have no new ideas on those points other than to bring back the failed voodoo and trickle down economics of the Regan and GW Bush era.

The wealthiest members of Congress grew richer in 2009 even as the economy struggled to recover from a deep recession.

The 50 wealthiest lawmakers were worth almost $1.4 billion in 2009, about $85.1 million more than 12 months earlier, according to The Hill’s annual review of lawmakers’ financial disclosure forms.

Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) tops the list for the second year in a row. His minimum net worth was $188.6 million at the end of 2009, up by more than $20 million from 2008, according to his financial disclosure form.

snip

There were a few other new faces in the Top 50, including Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-R.I.), who received an inheritance after his late father, Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.), died in 2009.

Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Rep. Tom Petri (R-Wis.) also made the list.

Twenty-seven Democrats along with 23 Republicans make up the 50 richest in Congress; 30 House members and 20 senators are on the list."

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/116489-wealthy-lawmakers-increased-their-riches-as-economy-sputtered-in-2009-

Thanks for sharing Retired!

That's some scary stuff!

Let it be a wakeup call for progressives to get out and work as HARD as we did during the 2008 election!

As I've said previously...

They want their country BACK!

I want MY country FORWARD!

PS: Dangerfield - your point again is what? Last time I checked members of Congress aren't responsible for the hiring of the MILLIONS of workers who where laid off thanks to 'W' running this economy into a ditch!

Thanks for tryin though... lol

Festy,

Thank you. This is scary stuff they are playing with.

Keep the faith and move forward, going backwards to the old failed agendas of Regan and Bush are not the answer.

Again, companies are not going to hire more employees until not doing so actually costs them profits. It is not hard to understand, but the democratic talking point-evil businesses are not hiring because they want Obama to fail-seems to be stuck in the minds of a lot of the posters here.

It isn't resonating with the voters, guys. Try a new tactic.

ANon: you asked me to supply you with some information. Read "Mark to Market Melee" by Daniel Gross in Slate from April 1, 2008-before the crisis. There is also "FASB Eases Mark to Market Rules", in WSJ, April 3, 2009. There are a lot of other articles-I have no doubt you will have more understanding than I. Economists are NOT CPA's-and vice versa.

dangerfield, do we know how rich the Bush family is? The Cheney family? Can you please let us know?

Last time I checked members of Congress aren't responsible for the hiring of the MILLIONS of workers who where laid off

thanks to 'W' running this economy into a ditch!

Cognitive dissonance...Congress bears no responsibility for the state of the economy, but it's the sitting president's fault?.. Thanks for the political and economic "wisdom"...lol!!!

Fiesty,

You and I are on the same page. So let's repeat it for the numbskulls...

CEOs of the 50 firms that have laid off the most workers since the onset of the economic crisis took home 42 percent more pay in 2009 than their peers at S&P 500 firms, according to "CEO Pay and the Great Recession," the 17th in a series of annual Executive Excess reports from the Institute for Policy Studies. .

Also, the Tea Baggers Have a Conflict-Ridden Legacy.

How can Tea Baggers reconcile being so duped and unyielding? Their obstinacy to willfully back people like Joe Miller in Alaska and Rick Scott in Florida illustrates just how uneducated and misinformed they are. Tea Baggers may be enthusiast but they are/have to be just plain dim-witted as well as hoodwinked. In order to deal with the devastation of Tea Bagger candidates and the GOP Tea Baggers should assess particularly,

joblessness

foreclosures

high insurance primuiems, or no healthcare whatsoever

Tea Baggers should fight back against the current floods of Tea Bagger candidates and GOP trickery. This deception is highlighted in Tea Bagger and GOP debates i.e. …

NO wall street regulations

No Healthcare

NO Employee free choice act

Yes, Investigations ad infintium instead of legislation

NO education (Our children will not be dumb because of it and be able to compete globally folowing the President)

Tea Baggers need to concentrate their energy and maximize the INEFFECTIVENESS of the right right wing agenda

Ignore, the right wing agenda, Tea Baggers, no doubt about it America will get worse if they and the right wing gain control. You must see being Tea Baggers is nothing more than being a ploy for the GOP’S agenda. The GOP has nothing in the cards for you. The Tea Baggers agenda is trying to have it both ways. Wait until they get in, they will carry out the GOP’S agenda with out admitting any mea culpa for you. The GOP and tea baggers plan is to continously get rich off the backs of the midle class and the poor and yours

Watch them unwaveringly and you’ll begin to figure out, in actual facts, what devastation of the economy the Tea baggers and GOP will follow.

Jody in Iowa had it right yesterday. For those of you righties who got your thinking from FOX NOISE that the President's speech lacked Emotion Please, go back and look at some of President Bush's speeches from the Oval office. I rather have a president who can speak the English language instead of giggling.

Don't listen to John Boehnor; if it's emotion you want. There is nothing to celebrate in a never ending war apart from our members of the armed forces.

The greatest emotion for me will be when the President is position to shackle Bush/Cheney for war crimes. I will rejoice when Bush/Cheney our creating Hell in a Cell in the Hague.

What is frustrating to many, No Joe, is that in many companies the existing work force is putting in extra hours, not getting raises and often doing the work of laid off colleagues. This works in the short term but in the long term can cause burn out. To then learn that the top executives are receiving large bonuses rather than having that money go to hiring lower paid employees who are available and would be glad to have a job and take some of the burden off of the others is discouraging.

Navy -

Thanks for printing that "litmus test". Our local Tea Party group posted the results on their website of a very similar list of questions sent to local candidates during primary season here in Pennsylvania. As I recall, well over half those questioned (Democrats, Republicans and third party candidates) had still not replied a few days before the election, and of those who did, most only answered half or less of the questions. I guess most politicians are congenitally unable to answer a simple yes or no question, especially when they're well aware that anything they say can and will be used against them in the court of public opinion.

Beverly;

WOW girl, go get em.

What people do not understand is that the Tea Party/Republicans are selling them a poke in a hope. They fail to realize that when all is said and done, Wall Street, Big Business, Oil and the Richest 2% are going to get the lions share of the wealth, benefits and power. They other 98% are going to be fighting for the table scraps. AND, guess what, there will be an awful lot of Republicans and tea party people fighting for those same scarps, courtesy of the Right Wing Republicans.

That is probably the saddest part of all. These people are fighting the wrong battle. They are only helping they right take their own money and power from them and redistribute it to the top 2%.

If the right wing Republicans get what they want 98% of the population is screwed. That includes democrats and republicans alike.

10 seconds off this site would enable you to answer your own academic question. So, did you really want to know? Does it matter that there are more rich democrats on the list? They are ALL rich...

Here's what I found in the public record on the Bush's; They're no Kennedys, or even Heinz-Kerry's for that matter. There are scores of political families (Bloomberg is worth over twenty BILLION) far richer than the Bush family...What was your point, criticism, insinuation?

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-politicians/presidents/george-w-bush-net-worth/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_and_government_by_net_worth

"As for money: well, being in office cut down on his income for a while, sure. That's the problem with politics (though Cheney showed how to solve it). Bush left the Florida's governor office with a net worth of a mere $1.3 million, and immediately renewed his real estate broker's license, went on some fancy boards and became a consultant to Lehman Brothers."

http://www.theawl.com/2010/06/the-jeb-bush-presidential-trial-balloons-launch

Cool...so based on her own criteria, feisty redhead is a TROLL!...lol

I'm getting the popcorn popper ready...thanks for the entertainment!...lol

Steeler FAn-businesses are not charities. They do not hire more employees than they need to maximize their profits.

The government is also not a charity, but, if it were run like a business, there would be far fewer government employees.

That would cut costs, thus lowering the deficit. That could lower tax rates, increase demand, causing businesses to hire. Those people would be paying federal income taxes, thus increasing revenues, thus reducing the deficit.

Win win win.

Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) tops the list for the second year in a row. His minimum net worth was $188.6 million at the end of 2009, up by more than $20 million from 2008, according to his financial disclosure form.

Senator Kerry votes for the American people 99% of the time. And for that I am grateful. His votes on healthcare and help for our military has been right, where the GOP have been wrong. So really, that's what is really important. How they vote.

I have to admit I am pretty ticked off at Senator Kerry right now. I know his wife has been ill, and I didn't want to dump on him, but I don't think he has said anything publicly about this "mosque" in NYC. It seems to me he would be in favor of having it built right where it is, but he has said nothing that I can find. He's been in the Senate for a long long time and I expect him to speak up during times of controversies. I'm v. disappointed. If he has spoken out about it, could someone please pass on the link? Perhaps I just missed it. I've been waiting to hear or read his views on this topic for a while now.

STS...

Feisty, thanks for sharing the link on executive pay, it just confirms the continuing agenda by the Right to build up the top by tearing out the foundation.

We keep hearing the Republican talking point about "uncertainty" preventing hiring, preventing capital investment, preventing banks from loaning money. I've begun the annual budgeting process for my little corner of a great big company and one word I've yet to hear within those walls is "uncertainty". For me it's ALL about growing the bottom line. Well, technically not the bottom line as most people understand it, but the EBITDA line which is related. ANYTHING I can do to present a steady upward trend line is fair game. I don't get to say "this will cost now, but it'll pay off in 6 months." I have to figure out how to fit that in such that it doesn't alter the upward slope of that trend line.

That mindset makes it really tough to do the big things that are game changers. I have to figure out how to change the game in smaller ways. It's true throughout American business. We don't get to throw the long ball, we're working to make this month's budget.

They do not hire more employees than they need to maximize their profits.

Am I understanding this right NoJo... it's totally fine with you that companies maximize their profits to the tune of 42% so they can pay 3'xs the average CEO compensation (in Johnson & Johnsons case) while laying off 9,000 workers?

Alrighty then... lol

no joe, no bo, nj

Again, companies are not going to hire more employees until not doing so actually costs them profits. It is not hard to understand, but the democratic talking point-evil businesses are not hiring because they want Obama to fail-seems to be stuck in the minds of a lot of the posters here.

No Jo i completely understand. companies are going through the same decisions we all are faced with, do i hire with out knowing what the future holds, as for every day people its, do i spend money or do i hold it. No Jo i got layed off in january, i got a new job in april a thousand miles away in denver, making alot less, but what i have not done is move here perminate, not intill i see signs that construction is on its way back, by not moving here i still have my most of my money from my 401k and girl i''m not going to spend that untill things get better.

business being against a president is not in there best interest, so some who say that no one is hiring because of the president is as silly as the tea party and glen beck wanting HIS country back.

Fiesty, that's known as logic of the right. Bless their little hearts.

okay feisty, everything you say is 100% truthful, but not really related to this article. it does all tie together, but only in a much broader picture.

Jeff, you are always one of my favorite posters, because you discuss things rationally. I wish there were more like you on this board.

Good luck with the job. I certainly hope things pick up, because there are many Americans hurting in this economy.

I just read on the Washington Post site that the census bureau is reporting that government spending increased by 16% in 2009-the largest increase since the bureau began reporting in 1985. The bulk of the spending? The stimulous bill.

I, and a lot of other economists, believe that the economy cannot recover until spending is cut deeply. That must be priority one for the new congress. Everything else is meaningless.

You said a very important thing in your last statement Njnbnj. "I and a lot of other economists, BELIEVE that the economy cannot recover until spending is cut deeply." Your opinion is noted but is not the only one out there. There are equally brilliant economist that BELIEVE the exact opposite. Please stop trying to make is sound like those who don't share your opinion are some how less suited to try there solutions.

We all know the reason the economy is horrible is because the entire system has been slanted by those with power, money and influence. The financial system we have is not fair and the market is definitely not free. You and other very well educated folks speak in terms that are in studies and black boards. What no one is taking into account is when you have these economic systems and introduce them to the human mind (insane amounts of greed, vanity and lust for power) the economic system then becomes a weapon to be wielded against the populace. Which is what we are seeing now. Companies now know they can make great profits without treating there employees fairly because they can always find more unemployed folk to work for less. Welcome to the unregulated future.

Before you go into telling me how my uneducated opinion is worthless please take the time to point out what lines in my post you may disagree with.

Thank you for your time.

Tom-I learned long ago that discourse with those who start sentences with the statement "We all know. . ." is futile. Therefore, I'm ignoring a lot of your post.

There is one sentence, however, that does bear discussion; your statement that "companies now know that they can make great profits without treating there(sic) employees fairly because they can always hire more unemployed folk to work for less."

Part of that statement is completely false; the other, only partially true.

First, the false: in this country, those at the lowest end of the payscale are the beneficiaries of minimum wage laws, which may vary state to state on the high end, but are federally mandated at the floor. The partially true: while there might be some downward pressure on wages during recessionary periods, it is always short-lived-until the next upswing.

At the middle wage level, one might argue that a company seeking to hire a low-level manager might have paid a wage of $40,000 during a period of full employment, but is now offering a wage of $36,000 due to the number of applicants. However, what will happen to that wage during the next upswing? If the company cannot match the market driven wage for that job, they will lose the employee they have, and incur the expense of hiring and training a new employee for the higher wage. Most companies know that it is in their best interest to skip the training period, and meet the market wage.

This is true all the way up the wage scale-including those jobs that require a set of skills owned by an extreme few, such as CEO's, sports figures, and actors. For jobs 500,000 can fill, the wage will be lower than for a job only 5 can fill. During recessions, the full number of applicants may apply, driving the wage to its lowest rate. During full employment, few or none may apply, and extra wages may be used to coerce movement.

Odd that I never see liberals complaining when wages skyrocket during periods of full employment, to say nothing of periods of labor shortages, such as we had in the late '90's and early "aughts". When unemployment falls below 5%, there is pressure on wages UPWARD, as companies seek to fill jobs with too few applicants. Liberals either do not notice or do not care to comment at those times.

Now, I will veer off this topic, and onto a very serious one: the case being made for victimhood by the democrats. It isn't working. Most Americans eschew the very idea of being victimized. That is why the vilification of business is failing so spectacularly this election cycle.

Does the average person understand all of the ins, outs, and nuances of Obama's economic policy, and why it is not working? I would say, probably not; however, it is enough that almost a trillion was spent with no good outcome.

Voters DO understand that kind of waste, and the stubborn insistence that it DID work, just not so that they could understand how it worked, only sharpens their understanding.

If they don't want to be seen as victims, they sure as heck despise being treated like fools.

Hilarious NJ, you were a "teacher" until yesterday. Today you're "I, and a lot of other economists."

You have an opinion like everyone else here, but we're under no obligation to consider you an authority when you spout truisms and Conservative talking points.

Is your expertise sufficient to back up those talking points with any data, or even by restating in a way that makes your contention more understandable?

Incidentally I'm no one's victim, but Conservatives work really hard to portray THEMSELVES as the victims. Persecuted Christians, victims of the Liberal media, locked out of participation in the government, blah, blah, blah.

Gingerbread at 8:50, you had a very nice post. We must always honor our veterans. We also must thank their families for their sacrifices.

I do disagree with one of your points. You stated that unless a leader had been in war or had sent a child to war then they shouldn't be allowed to send people to war. Look back; many of the great leaders of this country sent people to war without the experience you stated; one of the most notable of those was Lincoln. By your standard, he should not have made the decision to authorize the Civil War.

In the words of FDR, "I do not like war; Eleanor does not like war; Falla does not like war." Due a senseless war, my generation and myself personally lost so much. To this day, I still ask myself "for what?" And, the way our country treated the returning veterans of that period is, to me, one of the blackest marks on our history. We can NEVER let that happen again.

For whatever reasons, though, somebody determines the necessity of a war, whether I like it or not. However, I won't judge their decision based on their personal experience with war but more on worthiness of the cause.

Regarding the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I find myself asking again "for what?" (And, please, spare me anymore of the "blame game" of "why" we're there. The fact is, we are. ) It seems to me we learned nothing in Vietnam. I never served, I wasn't there. But, it seems to me you can fight an army, lined up against you, bombing you from the air. But, you can't fight the village, the locals and their ways. It always astonished me that we think we can go in and impose change upon a regional culture that has been fighting amongst either other practically since the beginning of time.

My prediction is we will leave Afghanistan, just like we're leaving Iraq and left Vietnam, not as winners. Yes, life will be changed in those areas. But, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will regroup, relocate after we've spent priceless blood and treasure "for what?"

Hey Feisty,

I too was and am damn PROUD of OUR President.

I read that article about the CEO's as well. I almost had to go the bathroom. They are not hiring because they are greedy and want to keep their millions of dollars, but according to the right, they are not hiring because of President Obama. Of course. I'm surprised he is not being blamed for Hurricane Earl.

Alright folks, let's get out and vote in November. President Obama needs all our support more so than ever. If you are not motivated, just think - Speaker Boehner. That ought to get you moving right quick and in a hurry.

Of course. I'm surprised he is not being blamed for Hurricane Earl.

Shhh Joi... Let's not give them any ideas... ;0)))

Forgive me for the one sentence in my post that started with "we all know". I wrote a lot more that you didn't seem to address. At no point have I said anything about (D) or (R) in my post because I don't think it has to do with any of that. All of the middle class has been affected.

Now getting back to the point.

NJ can we agree the rules are slanted toward the powerful, wealthy and connected?

When I say they can get unemployed workers to come and do the work for less I am not just talking about the amount paid. I am talking about the amount of compensation the worker recieves for doing the work requested. If a company has layoffs but productivity doesn't drop off and a profits go up who do you think is doing the extra work? It is the worker that didn't get laid off doing the job of two people for half the cost.

There have been plenty of lay-offs and not alot of hiring going on so when we as Americans hear companies are turning a profit the question needs to be asked why are we doing more work with out compensation.

On your other point it is my understanding that the states were given most of the stimulus dollars to spend on the things they needed. If that is the case is it fair to say the President wasted the money?

Please leave the politcal parties out of it and lets just have a discussion about what you and I believe. Go off of what I have posted and I will do the same.

Hey Joi G

Since you put it that way... that just makes me want to puke!!!!

I find it very upsetting that this thread was collapsed. There is NOTHING about Feisty's post that violates community standards and it should be reinstated at once.

Thank you John!

I've already e-mailed the 'gate-keeper' Tyler asking for an explanation as to WHY?

Other than malicious users...

I would point out that if you are going to correct other's spelling, you ought to learn to spell "stimulus."

dangerfield,...You DO realize that the stockmarket has recovered about 25% or better (depending on the specific stocks you hold). That and the absence of an inheritance tax can explain a significant amount of carry wealth.

But do go on, you were bitter?

Well gee whiz Joe, with all the bad news on jobs, the economy and Obamas approval rating, I thought you'd be walking on air this morning.

There Joe goes again cheering for bad news on the economy. Are you so dumb you don't see that eventually the bad economy will effect you. You guys are something else cheering against American and hoping we yes Joe all of us fail.

The fact that you call the President, Barry, shows not only your disrespect of the man, but a rather telling sign that no one taught you HOW to show respect.

Listen to President Obama's speech. He did not disrespect George Bush at all. That is class.

And when your tea party policies finally nail shut this country's coffin, making us the laughing stock of the industrialized world, it will be you who will be in deep trouble.

Again - learn when and how to be respectful, or, and I say this with the disrespect you deserve - you are a moron; or moran as many of the tea party signs say.

Joe in Albany: "Geez, does anyone else think the economy SHOULD have been Barry’s “No. 1 priority” from about 12:05 PM on January 20, 2009??"

Joe, I was there, and as I recall, things were running a bit behind schedule and I'm not sure President Obama even was officially the President at that moment in time. (Perhaps this "Barry" guy you speak of was? I don't remember anyone by that name being around that day, either, though).

All kidding aside - you speak of "the economy" as if it's a separate, stand-alone issue from the wars, healthcare reform, etc. - they're very complexly intertwined, and Barack Obama was already working on all of them in preparation for becoming President long before 12:05pm on January 20, 2009.

But then, you and the Congressional Republicans had already made up your minds that he was a failure long before then, hadn't you?

Yeah, respect! that's the president's middle name...oh wait, no his middle name is..I can't say it 'cause it ain't PC...anyway...

"President Obama swiftly responded to Hurricane Katrina. Citing the Bush Administration’s “unconscionable ineptitude” Class and respect!

Barack Obama criticizes Bush as he outlines foreign policy goals
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/world/americas/23iht-obama.5.5408168.html

Obama criticizes Bush while wooing GOP
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/03/14/Obama-criticizes-Bush-while-wooing-GOP/UPI-97991237057581/

Obama criticizes Bush on the economy
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2008/03/17/4431541-obama-criticizes-bush-on-the-economy

Obama Criticizes Bush Stimulus Plan
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18328180

Obama criticizes Bush's slow handling of housing foreclosures

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/12/07/57279/obama-criticizes-bushs-slow-handling.html#ixzz0yHyT8mnb

Obama criticizes Bush for doubling U.S. debt
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/07/20090107obama0107.html

Not to be critical...:)

So the new tactic will be to "collapse" comments based not on inflammatory rhetoric, but what displeases the majority...ah the tolerance of the "progressive community" on this board, exemplified by comments like

"It's astounding what's going on here in America with the stuck on stupid crowd or as they're more commonly known as the 'tea bagger's'!"

Which was neither collapsed nor even criticized...

As I've said before, I take the FR lefty liberals collapsing one of my comments as a badge of honor.

Must be a lot of anger out there among the Amateur Left today, also.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charlie Cook (The Cook Political Report), writing for National Journal this morning:

"Labor Day is almost here and Democrats are still waiting for the cavalry to arrive. An exhaustive scan of the horizon reveals no rescuers and none of the things Democrats badly need to save them from tough midterm election losses on Nov. 2."

And;

"Congress does not come back to town for two more weeks, but it is a pretty safe assumption that the mood among Democrats will be surly and the fingers will begin pointing. A party has not lost a House majority in such a short period of time in over a half-century. This is not going to go down well."

No wonder the natives are unusually restless these days...

I figured I'd just post this on a collapsed thread, and get it over with.

ROFLMAO!

"I figured I'd just post this on a collapsed thread, and get it over with."

Mixed, I find it Hillaryuosly FUNNY that the FR lefty liberals are resorting to lame attempts at censorship when they don't agree with another's opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!

These are strange times indeed, Joe...

When Eric, Salinas, CA, says "After voting for Obama twice in 2008 I think it's time to turn the page on Obama's presidency!"...you know that something is up.

Funny...after all the offensive, reprehensible things (remarks that are obscene, anti-Semitic, homophobic, etc.) that Eric has posted on this site, that might be the one that the denizens of First Read simply cannot accept.

Says a lot about the community, doesn't it?

What is Tyler's email?

Louis, the only thing Obama has accomplished is to squander the good will he was given by a majority of Americans. He did this by revealing that the centrist, pragmatic candidate folks voted for was actually a far-left liberal in disguise.

He did it by forcing an agenda that the majority of Americans did not want.

He did it by increasing spending by a record high 16% in one year-the bulk of which was a stimulous program that stimulated nothing but the deficit.

Make all the excuses you want, but the failures of this administration can be laid directly at Obama's feet.

Are you adding TARP in with stimulous or are those two the same thing? What day were both of those signed into law? I am genuinley asking these questions not trying to be funny or clever. Weren't most the stimulous funds given to the states? Shouldn't we look at what states used those funds for effective job creating?

No joe all blow you call yourself an economist, all I can say is think goodness all you are is an uninformed poster on FR.

no joe, no bo, nj

Now the stimulus did keep companies like the one that layed me off and the one i'm with now afloat. the company i'm with now was awarded 4 million in work through projects funded by the stimulus. so No Jo you can't say it was a complete failure. was it enough to sustain construction for the long haul, No. those shovel ready jobs were only a stop gap. but they did keep companies from laying off. No Jo with out the stimulus i would have been layed off 9 months early because there was nothing out there to bid on. when the stimulus was passed i was bidding projects left and right. we got work that enabled us to keep our best plumbers and engineers.

so as much as you disagree with it. it did do some good. Now i'm not making excuses, but your a experince with ecomonics, when we bailed out the banks was is not right for us to put strings on that, after all they made bad decisions and came to the govermnent with there hands out. Obama biggest mistake was to not make then reinvest in american or make then pay the same rates as regular people do.

It's hard to take anyone seriously when they rely on FOX and YAHOO as a news source.

Very good points.

Here is the bottom line. There is no doubt at all what the Republican Right has morphed into. They have become the obstruction party. They support Wall Street over Main Street, Big Business over Small Business and the Richest 2% over the 98% middle class.

They cry they want to create Jobs, but they block every job creation bill. They want to lower the deficit but have an agenda that will increase the deficit by over Three Trillion Dollars. They talk about freedom of religion and speech but want to change the First Amendment. They want to repeal the Health Care Bill but 19 of the 22 states suing the Fed’s are taking the money. They denounce the economic stimulus bill but are at all the cutting ceremonies claiming they go did it. And the list goes on and on.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Beverly;

WOW girl, go get em.

____________________________--

Thanks Navy,

I intend to keep it going. Also, have you noticed how the Wall Street crowd who the President bailed out has turned on him.

I will attack them every day to point out their greed and lack of concern for Main Street; the people who put them there until they relent.

Beverly;

That is the republican way.

Think Progress:

Deploring the suspected arson at the site of the future Murfreesboro, TN mosque, Gov. Phil Bredesen (D) said, “I would ask everybody to remember this is a country whose deepest origins are in religious freedom.” The governor asked his state’s residents “to please have great respect for anyone’s religious preferences and their rights to practice those in the United States.”

Pat: My goodness! you took a Bosox bat and whacked Romney right between the eyes. A well deserved whack I might add. I remember those quotes also, Romney may be the master flip-flopper. It will be facinating to see how he deals with the neo conservatives. They too may want to borrow your bat.

This guy Romney is the biggest hypocrite/phony out there. I am putting together a file on him. This is just the beginning.

Pat, thanks for pointing out that for Conservatives the message of the moment is more important than consistency of principle and thought. They're very philosophy is very moldable except for one constant--every position is in some way designed to further the aims of those at the very top. The "Islam is the religion of terror, if that is it's a religion at all" story is great for them because it hits three sweet spots at the same time. It keeps Muslims out of the power structure. It keeps the rest of us diverted by the shiny object and off the subject of bettering our society. It feeds the war machine and therefore the profiteers who exist everyplace from GE to XE.

that for Conservatives the message of the moment is more important than consistency of principle and thought.

Bingo. Thanks John.

Pat, not sure if you've heard my theory that they are making Glenn Beck into a Mainstream Mormon to grease the skids for Romeny's Presidential Run,...just a theory.

But Bill there is no SS problem. Isn't that 4.1 Trillion trust fund sitting in a Lockbox?

O.K. Bill. lets start with SS.J

Just who is backing the guarantee that no one will lose a dollar invested in their personal investment accounts? (Clue: its you and me)

What does modernization of the retirement age really mean?

"Isn't that 4.1 Trillion trust fund sitting in a Lockbox?"

As I understand it, the SS Lockbox is buried in Al Bore's TN mansion's basement. I just hope Tipper doesn't get it in the divorce.

LOL!!!

Lower income wage earners already have the opportunity to participate in their employer's 401K; most middle and large employers have them. Social security is not and should never be a 401K to be gambled in the stock market. 401K's are intended to encourage employees to save and invest personally for their retirement. Social security is the safety net.

"The Senate Special Committee on Aging (controlled by Democrats) has ginned up some ideas on how to fix the Social Security financing problems" "raise the wage base subject to Social Security taxes to 90% of a wage earner's income"

That must be where Jody, Iowa got yesterday's nutty idea she was trying to attribute to Reagan:

"If the cap is raised back to what Reagan set, pay on 90% of income,"

First thoughts post 11.11

Bill you do know that when Ryan's numbers were crunched by the CBO they didn't add up? Ryan is like Enron, he's good at inserting numbers that make his assertion look good on paper put not in reality, just like Enron did before it collapsed. And who do you think will pay when the Ryan plan collapsed? Oh the tax payer, but that's not called a tax right Bill? Doggone it Bill you always seam to forget about that darn CBO in your rants. But the only time you accept the CBO report is when it agrees with you.

Bill;

Get off the soap box before you fall and hurt yourself. You we wrong yesterday and you are still wrong today. Bye

STS

Jody, Iowa
Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:15 AM

Social security is not and should never be a 401K to be gambled in the stock market. 401K's are intended to encourage employees to save and invest personally for their retirement. Social security is the safety net.

I'm sorry Jody, you continue to be part of the problem even when being presented with evidence of a reasonable potential solution.

As I stated, Ryan's plan guarantees that particiapnts in the voluntary personal savings accounts will receive every cent they put in plus inflation. So, explain to me and the rest of the world how that constitutes gambling in the stock market. Expalin to me and the rest of the world why your remark on that point should be interpreted as anything other than inflammatory disinformation intended to scare folks?

In the next sentence you say 401K's are intended to encourage folks to save and invest. OK which is it, is a 401K a means to "gamble" in the stock market or is it a means to "save and invest"? You can't argue from both sides of your mouth Jody, pick one and stick to it.

As I stated, Ryan's plan provides that Social Security benefits for low wage earners are raised to guarantee a payout of at least 120% of the federal poverty level. If that's not a social safetey net, I'm not sure what is. In fact, it's a better net for folks at the low end of the scale than exists under the current system.

I'll say it again: you and people like you are part of the problem on this issue. You talk ideology and not facts, and distort the facts in the process.

Bill, Fairfax VA

most of you probably know that Congressman Paul Ryan has a plan to reform Social Security. But how many of you know the details of his plan?

I know Americans are not ready to put their SS in the stock market casino. Rather than calling Ryan's plan responsible reformation, let's just call it what it is--GOPpocalyptic. At the House Republican's retreat, President Obama already ate your boy Ryan up about his privatizing assault on Social Security according to the CBO.

Ryan would reduce future Social Security benefits and create voluntary private accounts, much like the old Bush plan; turn Medicare into a voucher program starting in 2021; and cap spending for Medicaid, now an open-ended entitlement.

Social Security's Trust Fund, it's projected SOLVENCY is for thirty-seven years or more. Can you say that about speculating your income away on the stock market?

Disabled Vet
Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:44 AM EDT

"You we wrong yesterday and you are still wrong today. Bye."

Interesting point of view, just a lazy assertion without proof. I'll take you seriously when you demonstrate an ability to marshall a fact-based counter argument. Until then, bye.

Thanks for the information. I agree that the American public will not hear from the ABC media outlets about anything that isn't stated by the left. It sounds as if the negative comments from the leftists have just begun.

Good post Beverly. Isn't it amazing how Bill left out all the important facts that contradict his assertions.

Mo
Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:32 AM EDT

"Bill you do know that when Ryan's numbers were crunched by the CBO they didn't add up?"

Um, are you and the other ill-informed lemmings who voted for your post referring to the CBO report linked below? If so, you people obviously haven't read that report, so as a public service I'll help you out.

"On balance, those changes [as specified in the Ryan Roadmap]would reduce federal budget deficits and the federal debt. Under the proposal, federal outlays excluding interest (so-called primary spending) would decline, from 26 percent of GDP in 2009 to 19 percent in 2020, 16 percent in 2060, and 14 percent in 2080. Revenues under the Roadmap would initially correspond to revenues under the alternative fiscal scenario and then remain at 19 percent of GDP after 2030, on the basis of specifications provided by your staff. The budget deficit would peak at 5 percent of GDP in 2034 and then decline. By 2080, the proposal would generate a budget surplus of about 5 percent of GDP." [p. 5, 7]

"Under the Roadmap, the ratio of government debt held by the public to economic output (the ratio of debt to GDP) would be lower than that under the alternative fiscal scenario [i.e. current policy] in every year. In particular, debt is projected to peak at 100 percent of GDP in 2043 and to decline thereafter, reaching zero by 2080. (Debt held by the public was about 53 percent of GDP at the end of fiscal year 2009.) The federal government would accumulate net financial assets equal to 17 percent of GDP by 2083. In contrast, under the alternative fiscal scenario, debt is projected to skyrocket over the next several decades." [p. 7]

"The flow of payroll tax contributions into the Social Security trust funds would be sufficient to pay benefits as specified in the [Roadmap] proposal. The ratio of assets in the trust funds in any year relative to the expected benefit payments for the following year, termed the trust fund ratio, would decline from a peak of just over 4 in 2023 to a low of under 2 in 2065. After 2065, the trust fund ratio would begin to increase again. By 2083, revenues would exceed outlays by substantial and rising amounts, leading to a growing surplus for the trust funds. By contrast, under the alternative fiscal scenario with benefits as scheduled, Social Security outlays would be close to 6 percent of GDP in the years beyond 2033. The trust fund ratio under that scenario [i.e. current policy] would be just over 1 in 2036, and the trust funds would be exhausted in 2042." [p. 9]

"In general, total annual benefits provided by Social Security are projected to be
slightly higher under the proposal than under current law for each of the first 20 yearsand also in the long run. In the first 20 years, the increase in total benefits would occur primarily because of the increased amount of the special minimum benefit." [p. 9]

"The lower budget deficits under your proposal would result in much less federal debt than under the alternative fiscal scenario and thereby a much more favorable macroeconomic outlook….The Roadmap would put the federal budget on a sustainable path, generating an annual budget surplus of about 5 percent of GDP by 2080. According to CBO's textbook growth model…real potential gross national product per person would continue to grow over the entire 75-year period. The economy would be considerably stronger under the proposal (as analyzed by CBO) than it would be under the alternative fiscal scenario [i.e. current policy]. Real gross national product per person would be about 70 percent higher in 2058 under the proposal than under the alternative fiscal scenario." [p. 14, 16]

Now, explain to me again how the CBO concluded Ryan's numbers didn't add up.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10851/01-27-Ryan-Roadmap-Letter.pdf

Bill, we do know Paul Ryan's plan--privatize, personalize, and eliminate the safety net. Maybe republicans should take a look at what happened in 2008, Americans lost huge amounts of their privatized retirement savings. It would be just plain dumb to privatize social security--yes, just plain dumb. Bill says I am the problem because I don't understand. No, I DO UNDERSTAND, all too well and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with my politics and EVERYTHING to do with common sense and understanding the intent of social security, its purpose. A person only needs to read a book or watch Great Depression documentaries to fully understand why social security, unemployment insurance were implemented. The Government has a responsibility to protect its people because private industry protects itself.

Sorry Bill I don't have the time to sit here and cut and paste the parts of the CBO report you left out, but please keep cherry picking what makes your point. Only the teabagging republicans are paying any attention to you.

Well Bill, here are the thoughts of someone who may must know more about Economics than No Joe;

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=4&src=twt&twt=NytimesKrugman

The numbers add up if you accept that you're going to leave people with a greatly diminished support system in the form of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. The CBO report also states;

"The analysis in this letter does not represent a cost estimate for your proposal." and "

Even this rough comparison can be constructed for your proposal only because its provisions and additional specifications provided by your staff set predetermined growth rates for the key amounts of taxes and transfers;" In other words they analyzed it under specific parameters as dictated by Ryan, designed to put his plan in the best light. Even at that it makes note "...those payouts would also be more uncertain, despite the guarantee, because returns on stocks and corporate bonds are risky." In other words like all Republican plans to privatize Social Security it aims to wash our hands of retirees and make any loss of income strictly their problem. It notes that even under Ryan's preferred scenario retirees would have less income from his plan than they would from Social Security to go along with greater risk. Quite a combination.

Wow, all that AND it raises taxes on 95% of the population while cutting tax rates in half for the top 1%. The aristocracy will be pleased.

Paul Krugman, the economic adviser to Enron?

THAT Paul Krugman?

Sorry. I don't take anything he says seriously. I'm actually surprised that anybody does.

How 'bout the two of you go Nobel Prize for Nobel Prize?

The American people should also be smart enough to know that the unjustifiable invasion of the sovereign nation of Iraq, the deaths of American kids, and the bloating of the Federal deficit because of this un-financed farce are also products of Bush and McCains arrogance and stupidity. Give it a rest Rob.

All the intelligence pointed to Iraq having nukes. You can lie amoungs yourselves but that's the truth. Not only did we liberate Iraq from a ruthless dictator but we insured a mad man could not export the horror of nuclear terrorism. Our intelligence was wrong. That isn't Bush's fault. He saw a threat to the world and did something about it. Saddam could have averted the whole thing by simply allowing UN inspectors do their jobs.

WE KNOW Iran will have nuclear weapons soon! While obambie is trying to unclench their fists, they continue to build bombs..aimed at Israel and the US. While obambie is wrecking our economy and maxing out the nation's credit card, Iran is building the capability to disrupt / destroy the world economy. Do you really want Amajinidad's finger on the button? I very much hope I'm wrong but I fear obambie's inaction will have very dire consequences in the near future.

Bush is a far better man and leader than your anointed one. I choose a man of action; not a man of words.

Hobie81, how much did they pay you to write that nonsense?

Hobbie Horse;

Right, Bush and Chenny were great for this country. Do you not see the mess they have left this country in. The war in Iraq was based on lies on top of lies. They, under their gross mismanagement, has created the financial meltdown that President Obama is trying to dig us out of.

STS

Hobie81:

All the intelligence pointed to Iraq having nukes.

The exact opposite is true. An Iraqi nuclear scientist who defected from Iraq told US intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no functioning nuclear weapons program. Bush and Cheney did succeed in deceiving most Democrats in Congress in voting for the use-of-force authorization using bogus "intellligence" from sources like the known liar and mental case code-named "Curve Ball". So as far as succesful lies and deceit are concerned, the Bush/Cheney mission was indeed accomplished.

Yes, We know that those two along with Liebermann, the rest of the Hawks in Congress and the Military Industrial Complex thousands of lives were lost or irreparably damaged. Thanks! Thank yoooou so much.

Rob-459463
The American people are smart enough to know why we are now able to pull combat troops from Iraq. Bush and McCain

Yes, they know that they have to stop wasting their money and people's lives on unnecessary wars. The sooner the better.

Steve, Del;

Thank you for your kind words. I will look at that web site later. Have a good day.

And your point is Rob? If it's democracy in the middle east your wrong as usual, there is no democracy in the middle east you've been lied to again by guess who Fox. Come on Rob wake up and join the real world and quit living in Fox fantasy world.

On the contrary, Rob, bin Laden was thrilled to have an American conquest of a sovereign nation to use as a recruiting tool, and even affiliated himself with an independent, previously local group now known as al Qaeda in Iraq to take advantage of our leaders' stupidity.

John, All due respect. Well we hadn't invaded Iraq when the WTC was bombed in 1994, and when they eventually succeeded on 9/11.

Mo, I don't watch Fox. I read, and I like to watch MSNBC after work just to see how the "other side" thinks.

Let me get this straight Rob. Your saying if we had invaded Iraq in 1994 we wouldn't have been attack on 9/11? You do realize Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 don't you? I understand you trying to distance yourself from Fox, but your posts contradict that assertion.

No, I'm saying we were attacked in '94 and 2001 independent of Iraq. These bastards have declared 'holy war' on us. Sorry, I did confuse your reply with John's.

Right, but Bush did make Iraq about 9/11. I saw this dude several years ago on C-Span giving a talk. He stated that al-Queada's 9/11 was 9/11, yet our 9/11 on them was Bush going into Iraq.

A successful Iraq will change the whole dynamic in the Middle East. Just like we are now trading with Vietnam, in several years we will be trading with Iraq. Like it or not, the ideas of the West and capitalism have triumphed. The Middle East needs to recognize this else they will be relegated to the backwaters of history. These bastards are fighting a losing battle.

This is the debate, was Iraq wrong or right? Discuss ...

My statement had nothing to do with 9/11, except that the Bush Administration worked really hard to convince people that Saddam's Iraq was somehow involved. Our invasion, on the other hand, was a fantastic recruitment tool for bin Laden as stated in my original post.

Can you define WHO "declared 'holy war' on us"?

Time will tell if several years from now we'll be trading with Iraq. It's far from a foregone conclusion that they won't end up with a radical Islamic government. After all, what happened when the Bush Administration insisted that the Palestinian Authority have new elections? Fatah, with whom we had familiarity and an uneasy truce were out, a more radical Hamas took their place.

For all those reasons and far more, the Iraq war was wrong.

Why would the right wingers want anything good for those """" terrorist Muslims """" as they call them?

Iran has more control and power over Iraq now.

Dangerfield, Just someone's opinion. Do you YOURSELF have any original thoughts or ideas?

Nope, just likes to sit and tell the Liberals we're all wrong.

Why is it some people think Iraq should be a "little U.S.A."? The people in Iraq are not Americans, their culture is not American, they don't particularly like America, they don't want to be like America and yet a bunch arrogant neo-con Americans want to shove our form of society down Iraq's throat, that's stupid. The Iraq people have fought amongst themselves before we invaded them and they will be fighting amongst themselves after we are gone, it does not matter if we leave today or 50 years from now the result will be the same, and quite frankly it is none of the U.S.A.'s damn business how they conduct themselves within their borders, if they attack us or our allies blow the whole country off the face of the Earth, otherwise let the people of Iraq do whatever they do in Iraq, and exactly the same thing goes for Afghanistan. We are at war here at home and it's about time we concentrate on the injustices happening within our own borders before we become a nation of different warring factions ourselves.

If I did I'd be all alone here...:) (Sloop?)John B-You don't know Jack about my politics, but thanks for the "analysis"anyway.

So, if you can't denigrate the source, you denigrate the person posting the piece, and this constitutes what? dialog? A rebuttal? See, It is a well written, well thought out piece on the contrast between the president's speech and those FACTS many of the regulars are always touting, heck it's even called a fact-check. It was meant as a courtesy and an opportunity to begin a debate/dialog on the issues raised within. I hope that clears things up for you...

I love how as an upper west side new york liberal, I am seldom lock-step liberal enough for the fringe component that comprises the majority on this site...

It's a good piece and you should read it, and maybe discuss the issues raised. That was the point, period.

Gingerbread Mamma

Dangerfield, Just someone's opinion. Do you YOURSELF have any original thoughts or ideas

Thanks for pointing that out Gingerbread Mamma... I was begining to think I was the only one who had noticed... lol & sts

PS: Thanks for the kind words from the other side & *hugs* back at ya!

Haha your troll was collapsed by the "community"!

Now your just a piggy-back troll...I struck a nerve...AGAIN!!!...lololol

Sorry for the typo;

Now you're just a piggy-back troll...

Actually, dangerfield...this is what an elevated level of discourse looks like at First Read.

Yesterday, there was talk of civil war.

dangerfield

I don't suppose you know your article goes contrary to your Fox Noise Echo Chamber talking points. The article says nothing about "winning the war" nor does it "GIVE CREDIT TO GEORGE BUSH" which is what Fox Noise wants you to say. This again proves how INEFFECTIVE your posts are.

Better stop listing to Hannity and O'Reilly they haven't given you a firm grasp on the situation.You are so confused.

Bev Baby,

Fox Noise Echo Chamber talking points

Hannity and O'Reilly

You post something like the above in every response.

Are you mrs. MO? lol 'cause you are definitely "rant-alikes"...:)

Uh, It's an article in the Associated Press?

It fact checks the president's speech, but you are apparently too busy watching fox and posting your anger here to actually read it.

I watch the newshour, washington week, the daily show and read the NYT...no fox or msnbc AT ALL...but I don't expect you to change your tune, well your single note anyway...:)

Have a great day!

Bev-

You've been wrong so many times, that I generally just ignore your posts altogether...

But your take on who dangerfield is so stupefyingly wrong that you've set a whole new standard for obliviousness.

Well done!

Way to go Beverly, you've hit a nerve with no joe and dangerfield. They just can't except who they really are. Their trying to say their something their not.

Unintended Humor Dept #268...thanks MO!

"They just can't except who they really are. Their trying to say their something their not."

Well, you hit me right in the funny-bone and that is a nerve...:)

That's all there is and there ain't no MO...whub, whub, whub...sorry, although you are hilarious, Curly is still my favorite...:)

Mo-1852032

Way to go Beverly, you've hit a nerve with no joe and dangerfield. They just can't except who they really are. Their trying to say their something their not.

Mo,

Neither do they realize newshour, washington week, echo Fox Noise, and that the daily show is comedy. At least the NYT will correct the lies from FOX Noise once they find it to be inaccurate.

Man, talk about obliviousness, they take obliterated and fudamental transformation to whole new level of crazy. And I thought Beck& Palin were the the top coo coos on the right.

Hahaa haa haa

"Neither do they realize newshour, washington week, echo Fox Noise, and that the daily show is comedy. At least the NYT will correct the lies from FOX Noise once they find it to be inaccurate.

(I can't decide if this is funnier or scarier...what's left? Is she getting her news from her household appliances? The vegetable bin at the grocery store?)

Man, talk about obliviousness, they take obliterated and fudamental transformation to whole new level of crazy. (Translation welcome)

And I thought Beck& Palin were the the top coo coos on the right.

Hahaa haa haa"

(I vote for Bachmann and Angle-btw)

I'm beginning to think Bev's hair is CURLY...:)

Well Beverly you finally got dangerfield tied in a knot. It's funny to see him try to untie himself.

I think Mo is a little jealous of Bev...Not knots...curls...:)

(This entire (arguably) amusing thread courtesy of an on-topic article from the AP that was obviously not read by anyone here.)

It was a pretty good piece too...

Must have hit some nerves, tied some knots, and what else do the trolls say when they have no real reply? Feisty?

That's the only thing I dislike about First Read...

Too much subtlety...

And nuance.

Mixed Bag

Sorry, that went right over my head...:)

ah, dangerfield, it has finally happened.

Too much time on this board, and you've lost control. I don't mind, but I do remember when you chided me for being somewhat sarcastic in my posts. You were right, I took the criticism as good advice, but I will point out that spending a lot of time here would try the nerves of a saint.

Welcome to the club.

When you add that Pawlenty simply cannot afford for people to find out how the HCR will help Minnesotans individually,

What's he doing? Putting up firewall so they can't use the internet like in China? At no cost to my state government I was able to find out what's in it for me.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/what-you-get-when-hcr-passes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3590/show

I have never been so angry as when I watched David Gregory interview Tim Pawlety on MTP a few months ago.

Pawlenty is another politician who uses the name of the Lord to cloak himself in some kind of higher authority. I think its reprehensible for politicians to use Christianity as a marketing tool. In fact, it enrages me. Nothing like an attack on one's religious values to make people go ballistic. Funny how the politicians who use Christ to draw votes never consider the even bigger backlash from those who belong to other denominations.

As for Pawlenty's actions as governor of Minnesota, it's up to voters of that state to decide if they support him or not. In Maine, we have a Tea Partier running for governor, and it will be helpful to show Maine voters, look, this is how these guys govern: no healthcare for carpenters, masons, restaurant workers, and the only folks who can have healtcare are those employed by large corporations (except L.L.Bean, if you are considered a seasonal worker.)

And this just in: A MN Public Radio/Humphrey Institute Poll of 750 MN voters finds that 54% of MN Voters disapprove of Pawlenty's out of state travels in his quest for the Presidency. Same % (54) said that they would be unlikely to vote for Pawlenty if he became the GOP nominee for President. Yeah, we don't like Pawlenty much here.

amy-re-read your post. THEN talk about partisan demagoguery.

It is clear that you agree with what Obama is doing-many do not. In fact, his policies are being rejected by majorities of American, and that is why the mid-terms will turn out badly for Democrats under current circumstances.

Those who disagree rely on the rights given to them in the U.S. Constitution. I certainly hope that you will not join Michael Thompson in calling for armed civil war after the mid-terms.

The Tea Party has been calling for armed republicans for 20 months. To name a vew, reload--Palin, every citizen should be armed and dangerous--Bachmann, invoke 2nd amendment rights--Angle, secede--Perry and others. Hardly a call for peace and harmony by those on the right.

nojonobo:

Those who disagree rely on the rights given to them in the U.S. Constitution. I certainly hope that you will not join Michael Thompson in calling for armed civil war after the mid-terms

Do you agree with the US Senate candidate from Nevada that we need a "2nd Amendment remedy" if she doesn't win the election? That's exactly the same thing as calling for civil war. Personally, I'd hate to see anyone, either progressive or conservative, try to use a "2nd Amendment remedy" if their side loses the Nov. elections, especially after seeing how it worked out for the Iraqis these past 7 years.

Well, actually, even as I wrote that final line, I knew somebody would accuse me of being a partisan demagogue, myself. I wish I were more articulate and could explain myself better.

I have seen President Obama personally attacked and ridiculed since he took office, to the point where one in five Americans is said to think he is not a Chritian, when clearly he is. It seems to me the right is very adept at using personal attacks agaist Democratic politicians, to the point where rational debate is not even a possibility.

With my own eyes, I have seen that our President possesses gifts beyond any other politician I have ever seen. The evidence is right there in front of you. If people disagree with the President's policies, then they should argue on that, but don't try to make an arguement the Obama is "weak" or "un-American" and expect anyone to think your opinion is anything but partisan hackery. (I think I just invented a word.)

The Tea Party has been calling for armed republicans for 20 months. To name a vew, reload--Palin, every citizen should be armed and dangerous--Bachmann, invoke 2nd amendment rights--Angle, secede--Perry and others. Hardly a call for peace and harmony by those on the right.

Let's not forget the "patriot" who, at a Town Hall in Asotin, WA advocated the lynching of Senator Patty Murray.

Amy, one of my cherubs was in the audience when Pawlenty was interviewed. I think the thing she and her friends carried away from that was Pawlenty's rudeness and hostility to a person that asked about his beliefs on gay marriage.

"With my own eyes, I have seen that our President possesses gifts beyond any other politician I have ever seen."

That's called hero-worship...that is not political thought, sorry...

lol...sorry, I know you're probably serious, but this is the kind of starry eyed hero-worship that does the president more harm than good.

Amy, you do a fine job in articulating your opinons and obsevations, I always enjoy reading your Down East views. Some people, and we have a few of them here, refuse to acknowledge anything positive about our President and seem to enjoy belittling him and his accomplishments.

'Sticks and stones are hard on bones

Aimed with an angry art, words can sting

But silence breaks the heart' Phyllis McGinley.

This little quote can cut both sides of an argument, so keep speaking out Amy, your voice is needed.

'Sticks and stones are hard on bones

Aimed with an angry art, words can sting

But silence breaks the heart' Phyllis McGinley.

This little quote can cut both sides of an argument, so keep speaking out Amy, your voice is needed."

Yes Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus...but...

I think you may be posting on the wrong site...didn't you mean to post that here?...

http://bieberfever.com/

oh, boy, dangerfield, now you've done it!

No one is allowed to say things like 'hero worship'on this site anymore. Or pork barrel spending. Or anything else that sounds like a criticsm of Obama.

It isn't tolerated.

Not helping Eric.

Why do you disparage your party's President in such harsh terms. You should step back a minute and take a deep breath, before you let loose as you just have done.

Do you still call yourself a Democrat? Talk about giving aid and comfort to the 'enemy', otherwise known as 'talking points'. Make up your mind what you want to be...part of the problem or the solution.

Eric wants to 'turn the page' on the Obama Presidency. I say it is too early to 'throw in the towel' like that. I say Democrats need to 'man up' and FINISH this fight, and not decide in the 4th inning that we are going to lose.

If the Democrats DON'T 'man up', then we ALL lose, including any Republicans out there. I say we ALL lose because the lunatic right wing fringe is trying to call the shots, and they are in NO WAY the voice of America.

If the Democrats don't 'man up', the fringe will control the agenda and then what? Whining? Complaining? Gnashing of teeth? All of that could have been avoided if Democrats would have stopped being like Gov. Palin and QUIT in the middle of the fight.

If you want to see how a Democrat SHOULD act, check out Michael Thompson's Posts from yesterday.

March in lock step or don't even come around...So you can't criticize your own party when you disagree?

"Do you still call yourself a Democrat?" Where I live, democrats have different opinions. We argue, debate, disagree and are still democrats.

And you ridicule the "monolithic" republicans?

Oh, and this would be one of my opinions GBM.

Tyler,

While I realize that the community has the right (and obligation) to self police commentary, perhaps you or someone else within the organization should review those comments scheduled for collapse before actually shutting them down. I have a tendency to review the collapsed commentary, mostly because I like to know what isn't permissible, and several times I've seen comments collapsed that were not in the least offensive. Is the process automatic, like say, five strikes and you're collapsed, or is there an objective review of the comment (by a moderator) to determine if the comment really went too far. Death threats, open calls to violence, sure, shut them down, Eric, shut him down any time you like, but Pat from Boston was collapsed recently for (apparently) an opinion that didn't sit well with some of my compatriots on the right. It appeared to be a pretty vanilla left side of the fence talking point to me, and I doubt any reasonable person was truly offended by it.

So, big question, "What's the collapsing requirement?" As for your suspension of Eric, no doubt you'll have to give him a three day suspension next time.

Tyler;

We tried to warn him. I think you made a fair call. Thanks for restoring the others.

Living in LA: I will disagree with you. On Mon, when Pat equated "white Christians" as "American born terrorists", I think that's way over the top! And, I don't understand why that post was restored. If somebody wrote here "all Muslims are terrorists" that post would be collapsed in seconds. I don't understand why it so acceptable to "bash" Christianity on here, especially according to the community standards.

I hope folks will get it some time that outlandish comments like that or just filth, vulgarity and outright childish name-calling is not acceptable. Disagree on the issues but leave the rest of that hate out of it.

Hi Dirt,

I'm pretty sure that's not the one that I saw, I would have been offended by that, not only because I'm a white Christian, but because that's the type of thing that opens the door to virtually all forms of hate. Perhaps I got the wrong name for the poster, but I thought it was Pat from Boston.

As Tyler doesn't seem to have responded, do you, or does anyone else know the answers to the questions I posed?

It appears that "Collapsed by the Community" is hard coded in the system and it is five flags. That trigger alerts Tyler and team to review; but given the volume of pettiness occurring, I can only assume that it takes a few hours to get ahead of the 'curve' as it were.

Why have your comments been collapsed?

The next time some neo-con wants to go to war with someone, let THEM go and wage war with THEIR families as troops. The fact that these idiots used YOUR families - able bodied men and women - for THEIR little experiment should cause MANY to take a SERIOUS look at what these people are about.

Unfortunately, the same idiots who got us into Iraq are still being treated as respected foreign policy experts on the editorial pages of major newspapers. One of the most gallling examples is Paul Wolfowitz, who assured everyone back in 2003 that the Iraq war would "pay for itsel." Now he's writing op-ed pieces about what to do in Iraq now. Treating clowns like him as authorities on Iraq is like treating a known quack as an authority on medicine.

I don't know-why not ask Jon Corzine?

or Michael Bloomberg?

or Alex Giunnulis, (sp?)

How about instead of asking others, you ask yourself: why is it wrong when republicans do it, but right when democrats do it? And, before you come back with Bloomberg's supposed political party, let me just say that, although he left the dems to join the republicans, he actually belongs to an extremely elite political party: the Bloomberg party. It only has one member.

Yes Pat, we have one here in Fl. talk about degrading the system. This clown, running for Gov.,

Rick Scott and his company Columbia Medical Systems was fined over 15.b (yes billion) for defrauding Medicare and he walked away with his fat share of the prize ..comfortable quasi-retirement.

Pat - I asked that very same question awhile ago...

Meg Whitman spent $71 million out of her own pocket alone in the CA primary which equates to $73.56 PER vote by winning 1,101,074 votes...

All that money for a J O B that pays approximetly $200K per year... doesn't sound like a very good return on her investment now does it?

Meg can afford the write-offs from her personal funds. And, if she elects to use her own money rather than accept funds from UNIONS, leftist organizations (which will never happen), etc., why not? I would rather have her spend her money than be owing the SEIU for future considerations.

If the annual salary doesn't equate to the money spent on the election, and that is an issue with you, how do you equate the large sums the Entitlement Party candidates spend on their races?

The truth is this America. It isn't about DEMs and REPUBs. It is and always has been since time immemoriam about the haves vs the have nots. Why would she spend that kind of money for a job that pays 6 figures? Simple. POWER!!!. Power to influence laws to make sure she and her kids and peers get to KEEP their wealth for generations to come. Power to fight off labor laws so that her businesses and other business owners can keep wages and benefits low. So please dont be fooled by all the political hyperbole. Its all designed to get middle class and poor people all riled up against each other while they all cut back room deals to write laws that benefit all of them.. the uber wealthy.

So if you earn less than 250k a year and religiously vote Republican because of "God and Country and Family values", you are just as deluded as the inner city black person that religiously votes Democrat because of civil rights and getting a better life.

Don't believe me? Ok Republicans. Abortion was signed into law by RICHARD NIXON a Republican who had a Republican congress when he signed it into law!!! NOW the Republicans say its immoral to have abortions. Ok good point, lets not murder babies, but tell me Republicans why haven't they repealed the law under Ford? Reagan? Bush Sr.? Bush Jr? The reason is simple. Because when their trust fund babies get pregnant by "Rex" but "Rex" doesn't want to be a daddy, they send their kids in private to have abortions too. But they tell the faithful " God hates abortion!!!"

Same thing under the Dems. They tell the low income people "let the government pay for it and we'll take it out of the rich people" But then the rich people fire the poor people to save on taxes and the poor people have no jobs" Right now the economy shrunk 6% yet employers laid off 22% of the labor force. Businesses are sitting on about 1.8 trillion dollars cold hard cash that they have been refusing to invest because the dems have told the people " let the government pay for it"

Meanwhile both the rich dem and the rich republican go hunting together and laugh at how stupid "we the people " are.