Ron:

My thoughts as well.

With Democrats proposing to set the top two income tax rates at 36% and 39.6% respectively, Republican leaders are waging a ferocious battle on behalf of the wealthiest American taxpayers (top 2%). Former House Majority Leader and current Tea Party moneyman Dick Armey warned, "This program will not give you deficit reduction." Ohio's John Kasich cautioned, "It's our bet that this is a job killer." And for his part, 2012 White House hopeful Newt Gingrich promised, "This is the Democrat machine's recession, and each one of them will be held personally accountable."

As it turns out, the year was 1993, not 2010. At issue was President Bill Clinton's $496 billion program of stimulus and upper income tax increases. And what Republicans then decried as disaster ushered in the longest economic expansion in modern American history, a period which produced 23 million new jobs and a balanced budget.

But that hasn't stopped the GOP brain trust from resurrecting their 1993 predictions of gloom and doom, forecasts which were spectacularly wrong.

Launching his campaign for House Speaker, Minority Leader John Boehner on Tuesday decried President Obama's "job-killing tax hikes" and called the expiration of the Bush tax cuts for the rich "a recipe for disaster - both for our economy and for the deficit." His Senate counterpart Mitch McConnell told Fox News, "It would be a disaster." On Meet the Press last week, Dick Armey rejected the notion of returning the tax rates for the top 2% of earners back to their Clinton-era levels, mocking Obama's "new cockamamie ideas" and insisting the President "not raise taxes and take away the return on an investment" And as Newt Gingrich predicted in July:

“This economy will sink deeper into recession. There will be higher unemployment. The recovery will be longer”

How soon the republicans forget the 2 unfunded wars, the 2 unfunded tax cuts, the unfunded prescription drug plan, deregulation of Big Business (this has killed people), and the deregulation of Wall Street that has wiped out trillions of dollars of people life savings. This mismanagement and incompetence of the previous administration has lead us to the greatest economic disaster since the great depression that will take a decade to dig out from. Once again the republicans are a little short on the facts and their agenda is to create record deficits and destroy the Middle Class. Period. They will use fear, hate and lies to push this mass destruction of America forward.

To follow up on this, Thursday I watch MSNBC and

Looks like former New York Gov. George Pataki decided to take his turn following in John Boehner's shoes with some revisionist history on MSNBC Thursday morning.

Republicans have been trying very hard to blame President Obama for the nation’s deficit (which he largely inherited from the previous administration), but former Gov. George Pataki (R-NY) today may have gone to the most absurd lengths yet. On MSNBC, Pataki said that the health care reform bill that became law this year is “one of the reasons we have this deficit”. Oh, and what about the leftover crap we are still paying for from the GW administration?

And this is priceless; Pataki made no attempt to explain how a law that was passed this year and has yet to be implemented could have possibly caused this year’s deficit. Once again the republicans spouting misinformation and playing the fear card, right out of Rove’s political manual. We have voodoo and trickle down economics and now some really FUZZY math. The lies and spin coming out of the Republican Party is unbelievable and never stops.

It should be noted that the Affordable Care Act not only adds nothing to the deficit this year, but is entirely deficit neutral. As Igor Volsky pointed out earlier, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released a letter this week stating that the Affordable Care Act “will produce $143 billion in net budgetary savings over the 2010-2019 period.” Repealing the parts of the law that Republicans love to gripe about would cause an increase in deficits of $455 billion.

Ok, once again; Tax Cuts do not pay for themselves, they increase the deficit, Tax Cuts for the richest 2% do not create jobs, they add 830 Billion to the deficit and repealing HCR will add to the deficit as well.

The Paul Ryan budget proposal will balance the budget in 10 years without raising taxes

Republicans will not talk about the details of that proposal, such as privatizing social security and turning Medicare into a voucher program with vouchers that will increasingly not meet the costs of medical care for the elderly. Instead, they will just assert "we did it", fend off Democrats' attempts to point out its failings as political derogatory, and win the November elections with Tea Party, traditional Republican and "Independent" support.

Democrats need to bring this budget proposal to a vote before the November elections so the voting public can be reminded of what Republicans are all about. If Republicans vote for it they will loose the Independents and if they vote against it they will alienate the Tea Party.

One of the things that always strikes me about the natural world is the inability of people to understand “Geologic Time”. Some things, like the creation of the Grand Canyon for example, take so long that we don’t even realize things are changing. What we see is what’s always been. Even when it isn’t. Unfortunately it works on shorter time scales. A High School teacher friend once told me “tradition to a High School kid is what happened 3 years ago.”

Fortunately education and the study of history is the remedy for that. Unfortunately not enough of us do it, or pay attention. We forget (or never knew) that the Republicans were once the Liberals, the Democrats the Conservatives. That’s why in days of old the GOP had its natural base in the North, the Democratic Party in the South. We may know that the 14^th Amendment was a reaction to Dred Scott, but how many of us know it was also a response to ugly racism that culminated in the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/ushistory/angel/exclusion_act/ ? We know there are people who today who describe themselves as Progressives. How many of us can actually explain how today’s Progressives differ in ideas and ideals from those of 100 years ago. It’s a significant difference.

Now history itself is under attack. After years of claiming that Martin Luther King was a Communist http://www.martinlutherking.org/articles.html the Right has decided it would be better to appropriate his image and declare instead that he was a Conservative http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html . People are told on a daily basis to not believe scholars and teachers, people with a love of the subject. THEIR motives are questionable. To that I can only say, don’t ignore the man behind the curtain http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1 .

Some wisdom is forever. Among those nuggets: Follow the money. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074119/quotes

You forgot the part about how millions of Americans don't know what is best for themselves and "don't vote in their best interest" and how they need the Dems to show these ignorant people the right way to peace, fairness and socialism...

Since when do across the board tax cuts only benefit the wealthy? If EVERYBODY'S taxes are cut, how does that translate to only cutting taxes for the wealthy?

In a country where almost half of all people do not pay income taxes, but instead get welfare in the form of refundable tax credits, it takes a special brand of hubris to complain when tax cuts are implemented for all.

No wonder envy is one of the seven deadly sins. It also seems to be one of the planks in the Democratic platform.

Isn't it funny that the federal bureaucracy known as the Department of Education is swimming in money, teachers make higher salaries than middle managers with much better healthcare and pension programs, yet, you claim, schools are so poor that children are bringing in toilet tissue. You don't find something wrong with that scenario? I do. For the record, the only schools I know of that are doing that, asking students to supply the toilet tissue, are in Illinois-which has stopped paying its bills because they refuse to either cut programs or raise taxes to pay for them.

The baby-boomers will NOT be affected by raising the age of social security retirement to 70-those workers forty and under would be. As it is, this year the age to receive SS is 66-it is going up to 67. You think three years for somebody 40 or under is such a great big deal? I don't , but perhaps, like CA in Tuscaloosa, you think those younger workers will turn to selling drugs as a result. Democrats will believe anything, it seems.

Like, there are no solutions, only problems. Like, businesses are evil-they are refusing to hire people just so it looks bad for Obama. Like, you can add another entitlement program, but it will cost less and cut the deficit.

One of these days, OIbama is going to come out and declare that the sky is plaid, and this board will be filled with lefties insisting that it is true.

Dennis,

Didn't the CBO score his plan and find that he had left out some important numbers and made some erroneous assumptions? I thought their scoring showed that it actually increased the debt over 10 years more than if nothing was done to address tax revenues or spending cuts.

Forgive me for not providing a link, I don't have one at hand. I may be wrong but I don't have the time to look for a link, right now.

Good Morning Ron & Fiesty

Great truthful post as usual. Last night Keith had me in stitches calling John Boehnor'S major speech on economic policy... CODE ORANGE!!! LOL

The Orange Man thinks our economic woes to the fact that “taxpayers are subsidizing the fattened salaries and pensions of federal bureaucrats who are out there right now making it harder to create private sector jobs.”

Plue-e-e-e-z-eee

It’s true workers at all levels of government now earn more than their private-sector counterparts. But that’s mainly because private-sector benefits have...

dropped precipitously over the last few years

Companies have replaced defined-benefit pensions with do-it-yourself 401(k)s

have ratcheted up premiums, co-payments, and deductibles on employee health-care

Government workers’ benefits haven’t yet been sliced the diced these ways but the cuts are coming.

Keith pointed out that according to the Center for State and Local Government Excellence, 48 percent of state and local employees have a college degree while only 23 percent of private-sector employees do.

Blaming government workers for this bad economy is absurd.

The Great Recession continues because consumers can’t and won’t spend. They’re overwhelmed with credit-card debt, their mortgages are under water, their nest eggs have become chick peas, and they can’t afford health insurance.

Rather than help alleviate all this, Boehner and his Republican colleagues have been busily voting against extending unemployment insurance, against reorganizing mortgages under bankruptcy, against forcing credit card companies to stop charging exorbitant interest, and against giving Americans affordable health insurance.

All Republicans want to do is...

privatize Social Security,

extend the Bush tax cuts to the richest 3 percent of Americans and deregulate

Privatizing Social Security would put retirees entirely at the mercy of the Wall Street casino.

Extending the Bush tax cuts to the richest 3 percent wouldn’t stimulate demand because the very rich save rather than spend most of their extra cash.

Definitely we need more rather than less regulation.

does BP’s oil spill ring a bell?

does Massey’s mine cave-in, ring a bell?

does DeCoster’s rotten eggs ring a bell?

does Goldman Sach’s predations ring a bell does Wellpoint’s double-digit insurance premium increases ring a bell?

Watch all the low information voters (read ignorant) totally ignore the bells ringing and refute factual evidence that government workers make less that private sectors.

Even Paul Krugman said… the stimulus was too small. True, it was enough to limit the depth of the slump — a recent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office says unemployment would probably be well into double digits now without the stimulus — but it wasn’t big enough to bring unemployment down significantly; imagine would it would belike if Repubs (Masquerading Tea Baggers) to get power continue to say “NO?”

Bells should be ringing!!!

Honestly? Those were his "ideas"? The way to make it better is by making everything worse?

Who profits from that? The answer seems obvious to me.

I'm beginning to think that for all his "orange," Boehner lacks Vitamin C in his diet.

C being "compassion."

Ron,

Love the way you broke down the Republican "proposals" to what they actually are, more of the same stuff that has not been working for all these years.

You know what I keep wondering? If we have people working until the age of 70, won't that just exacerbate the unemployment problem in this country? Don't we already have more people than jobs? Wish some intrepid reporter out there would ask that question.

John B the problem with your statement is this:

most professors / teachers are progressives.

I am currently taking a speech class through Minot State University (obviously a state run school) last night we were discussing ethics in speech giving and listening to the professor you would have thought that Barack Obama was Jesus incarnate because the way he was explaining what Obama is doing things are great and we just need to get used to unemployment being 10% and this that and the other. When it came to George Bush though every issue this country is facing today is Bush's fault.

First off I didnt think this was the right class for this discussion to be happening in....second of all there was so much bias coming fom the instructor you would have thought he was getting paid by the Obama admin.

The lest time I checked colleges are supposed to present the true informtaion and then allow the student to make his/her decision on their own based on just the fact.

But in today's colleges (heck even in the elementary schools with kids being made to sing praises to Obama and then in middle school / high school with videos made by the Tides Foundation denouncing capitalism) is proffeors are teaching their BELIEFS as if they are truths (a simple example would be evolution -- if you believe that we did not, in fact, come from monkeys and that the description of the beginning of eart happened just as it was recorded in Genesis you are backwood and stupid).

No wonder so manuy young americans (my generation --Im 30 -- and younger) are coming out as progressives....

Progressives and liberals have a choke hold on the education system and have made it to where if their values and ideals arent taught you cant recieve federal funds.

This is why the Education department needs to be abolished. Education is just now yet another political tool used to shape people into whatever a certain group wants them to be.

Well said, Ron. Boehner's speech was predictable; in fact, most of us were correct in our pre-Boehner speech evaluation.

Social security is funded, there is no shortage of dollars, there is no need to raise the retirement age to 70. The Social Security Trust is able to meet the demands until 2037 without cutting benefits for anyone and without raising the age to 70. By simply raising the cap on income exempted, it would allow full funding indefinitely beyond 2037. Yet, there are the republicans wanting to KILL social security and telling people it is necessary.

President Eisenhower predicted there would be those who would advocate to eliminate social security, that it would be a disaster to do so, and any party that did would cease to exist.

No Jo,

Isn't it funny that the federal bureaucracy known as the Department of Education is swimming in money, teachers make higher salaries than middle managers with much better healthcare and pension programs,

If any body know its you, that years ago all teachers could get when bargianing with the school boards was great health ins. one year my mom got no raise but they contributed more for her health ins. it was a cheap way of paying teachers 30 years ago. so don't blame the teachers for that, blame the school boards who had no forth site to think, they should have given then raises instead of better health ins,. either you pay now or you pay later and they are paying later.

Another Ditto Head

Biden mocked Boehner then stated "We're headed in the right direction".

This is in a nutshell is why business is not hiring, not expanding. American business cannot invest to hire/expand, when this Administration does not even have a clue.

Ivan Seidenberg, CEO of Verizon stated in June warned of the anti-business slant in Washington and stated "Tax hikes , regulation and constant policy shifts harm our ability to grow private sector jobs in the U.S."

Paul Otellini, CEO of Intel stated this past week, "I think this group does not understand what it takes to create jobs"; "unless government policies change, and change fast, the next big thing will not be invented here. Jobs will not be created." "Massive spending, failure to extend tax cuts, takeover of health care, threat of new taxes, .... " "If the ruling class keeps going down this road, people will not invest in the U.S., they will invest elsewhere."

Soaring government spending, massive debt, more regulations, higher taxes on the individual, investor and business, new laws, strict rules on entire industries as has already happened on Wall Street, the auto industry, the energy industry, health care industry......

We have an ideological government that has no understanding of business. Until that changes, the economy won't either.

Matthew,

Yes it added several trillion to the debt over 10 years.

This is only one of the reasons that the Republican leadership has not openly promoted his plan. This is one of the things I believe they will tout in October so the public can’t see how full of holes it is. That is why our House leadership should call it to be brought up for a vote.

Larry,

In the middle school where I taught one 6th grade teacher had a poster of George W. Bush on the wall. She defended it by saying, well he's the President of the United States, isn't he? And I agree, she had a point. The 7th grade social studies teacher was a big Richard Nixon fan and he had HIS picture on the wall. He was also very open about his Republican beliefs, which was OK, because he didn't so much preach to the kids as he did share his passion for politics.

I think you are painting educators with a broad brush by calling them all progressives. Even if your teacher is a Liberal Democrat who idolizes President Oama, well, he is entitled to his opinion. It's a speech class - why don't you practice your powers of persuasion to make your case? If you are as articulate in person as you are in writing, I am sure you will get an A. Don't be shy!

Bob, Not all CEO agree:

Do Taxes and Regulations impact hiring?

“But when Speer (CEO of Quality Float Works) and other executives were pressed on the role that tax and regulatory policies play in hiring, they drew only vague connections. Speer said his decision whether to hire is driven primarily by demand for his products. Orders are coming in strong enough that he is running about 20 hours a week of overtime. So he is weighing whether to hire two or three additional manufacturing workers.”

“None of the executives interviewed linked a specific new government initiative with a specific decision to refrain from hiring.”

"It took us a decade to get in the ditch we are in," Speer said. "There isn't going to be instant gratification to get us out of it. We're going to have to get used to a lower growth economy, and that is going to be a big adjustment for all of us."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/20/AR2010082005165.html?hpid=topnews

Seems like the new ideas promoted by the Democrats. "Let the government handle it." Socialize America so we can be like our brothers/sisters in South America and China.

U.S. Navy, Dennis, John B and too many to name, super posts.

The problem with the Bush tax cuts is this. Yes, they were across the board but that in itself provides built in inequity favoring those with the most. If a company gives a 5% across the board pay raise to every employee, those making the least receive the least; those making the most, receive the most. Both the democratic and republican proposals regarding GOP TAX HIKE are nearly identical for all brackets except the highest one. The highest tax bracket would receive under democrats, a $6,349 tax cut; under the GOP plan, that bracket receives $103,837 tax break. Big difference.

The reason the stimulus wasn't big enough--republicans. They watered it down and then voted against it. Had majority rule applied in the Senate instead of minority blockade, today's economic picture would be rosier.

The big Republican plan to create jobs:

– The plan, titled the Economic Freedom Act of 2010, would add nearly $7 trillion in deficits over the next ten years. Coupled with their plan to renew all of the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003, the GOP’s proposal costs a whopping $10 trillion.

– Their two solutions for paying for this spending spree — repealing TARP and the remaining stimulus funds — covers less than five percent of the total cost.

– The tax benefits of the plan overwhelmingly go to the very rich. In 2012, 61.5 percent of the tax benefits would go to the richest one percent of households.

– Under the plan, the average middle-class taxpayer receives a tax cut of $467 ($9/wk). The average taxpayer in the richest one percent (with an average income of $1.4 million) receives a tax cut of $157,500 ($3,300/wk).

The GOP jobs plan also includes a huge corporate tax cut. Not only are these tax cuts incredibly expensive, they also provide little “bang for the buck” in terms of job creation, according to both the Congressional Budget Office and Moody’s Economy.com.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2010/08/pdf/republican_jobs_plan.pdf

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/03/gop-jobs-plan-analysis/

I hope the Democrats keep stressing your point about the fact that this argument was made and refuted back in 1993. President Clinton left office WITH A SURPLUS. Without going into how the surplus was squandered, let's try to reduce the deficit with in this proven manner.

One reason to privatize Social Security for the Republicans would be all the fees that companies like Goldmann Sachs would make for handling the investments in the private accounts. They are simply doing their masters' bidding.

Nashville--I agree with your point that a downside to raising the retirement age is keeping older employees in the labor pool and not making room for new ones.

Jody ~ "intrepid reporter" is an oxymoron, in more ways than one.

"No wonder Greed is one of the seven deadly sins. It also seems to be one of the planks in the Republican platform."

Adjusted for the purposes of accuracy and in the interest of being fair and balanced, because I know that's an issue for so many these days. - MT

Good Morning Larry, Minot, N.D.

First off I didnt think this was the right class for this discussion to be happening in....second of all there was so much bias coming fom the instructor you would have thought he was getting paid by the Obama admin.

You say it was a state run institution your teachers salary is paid by the government? For education,the Federal Government and every State,County,City,and Municipality uses taxpayers money for eductaion.

___________________________________________--

This is why the Education department needs to be abolished. Education is just now yet another political tool used to shape people into whatever a certain group wants them to be.

Larry, it appears you need to stay in school; and get an eduction so that you can learn more about politics in your community and the world. Politics determines everything in your life. In the U.S. the constitution allows one to elect leaders. Ironically, Teabaggers shout and stomp about the US becoming a socialist regime. But it's politics which determines the power to shape a result. Poltics affects how elected officals represent people from many walks of life including... schools, Job training centers, Senior centers, advocation for causes, bridges, tunnels and other-public works projects, rescue disaster victims, prevention of diseases, Hospitals, and Emergency services. You should really take time to view Rachel Maddow's piece on Katrina 5 yrs later. You'll learn a lot the government and how it works.

That's why I voted for NY-23: Democrat Bill Owens capitalized on GOP-vs.-Tea Party infighting and captured the special congressional election victory on Election Day 2009.

Tea baggers stomp and shout about politics; but don't understand they are stomping for the rich and have no clue that they are only enhancing those voting against your very basic needs. I don't believe Tea Baggers especially with all the perversions Glenn Beck and the right are teaching, the Tea bagger will be Sacoffizzed.

Stay in School; Larry.

Michael ~ Not me. Tilt it towards my side, for a change. We've had enough tilting towards yours.

Let me see if I understand this:

I put myself through school nights without government help, worked full-time in order to save enough money to go back for advanced degrees full time without government help, and now I would like to keep the money I EARN.

Only in the mind of a liberal does that equal greed.

Here's a few "new" ideas for America to fix problems we face if we put politics aside and want to regain our freedom and world status.

1. Social Security...repeal the change to the law that first allowed Lyndon Johnson to "dip" into the fund and Congress to pilfer it since. Increase the limit for contributions from $106k+ to $250k. Force Congress to repay the IOU's they have given it as a budget item each year until the trillions they have taken are repaid.

2. Medicare/Medicaid...privatise it and have a Government oversight committee....the private sector always seems to be more effecient than the bureaucrats in Congress.

3. Postal Service...turn this over to Federal Express and United Parcel Service..they both do better and make a profit.

4. Finally, scrap the rediculous tax code and go to a flat tax with a poverty level income before tax and a personal deduction only. The more you make, the more you will pay and everyone is treated equally. Drop the estate takes since taxes have already been paid on these funds already. The Goverment is "double dipping" when they re-tax someone's inheritance.

There...some different ideas than either party is offering...so let the criticisim and @!$%#ing begin!!!

Dennis,

I'm not sure if Speer with his 2-3 extra workers carries the weight of the head of the Buisness Round Table, or a guy that employees 80,000 employees and spends a billion to open a new facility..... but, with respect to demand, the massive spending and debt is not free. The individual, investors, everyone knows taxes are coming, all the uncertainty, everyone is scared - they are not buying, investing, etc... There is no demand.

Lack of demand is a symptom of the problems I mentioned.

“None of the executives interviewed linked a specific new government initiative with a specific decision to refrain from hiring.”

That was the point of my comments. The problem is not "a specific new government initiative". The problem is an administration that does not have a clue. Obama was lost the confidence of Big Business, Small Business and the American people because of his policies and failure. He is completely out of his depth, business realizes this and is warning, speaking out more and more.

Biden is too deaf to hear their voice and too obtuse to even know what direction we are going. Obama, either in the pursuit of his social agenda doesn't care, or is too narcissistic to realize how economically ignorant he is and the damage he is doing.

BTW- Instead of worrying about Rand's budget, how about Obama do a budget like the one required by law.

"I put myself through school nights without government help, worked full-time in order to save enough money to go back for advanced degrees full time without government help, and now I would like to keep the money I EARN."

******************************************************************************

That is a wonderful story of self-sufficiency and a wonderful narrative about the American dream. However, that entire narrative is strangely absent from the Republican party platform, which appears to be mostly about protecting the already existing wealth of the already wealthy and insuring that the already existing wealth of the already wealthy becomes generational so that the children of the already wealthy don't have to put themselves through the bother of having to experience your wonderful narrative of self-sufficiency, self-sacrifice, and personal accountability.

I am not talking about the right wing libertarians that call themselves the tea party. I am talking about the current Republican party. And there's nothing in their platform that applies to your narrative at all. Aside from that, you were remarking earlier this year about how you and your husband were going to contribute to the economy by purchasing your second house or something along those lines, so forgive me if I think you have a little difficulty relating to the issues of the institutionally impoverished.

I can certainly understand you wanting your wealth to be protected. But don't try to dress up your personal greed by clothing it in the trappings of societal responsibility.

"Medicare/Medicaid...privatise it and have a Government oversight committee....the private sector always seems to be more effecient than the bureaucrats in Congress.the private sector always seems to be more effecient than the bureaucrats in Congress."

- us born

====================================================================

Really? What are you basing that on?

When it comes to Medicare, the "private sector" is actually getting government payments . . . for what I don't know:

When congressional Republicans first began expanding private insurance Medicare options in 1997, advocates argued the plans would deliver services more efficiently, and hence less expensively, than Medicare's traditional fee-for-service reimbursement.

But the spending on Advantage plans grew over time . . .

As a result, the private plans now cost the government about 14 percent more per person than regular Medicare, according to an analysis by the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, which recommends reimbursement rates to Congress.”

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-tc-nw-medicare-0818-0819aug19,0,667936.story

So a program that was designed to deliver services “less expensively” now costs the government 14 percent more per person than regular Medicare . . . how is that the "private sector" being "more efficient"?

But wait, there's more:

Because private plans receive a 12-percent overpayment, on average, for each Medicare beneficiary they enroll (with overpayments to private fee-for-service plans averaging 19 percent), private plans have a significant incentive to maximize enrollment. As a result, many private plans have established lucrative commission structures for their insurance agents, providing as much as $500 per new enrollee, as well as free trips and other financial inducements. “

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=513#q7

I mean, what are we supposed to believe, talking points or our lying eyes - oil rigs leaking, coal mines exploding, Wall Street collapsing, housing market imploding, health care rationed for a profit . . . all of these are private sector stories . . . and yet "the guvment" gets the blame . . . strange.

no joe,

Your taxes are at their lowest rate in 60 years, so what are you complaining about?

Nobody is taking anything for you, you are getting back MORE than you put in in the form of community services that you take for granted that you could not afford to pay for in the private sector.

Heck, if you lived in Alaska, you would be getting back more than you put in.

You are not paying anymore than the rest of us, so please, please, please put a sock in it.

bob, I’m sure this is no surprise to you but I don’t agree. These were small business owners – you know - the engine of our economy. What they need is cash which the Banks won’t lend and the Republicans in the Senate are blocking the bill that helps them.

Also please explain the “budget law” you speak of.

We may know that the 14^th Amendment was a reaction to Dred Scott, but how many of us know it was also a response to ugly racism that culminated in the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/ushistory/angel/exclusion_act/ ?

The Fourteenth Amendment (Amendment XIV) to the United States Constitution was adopted on July 9, 1868 as one of the Reconstruction Amendments.

So, an amendment adopted in 1868 was also a reaction to a law passed in 1882? How f...en brilliant were legislators back then?

BTW Can someone explain to me how the stimulus which is only around 75% spent is too small. Exactly what could they have spent more on by now except for tax cuts? Where are all the shovel ready projects? Are they in states that don't have Democratic governors?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/08/26/christie_on_race_to_the_top_error_does_anybody_in_dc_have_common_sense.html

BTW I predict now that President Obama will NOT win NJ in 2012, and he'd better hope that Governor Christie does not decide to run for president.

See, what I find sad is that the Repubs are actually spending more then the Democrats and using the same stradegies that they created almost 2 decades ago, that haven't worked and have landed us in the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression. And we know have the Tea Party who are going to try to get ellected and bring in a whole host of radical changes to the US Goverment. The most frightening of these ideas being the repeal of the 14th Amendment, purely because we have a illegal immigration problem.

Whenever a conservatives says something to the extent of "Ha! See the liberals are scared now!" it should occur to you that maybe it is because some of the ideas of the conservatives are scary. And with this new "Let's get our country back," mentality, really they want to not "get" our country back more like "bring" our country back---back to the era of the Robber Barons, and even further socially.

They do not want to help you, so much as help their rich backers and screw you over.

Alan,

There should have been another trillion dollars solely for infrastructure projects and spread over years 2 thru 5 for sustained spending and private sector growth.

bob-1805084
So, if I understand your position, allowing businesses total freedom to do whatever they want to do is the only answer to keeping our economy viable. If they are not afforded this, then they will move to countries with no environmental controls and will pollute the land, water and air because it is better for their bottom line. Forget safety in the work place; that is bad for buisness. Oh yes, these workers can get by on less that a dollar a day.
All for the share holders and, of course, the companies execs and their bonuses.
These two examples you gave just shows that these two are whinners and cryers out for only themselves rather than working on figuring out the new rules that they have to work by.

There should have been another trillion dollars solely for infrastructure projects and spread over years 2 thru 5 for sustained spending and private sector growth.

...and how would that help now? They haven't even spent 60% of infrastructure so far. The biggest expenditure so far is tax cuts at around 77%. What could we accelerate in infrastructure area that couldn't already have been started? I know lets borrow a trillion dollars and build a high-speed rail link that no one will use unless we subsidize it with tax dollars. Or, we could build I new national grid for all those wind-farms in Kansas, Oklahoma and Arkansas, that would generate electricity that cost more.

Did you just pull the trillion out of the air, or is this another Paul Krugman idea?

Morning folks!

Ron – As much as I dislike Boehner, I do think there is some merit to the idea of upping the age at which a person can obtain Social Security. Our population is living longer, and the program should be adapted to reflect that. It’s not politically popular, but politicians should be willing to do unpopular things at times for our country. It’s why we elect them (not that I elected, or would ever elect Boehner).

As for de-funding education, I don’t think we shouldn't de-fund, we should re-allocate. In California there are more people working in education as support staff and in administrative positions than there are teachers. My wife is a teacher here in CA, and she relies on those other workers often. But when there are more people to guide and support teacher than those who teach, I’d say it’s a bit excessive.

Beverly – I think the problem with government workers’ earnings is their pensions, but that’s a problem at state and local levels. In my city, for instance, pensions were as high as 98% of a worker’s final year salary. Most workers are currently obtaining max pensions of 75-77% here. It’s a large drain on resources and goes largely unreported because of governmental accounting rules.

US-born – Medicare is actually a far more efficient system of health-care delivery than the private sector, in terms of where your dollar goes. In medicare, 99% of your healthcare dollar goes to medical care. In the private sector, it’s about 67-70%.

Bob – the supposed “cluelessness” of this administration has nothing to do with the lack of growth/new hires. Consumers drive the majority of the economy, not the government. If people were buying, they’d expand, no matter what uncertainty they perceived. This talk of uncertainty is a scapegoat businesses are using to impede attempts of reformation by the current administration.

In a perfect world (as I see it) each individual taxpayer would pay taxes based on his/her ability/income fairly. How many of the lower 98% of you have off shore accounts in the Cayman Islands, or Switzerland, etc....? Thought so.... the rich can do this, and are rewarded well for their tax avoidance scheme....fair .....?

Now corporations are being rewarded for this same tax avoidance scheme, and sending our jobs overseas to increase profits..... fair?

I think Henry Ford had the right philosophy when he paid his workers enough money so they could afford his products, now the people with no jobs are not buying.

We make a fundamental mistake every time we buy a 2$ Chinese wrench, we've invested in China not America, but profits are up so alls well for corporations, and the Chinese are playing us for fools!

Maybe when you'll work for 22 cents /hr you'll have a job, good luck with buying that Ford!

Alan,

No – I'm talking about repairing all of our failing infrastructure we currently have.

Dams & levies, water & sewage systems, unsafe bridges and repair and upgrading of our power grid are in need of help. It is estimated that $2.2 trillion is needed over the next 5 years just to bring these system from a grade "D" to a "B".

I would get the money the same place the money came from the 2 wars and Medicare Advantage. At least we would create some private sector jobs with this money.

Anon Monster....agree with most of what you say. I don't get the arguments against raising the age of SS although I would like to retire earlier. The argument that more people live through child is stupid (but so is Ezra Klein). So if they live to 65 - 70 that means there are more retirees to pay for out of current revenues. And why they don't understand that Baby Boomers are the largest demographic and so there will be more retirees and less workers paying is beyond me.

On your point on Medicare I agree up to a point. There really is an incredible amount of fraud in the system as I believe doctors game the system. There is also a number of scams. They do need to divert some funds to fraud control, you never know it may pay for itself.

On the local government pensions here in NJ we have the same issue and predict it will grow as a political issue. Bell, CA I hope was an outlier but it will be used as an example of what is basically fraud.

Nice post though.

Alan Wrote: There should have been another trillion dollars solely for infrastructure projects and spread over years 2 thru 5 for sustained spending and private sector growth.

...and how would that help now? They haven't even spent 60% of infrastructure so far. The biggest expenditure so far is tax cuts at around 77%. What could we accelerate in infrastructure area that couldn't already have been started? I know lets borrow a trillion dollars and build a high-speed rail link that no one will use unless we subsidize it with tax dollars. Or, we could build I new national grid for all those wind-farms in Kansas, Oklahoma and Arkansas, that would generate electricity that cost more

The idea would be to repair and upgrade existing infrastructure. A study done a few years back (wish I could remember the source… it was in a textbook) examined our infrastructure and grade us on an A-F scale. We got a D-. Our existing roads, bridges, dams, etc are not getting the maintenance/repairs they need. Spending money on these projects would put people to work, allowing them to buy products and services, prompting businesses to expand.

*EDIT* Dennis beat me to it.

Gee Bob,

Why didn't you give that advice to GWB. I know, let's give the rich more tax cuts. Maybe they can hire americans to do their yard work instead of Brazilians. Maybe we can give corporations big tax cuts. Maybe they can start hiring like crazy, in Tailand. Maybe there's no demand because people have no income to buy things. Maybe there's no jobs because there all overseas. It's better for corporate profits that way. The rich want their dividends. Business is still hiring, just not here. When the middle class is gone, they can't sell their products here anymore.

I would get the money the same place the money came from the 2 wars and Medicare Advantage.

You mean from China? Why stop there? Medicare D was unfunded too. Why not do away with that program? And why stop at a trillion? Can you borrow enough so I can retire at 55 on Social Security? I mean the bank has infinite funds doesn't it? You think other countries in the world can borrow indefinitely ? I mean worked out well for Argentina and Iceland and Greece and Mexico and I sure all those really poor African countries will be able to upgrade their infrastructure with borrowed funds.

BTW I was against Iraq and Medicare D. I also think we should be out of Afghanistan by now.

What the hell does it mean "Paul Ryan's plan balances the budget in 10 years"??

You mean, it doesn't do it in 18 months, like Obama is expected to do???

Alan,

So you didn’t really want a discussion after all.

Have a good week end !

Anon:

You just don't understand. That would not be 'real' work because it would be financed by the government and be temporary in nature. The circulation of the currency through the economy as a result of those 'fake' jobs would be illusory, because as we all know, according to St. Rand, anyone who takes a job that is primarily paid through government funds is a 'leech.' No, no it is far better to allow the leeches to lose everything they have and slowly starve to death.

A far better use of currency in our economy is to allow it to idly sit in the bank accounts of the ultra-wealthy and collect interest or to be used by the ultra-wealthy to make greater personal fortunes based on the failures of other businesses. Taxing that money would be wrong. Because how else could we possibly go to them on bended knee and request, (with a tear in our eye and a quaver in our voice), that they perhaps allow us to have a little and to perhaps use those funds to employ some of the 'little' people?

On second thought... what was I thinking? Our economic overlords have more houses, cars, boats, and small islands to buy. Dopey me. Them using their money to employ others was shortsighted of me.

But perhaps one day, if they are feeling overly generous, they might sprinkle a bit in our direction to pacify us and dampen the obnoxious sounds of our constant mewling for a nation that functions.

I would get the money the same place the money came from the 2 wars and Medicare Advantage.

You mean from China? Why stop there? Medicare D was unfunded too. Why not do away with that program? And why stop at a trillion? Can you borrow enough so I can retire at 55 on Social Security? I mean the bank has infinite funds doesn't it? You think other countries in the world can borrow indefinitely ? I mean worked out well for Argentina and Iceland and Greece and Mexico and I sure all those really poor African countries will be able to upgrade their infrastructure with borrowed funds.

I'm all for fiscal responsibility, but holding on to debt isn't a bad thing. People buy homes on credit, cars, etc. They then pay back those loans over time, effectively expensing the cost of the item over the time it's used, like any company would and the government should. I do agree that we are rapidly approaching the point where our debt severely impairs the growth of our economy. But, I believe a well planned second stimulus, this one heavy on infrastructure, would bring back growth and allow us to pay down the debt (assuming people didn't forget about it in the wake of future prosperity).

I'd like to set this straight, as it really irks me. China, our largest international creditor, owns less than 1 trillion of our nation's debt instruments. Our debt to China amounts to less than 8% of the national debt. The American people hold just shy of 70% of the national debt. So let's not worry about the red invasion, lets worry about the fact that we're stuck holding the bag if things go wrong.

Dennis,

Scale is different, but the fundamental principles are the same - Business 101, a course nobody in the Obama Administration seems to have taken.

Good point about Small Business. Small Business actually provides as much as 85% of job creation. Their problem is the same as Big Business. Big Business can get 3% money and they won't expand because of their reasons mentioned in my comments. Same with Small Business and as you stated Speer's problem is not a bank loan it is demand. Demand problem is a symptom of uncertainty stated in my comments. What do you not understand?

"Budget law"? Are you serious? You do not know that by law Obama must submit a budget? You do not know that he hasn't had the courage to present one yet, because of the disastrous effect it will have on the elections and markets?

Steven,

I didn't say total freedom, I quoted business leaders who didn't say that either.

"I can definitely tell you that it takes $1 Billion more per factory to build, equip and operate a semi-conductor manufacturing facility in the U.S. 90% of that is added cost due to taxes and regulations." - Paul Otellini, CEO of Intel

Why would you listen to this whiner? What is the big deal if he takes his 80,000 jobs somewhere else? Same with Verizon and all the others! The magnitude of this obtuse thinking is stunning.

Anon,

Government cannot create private sector jobs. Government can destroy private sector job creation. Government's only function is to provide reasonable protections and create an environment in which the individual and business can thrive. It is what made the this country the exceptional country it became. Fact Anon. The "Scapegoating" argument is what you argue when you are as clueless as the clueless administration you so desperately try to defend.

Gee rouge, is that really your best shot?

Sir,

I believe I saw it here. The Republicans don't have ideas. They base their platform on the telling of a lie and saying no. The "American" majority which the Republicans feel they own is somehow in agreement with the lies. How do "We" cope with that?

Bob wrote: Anon,

Government cannot create private sector jobs. Government can destroy private sector job creation. Government's only function is to provide reasonable protections and create an environment in which the individual and business can thrive. It is what made the this country the exceptional country it became. Fact Anon. The "Scapegoating" argument is what you argue when you are as clueless as the clueless administration you so desperately try to defend.

Bob,

I didn’t say the government would create private sector jobs. The public sector jobs, temporary though they may be, would be used to effect demand, prompting the private sector to create jobs.

We could argue for days as to what it was that made this country great, and we’d both be right.

I was unaware that people in power we always truthful and never engaged in the act of scapegoating. I was also unaware that I lacked a clue. Thanks for pointing out this fact to me. I will be searching for clues this weekend. Just call me Blue’s up in this B!tch!

Clueless,

Anon

Bob,

Then how did the FY2011 budget (effective Oct. 01, 2010) get approved by congress.

FY2012 budget is due from the President until q1 2011.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/index.html#budget

"So, an amendment adopted in 1868 was also a reaction to a law passed in 1882? How f...en brilliant were legislators back then?"

No Alan, it was partially directed at the racism that was already evident at that time, and it clearly says so in the article I cited. Thanks for proving the point of my post.

Yeah, Hate for the President, Fear spreading, 70+% of the population hate the profligate spending and lack of an economic recovery from this President, not because it's impossible, just that his ideology is screwed up and won't do the job, spreading the wealth appeals to all of you losers but not to those who have the wealth and create the businesses and jobs, as far as I am cincerend, I wouldn't emplot another person and in fact would downsize just tio show my thoughts on stealing my money. We started in the wrong place however, we should get rid of the di*kheads who run local government, elected by their union and environmentalist friends so they can themn payback with huge bennies and anti business regulation, we need to get them out first before property taxes destroy us! As for fear, well, the Marxist government wants to destroy the U.S. as we know it and institute a giant Federal Beaurocracy, much like the USSR, we all know where that went, it's amazing, almost all world nations have recognised this model fails everty time and have moved away, we, the great undereducated, mired in class warfare and envy are thundering over the cliff, the people fear the Government and it's ideological corruption of the American Dream

I graduated from High School 40 years ago. I regularly receive the alumni news letter, in which, they always ask for donatons to scholarship and general funds. I've never contributed. Now, knowing how much schools are getting the shaft on funding, and having to cut cut cut cut budgets, for the first time, I'm sending 'em a healthy contri.

Who's going to look out for other middle class Americans if not the middle class Americans themselves?

Feisty- does this count as an idea? I know it's not a ME First idea- which seems to be all the rage these days in many circles, but it's all I could muster this week.

That's a wonderful thought and deed, Feisty.You have my congratulations for your efforts. I also donate money generously to local food panrty's for the same reasons.

Where I part company with you is when the lefty liberals advocate that the federal govt. should take my money involuntarily and decide who they think it should be given to.

Feisty:

Really important. I sponsor a Food on Wheels program that helps feed about 35 families here in my small Vermont Town. Sometimes I get to drive a truck to the houses and the looks on these peoples face is so priceless, I just cannot explain how I feel when I leave.

I try to spend a few minutes with each family to learn about them. These people are not bums, hobo's, lazy or come from dysfunctional families. These are American People who are dow on their luck, not by their own choosing. They are bleeding USA red and many feel bad that they have to rely on an Old Sailor to bring them food.

This is sooo wrong. In a country that has so much why are so few being helped.

My daughter, a Navy Officer (RN) spends one day a week at a local shelter providing medical services to the needy. She says it is always one of her most enjoyable days of the week. She cannot understand why she would be needed to do this. She feels all people should have basic health care.

It does not take much time to help a fellow American nor doe it cost very much but I tell you all the returns are huge (Bernie Sanders word). Probably the greatest high you will every experience.

God Blss America and ALL its people.

Great post Feisty!

It is in times when we are all suffering, that we should do WHAT WE CAN to help others. These small gestures you've mentioned and performed can go a long way to giving the hopeless hope.

Kudos.

Here's an idea: invite all the homeless people in your town to come live at your house. While you're at it, invite all the illegal aliens too. It's a lot more substantive than the superficial things you mentioned that are basically done to make you feel good about yourself. (Kind of like voting for Obama). Feed them, clothe them, house them and help them find jobs. You know, the republican way of "teach a man to fish rather than give a man a fish".

Who's going to look out for other middle class Americans if not the middle class Americans themselves?

That's precisely the message I was trying to convey! Thanks Buzz!

I also sent a check to the Back to School drive here for inner city kids (only because I couldn't make it downtown to drop off the supplies they were in need of).

It doesn't have to be a lot but every LITTLE bit counts!

The sooner the 98% of the country figures out that the only way the middle class will survive is by fighting back the better!

What a good idea Fiesty and your generous gesture was a great start.

Office Depot is running a project whereby you can buy extra school supplies for donating to the needy.

Last night, Countdown asked for donations to www.freeclinics.us they are in New Orleans next week and are about $200k short, so anything you can give will be helpful.

These are just 2 options, if you look around your own communities, you will see need, there are many opportunities to help others and it doesn't have to be money or items, your time and your presence will be very well received.

Fiesty-my local food pantry gets donations from my family monthly. it is nothing new, rather, something we have done for years and years.

You see, no matter what shape the economy is in, there will always be those who cannot provide for themselves. Perhaps there is a substance abuse issue, perhaps it is disorganized thinking, perhaps some unexpected catastrophe they are unable to handle.

Whatever the reason, 'the poor we will always have with us', to paraphrase. Are there more during economies like this one? Of course-but don't forget, when recoveries come, that they are still out there, in need.

It is not up to us to judge if the recipient of charity is worthy of it-it is simply up to us to share from our bounty.

So Feisty what you are saying is that you were helping the less fortunate WITHOUT having to have the government take money FROM you and give it TO someone else?

Isnt what you just did this past weekend (which I think is awesome by the way.....) the same exact thing we conservatives have been saying that we as a country do better than any other country in the world and that we don't need the gov't doing it for us?

The $25 you spent on your own probably did more good then $500 in tax dollars taken from tax payers because there werent levels of beaurocrats in between your money and the people that need it.

CU you never fail to prove what an A$$ you are.....

I found many years ago that the best way to help kids with school supplies is to buy a few extras of what your child will need and give them to the teacher. The teacher will be able to put them in the hands of the needy without calling attention to the fact.

Larry ~ the problem with your argument is that private citizens can't be counted on to do everything that government could do better, especially when private citizens are being squeezed out of the middle class. Even when everyone means well, when you have to cut corners, charity often takes a bath. I know this first hand from having several non-profit clients who rely partly on donations to make ends meet. Without government support, some of them would be unable to survive. And leaving everything completely to private whim means that more worthy charities will often lose out to the flashy ones.

p.s. many charities are bureaucratic, with little money actually drifting down to where it is needed. What we need in social programs is MORE stability, not less.

Maggie ~ And why shouldn't the school be the one doing that? And why shouldn't we ALL bear that burden, rather than placing it either on individual classroom teachers, who don't get paid enough as it is, or the whim of other parents, who may or may not feel sufficiently compassionate toward their children's classmates.

Feisty - and you do know if it were a republican that got the flyer - they would have bought 4 bags of groceries - thrown the flyer away and say - Boy - deliver this to my house.

Feisty - and you do know if it were a republican that got the flyer - they would have bought 4 bags of groceries - thrown the flyer away and say - Boy - deliver this to my house.

Thanks for the laugh Paul!

I was stunned at the amount of people that just walked on by... I mean seriously you can't buy a couple of box's of Mac & Cheese for cryin out loud!

I live in a pretty upscale suburb and TRUST me the people around there CAN afford it!

Thanks again for the giggle!

I've done that duty before, standing at the entry of the grocery store asking for donations to the food pantry. It was very fullfilling and I enjoyed it immensely. Remarkable how many people simply keep their eyes focused forward though, pretending you're not even there.

I agree that there's a form of welfare that should be discontinued. It's larger than the entire social services budget put together, excluding Social Security and Medicare. Since Conservatives argue that every time government picks a winner it also picks a loser we should be able to agree on eliminating corporate welfare. After all, should the government really be meddling in the free market? http://www.corporations.org/welfare/

CU

It is just sad that just because you don't agree with her idealogy, that you have to trash both her and the people who are less fortunate, just to "one-up" her. Pathetic.

"Where I part company with you is when the lefty liberals advocate that the federal govt. should take my money involuntarily and decide who they think it should be given to."

Joe in ALbany- I DO have to agree with you here. Never once, after sending in my tax payment, did the government come to my door and say "Drive-By Observer- which war would you like us to spend this on??"

Relax Mich. She has no problem doing it to othere. And only you and her and other libs would believe that displaying common courtesies such as holding doors open for old people and giving to charity, are "ideologies". THAT'S pathetic.

Ted, Mid Michigan

'CU you never fail to prove what an A$$ you are....'

Ted- your post had the word 'hole' taken away somehow.

The thing is CU, that is how bad it is has gotten in America. People are all in it for themselves, and just doing the little things, no longer matter anymore.

The pathetic thing is with the 'ME FIRST' generation...

They NEED to be reminded to PRACTICE common courtesies!

Larry, Minot, N.D. it has been the case of "progressives" spewing these type of teachings since at least the 70s when I first went to college. Fresh out of colleges grads may very well start out as brainwashed liberals but once they get into the real world and experience life most will realize the BS they were exposed to and become productive citizens.

@Avg Joe-1820350: I don't know, man. I'd consider myself successful in a business sense and a productive citizen: would it worry you that I manage a cadre of subordinates at my day job and work free-lance as a graphic designer in my spare time? Might it annoy you to know I habitually write my Congressman and take an active interest in local politics?

I do live well; I do support myself entirely of my accord. However, I still feel the super-rich are greedy, that homosexuals deserve equal rights and the backlash on Park51 is bombastic nonsense. Do my beliefs prohibit me from qualifying as a productive citizen, or are you more inclined to write me off as an anomaly?

Joe in Albany-1902257

That's a wonderful thought and deed, Feisty.You have my congratulations for your efforts. I also donate money generously to local food panrty's for the same reasons.

Where I part company with you is when the lefty liberals advocate that the federal govt. should take my money involuntarily and decide who they think it should be given to.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You mean like those dreaded Farm Subsidies that Michelle Bachman is sucking up to NOT grow food that could potentially help the needy? Riiiiiiiighhhhhhhhht. I understand, mr. me firster. Perfectly.

Exodite Dragon..................nope not at all.

Okay Albany, one more time from the top, the dopes of nope GOBP will not touch my SS and medicare (other than to lower the age eligibility)

Myth: Social Security is going broke.

Reality: There is no Social Security crisis.By 2023, Social Security will have a $4.3 trillion surplus (yes, trillion with a 'T'). It can pay out all scheduled benefits for the next quarter-century with no changes whatsoever.¹ After 2037, it'll still be able to pay out 75% of scheduled benefits--and again, that's without any changes. The program started preparing for the Baby Boomers retirement decades ago.² Anyone who insists Social Security is broke probably wants to break it themselves.

Myth: We have to raise the retirement age because people are living longer.

Reality: This is a red-herring to trick you into agreeing to benefit cuts. Retirees are living about the same amount of time as they were in the 1930s. The reason average life expectancy is higher is mostly because many fewer people die as children than did 70 years ago.³ What's more, what gains there have been are distributed very unevenly--since 1972, life expectancy increased by 6.5 years for workers in the top half of the income brackets, but by less than 2 years for those in the bottom half.⁴ But those intent on cutting Social Security love this argument because raising the retirement age is the same as an across-the-board benefit cut.

Myth: Benefit cuts are the only way to fix Social Security.

Reality: Social Security doesn't need to be fixed. But if we want to strengthen it, here's a better way: Make the rich pay their fair share. If the very rich paid taxes on all of their income, Social Security would be sustainable for decades to come.⁵ Right now, high earners only pay Social Security taxes on the first $106,000 of their income.⁶ But conservatives insist benefit cuts are the only way because they want to protect the super-rich from paying their fair share.

Myth: The Social Security Trust Fund has been raided and is full of IOUs

Reality: Not even close to true.The Social Security Trust Fund isn't full of IOUs, it's full of U.S. Treasury Bonds. And those bonds are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States.⁷ The reason Social Security holds only treasury bonds is the same reason many Americans do: The federal government has never missed a single interest payment on its debts. President Bush wanted to put Social Security funds in the stock market--which would have been disastrous--but luckily, he failed. So the trillions of dollars in the Social Security Trust Fund, which are separate from the regular budget, are as safe as can be.

Myth: Social Security adds to the deficit

Reality: It's not just wrong -- it's impossible! By law, Social Security funds are separate from the budget, and it must pay its own way. That means that Social Security can't add one penny to the deficit.¹

Sources:

1."To Deficit Hawks: We the People Know Best on Social Security" New Deal 2.0, June 14, 2010
http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/06/14/to-defict-hawks-we-the-people-know-best-on-social-security-12290/

2. "The Straight Facts on Social Security" Economic Opportunity Institute, September 2009
http://www.eoionline.org/retirement_security/fact_sheets/StraightFactsSocialSecurity-Sep09.pdf

3. "Social Security and the Age of Retirement"Center for Economic and Policy Research, June 2010
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/social-security-and-the-age-of-retirement/

4. "More on raising the retirement age" Ezra Klein, Washington Post, July 8, 2010
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/more_on_raising_the_retirement.html

5. "Social Security is sustainable" Economic and Policy Institute, May 27, 2010
http://www.epi.org/analysis_and_opinion/entry/social_security_is_sustainable/

6. "Maximum wage contribution and the amount for a credit in 2010." Social Security Administration, April 23, 2010
http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/240

7. "Trust Fund FAQs" Social Security Administration, February 18, 2010
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fundFAQ.html

8. "To Deficit Hawks: We the People Know Best on Social Security" New Deal 2.0, June 14, 2010
http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/06/14/to-defict-hawks-we-the-people-know-best-on-social-security-12290/

Am I the only one who has noticed how often "conservatives" tell hypothetical stories about Company X in Community Y?

Wonder why that is?

I guess the reality of their policies don't make good examples, thus we always get these capitalist fairytales . . . kind of pathetic actually.

I've become convinced that Conservatism in its current form is something that doesn't work in the real world. After all, given 30 years of Conservatism being the dominant political form there isn't much success to point out. When questioned on why this or that didn't work out the answer increasingly because "it wasn't done right" or "it wasn't put fully into place." The financial system collapsed because it wasn't FULLY deregulated. Insurance costs continue to skyrocket because any regulation is too much. George W Bush wasn't REALLY a Conservative--against all evidence to the contrary.

If only we could all live in an Ayn Rand novel, life would be so perfect.

Nice cut and paste from your SS propaganda site jomoma:

"After 2037, it'll still be able to pay out 75% of scheduled benefits"

Tell that to today's 40 year old worker who will start to collect in 2037. "Give uncle Ron 100% of your SS paycheck deductions today and we feds will give you back 75% when you retire.

Good Deal!!! If you're a lefty liberal moron.

"Retirees are living about the same amount of time as they were in the 1930s. The reason average life expectancy is higher is mostly because many fewer people die as children than did 70 years ago."

So, what you're saying is that the actuarial data used when SS was first set up no longer applies to today and more people are collecting benefits than originally anticipated?? THAT's your lefty liberal propaganda site's argument for not changing SS??

Good Deal!!! If you're a lefty liberal moron.

I don't disagree with you that SS should be applied to all wages. Just do me the courtesy of admitting THAT is a change from the SS promise made by FDR, and a tax increase.

"The Social Security Trust Fund isn't full of IOUs, it's full of U.S. Treasury Bonds"

Treasury bonds are the U.S. govts IOU's. Your statement is moronic.

"That means that Social Security can't add one penny to the deficit"

In a strict accounting sense you are correct. However, in reality, because the SS "trust fund" is such an easy source of cash, the federal govt. uses it every day to cover the useless spending they can't fund with other revenue sources, which runs up the defitcit.

Bottom line: SS as it's currently structured will NOT be able to meet its promises to the American people unless you think you can buy food, etc, with the U.S. Treasury bonds in the "trust fund".

Atlas has shrugged, John.

Has he, Exodite? Or have those who already have most of the money simply decided they CAN have it all?

Contrary to what some would like us to believe there is no magic connection between Capitalism and Freedom. The Chinese are doing darned well with their Capitalism, but Freedom is in remarkably short supply. No, we've forgotten that America works as well as it does because of an unwritten social contract. The Capitalist is welcome to do pretty much as he pleases as long as he shares enough to keep the middle class healthy. In doing so it cranks up our economic engine and all benefit, including the Capitalist. By starving the lower 80% the Capitalist starves himself in the end. It just takes longer for him to notice that the engine is stalling, the car is coasting to a halt.

True, unregulated capitalism only leads to Malaysia or Dickensian England. America works because Americans for generations have valued fairness. Today? Not so much.

"I guess the reality of their policies don't make good examples, thus we always get these capitalist fairytales . . . kind of pathetic actually."

Sorry, Nash. I tried my best to "dumb it down" enough so FR lefty liberals could understand it. Apparently, in your case, I didn't succeed.

So with all this talk about SS being broke, or not being broke, etc., has anyone done a study to find out how many people are collecting it and don't really need it?

Anecdotal, but it helps illustrate my question: A guy I know has a father who had a long and fruitful career with a company that gives him a nice pension every month, so nice that he doesn't worry about making it to the next check. Now, this guy also draws SS, because he is entitled, even though he doesn't "need" it.

I wonder how many people can do without SS so that it will stay 100% solvent beyond the 2037 timeframe people are touting. I plan to invest now, subsidize my own retirement years, and take back what the government took from me, whether or not I need it. If they would let me keep even half of what they take so that I can invest, they wouldn't have to worry about me later.

Sorry, Nash. I tried my best to "dumb it down" enough so FR lefty liberals could understand it. Apparently, in your case, I didn't succeed. - Joe in Albany

I still appreciate the effort Joe . . . means alot . . . come up with some real world examples . . . that might be simpler! ;o)

Suggestions to mate fairness to viable business practices, then?

Glass Steagall kept our banking system safe for a lot of years, until it was junked. Food safety has taken a serious hit since inspection regimens were curtailed. Alan Greenspan once believed that there was neither need nor desirability for government to prosecute fraud, and during his tenure in government he worked hard to further that ideology. Fairness in the tax code qualifies. Tax breaks given to an individual industry or business in the name of "economic development" tilt the playing field in favor of those industries and businesses. Minimum wage increases have lagged behind inflation for the past several decades, helping with the erosion of the middle class.

That's just scratching the surface and it's enough to keep Congress busy for quite some time.

I concede.

It's been an interesting debate, Exodite. I think we aren't that far apart on this.

"I still appreciate the effort Joe . . . means alot . . . come up with some real world examples . . . that might be simpler! ;o)"

Nash, what I wrote IS the real world, just put into Dr. Seuss language in the hope that lefty liberals like you might be able to understand it in that language Again, sorry I failed to "dumb it down" enough for you.

Great post IR: Came across this quote recently that is I think applicable here:

The doors we open and close each day, decide the lives we live.

Flora Whittemore

Independent Redneck Va.

So very true and great well though post.

IR, You better watchout, someone will come on here & wash your mouth out with Soap!

Hope they pack a lunch Ky T because I can Garoontee thats going to be an all day project for 'em YOU BETCHA

Now you said a mouthful right there I.R. . . . folks with honor rarely have to tell you about it.

Great post, IR. This event this weekend is so abhorrent to me that I can't put my thoughts into words-thanks for doing it for me. I plan to ignore the whole thing so to keep my blood pressure down.

Well said, I.R. Perfect.

IR, I learned a long time ago that when someone has to make a big effort to impress you with how honest and honorable they are look out--you're dealing with a real crook for sure. You've mentioned the names of several who spend a great deal of every day telling us how important it is for them to be honest.

Most people just figure their lives speak for themselves.

Independent Redneck Va.

These people can’t restore anybodies Honor even their own because they never had possession of any in the first place.

True dat, IR

If they were so honorable, why are they told to stay away from Blacks and Africans. If it's not political, why is Dick Armey registering voters. If it's not political why are the most polarising politicians like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann speaking?

Their words drip with hypocrisy, interposition and nullification. That's why on August 28th, I will stand with Martin Luther King Jr.’s vision of a just, diverse and equal society. I do not stand with Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin and their attempt to destroy and distort King’s vision.

http:/http://glennbeckisnotmartinlutherkingjr.com//glennbeckisnotmartinlutherkingjr.com/

"Collapsed by the Community". Well, stupid me – this being the first and only blog I've ever posted on, until this week I had never even heard this expression. I'm still not exactly sure how the game works . Obviously the object is to silence your opponent – though that can't really be true, because even an idiot like me figured out pretty fast that you can "un-collapse" a comment just by clicking on the "+" sign next to it. And the "collapsed" notation probably actually results in even more people, not less, clicking on it to read the collapsed comment,"

That's why I view my "collapsed" comments as a badge of honor bestowed on me by the FR lefty liberals. Thank you all.

LMAO@U!!!!!

JoAnne in Pa - Thanks for your post. I was thinking much the same about this as I saw all the negativity and hateful comments out there. It may sound cliche be, really, you said it better than I could. You always have a way with words.

I've started to really like the characters in this community as well. There still are a lot of regulars out there, but It seems as if some of those names I had grown to recognize and enjoy their contributions have packed up and left.

JoAnne in Pa - Thanks for your post. I was thinking much the same about this as I saw all the negativity and hateful comments out there. It may sound cliche but, really, you said it better than I could. You always have a way with words.

I've started to really like the characters in this community as well. There still are a lot of regulars out there, but It seems as if some of those names I had grown to recognize and enjoy their contributions have packed up and left.

The rules are simple: Don't name call or make personal attacks, don't be disrespectful or inappropriate, don't use foul language, no harassment and/or intimidation, don't advertise for personal gain and don't make false abuse reports.

I enjoyed your post very much JoAnne.

This community will survive and be stronger because those of us that value it and respect it will continue to work to make sure it does.

Thank you for all you contribute to our "neighborhood". :o)

JoAnne in PA - When I read your post it made me think of some e-mail exchanges my extreme right wing sister (some would call her a Tea Partier), my left of center brother and I have. They are not pretty as my sister is one of those who just forwards without question any and all of the lies that land in her inbox. When my brother and I reply with facts, we are attacked as being mean and nasty and get the ". . . besides, just because I sent it doesn't mean I agree with it. Just hit delete if you don't agree." argument.

That being said, when our family gets together, we have way more fun than any family should ever have. We all still love each other and respect each other's choices.

So, in a way, the people on here who agree one day, give each other accolades and then disagree the next are more like a family than a community . . . at least to me. The others that do nothing but disagree to disagree (and are , therefore, disagreeable? but I digress) and take pot shots at even the most factual or innocuous posts are like the outsiders that observe my sister, brother and my e-mail exchanges. They just don't matter and do not understand what is going on or why no one pays any attention to them, other than to tell them to be quiet or that they are wrong and this is why.

Joanne, PA;

Touche'

Well put, funny how many feel the same way on the posts today except for a few that still want to blame the unfortunate instead of taking responsibility for makeing them "unfortunate"in the first place.

It just does not change much.

Good morning JoAnne,

Well put. Communities allow discourse, sometimes civil, sometimes not, but ultimately, common sense prevails when your community benefits from an action. Dennis' rules are pretty simple, pretty straighforward, and actually, pretty easy to follow. Unfortunately both side of the aisle (here and in Washington) can't abide by rules, whether easy to follow or not. I'm generally back to just skimming thru, really not interested in twenty postings congratulating one another for something relatively mundane, nor am I interested in the continual bickering about who's worse, Republican or Democrat. We've forgotten how to give constructive criticism, it seems to be all about scoring points off the opposing viewpoint, or blathering on about how someone else did it first.

Ooops, maybe my ego just got in the way, it's possible (however unlikely) that you weren't including me as a part of the community. In any event, have a wonderful weekend. Summer is coming to a close, although you wouldn't know it here in California, so enjoy it before it's gone.

JoAnne: Some people have the courage to tread where angels fear to go. Excellent post.

Living in LA - Are you kidding? Even though you don't come here often, I consider you one of the "pillars" of this community! Oh, and I'm a fall and winter girl, so summer could have ended on July 5th and I'd be a happy camper. Have a great weekend yourself!

JoAnne in PA-having read your posts, I thiunk you are in no danger of getting 'collapsed by the community', because you never engage in the hatefilled diatribes that get flagged for a reason.

Yesterday, Tyler was on in a couple of spots explaining the rules. They're not hard to follow, but, unfortunately, there are people on BOTH sides of the political aisle who seem not to have gotten out of fifth grade. They bully, name-call, and use some of the most vile language imaginable.

I say again, you are not one of them.

Yes, I admit, it is a problem if the responses are also collapsed. That is a price we ALL pay for the few who abuse their rights to post on this board.

Hopefully, now that the rules are more clear, there will be less need to collapse anything. It is surprising that there are adults who need to learn this lesson.

Well said, JoAnne. Thanks for saying it.

no joe - Thanks for the heads-up; when I get a chance I'll go back to yesterday's stuff and look for Tyler's points. And by the way, I appreciated your reply on Feisty's thread above about helping our neighbors - "It is not up to us to judge if the recipient of charity is worthy of it - it is simply up to us to share from our bounty". Spoken like a true member of the community I was referring to. Thanks.

Just another hot poker to stick in a libbies eye, huh?

Yay, let's all celebrate a brusing blow to the American people.

It's the GOP way!

Ted;

Just another post proving that the Right Wingers are PRAYING for America to fail...

They're positively giddy with the 'bad news numbers'...

There's NEVER an idea out of them... just doom & gloom...

If that's what makes them feel good about themselves... whatever!

This bit of economic news has to make a lot of righitis happy this morning. More failure and misery to be borne by the citizenry, but a chance to 'blame Obama', which of course. is 'more better' (cournty first, my butt!).

The sad part is- the ecomomy WILL pick up, if for no other reason than pent up demand, and the expanding population. It WILL happen. It just won't start until after 2012. No matter who is in office after Obama, they will be credited with the upswing by default. All the repubs have to do is sit on their hands and wait it out. Hell, by saying 'no' to everything, the wating game is just that much easier to play. So- if the ecomomy picks up again under a Republican-dominated gov't, the rich can keep getting even richer.

Nice gig, huh Me Firsters?

Fiesty-you could not possibly be more wrong.

Why, on earth, would anyone be giddy over the state this country is in as a result of Obama's policies?

I've said it before, and it bears repeating: Obama is like a man who discovers the plans for a personal flying machine-plans seemingly lost to the ages. He is told, over and over, that the machine cannot work, has been tried and failed, and that he should not go forward with his plans. He ignores the 'critics' and insists on building and flying the contraption.

He, of course, crashes immediately upon taking off.

When an economic policy has been proven to fail over and over again throughout history, what would make anyone think it would work for them? John Maynard Keynes was a fool, his theory is all wet, and fails every single time somebody dusts it off and uses it. It leads to contracting economies, higher debt, and high inflation-which is coming, Fiesty, in the not to distant future, unless something is done, quickly, to stop it.

It is another case of obama wills it so, so it must be so. Unfortunately, this only works in his mind, and the minds of his worshippers. Their dwindling numbers show you that the electorate has awoken from its stupor-not a minute too soon.

Smoke it if you got it.

"When an economic policy has been proven to fail over and over again throughout history, what would make anyone think it would work for them?" - no joe

On this we agree . . . except the practicioners of the failed economic policy are Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush . . . and we have the astronomical deficits to prove it .

Turns out the deificits do matter after all . . . yet another thing "faux conservatives" were wrong about.

But of course, you will never admit that trickle down economics is nothing more than a ponsy scheme designed to take tax breaks and incentives on the front end and fatten off shore bank accounts on the back end.

Nothing you can say will spin away the fact that after 8 years of Republican rule, the country was left literally in ruins.

No amount of spin is going to change that simple and inarguable fact.

I suppose that First Readers feel that the public and voters should simply ignore the fact that the Obama Administration's policies aren't creating sufficient economic growth for meaningful recovery to take place.

Many, if not most, of those posting here are able to ignore or disregard that reality.

Impressive. Still...

It is what it is...and even Joe Biden can't spin it away.

Save it NoJo...

You lost me at I couldn't possible be more wrong...

You of all people are one of the biggest offenders with your daily dose of 'bad news' giddiness...not to mention your unadulterated hatred of President Obama!

Save the sermon for someone who might possibly believe you...

If the Republicans had listened to the economists who said the stimulus was too small and needed to focus more on demand creation than on tax breaks, the policies would be working. My problem with the Obama administration was their trying to appease the Republicans way too much. The Obama administration should have demanded more in the stimulus and shamed the DINOs into cooperating.

When almost every economist (including extreme right wing economists like Bruce Bartlett) are say the stimulus is working but it should have been bigger, then all of you from the right wing who come on here and say different are showing that you do not know what you are talking about.

Once again, Keynesian economics did not fail and supply-side economics did not fail. The politicians who applied those policies did not know when to stop and/or took them too far. There is no one, single economic theory that is right for every situation. Int he late 70's and early 80's supply side policies were the correct policies but Reagan and GHW took them too far and applied them for too long.

The conditions that caused the current recession were almost identical to the conditions prior to the Great Depression so a Keynesian response was, ad still is called for. The question will become, will they be discontinued too soon (if Republicans take control), at the right time or too late?

The Republicans want to take us back to pure supply-side economics despite the fact that those policies will only make things worse. However, we as voters can stop this but we must also be vigilant that those who we support do not go too far and make that judgement in 2012.

Matthew,

Great post, with one exception . . . nothing has been found that can shame a DINO as of yet . . . like most other politicians, they tend to be shamless.

See Sanford, Mark and Nelson, Ben for additional reading.

Nash,

Oops, my bad. You are correct. LOL!!

Well said, Matthew, totally spot on.

That said the prognosis from economists in industry is still for the economy to continue recovering slowly before finally picking up some next year. Capital spending by industry is eased a bit but still speaks to an analysis that the need will be there. Freight loadings continue to pick up, meaning that more product is moving through the supply chain, another positive indicator. Is it everything it could be? Certainly not, but we've been through an economic disaster unseen in the adult lives of anyone currently in the workforce.

"Just another hot poker to stick in a libbies eye, huh?

Yay, let's all celebrate a brusing blow to the American people."

Reality just sucks when you are a lefty liberal and your philosophies prove themselves failed and useless.

Sucks to be you.

no joe all blow and Mixed Bag cheer at the bad news for the economy, and then when someone points out their giddiness they get all bent out of shape and deny their Getty about the bad news. We're not buying it no joe all blow and Mixed Bag.

I'm certain of this scenario playing out: should the Republicans wrest control of the House and Senate from the Democrats come November, and should the pace of the recovery pick up and spurn actual job growth, the Republicans will claim responsibility to fuel their Presidential bid in 2012.

Should the economy fail completely, I expect the blame game to be played by the Republicans that the stimulus was the direct cause of the recession - that none of it had to do with the policies of the Bush administration and nothing to do with Republican restrictions on the Democrats' response after Obama's election - and campaign on that in 2012.

Either way, we'll continue to address long-term problems with short-sighted solutions and platitudes.

People like you are well...... hilarious and sad at the same time.

Hilarious: Because, listen to what your saying, your friends Rushy and Glenny have turned your frustration in the American economy(caused by the Repubs) and turned it into all out hatred of the Dems. You really will say anything to disprove a liberal.

Sad: You want the country to falter so that way the Repubs can take power again. Unfortunately the Repubs have had the same ideas(psssttt that DON'T WORK) since Reagan, and will look to further implement them. Because basically right now: Good for America = Bad for Repubs, Bad for America = Good for Repubs.

Please note that the decrease in GDP was less than expected. I'm not saying it's great or anything. 1.6% is definitely a disappointing number. Just saying we might be a bit more pessimistic than we should be at this point.

"Recovery Fall", anyone?

Well...

Let's see...

4th quarter 2009 gdp growth-5.6%

1st quarter 2010 gdp growth-2.7%

2nd quarter 2010 gdp growth-1.6%

Since I'm obviously being too critical of the Obama Administration, let's hear a big round of applause for the trend those numbers reveal, First Readers.

And, while we're at it, let's give it up for the data that's already arriving for the 3rd quarter, like this week's data on July's existing and new home sales, and durable goods orders.

High fives, people...all around.

Are you getting "fired up, ready to go"...?

What Fiesty and the rest don't understand is that this data does NOT fill us 'with glee', or giddiness, or any of the other emotions they attribute to us.

It is frustration-that so many were taken in by a slick talker who sold us a bill of goods.

It is sadness, because so many are suffering who did not need to suffer.

It is anxiety-the same anxiety felt by the vast majority of Americans.

Pointing out the poor economic data is not 'cheering'-any more than reporting a train wreck is cheering the destruction.

The fact that this scenario-which was unavoidable, given Obama's policies-will lead to a change in the leadership of the House, and possibly the Senate, is only good news because it will prevent him from enacting any more destructive policies. Possibly, it will lead to rolling back some of his most destructive policies before they do more damage than is already done.

he was wrong, folks. Plenty of people told him he was wrong. He does not listen.

To Mixed Bag and No joe:

Your refusal to acknowledge that the economic policies that preceeded President Obama led us to where we are today prevents me from taking you seriously.

Your refusal to acknowledge that things are better now than when President Obama was sworn in also prevents me from taking you seriously.

Pointing out that the carnage left by the Bush Administration has not been corrected yet basically proves absolutely nothing.

And yes, I am FIRED UP and READY TO GO . . . and no matter how many times your collective heads spin around on your shoulders and you shriek lies at the top of your lungs . . . I will REMAIN committed to helping OUR PRESIDENT move this country FORWARD . . . with or without your help.

Your uncontained GLEE at this nation's economic disasters is indeed something to behold . . . enjoy it while you can . . . at least you are able to find some joy in your lives . . . I am thankful for that.

@no joe, no bo, nj: And George was different how, exactly? How have any of these 'leaders' of ours been different over the past few decades, save in lip-service party affiliation?

Or are you among the number willing to turn a blind eye and give a pass to the poor decisions of whichever politician shares the same label you apply to yourself?

Just a quick question, no jo: do you know what 'freight loadings' is or means? Do you know what it's relationship is to the economy?

Hint: it had a whole lot to do with the Great Depression and this recession but nothing to do with the recession of the late 70s and early 80s.

No peeking at John B's posting, now.

Settle down, Nashville_fan-

I acknowledge that you've elevated the level of your debate.

At least you're no longer demanding that I give you forty acres and a mule, reparations, etc, and that I accept personal responsibility for the racism and culturalism genetically imbedded in all humans...even you, Nashville!

Progress is progress.

I'm thankful of that.

Let the debate continue.

Mixed Bag:

And I appreciate you refraining from lecturing me on the perils of "black group think" and implying that refusing to support a party that routinely chooses to scapegoat minorities as the cause of most problems is somehow difficult to understand.

Progress has certainly been made.

no joe, no bo, nj
What Fiesty and the rest don't understand is that this data does NOT fill us 'with glee', or giddiness, or any of the other emotions they attribute to us.

Thanks for your reponse to NoJo Nash!

It leads me to believe she never reads what she writes... day in and day out we are subjected to her sarcastic - giddy - fact-less claims and now she wants to plead the 5th? Give me a break!

You don't earn the title of Goddess of Doom & Gloom with her 'cheery' disposition...

From the sounds of her I'd say she got a refill on her prescription! lol

Your continued moral support for the economic failure of the nation until the fall takeover has definitely been noticed by our economic overlords, MB.

Undoubtedly you will be be rewarded with some small token of their appreciation in the future.

Michael Thompson, Charlotte, NC-

If you can't rebut, Michael...then, weigh your options.

I know how smart you are, Michael...if I've posted something factually inaccurate, feel free to take me to task based on that.

To simply lash out blindly...you're better than that.

Aren't you?

Just curious...I'm not getting your comment about our "economic warlords" taking notice of me, and bestowing an appropriate "reward"...

What on earth are you talking about?.

Is this "black helicopter" stuff, Michael?

I don't really get into all that.

There's really nothing all that mysterious about this. I am not a big believer in conspiracy theories. I am merely sarcastic. And the rationale for my sarcasm should be relatively apparent. It's simply dull to have the same conversations in August, 2010 that one had in January, 2010. And frankly, the substance, (and for the most part even the specifics), haven't changed. If you really want my substantive responses to all of this hogwash, then go back and look them up. It is tiresome to type them over and over again.

It is also apparent at this point that no matter what I happen to type - no matter how substantive or how flimsy - it will be met by the same type of response, nearly verbatim, from NJ, JS, you, Joe in Albany, or any other right wing poster on the site. So why spend the effort talking about historical parallels in the current situation from 1980-82 and what what Reagan did was appropriate, but why the same tax cutting approach won't work now or how this current situation has far more in common with the long recession of the late 1800's than the Great Depression of the 30's when those 'discussing' the issue either don't care what I have to say (you), don't have the base knowledge to even understand the point I am making (Joe), or are so dogmatically attached to an economic philosophy that you refuse to even entertain the notion that it has weaknesses (NJ)?

MB, the current recovery is in every way typical of other recessions INCLUDING the tendency for there to be a decline in improvement at this point in the cycle. In fact there's data to indicate that the recovery is actually proceeding along a better trajectory than the last two http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/positve-trends-say-recovery-stronger-than-previous-recessions-tu/19604973/ . The biggest difference is that the fall off was steeper and deeper due to the enormous bubble that burst. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/joblossespostwar.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/post-wwii-recession-job-recoveries-months/&usg=__gDq9bHcb0XhGzlAZsNj0WtDOUgc=&h=739&w=1138&sz=199&hl=en&start=47&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=f13LLJcCXUl_OM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drecovery%2Bfrom%2Brecent%2Brecessions%26start%3D40%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1

Michael Thompson, Charlotte,NC-

Actually, Michael...I cannot ever recall an exchange of views with you that began with one of your comments. I always seem to be responding to your response to something I've posted.

That said, if you actually read, and thought about my original post on this thread, you'll realize that today's discussion (on my part, at least) about progressively declining gdp is unlikely to have been a topic last January for obvious statistical reasons.

If you somehow believe that statistics I posted regarding economic growth indicate to you that the Administration's economic team is on the right track, Michael...that's an argument I'd be interested in hearing.

The rest is just the usual, boiler-plate, cheerleading that the ideologues here at First Read are always engaging in.

Nicely said, Michael. My feelings exactly. I'd vote but for some reason, it won't let me.

John B, Des Moines, IA-

So, John...

I'm assuming you're pleased with the pace of economic growth, and believe that everything is proceeding according to plan, and that what we're experiencing is in line with past economic recoveries.

Looks like we're going to have to disagree about that.

Eventually, there will be some degree of economic recovery...there always is. I don't sense that it's just around the corner, based on recent data regarding key economic indices.

Just curious, John...

Should Republicans experience a major rebound in the midterms...how do you think businesses and the financial markets will react?

Any thoughts...?

NO ONE is pleased with the pace of the economy. In fact the past several recoveries have been very slow in terms of job growth and that's a serious problem. Part of it is our current service-based economy. Part of it is the pressure from Wall Street to show strong growth in profitability such that actually building a company for the long term takes a back seat. Some of it probably is due to globalization.

Should Republicans experience a major rebound in the midterms business and financial markets will react exactly as they will if Democrats hold Congress. They'll hire as demand starts to come back and as that momentum builds so will the recovery.

The reason is that government policy builds or weakens the economy a bit at a time over the long term. Wall Street insists that the focus be current results and next quarter dividends. It took 30 years to break the economy this badly. It won't be fixed overnight. If we implement the wrong policies it'll still rebound in the short run. We'll just blow an even bigger bubble and fail even more spectacularly next time.

Not surprisingly, we disagree again.

I suspect that businesses will start to put some of the record amounts of cash they've been sitting on to work.

Just a hunch, John, but that's my guess.

Anyway, we'll see, won't we?

Michael:

I saw that and you make a point. To take it further the story about the stabbing of the Muslim Cab Driver in NY. Some yahoo on FOX claimed "well, he was drunk". Ok, so now it is ok to attack and harm a minority as long as you have a few beers first.

What is this country coming to?????

Michael -

Thanks for posting this - as someone with two very loved cats herself, I couldn't even read that story yesterday because I was afraid of what I might see, so I'm glad that for the cat, at least, it had a happy ending. As to what this means in the larger universe of the Internet? Well, see my post above and Joe in Albany's proud reply to it. I think we get out of the Internet exactly what we put into it.

Last year I was suffering through a bout of noisy neighbors, getting disturbed by door slamming and loud conversations and drumming (! ) around me and, I confess, thoughts of retribution crossed my mind, including stringing up their cat and pulling up their tomato plants!

Of course, I didn't do it. But it made me aware of how dangerous human beings can be, how strong the desire to retaliate, even out of proportion to the "crime." This woman may not have been retaliating against her neighbor or the cat, but there definitely was anger at something in her, and a feeling of powerlessness, to have tried to kill the cat. I'm not excusing her, I'm just saying we're all capable of evil thoughts, if not deeds, when our negotiating skills fail us.

Terrific post, Michael.

That's the best post I've seen in a while, Michael. I do think there's a point to expressing that some things are just wrong. Make excuses, justify it any way you wish, it just doesn't change that its wrong. I do think that's an important piece of what's missing from our politics today. Shameful acts are excused because "politics is rough" or "they do it too" or "this is a really important issue."

Lying is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Deceit is wrong. That's all there is.

To begin: God, I love 4chan. The Internet Hate Machine is the best thing that ever happened to human civilization.

More to your point, Michael, I think that the kind of reaction you see online and the world over to the cat bin lady is a correction of our collective sense of morality; in my opinion you hit the nail on the head with that percolation. This is not the first time, of course, that someone who's committed an act of evil has suffered the wrath of the global online community. Consider the pedophiles in Canada and Arizona who were successfully outed and apprehended because of digital vigilantes.

I think it's the overwhelming furor of the reaction that hints at a deeper issue: we're compensating for our impotency at combating the major evils of the world on our own terms. Instant communication, it's been long noted, brings instant knowledge of events both wondrous and loathsome. I suspect the lot of us feel powerless when we're confronted by stories such as those of the Iranian woman sentenced to death by stoning, or of the honor-killings of young brides and boys in rural India who violate the caste system. We're appalled by these things because we are not physically able to assert our moral conviction in the situation by virtue of their distance; of equal frustrating influence is our inability to lash out at the vagaries of our political and social elite, their affluence protecting them from the public's rancor.

I do believe that we react as powerfully as we do against the small-fries with the subconscious hope that not only will the perpetrator never be inclined to repeat their offense, but that it will serve as a warning to others, as well. I think the Internet makes a very effective hammer when swung in the appropriate direction: cat bin lady will be living with a large degree of ignominious shame for the remainder of her life.

Pat, Boston;

We have become a society where it is easier to blame the victim than to correct the injustice. Just look at how some of the politicians have treated the unemployed, those that cannot afford Healt Care, etc. and you see what I mean.

Not only are they victims of a broken system, which is not of their making, they are labeled as the problem instead of acknowledging the injustice, take ownership for it and then figure a way to correct it.

Just not going to happen anytime soon i am afraid.

Great post Pat.

Pat,

Thanks for speaking truth to ignorance . . . you rock! :o)

So true Pat and Navy, thought this sums it up:

"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated"

George Bernard Shaw

US Navy & Nashville_Fan: Thanks. It's pretty sad that we have so much media out there, yet most of them can justify just about anything. It doesn't matter. They will find a way to convince their viewers that they are fair and balanced, which of course they are not. They are just dumb. Add to that, the money pouring into these campaigns, and it looks to be a lost cause for the Democrats. I guess people have decided that we haven't quite reached the bottom, so they're going to put Boehner in. I wonder how much damage they will accept from the GOP before they figure out that this party is full of nothing? Now they're going to bring on investigations when they get into power. I guess that should help out the unemployed. Boy oh boy. I guess people ultimately get what they deserve since they keep doing the same thing over and over and over. It's a shame they are taking the whole country down with them, including the future for our children. It won't be the first time. They do it all the time by electing people who only care about the wealthy.

ThinkProgress: In the wake of the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling earlier this year, corporations and special interest groups now enjoy the ability to spend unlimited amounts of money on elections. Now, with less than 10 weeks until November, it’s clear just how far conservative groups are willing to go to try to influence the midterm elections. According to a new report from ThinkProgress, conservative organizations have committed (or already spent) $400 million to advance their conservative agenda at the ballot box this year. For comparison’s sake, this outside money alone is more than the Democratic campaign committees spent combined when they took back both houses of Congress in the last midterm election. Indeed, the Wall Street Journal notes that special interest groups have already spent three times as much in 2010 than they had in 2006.

Another terrific post, Pat. Pointing out the opposing view is not easy especially in the workplace but planting seeds of thought is worth the temporary anger.

Pat, that's impressive and inspirational. It's a reminder that evil only triumphs when we stop fighting against it.

Here is a great column by Krauthammer that explains today's liberal. You should pay attention to this Pat, since you think that conservatism is a mental illness. Maybe this coulumn can tell you something about yourself. By the way. Lets see a show of hands: how many people knew that Aug 28th was a sacred day until a couple weeks ago when the usual lib race baiters told you that it was supposed to be , and that you are supposed to be mad?
Liberalism under siege is an ugly sight indeed. Just yesterday it was all hope and change and returning power to the people. But the people have proved so disappointing. Their recalcitrance has, in only 19 months, turned the predicted 40-year liberal ascendancy (James Carville) into a full retreat. Ah, the people, the little people, the small-town people, the "bitter" people, as Barack Obama in an unguarded moment once memorably called them, clinging "to guns or religion or" -- this part is less remembered -- "antipathy toward people who aren't like them."

That's a polite way of saying: clinging to bigotry. And promiscuous charges of bigotry are precisely how our current rulers and their vast media auxiliary react to an obstreperous citizenry that insists on incorrect thinking.

-- Resistance to the vast expansion of government power, intrusiveness and debt, as represented by the Tea Party movement? Why, racist resentment toward a black president.

-- Disgust and alarm with the federal government's unwillingness to curb illegal immigration, as crystallized in the Arizona law? Nativism.

-- Opposition to the most radical redefinition of marriage in human history, as expressed in Proposition 8 in California? Homophobia.

-- Opposition to a 15-story Islamic center and mosque near Ground Zero? Islamophobia.

Now we know why the country has become "ungovernable," last year's excuse for the Democrats' failure of governance: Who can possibly govern a nation of racist, nativist, homophobic Islamophobes?

Note what connects these issues. In every one, liberals have lost the argument in the court of public opinion. Majorities -- often lopsided majorities -- oppose President Obama's social-democratic agenda (e.g., the stimulus, Obamacare), support the Arizona law, oppose gay marriage and reject a mosque near Ground Zero.

What's a liberal to do? Pull out the bigotry charge, the trump that preempts debate and gives no credit to the seriousness and substance of the contrary argument. The most venerable of these trumps is, of course, the race card. When the Tea Party arose, a spontaneous, leaderless and perfectly natural (and traditionally American) reaction to the vast expansion of government intrinsic to the president's proudly proclaimed transformational agenda, the liberal commentariat cast it as a mob of angry white yahoos disguising their antipathy to a black president by cleverly speaking in economic terms.

Then came Arizona and S.B. 1070. It seems impossible for the left to believe that people of good will could hold that: (a) illegal immigration should be illegal, (b) the federal government should not hold border enforcement hostage to comprehensive reform, i.e., amnesty, (c) every country has the right to determine the composition of its immigrant population.

As for Proposition 8, is it so hard to see why people might believe that a single judge overturning the will of 7 million voters is an affront to democracy? And that seeing merit in retaining the structure of the most ancient and fundamental of all social institutions is something other than an alleged hatred of gays -- particularly since the opposite-gender requirement has characterized virtually every society in all the millennia until just a few years ago?

And now the mosque near Ground Zero. The intelligentsia is near unanimous that the only possible grounds for opposition is bigotry toward Muslims. This smug attribution of bigotry to two-thirds of the population hinges on the insistence on a complete lack of connection between Islam and radical Islam, a proposition that dovetails perfectly with the Obama administration's pretense that we are at war with nothing more than "violent extremists" of inscrutable motive and indiscernible belief. Those who reject this as both ridiculous and politically correct (an admitted redundancy) are declared Islamophobes, the ad hominem du jour.

It is a measure of the corruption of liberal thought and the collapse of its self-confidence that, finding itself so widely repudiated, it resorts reflexively to the cheapest race-baiting (in a colorful variety of forms). Indeed, how can one reason with a nation of pitchfork-wielding mobs brimming with "antipathy toward people who aren't like them" -- blacks, Hispanics, gays and Muslims -- a nation that is, as Michelle Obama once put it succinctly, "just downright mean"?

The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them.

letters@charleskrauthammer.com

CU,

Thank you so much for sharing Mr. Krauthammer's screed with us.

I'll try to be brief:

1. The charges of racism were based on racism:

"The Tea Party activist Mark Williams has denigrated Muslims for worshipping a "monkey god" and dubbed President Obama an "Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug and a racist in chief." So when the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) passed a resolution condemning "racist elements" within the Tea Party movement, his bilious response on July 15 wasn't terribly shocking. In a blog post he later described as "satire," Williams began, "Dear Mr. Lincoln, We Coloreds have taken a vote and decided that we don't cotton to that whole emancipation thing. Freedom means having to work for real, think for ourselves, and take consequences along with the rewards. That is just far too much to ask of us Colored People and we demand that it stop!"

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,2005371,00.html#ixzz0xpcoGnWO

(Hmmm, seem to have a llittle islamophobia peppered in too, eh?)

2. The charges of homophobia were based on homophobia:

"Ken Mehlman, President Bush's campaign manager in 2004 and a former chairman of the Republican National Committee, has told family and associates that he is gay. . . .

Mehlman's leadership positions in the GOP came at a time when the party was stepping up its anti-gay activities -- such as the distribution in West Virginia in 2006 of literature linking homosexuality to atheism . . ."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/08/bush-campaign-chief-and-former-rnc-chair-ken-mehlman-im-gay/62065/

3. The charges of nativism are based on nativism:

" . . .Rep. Louie Gohmert, Republican of Texas, continues to insist that the 14th Amendment, which grants citizenship to those born in the United States, should be repealed because jihadists are sneaking across our borders and having children, who they then take back abroad to be trained as terrorists but who one day will re-enter the country as citizens bent on our violent destruction. The FBI says there is no evidence to support this claim, but on CNN last week, the former judge compared himself to Winston Churchill warning his countrymen against Adolf Hitler's rise."

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/08/a_rising_tide_of_nativism_wash.html

4. The charges of islamophobia are based on islamophobia:

Newt Gingrich compares "Ground Zero Mosque" organisers to Nazis

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2010/8/16/newt-gingrich-compares-ground-zero-mosque-organisers-to-nazi.html

5. Resistance to vast expansion of government power? Hmmm. Interesting.

The GOP's "small government" tea party fraud

"This is what Republicans always do. When in power, they massively expand the power of the state in every realm. Deficit spending and the national debt skyrocket. The National Security State is bloated beyond description through wars and occupations, while no limits are tolerated on the Surveillance State. Then, when out of power, they suddenly pretend to re-discover their "small government principles." The very same Republicans who spent the 1990s vehemently opposing."

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/02/21/libertarianism

As I have said before, reality does not cease to exist because you refuse to acknowledge it.

Well said and so true.

Great post, worth repeating! I concluded last year that if the Tea Partiers were really upset with the deficit and government spending, why weren't they holding mass protest rallies from 2001-2008; deficits and big government spending is okay by them as long as it is republicans doing it.

Well said, Nash! As Franklin D. Roosevelt said in his first inaugural address in 1933, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

When you get right down to it, that's what many in the media (Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity et al) are peddling. Fear of the "other", Fear of loss ("You'll take what's mine"). Fear sells...fear gets huge ratings.

Any American worthy of the name will fight such ideas with every fiber of their being and will work hard for issues of social and economic justice. You don't get anywhere by throwing senior citizens under the bus by doing away with their social security and medicare--or by privatizing it. The stock market is not a place for money that's needed on an immediate basis--there is too much systemic risk.

Unemployment benefits are immediately stimulative-people receiving them MUST spend for basic living necessities which in turn benefits every retail store owner whether Walmart or Mom 'N Pop. And why demonize the unemployed as Sharon Angle did by saying we've put a lot of "entitlement" into our programs? What does that contribute to the debate except fear and hate?

Everyone who cares about the direction of this country has a clear choice in this November election. Forward Progress...or Backsliding...

Nash-it isn't despair, it is anger. In the words of Billy Joel: "the anger of having been a fool,"

People were lied to by Obama, who painted himself as a centrist when he is so far to the left that he cannot see the middle. People were told, by Obama, that he was a pragmatist, when he is, in fact, an ivory tower, perfect world ideologue, who never admits that his plans are failing.

Obama missed the part of the lesson that, in a republic, you can only govern with the CONSENT of the governed. Instead, he sees people as hopelessly inept, in need of the tutelage of the elite. He has a cabinet full of people who have never lived in the real world-only the halls of government or academia.

The law of unintended consequences? He has never even heard of it. It does not exist in the rarified atmosphere of the world he inhabits.

He is about to get a real life lesson on the same. The democratic party may recover from Obama, but it will take generations.

Oh noes!

Not 'generations!'

Whatever will we do? Woe is us.

no joe,

Have you ever noticed how most of the stuff you post has no basis in reality?

I have.

Michael,

You just made my day . . . thanks! lol

"The democratic party may recover from Obama, but it will take generations."

How can two people be so far apart in their perceptions of a leader, as you and I are? I think President Obama represents the best of America, not to mention our Party. I admire him tremendously and I am still amazed we found him. I can't understand what Republicans expected Obama to do in terms of improving the economy. Wave a magic wand? I mean, get real, these problems have been developing for years, haven't you felt that? I have.

Amy B - I'll second that. For all that the other side is always accusing us of "worshiping your Messiah", it often seems to me like they're the ones who are really expecting him to perform the miracles.

Terrific post. I think you expressed the root cause of our problems.

No Jo,

Once again your arugemnent is flawed, you said,

He is about to get a real life lesson on the same. The democratic party may recover from Obama, but it will take generations.

the republican party may recover from Bush, but that is going to take a generation for every body else to recover. if the same can be said about Obama then the same should be said about Bush. you just can't forget the bush years considering all that happened no matter how LOUD you scream. No one is listioing to you on that!!! your arguement is one sided, but as smart as you are, i can't believe you believe in a one sided arguement. come on no jo, lets be fair.

ucg - Thanks. I've been enjoying your recent posts as well.

NASH, UCG, Jody:

Well said my friends. Their is an old saying "No good deed goes unpunished". Seems to be the type of society we are heading towards unless we the people stop it. This will take courage and a strong heart. But that is (or at least was) one of the things that made America great. It is not too late (yet).

Well spake, Jody.

How about the 'The Dove World Outreach Center' in Gainsville, FL plans to burn Quran's on 9.11

Me thinks they should change their name to 'The KKK My World Only Outreach Center' as it's much more appropriate! There's some understanding & tolerance for ya?

http://cbs4.com/local/burning.quran.outreach.2.1867754.html

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/08/fla--church-vows-to-burn-korans-on-911-despite-fire-dept-objection/1

This may get flagged but I don't care . . .

Whenever I hear ". . . book burning . . ." pictures of the Nazi book burnings pop into my head.

I saw the 'pastor' of this 'church' on Hardball last night and the man was disgusting. Chris actually did a good job calling him out and the guy literally fell silent. Chris asked him what he would have to say if a group in Saudi Arabia started burning Bibles and the guy just got this dazed look on his face and couldn't say a word . . . and Chris actually gave him a chance to speak.

I did not see Chris Matthews, but I have read about this 'Dove Outreach Center'.

In my mind, they are to be lumped in with that nut who runs around protesting at fallen heroes' funerals, or high schools, for crying out loud.

Good on Matthews if he flummoxed this idiot.

I saw him too Matthew... the poor 'soul' is so 'lost' that he actually believes this is going to have a positive impact!

Oh... it's going to have an impact... but I would hardly call it positive!

Pastors like him & priest pedophiles are the reason I'm a recovering Catholic!

The problem with what the Dove Center is going to do, is that it puts ALL of us in danger as those images are sent around the world. It will escalate the radicals. I wonder how that "Pastor" can justify his actions given what Christ taught? Chris Matthews did a yeoman's job of calling this "Pastor" to account, but nothing is going to dissuade him from book burning.

Mathew, Houston:

This is what happens when you have MSM and a political party that fosters hate and fear. People get fired up for all the wrong reasons and make bad choices. Some of them hurt people and even results in death of innocent bystanders.

It is a very sad state of affairs where people have to be afraid of being mugged, shot, stabbed chastised, labeled into groups - so that they may have rights stripped away, just because they are different somehow and do not fit the pattern of one particular group that wants all the power and money,etc.

It does smack of other countries that we learned about in world history class. Too bad, we are better than that.

I didn't know about this book burning until I read these posts, and I'm appalled. As someone who spent his time in college studying the nuances of the Abrahamic faiths, it's extremely repugnant to me that anyone who claims to be enallied to Christ's teachings would condone the torching of of any text as an act of retaliation.

This line of schoolyard, "he said, she said" petulance only breeds cycles of hatred, fear and loathing. If the ironically-named Dove Outreach Center wants to send a true Christian message, they ought to issue a statement of forgiveness and calls for reconciliation come the fated day in September.

Oh, so true. Cheers to everyone's comment.

I read a small article in the paper about that religious group protesting a funeral of a fallen Iowa soldier. Something we've heard less about is that Vietnam Veterans motorcycle groups all around the country attend any service this religious group targets--they mass in front of the protestors on their bikes to block the family and friends from viewing the hateful signs, etc.

Thanks Pat for putting this out here!

I couldn't agree with you more! ;0)

Always "Grimey" anytime anywhere. Thanks for being here amongst us it always does me good to see what you have to say.

Frank,

You have a great weekend and thank you for a week of very thoughful posts. I always look to see what you have to say.

Stay safe and be well.

Same to you, Frank. Here's a margarita toast to a good guy! That does sound good, doesn't it.

Now Grimey... where's your sense of adventure? ;0)

Frank, have a great weekend and keep an eye on the weather charts....its that time of year again!

IR, USNDV, Jody - Thanks for the well wishes.

Feisty...you have no idea!! ;-)

GM...yeah, we've got Danielle heading out to sea and hopefully taking Earl with her. I'm guessing that in the next 2-3 days we're going to have Fiona forming and that might be the one to watch. Could be an ogre of a storm! (Oh, I'm here all week...try the veal)

Actually, owlsview: I think you make good points. All of us have been guilty of contributing to the deterioration of this site. It is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? If you insult me, I will be tempted to insult you back. What gets lost is the reasonable discussion that we should all be having about the problems of this country, and the possible solutions. We have become a microcosm for what is going on in Washington. If we are no longer willing to problem solve, play devil's advocate in a responsible way, we cannot expect the people we send to Washington to do it either. You give us all much to think about.

I propose that next week we start talking about solutions other than who to vote for, but right now my main motivation for wanting to be involved is about ten minutes away. My 2 year old grandaughter.

Great post owlsview. . . and thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

Edited to add:

This site would be awful boring if we didn't mix it up a little . . .

I just prefer humor to hatefulness . . . but to each his or her own I suppose.

It also helps if you actually have a point to make other than "Obama sux", but once again, that's just my personal preference! :o)

Owlsview, thank you. Enjoyed your thoughts, you made valid points. Yes, we're all guilty sometimes. I can't speak for anyone else but I do try hard to be respectful. A little humor or back and forth is good.

Owlsview:

Thank you for the breath of fresh air. I agree with you 100%. When people say hateful things the normal response is to hit back. I try to avoid those people that pratice that type of discourse since it usually goes nowhere. It almost always ends up in name calling etc. Because I see it happen so often on this board I often wonder if it is deliberate to try and pull us in? I avoid them like the plague and move on to somebody who likes to exchange ideas in a civil manner. Great post and hope to see you more often.

So why the need to preface it?

I invite all of you to visit my profile site and read the exchange this gentleman and I had maybe he doesn't realize they are available for all to see. Got to go. If I am guilty it wasn't intended.

Just read the exchange. Nice bit of baiting in there Frank.

Asking a question "Why be a fool or a loser?" is hardly the same as saying "You are a ..."

Absolutely. They'll see that I never once tried to paint you as stupid or did I degrade you in any kind of way. They will also see in two of your post how to tried to portray someone as stupid or a loser for their beliefs.

Yeah, got to go.

Go to the archives there cookie and see.

Thanks for putting this up.

To steal one from Keith last night.... "speaking of 'dick' armys...."

Wow, I knew it was a lot of money but seeing the list and the amounts really hits home. Thanks for posting this.

You left out the SEIU, AFSME, UAW, NEA, and other unions, who are planning, and, in some cases, have, spent millions trying to have an impact on the outcome of the elections.

I'm sure it was just an oversight.

The number of wage and salary workers belonging to unions declined by 771,000 to 15.3 million in 2009, (and thats counting government workers in unions) largely reflecting the overall drop in employment due to the recession. In 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available, there were 17.7 million union workers.

Add it up NJNBNJ. Almost a half billion dollars, just from the groups named. Do you honestly think unions are putting up that kind of money with the membership they have today?

Is there a point to this post, or are you simply flame-baiting?