A Third World Country—redux::

I really don’t want to believe that America is becoming a third world country. Two days ago I read that a judge has decided to stop all embryonic stem cell research because the embryonic stem cell is live material. In all honesty I don’t know this judge, but I bet his religious beliefs are infringing on his judgment. Why is this a problem? Because other countries continue to move further ahead in this field of research and America is caught in an 18^th century conservative quagmire of outdated beliefs. OK, perhaps the Appellate Court will reverse this judge’s decision, and research to save people with spinal injuries and Parkinson’s can proceed. But with each passing year, we slip further and further behind other countries.

Home foreclosures, unemployment, bankruptcy are all signs of an economy that is in trouble. Then I read that the American dollar is under attack because the American economy is unstable and the Chinese yen should be the new international currency. Hate that; and I hate seeing the American dollar devalued.

Sometimes there are big clues in small observations. I see children going back to school…with toilet paper sticking out of their back-packs because schools are so underfunded that they are saving on TP. The local news talks about the increased price of salt thus city and county highway crews will have to cut back on salting and sanding the roads this winter. Little things: Yes, but symptoms of a bigger issue. These are the things Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels didn’t think we would notice.

Taking care of our roads and bridges, clean energy, our grid structure, and education, has been woefully inadequate. It’s no accident. We did it to ourselves. Republicans were OK with spending money on two wars but not one penny for domestic improvements. They are OK with tax breaks for the rich but not one penny to improve health care for 30 million people. They are OK with increasing the age for Social Security benefits but not one penny for stimulus money to improve the economy. Why would anyone but wealthy bankers, rich oil men, and Tea Partiers vote Republican? That is a real mystery.

So let me see if I have this straight…

Ken Mehlman is a self professed gay man who’s mission in life was to vilify gays & lesbians to further promote the Christian Family Values agenda. And win elections for homophobic right wing politicians who also malign the gay community…

But know that he’s out of the closet and more than likely looking to marry his partner everything is ‘hunky dory’?

Newsflash! You don’t wake up one morning and decide you’re gay – this clown lived on the down low for years rallying against the rights of other human beings who just so happen to be gay!

This dude earns the ‘heaping helping of hypocrisy award’ Hands Down!

You can’t make this stuff up! No matter how HARD you try!

Good Morning IR: Enjoyed you piece. As an older guy, I have experienced the same thoughts.

And Hello to you Feisty: Glad to see you up and around...and Feisty as ever. Both of you, have a fine day.

Remeber to STS - we're going to need it more than ever today! ;0)

You know, Fiesty, you and the First Read authors have something in common-

you decry, as I do, allowing 'social values' to become a bulwark of a political party. Then, when that same party eschews those issues in favor of economic differences with the other party, you decry that, too.

Why have two parties if one party insists that they be exactly the same?

I, for one, see a return to fiscal conservatism and a very good thing for the republicans. They lost support when they spent like democrats.

I suspect that the problem is that this type of political philosophy has great backing from the electorate, and THAT is what is twisting the left.

So be it. Campaigning on lower taxes, reducing spending in order to tame the deficit, and repairing an ailing economy is going to be a big winner in November.

No Joe...I agree with you that a return to fiscal conservatism would be a very good thing for the GOP. We've got to stick to it though. Last time we were calling the shots, we spent like crazy and completely abandoned the principles of fiscal conservatism. And we rightly lost control. This is definitely an election cycle where the GOP needs the focus to stay on fiscal matters as opposed to social matters. The last line of your post is absolutely spot on!

Good morning,

I keep seeing that Social Security is in imment danger of collaspe. This is not true. In fact Social Security is solvent for the next 2 decades with NO reduction in benefits. The right is just doing their old fear tactic against the older members of our society. Privatizing Social Security - giving or handing it over to Wall Street is a bad idea. Social Security will follow the path of our 401K plans if we do that and we have seen that play out before.

Part of the great economic plan of Boehner's and the Republican Party is to gut Social Security, Medicare and Food Stamps to pay for the agenda to make the 2% richer and more powerful. Their agenda is a complete and total destruction of the middle class as we know it.

Science takes another hit from a Regan era Judge. My college education was as a Biochemist (Bachelors) and if what I read is correct, stem cell research is very promising for many medical conditions facing our population from the cure of diabetes to replacing failed organs with new ones. Sounds like science fiction but there are research facilities in Europe that are making science breakthroughs every day, using Stem Cell research.

The US is becoming a third world country unless we stop it. Town are unpaving roads, dimming lights, part time law enforcement and firefighters, cutting school days to 4 days per week, closing hospitals you name it is currently being done somewhere in the US today. We lag in science and math where we once were the shinning example of technology. Not any more. The right supports increasing the deficit to record numbers to get votes but will not pass bills that help every American.

We as a country are facing what may very well be a turning point in how the world looks at us. We are falling behind further and further every day do to the previous administrations fixation on power and greed instead of what is right for America. If this does not stop we are all in bg trouble. Democrats and Republican alike.

IR--I am with you about Social Security and the value it has to our society. Another aspect of it that I don't understand is the fact that contributions are capped at a salary max. of just over $100,000. When someone on Wall Street gets a bonus of $10 million, why shouldn't there be Social Security tax assessed on that? I can see giving folks a respite from the tax---maybe exempt wages from $100,000 to between $100,000 and $1 million and let the tax come back in after that.

I’ve been following the egg recall story carefully, in part because I’ve been following Jack DeCoster in the news for a lot of years. He first came to the attention of Iowans then-Governor Terry Branstad (yes, the same one who wants the office back now) set up incredibly loose rules for livestock confinement operations here. DeCoster Farms quickly became a regular on the news here with a history http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-08-22-supplier-violations-egg-recall_N.htm of manure spills that polluted groundwater, killed fish, threatened drinking water, contributed to the annual Summer dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico http://serc.carleton.edu/microbelife/topics/deadzone/ , and created smells so intense that they’ve been proven to correlate to impaired health among neighbors to the facilities.

Cutting corners and treating government fines as a cost of doing business allowed his operation to grow rapidly, putting family farms that had been around for generations out of business because doing it wrong was cheaper than doing the right thing. Eventually the record became so clear that he was barred from building additional confinement operations, but he was already so big that fines of up to $2,000,000 weren’t enough to force compliance. His operations have been raided repeatedly by immigration officials. DeCoster would bring in undocumented workers with the promise of “good jobs”, only to pay them up to $2.00/hr below minimum wage and deduct for the rat-infested trailers he rented them for housing. Those are jobs that could have to locals and one more way that his cheating allowed him to have lower costs than competitors. More environmental problems, more labor problems, a pattern of sexual harassment, and poor sanitation where food is produced have been regular features of DeCoster operations from the beginning. Now thousands have been sickened and over half a BILLION eggs have been recalled thanks to this one bad egg.

All of this illustrates why proper government regulation is so critical for the health and preservation of American society. DeCoster farms has taken advantage everywhere regulations are weak, oversight is limited, and fines are low to drive others out of business and make his industries worse in the process. Is it worth that for your eggs to be a penny less each? Have you even noticed the price of your food going down? The answer is no, because prices haven’t gone down. Depressed prices haven’t been passed on to consumers, they’ve been added to the profit margins of Swift and John Morrell, Cargill and Conagra.

The current food safety scare could easily have been avoided by increased oversight and a requirement to vaccinate poultry against carrying salmonella, but the Party of NO has kept the required legislation bottled up in the Senate http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/food/safety/2010-08-25-foodsafety25_ST_N.htm , figuring unsafe food is a small price to pay for their return to power.

Upton Sinclair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle would be very sad to see how little we’ve learned.

Independent Redneck Va.

I enjoyed this post. I used to work for L.L.Bean back in the day and at one point we started to get requests for "made in America" products, which really presented a challenge for our buyers because the stuff we got from Asia was so much cheaper than American goods. I remember one VP literally licking her chops talking about the sweet prices she got for material made in Asia. But, I'll tell you, the requests for "made in America" goods really did affect the buying strategies of the company, in that they did go out of their way to find and promote American sources. If there hadn't been for that pressure from consumers, however, they wouldn't have made that effort.

Ron I actually agree with you about many of these issues (with the exception of embryonic research as that is not -- just like abortion-- that I can agree with. ) but while I do agree with you that we are going down hill as a country fast I have to ask you something.

What is, in your opinion, the solution? More government involvement? Weve seen the results in the housing market when gov't gets involved. There was a temporary spike when the fed. gov't offered Americans $8000 to buy a home. What happened when that program ended though? The housing market continued the same downward spiral that it was on prior to the gov't program. So basically we spent a whole bunch of borrowed money and the same problems are still here.

If we want to see what happens when the gov't becomes overly involved all we have to do is look at Europe. France, Germany, Greece, Spain....all these countries have ALREADY tried the big central gov't approach and have all now (or on the brink of) failing. Spain did the green jobs thing and has now scraped that idea. Many European countries are trying to get out from under single payer (gov't run) health care because it costs too much money to run it. Even Canada is starting to do this. You have a Canadian elected official coming here to the US to get a medical procedure done because he cant get it done in a timely manner in his own country.

Greece is about ready to collapse under the shear cost of the union pension plans that gov't is involved in. Europeans have a much more advanced entitlement feeling than we do. People in some European nations expect the government to take care of everything and (as we have seen recently in Greece) they riot when the government says "Sorry but were out of money so your on your own"

What makes anyone think that we are going to run these same type of entitlement programs (on top of the entitelment programs we already have) and the same thing wont happen to us?

And a more important question: When did we as Americans get to the point where we (supposedly) want to become an entitlement country?

Isnt America the country of personal success? The country that people come to to try to make a better life for themselves?

The road were going down now (brought on by Progressive/liberals Democrats and RINOS alike) is going to destroy this once great country....not the fact that were not allowing researchers to use emryonic stem cells to find cures to diseases.

If we get back to true American entrepenuership and actually allow a true free market (which we have not had in decades) run again we can save this country and once again become the world's pre-eminant superpower once again.

Will this be a painless process? Absolutely not. But we HAVE to let things fail. Again Ill use the example of Studebaker (the old car company) if they would have been deemed "too big to fail" long ago we'd all be driving gov't designed Studebakers..... but now were all being told to drive gov't designed Chevys.

We need to let companies fail. If we do that and the govt gets out of the way other companies will step and and take the lead. This is the way America is supposed to be.

No matter what were in a world of hurt. The only choices left are do we learn from the failings of the socialist European countries or do we let recent history repeat itself and we make the exact same mistake?

John B - Good to get your take on the egg recall situation. The other day I had noted that this company's lack of self regulation was an example of what happens when companies are left to self regulate.

The right sees this as a failure of the FDA instead of rightly blaming the offending company. They don't understand that the FDA had fined them already but due to manpower and scarcity of inspections they couldn't prevent this.

All of this illustrates why proper government regulation is so critical for the health and preservation of American society. I couldn't agree more!

Navy-they're UNPAVING roads in your town? How much does that cost? Why are they doing it? It sure isn't to save money, since 'de-construction' costs as much or more than construction. Gee, you must have some dumb or corrupt leaders in YOUR town.

Grimey-my take on all this moaning on the part of the left over the losses of entrenched 'moderate' REpublicans in favor of "TEA Party candidates" is that it is theater intended to demonize those who demand fiscal conservatism as the only way to save the country. (Although I am very sorry that McCollum lost. I thought he was a good candidate, and have my serious doubts about Scott.)

Anyway, let them shed their crocodile tears-we are energized, they are demoralized. We have the majority of the independents-they have lost the youth vote. We are going to win big in November-and that will be good for us and the country.

Larry from Minot ~ When some European country develops the cure for Alzheimer's or Parkinson's using embryonic stemcells, would you favor banning it here in the US, or more to the point, would you refuse to take advantage of it or allow your family members to take advantage of it? If you have a daughter or granddaughter who is the victim of rape or incest, or whose life will be threatened if she carries a child to term, would you renounce her for having an abortion?

I didn't think so. You don't sound crazy. Just confused.

IR - Thanks for the sound advice - it makes more sense than anything my own financial advisor has ever tried to tell me. I especially liked your analogy to Riverboat Gamblers. Being from a bit further up north, I've always thought of Wall Street as being (in the words of a song from "Guys and Dolls") "The oldest established permanent floating crap game in New York" myself, but hey - gambling is gambling, and it's always the house that wins in the end.

One might also look at some past unemployment numbers to see how well tax cuts worked...

Unemployment rate Jan 2000 - 4.0% - Unemployment rate Jan 2009 7.7% ....Hummmm...those tax cuts really created a whole lot of new jobs didn't they????

Every republican seems to be asking how many jobs did the Stimulus act initiated by Pres. Bush and followed up by Pres. Obama create???

I ask this question - how many jobs did tax cuts by Pres. Bush create in the US?? (Not overseas).

IR - What is this big pile of money you are talking about? The Social Security Trust Fund is already spent. Why do you think Al Gore in 2000 campaigned on putting the surplus in a "Lockbox"? You can sit and dream of the 4.1T in paper that sits in filing cabinet but unless it is backed by real tax revenues in the future it is worthless. So when Social Security revenue goes negative in the next 10 year because of demographics, either:

1) Outlays will have to be cut (raising the retirement age, lowering payments)

2) Revenues will have to be increased. Taxes raised on either income or Social Security

3) Other programs will have to be cut. Medicare is in more trouble than SS so I would expect rationing

4) Borrow more. Lets see if we can still pull this off

Unless this program is restructured it will die on the vine....not a political view an economic one.

Anna

Did you bother reading ANYTHING else that I wrote or did you see that Im against stem cell research and forgoe evrything else.

I am staunchly against any form or manner of stem cell research as all of that is nothing more than an attempt at man trying to play God.

People get incurable diseases for a reason. Do any of us have a clue as to the reason? No and its not our place to know.

No I do NOT want this country involved in any of this nonsense. If they can develop a way to get stem cells from living people who give their consent then I have no problem with it. but to take the stem cells from an unborn child who has no say in the matter is somethng I can not and will not get behind.

The problem anymore is so many people look at unborn children as "fetuses" and as if they are not alive. From the moment of inception that is a person not a potential lab experiment.

What is wrong with some Americans today? Have we lost all sense of morality?

John B, Des Moines, IA

You are making a very excellent point. I read a few chapters in the "Jungle" written by Upton Sinclair, Jr. I found personal satisfaction in reading it because my father and uncle worked at the stockyards here in Chic-town. Similarly, I enjoy listening to the elders in my family talking about the "New Deal".

The point, I trying to make is it appears that Greedy Right and Blue Dogs have become cannibals to this society in order to satisfy their monetary desires. A whole quadrant of the USA has set off rippling effects for the country ecologically, and economically; maybe even the planet . I don't understand how the righties can deny its effect. If it wasn't for the FDA, EPA, NOAA, fire fighters, police, and any government agency their anti- government sentiment when regulations and safety will enhance life including stem cells. Maybe , if one of these greedy corporatist is either harmed or died (I wish death on no one) they would stop their destruction .

I saw Platypus mouth Michelle Malkin (pardon my insult I detest that self loathing Negrito) expanding all her nonsense about the President's culture of corruption on Hannity last night.

Leaders of the recreational and commercial fishing industry are planning a boat protest against federal policies Thursday outside the harbor of Vineyard Haven on Martha’s Vineyard, where President Obama and his family are summer vacationing.

http://michellemalkin.com/2010/08/24/fishermen-against-obama-job-destruction/

The right will do anything to highlight the imaginary too many vacations the President is taking.

Paul S,

Since we need to create 125,000 jobs every month just to keep up with population growth then for the 8 Bush years we should have created 12,000,000 jobs. The actual jobs created were 3,000,000 so the net job creation was negative 9,000,000 (- Nine million jobs).

Alan,

You are wrong as usual. Social Security is fine for the next few decades. You and your right wing buddies are playing the fear card again toward the older population. You have no ideas on what to do about anything, so you drop back to the Rove hate and fear manta. How Repugnant you guys are.

Those who would axe benefits are spreading myths designed to make you think there's a looming crisis. Well, it's just not true.

The stark reality is that it will be several decades before the program encounters any financial problems. The program's trust fund will have a $4.3 trillion surplus by 2023, and can pay all its obligations for decades to come. And strengthening Social Security is easy—making the very rich pay their fair share by lifting the cap on contributions by the wealthy would allow the program to pay all its obligations indefinitely.

Paul S, NY NY: I ask this question - how many jobs did tax cuts by Pres. Bush create in the US?? (Not overseas).

Not many, but just like Obama's stimulus, it saved millions of jobs.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

Unpaving streets. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704913304575370950363737746.html

Turning off streetlights. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123691065

Cutbacks in Police service. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-25-1Anresponsecops25_ST_N.htm

And fire departments. http://www.theorion.com/news/fire-department-budget-cuts-may-cause-higher-response-times-1.1539544

Hospitals closing. http://www.ultimatememorial.com/2010/04/hospital-closing-affects-community

Reduced school weeks. http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704869304575104124088312524.html

Republicans are working hard to destroy our government. If only they appreciated that our nation will be destroyed in the bargain.

Social Security. The republicans like to claim that social security and medicare add to the National debt. They do NOT. Both contain the money WE taxpayers and employers pay toward our retirement and toward our old-age medical care. Yes, these programs are a large portion of our annual budgets but unlike two wars, they are paid for by We the People. They are funded.

The life and dollars of the medicare system was greatly harmed, by intention of the GOP, when the republicans passed the UNFUNDED Medicare Rx legislation. The GOP burdened the system with an expense that had NOT BEEN BUILT into it previously.

The bruhaha over Social Security is a lot of noise. The problem for the year 2037 is there will be fewer people paying into the system because of the baby boomer generation. A simple fix would solve it. Increase the amount of income on which social security and medicare are paid. The only people affected by this would be those who will receive the highest social security benefits. Most Americans never reach the yearly income level where they are exempted for the remainder of the year.

Third World. It is sad to think that America is in decline but we have been driving down the road for 30 years--starve the beast. When Reagan and the GOP convinced us that tax cuts are the best thing since sliced bread, we cut off our own noses by depriving local and state governments from the ability to provide good roads, safe bridges, fire and police, sewer systems, water mains, electrical and gas grids, quality education with modern technology. Grumbling about taxes is in our DNA just the same as grumbling about the weather. Most polls show that Americans feel they pay about the right amount of taxes.

Our Corporatist society allows big oil and big coal to hold us back from moving toward the manufacture of clean energy products. Once the great industrial innovators, we have allowed China and other countries to move ahead of us. We lost our scientific edge in medical research by allowing social issues to prevent advancement of stem cell research. This has always puzzled me, people have no problems harvesting embryos by the thousands, destroying them when no longer needed yet fight against using those destined for the trash bin for research of disease and to find cures.

Egg Recall. In 1994, Iowa assessed four separate penalities against DeCoster Farms for environmental violations, many of them involving hog waste. In 1997, DeCoster Egg Farms agreed to pay $2 million in fines to settle citations brought in 1996 for health and safety violations at the farm in Turner, Maine. In 2000, Iowa designated DeCoster a "habitual violator" of environmental regulations for hog manure runoff into waterways; that label made him subject to increased penalties and prohibited him from building new farms. In 2007, 51 workers were arrested during an immigration raid at DeCoster egg farms--his farms had been the subject of at least three previous raids. In 2010, Maine Contract Farming (successor to DeCoster Egg Farms) agreed to pay $25,000 in penalities and make a one-time payment of $100,000 to the Maine Dept of Agriculture over animal cruelty allegations (we saw those videos on the news). DeCoster, a fine corporate citizen.

Yeah, Larry -- immoral, that's me. But, even while wallowing in my own immoral, heathen confusion, I had time to notice that you completely failed to answer my questions.

Since we need to create 125,000 jobs every month just to keep up with population growth then for the 8 Bush years we should have created 12,000,000 jobs. The actual jobs created were 3,000,000 so the net job creation was negative 9,000,000 (- Nine million jobs).

And by the same measure, we've lost 3 million jobs in the last 19 months and needed to create 125,000 per month to stay even, so the net job creation is a negative 5,400,000.

The stark reality is that it will be several decades before the program encounters any financial problems. The program's trust fund will have a $4.3 trillion surplus by 2023, and can pay all its obligations for decades to come. And strengthening Social Security is easy—making the very rich pay their fair share by lifting the cap on contributions by the wealthy would allow the program to pay all its obligations indefinitely.

OK so your position is that we don't have to do anything for several decades. Problem solved. How is the sand down by your head? Why did Al Gore keep talking about that "lockbox"?

BTW What was all the hate and fear I was spreading? Unless you're talking about the financial state of the country which I do think is scary.

Point proven – The tax cuts for the rich over the last 10 years should have created 15 million jobs when in fact they created zero.

Thanks

Sorry had to step out for a while. It’s so good to see all my friends and Neighbors this morning and welcome to all of you’ll.

No Jo Sorry dear but I have listened to that cut government expenditures for thirty years and I ain’t never seen the Republicans follow thru on it yet. I don’t think I’ll trust them to do it this time either. As far as tax cuts to spur business I have the same attitude about them as I do about the S.S. You cut taxes for businesses of Americans for Americans and not somebody that operates offshore or takes my American jobs offshore then we can talk. Until then you’re are just talking about raising the money for essential services on the back of the folks that stay here and do their best to move us forward as a nation instead of the folks that are using all of us for to swim them across the pond for free.

Hey “Grimey” I’m glad to see you here too. Let me take the opportunity to invite you down to the Friday afternoon get together at The Dew Drop Inn. I’ve already put in a pass for you with the Bull Riding Bouncer and since Margarita’s seem to be your beverage of choice by special arrangement they will be on special at the bar. I’ll leave the P.T.’s up to your discretion but the first round is on me

Lots of great posts today,

John B. Des Moines,

We should point out it's not so much about big or small government, but SMART govt.

Self regulation is a proven loser, why then do the repubs think it's so great, and much of the public also believes in the repubs ideas like this?

In a somewhat related theme, what the hell are the people in Florida thinking when they pick a crook to represent the repubs in the Governers race?????? WOW, JUST WOW!!!

Ron, Indiana, Colts in Lambeau tonight should be good, 3rd game usually a tune up for the regulars, I love your posts keep them coming! I'm 60 miles from Green Bay ,and a HUGE PACKERS FAN, GO PACK GO!!

Point proven – The tax cuts for the rich over the last 10 years should have created 15 million jobs when in fact they created zero.

Point proven - The trillion dollar stimulus spent over the last 19 months should have created 4 million jobs when in fact we lost 3 million.

Thanks.

John Bohlman, couldn't agree more about the smart government comment. Yes, some regulation is poorly constructed, some of it is past its time, but it's all there because someone saw a need. The "all government is bad" bunch is just wrong. If something isn't working fix it, but think about why something's in place before we get rid of it completely.

Paul S, NY NY: I ask this question - how many jobs did tax cuts by Pres. Bush create in the US?? (Not overseas).

"Not many, but just like Obama's stimulus, it saved millions of jobs."

Actually, JoAanna, the growth in jobs during the Bush administration was the slowest in recent history, but I think you know that (since you are actually Karl Rove in disguise, I've decided. Certainly not a "real person.")

Most of those 3 million jobs were lost before the stimulus was put into law.

Again, Thanks

Independent Redneck - I enjoyed the post. However, as someone who has worked briefly in financial services, I would guess that advisors' reluctance to work with you had less to do with the extra work they would have to do to accomodate your need, and more to do with their inability to properly minimize your risk (if we wish to call them greedy, it could have to do with your "meager" savings). Companies that invest and pay taxes only in America are typically smaller, and therefore are higher risk investments. I'm assuming you're older - apologies if I'm mistaken. As people get older they tend to make safer investments: treasuries and low growth, high dividend stocks, which usually means investing in mature, multinational corporations, who may or may not be paying taxes/expanding in the U.S.

I agree that Social Security is fine for now. Republicans have argued that it's going broke for decades. I have also seen a study or two that show that privatizing Social Security wouldn't actually create greater wealth (it would be roughly the same). However, I think a properly regulated system of privatized Social Security would create jobs, give people greater freedom in their investments, inject liquidity into markets, and, perhaps most importantly, get people involved in/educated about the economy.

Fellow Travelers:

Geez, what fabulous posts. FR, there is a pattern to collapsing posts, but it may not be what you think. I have been wrong too many times to say I am certain, but I believe this tracks to the blame game. We are all victims. This is the foundation of identity politics. You don't have to think. Your side is never wrong. It is always the other guy. It seems to me that collapsed posts - aside from the obviously foul and those written to incite - present an irrefutable fact that forces the reader to accept personal responsibility.

Look at LouisJ's collapsed post. He called out this chucklehead Joe from Albany and hit him square in the face with the truth. Note that good old Joe is totally dependent on labels. "Lefty liberals"? Really, Joe? What are those. You see, these clowns - and they populate the right and the left - not only wish to frame the debate, but to define the words we use. Fact is, they aren't very good at it, and when their paper mache shields are shredded they have nowhere to hide. By collapsing a post, the opposing view is gone - conquered, as it were - and in their very weak minds they have successfully won the argument. Just my opinion.

I try to bring a nugget now and again, and I hope this meets your definition of a nugget. This is about stem cell research and the taking of "life". Typically, those who oppose stem-cell research - and of course I dare not forget the pro-"Life" crowd - simply do not have science on their side. It is an absolute fact that life does not being at conception. Period. This is beyond debate except for those who do not understand life.

Life as we know it - more than likely - began only one time. ONCE! It began as a singular event that has radiated in a vast number of directions and has resulted in an array of life so astounding and wide-ranging as to humble the mind of a mere man. Today, that single spark is you, it is me, it is a tree, it is an amoeba. Life is not a linear event. It comes in at least three dimensions. To imagine that we create life is to wrap ourselves in the mantle of a god. Larry, in Minot, has it exactly backwards. We're just using the gifts we were given by Mother Nature.

It is not possible to explain this to the willfully ignorant and those who simply do not have the intellectual capacity to understand. It is enough however, to provide us with two insights. First, the universe around us is beyond our understanding, but is full of wonder and delight. Second, our time here is nothing more than the blink of an eye. We cannot waste that time arguing with those who will not or cannot see.

John B. Des Moines, I'm in total agreement with you on all of this! Oh, I love the name too!! haha

Most of those 3 million jobs were lost before the stimulus was put into law.

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was signed in to law on February 17th, 2009. So you are trying to tell us that most jobs were lost between January 19th and February 17th?

And lets be real Dennis, if only for a moment. You throw nearly a record trillion dollars on "stimulus", and you should expect robust job growth soon after. That's why it's called a "stimulus". Look at the data today: employment down, housing starts down, housing bankruptcies at record highs, revised GDP numbers from both private firms, the Obama administration, and the CBO, all pointing down.

Stimulus doesn't mean barely keeping our heads above water, it means building an environment of sustained and robust growth. In that context, the stimulus has been an absolute failure.

I think if no one responded to Joanna that she would just fade away, or move back to Fox & Frauds. If you don't water the plant, it dies. That is also the way I feel about the constant liberal media chatter about Palin, Beck, and every other right wing idiot out there. I guess you have to respond in some way, but when you "repeat" their idiocy it gains ground. I think at times that is all people hear, the same repeated stories, with the same repeated lies and idiocy, but just hearing it again and again, it catches on. And MSNBC is very bad about that, repeating the lie, then debunking it or making fun of it. If you have a pass-by viewer, all they hear is the lie and it gives credence to it. Maybe just calling them liars, talking about their lack of education, qualification, etc. and pointing the audience to material that debunks a statement is better than constantly showing their pics and repeating their hateful ideology. Why give Beck or Palin another platform. I get sick of hearing their names mentioned. The only ones who can truly repeat their lies as well as debunk them immediately are Stewart and Colbert. Ed, Chris, Keith and Rachel should stick to the story, debunk the lie, and quit giving another platform to the nuts.

Just like I heard someone talking about Shirley Sherrod's 15 minutes of fame and she should give it up. For all that I have seen, she did not ask for 15 min. of fame, it was thrust upon her by the evil Breitbart, who will, of course, be speaking at the Beck's rally, along with the other devils. Well, we have given Palin and Beck a lot more than 15 minutes of fame, fame which they certainly do not deserve. They should be called out as hate-mongers, bigots, and frauds.

IR...if the margaritas are flowing...I am there!! :-)

Anon Monster!

Independent Redneck - I enjoyed the post. However, as someone who has worked briefly in financial services, I would guess that advisors' reluctance to work with you had less to do with the extra work they would have to do to accomodate your need, and more to do with their inability to properly minimize your risk (if we wish to call them greedy, it could have to do with your "meager" savings). Companies that invest and pay taxes only in America are typically smaller, and therefore are higher risk investments. I'm assuming you're older - apologies if I'm mistaken. As people get older they tend to make safer investments: treasuries and low growth, high dividend stocks, which usually means investing in mature, multinational corporations, who may or may not be paying taxes/expanding in the U.S.

Anon Thanks for stopping by this morning and giving me a perusal. You are pretty close and your analysis of the market is pretty close as far as my limited skills take me. Yes old folks do try to minimize risk in most of the ways you speak of as do I. However I do have a tendency to split it up about half and half and have found over the years that if you do your homework properly that the higher risk you speak of can be minimized.

I really don’t mean to imply greed or anything improper in the folks that walk away. My experience has been that up until just recently when things got much more competitive that many of the financial folks didn’t have the knowledge to do their homework correctly. I’ll bet that is changing now when competition for the investment dollar is getting more intense.

Since you must be a little younger than me I would like your thoughts on why the younger generation would be more comfortable with the market as you describe it. I mean when did we get to the point where American companies were considered higher risk and we start rewarding our investors for using this as a excuse to transfer our money offshore. Seems to me that goes to the heart of the question of why we haven’t developed jobs and industry here in the U.S. for quite a while now.

Grimey I'll even go so far as to give you my personal promise that I won't let Red hold you down and brand a "D" anywhere on you. Just my way of taking care of my honored guests and compatriots.

IR... why did you have to go and ruin the surprise?!!

Now that you went and let the cat out of the bag... I was thinking more in the way of matching tattoo's ;0)))

I have a hunch that if Grimey gets enough tequila in him...

Red I'm just thinking that there may not be enough Tequila in WORLD to dull the pain from all the bruises around mine and his ears and head from what his wife would do to him for coming home with unfamiliar tattoo's in unusual places and me for leading him astray.

Independent Red- news for you: No one has your "40 years." It's gone. Been spent years ago. SS is a massive Ponzi scheme. They are taking my money today to pay this month's benefits. It can only work if people are paying in more than is being paid out. That's why SS taxes keep going up (more people are retiring) and why it will eventually be broke (more people will be collecting checks than will be working - or willing - to pay the taxes to pay the checks)!

David W - the advances made in stem cell research are actually in the area of adult stem cell research not embryonic stem cell research. There's a lot of confusion there but in the harvesting of adult stem cells the donor doesn't have to die for the harvest to take place. That's not the case with embryonic stem cells.

Cathy M.: I think if no one responded to Joanna that she would just fade away, or move back to Fox & Frauds. If you don't water the plant, it dies. That is also the way I feel about the constant liberal media chatter about Palin, Beck, and every other right wing idiot out there

I see you're extra whiny today Cathy. Hey, if you don't like it, then don't read it. Clear now?

But while we're here, lets look through the rest of your post and see if there are any words of wisdom you might have managed to spew out:

Okay, you p!ss and moan about Fox, a prerequisite for all loons. You call people you disagree with idiots. Now that's mature. And you say things you disagree with are lies.

Yeah, you really add a lot to the conversation. Why don't you get lost and come back when you have something to say.

Navy retired, you double or triple dipping.

Independent Redneck Wrote:

Anon Thanks for stopping by this morning and giving me a perusal. You are pretty close and your analysis of the market is pretty close as far as my limited skills take me. Yes old folks do try to minimize risk in most of the ways you speak of as do I. However I do have a tendency to split it up about half and half and have found over the years that if you do your homework properly that the higher risk you speak of can be minimized.

I really don’t mean to imply greed or anything improper in the folks that walk away. My experience has been that up until just recently when things got much more competitive that many of the financial folks didn’t have the knowledge to do their homework correctly. I’ll bet that is changing now when competition for the investment dollar is getting more intense.

Since you must be a little younger than me I would like your thoughts on why the younger generation would be more comfortable with the market as you describe it. I mean when did we get to the point where American companies were considered higher risk and we start rewarding our investors for using this as a excuse to transfer our money offshore. Seems to me that goes to the heart of the question of why we haven’t developed jobs and industry here in the U.S. for quite a while now.

IR - Anytime!

I can’t speak to the knowledge of financial service reps as a whole or any progress they’ve made on that front since December of ’07. I can say that, with the subscription services these companies pay for and the reports required by the SEC, the homework isn’t difficult to do. After thinking about it a bit though, it could also be that firms wish to push you toward investment opportunities they have already scouted or have control over, like a mutual fund. The small, regional branch of the investment firm I worked for (an internship, really) had a long-term investment philosophy and about 30-45 companies they saw that were good investment opportunities that matched that philosophy. It wasn’t a bad deal for consumers, who really were getting a solid plan and did have plenty of room to invest in other companies. For the firm though, it allowed them to do heavy research in only a small subset of stocks available.

In pushing you to invest in a mutual fund, companies get to push work to a fund manager, and then charge you a management fee. Again this works to your benefit and the firm’s – you achieve diversification and they don’t work as hard to manage your money. However, charges vary by fund, so do your research before investing!

As for younger people being more comfortable with the market, I’m not sure that’s true. I just have an education in the subject. American companies aren’t considered higher risk, smaller companies are. Companies often grow quickly, usually in emerging industries. During this time, their growth can be huge but, until they’ve fully established themselves, they’re vulnerable to everything from large swings in demand to other new businesses in the same industry. Once a company matures a bit it begins issuing dividends, mostly because there aren’t as many opportunities for growth. Those opportunities that do exist are often overseas, so the money goes there (the money of the investor normally stays in the U.S. as the stocks are traded in secondary markets. Only if a multinational issues new stock can you reasonably expect it to go overseas).

The concept of bringing industry back to America brings up many complicated issues, such as lax labor laws overseas, our high corporate tax rate, emerging markets elsewhere, shipping concerns, etc. To create jobs in general though, we need demand. I think a second stimulus, this time heavy on infrastructure and light on tax cuts, would help.

Anon Thank you. O7 would definitely make me more shall we say classically trained than you. In other words I'm three days older than dirt. That is why I seek out someone like yourself and do the best I can to listen to what you have to say. I'm going to kind of keep what you have up there in mind so that when you and I have a conversation in the future I'll know where your coming from.I do hope that I get a chance to see more of you here in the future. I do feel that your pretty close on your thoughts here and maybe we'll get a chance to hash out a few fine points that I might differ on you with. As far as the last point about the tax laws and stimulus I think your dead on the mark. Wish the first stimulus had been more infrastructure and less tax cuts myself but we both know the opposite I guess was the compromise that we had to live with. Again my thanks for the perspective and I'll look forward to some good conversation in the future

IR - I appreciate the kind words, and enjoy reading your posts as well. I look forward to our future conversations. =)

Larry,

People get incurable diseases for a reason. Do any of us have a clue as to the reason? No and its not our place to know.

Polio? Small Pox? Cancer? Alzhimer's? By your reasoning, we should just let disease run rampant through our society? Everytime you take an aspirin or cough syrup or get a flu shot, your benefiting from scientific progress in medical research. What about children born with deformities and the doctors that give them a chance at a normal life?

No one is saying that we should abort a pregnancy solely for the purpose of harvesting stem cells. I for one wish there were fewer unwanted pregnancies, but the reality is that without sexual education and access to birth control, we're going to continue to have unwanted pregnancies. It's not something you can 'pray' away.

People are going to have sex, no matter what purity or chastity contract you try to slap on them or whatever fiery sermon you preach. It's human nature to procreate. Teens are biologically capable of human reproduction 'for a reason', a more plausible one than yours. You just can't get past your religious upbringing that it's wrong? From an evolutionary perspective, it's perfectly natural in the animal kingdom. We've chosen as a society to restrict human nature in adolescents, which is no easy task given that human physiology has had thousands of years (more than five thousand) to development.

Sorry Louie. Your race card has exceeded it's limit and is no longer valid. Would you like me to destroy it or would you like to use another card? Or maybe you'd like to just quit your whining altogether. Remember: "Dissent is patriotic". *

* Expires 01-20-09

Louie

Who cares what color his skin is.... Its his ideals and agenda that Im against.

How is wanting the president and his already failing agenda to fail a "clear indication that you want the country to fail"? I don't see how you made the leap in logic.

And I agree with CU, your racist vitriol has no place in the 21st century.

Spot on, Larry.

I'm sure the crowd of TEA baggers will come and collapse this statement simply because it is true to what they represent, a bitterness toward someone of a different culture to what they represent.

Are you talking about President Obama? What different culture do you refer to? Do you think he is a Muslim? Do you think he was born in a different country? Why is he from a different culture? Maybe it's because he's Hawaiian? Is it because he went to an elite school like Harvard that he's different from you and me? Is it because he has hip-hop on his iPod? Does he have a tight group that uses Blackberry Messenger?

What is this mysterious "different culture" to which you refer?

LouisJ---the "black man" who happens to be the most powerful man in the world is not the issue with the TEA PARTY. It is his agenda and policies that have brought about the TEA PARTY movement. His race has absolutely nothing to do with it! And I'm really tired of hearing that race BS!!

Watch out LouisJ - You must have hit a nerve with them. The gremlins, I mean trolls are out and are going to collapse your comments. :)

If the Tea Party actually looked at the real Obama policies and agenda, they would find they benefit from them--the middle class is paying the lowest tax rates in 50 years, they cannot be denied medical coverage for pre-existing conditions, their insurance cannot be cancelled for getting sick, they cannot be gouged by credit card companies, financial regulations have been put in place to protect consumers not banks. The GOP is not the party of middle America, it is the party of Corporatist elites whose power undermines the very people who make the products and give them their wealth. That's not democratic ideology, that is simple fact for those who bother to look for it. I do not believe everything democrats say and I definitely do not believe anything republicans say any more. Neither party has all the answers but working against each other, none of our problems get solved.

Yellowdog,

They already did, see above.

Yep they already did. But no big deal... they can do it all day long, based on this childish display they know I'm right against the Right. No debate, just a bunch of whining.

Nice try Louis,

I wish you would where the term TEA came from...It's Taxed Enough Already. The Left has attempted to turn it into a cartoon like term. Don't think it will work for the working middle class...nice try.

Nice play on the "Race Card"...The president was also elected by a lot of white Americans too...get over it.

You're right, seeing what amounts to Socialist programs has been making us crazy for the last year and a half. Losing jobs has been making people crazy for the last year and a half. Seeing bankers vilified (with the exception of Fannie and Freddie) is has been making us crazy for the last year and a half.

Ask yourself why does the Commander in Chief have to make sweetheart deals with his own party if the programs are so good and then why do votes have to be made in the dark of night to pass? Why does the Congress and Senate get 1 1/2 days to review a 2000+ page bill? Must be transparency!

What you are seeing is buyers remorse and filibuster is the only tool left to keep the country from being driven off a cliff.

Buyer's Remorse... cute. The only politician I see that is buying votes are the Republithug candidates that are finding no support from the Right. Lacking donations as much as brain cells, just ask Aqua Buddha Paul.

It's great that many of my white brethren saw that President Obama was the right man for the presidency... the racists I refer to are the Right Wing fringed fools such as yourself that attempt the old stance of "the race card is old" when you play the racist game every waking moment with your posters, 1960 style spitting, yelling racists rants all over the internet(s), "Not the America you no longer know" as well as other bigoted whackadoodle tirades Dictator Beckistan orders you to take...

You're a racist fool and the fact that you attempt to defend the other racist fools only shows that you are a coward if you aren't.

There's no need to try "Quiescent" when it's the truth.

Jody - I think the President's role is to consider not just my personal interests but the interests of the country as a whole and that is why I am opposed to his policies - I don't think they will be helpful to the country in the long run. You and I can disagree about that but eventually only one of us will be proved right. However, since you want to talk about the benefits that I personally enjoy as a result of the actions of this president let me rephrase a post I made in another forum regarding lies I believe the President has said and how those lies have directly affected me. You can read this as "Policies the President has enacted and how they have affected me." :

Here's a couple that directly affected me. "If you like your current health plan you can keep it." - Not true (a lie). The healthcare bill that was passed into law requires that I can no longer have an HSA beginning next year. My plan that used an HSA will no longer be sold, I cannot keep that plan because of the new law. "As a result of the new healthcare bill your costs will go down." Not true (a lie). Beginning July 1, 2010 (last month) over the counter medications can no longer be purchased from my FSA . That means the cost of my over the counter medications (a low cost alternative to some prescription drugs) now INCREASED because of the loss of the tax benefit of the FSA. Now I know that some folks point to his promise not to put lobbyists in his administration, his promise to publish all legislation on the internet prior to a vote in Congress or his claim that the healthcare bill would be crafted in open meetings televised on C-Span as examples of his lies but I'm just talking about a couple that directly affected me. BTW: Just in case you think that only "fat cats have HSAs and FSAs" as the President repeatedly stated - my wife and I work full-time and our combined income is less than $70,000. I guess that's another lie if anyone is keeping track.

The President lied to you because you won't be able to purchas over-the-counter medications out of your HSA? That's a ridiculously narrow definition. And health plans that include HSA's will still be available. http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Features/Insuring-Your-Health/Rising-Costs-Spur-Increase-In-Health-Savings-Accounts.aspx

This is for the Louis J haters and dissenters. This is for the "It's not his race, it's his policies" crowd too.

Those of you who truly are against this president's agenda and policy, I have to ask you where were you 10-20 years ago when these same policies were around, under a different Dem or Rep president? Where was your "Vocal Opposition"? We didn't hear a word from you until right now. Coincidence? Maybe.

But the giveaway that there is "more to this dissent than meets the eye" is that a lot of the proposals championed by the President and passed by this most recent Congress contained ideas that originated with Republicans. Yet, the same people who thought they were such good ideas under a Republican administration now think these are bad ideas because we have a Democratic administration. If it was good enough then, why is it bad now? Ideology? Maybe. Something more nefarious is probably closer to the truth.

Tax breaks, smaller government, less social programs, deficit reduction. All good items that should be discussed rationally between intelligent, democratically elected representatives of our government. But when the discussion starts out with, "He's/She's nothing more than a "Tax and Spend Liberal" or the ever famous "We want our Country Back!" followed up with "We want this Presidents agenda to fail." I have to ask myself, where was all of this outrage before? Why so much outrage from the TEA Party and Republican party members since President Obama was sworn in? Is it solely racial? I highly doubt that race is the sole factor. Does race play a part in the current diatribe? Yes, I personally believe it is a relevant factor. Is it playing the "Race Card" to speak on it as a fact? No more than the opposition does when they fail to acknowledge that there are prominent people who speak on their behalf that clearly use "racial code words" and innuendo when putting forth their case.

If you're one of those who state that "I have no problem with the President being Black/African American/Blue/Green/Yellow/Brown/White/etc." and you truly believe in that principal then why do you let the racists and bigots hijack your message and dilute it with their hate and prejudice? Why don't you get on forums like these and call them out for what they say? Why do you just let it pass and/or defend it when others, like myself, call attention to it?

Don't get me wrong here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, beliefs, ideas and dreams. Everyone is not entitled to their own facts. It is a FACT that there is a segment of contributors on this blog who's sole dislike of the president is based upon the fact that he "isn't the same skin color as the rest of the men who grace the currency of America". It's also a fact that this segment has become more vocal over the past year, and too many times we have let them control the conversation.

President Obama is a Democrat. He's not a Far Left Democrat but he is a Left of Center Democrat. I too am a Democrat. Do I agree with everything he's done? Absolutely not. Then again, I didn't agree with everything Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 did either.

If we expect to survive as the United States of America, then we must be willing to vocally challenge those who would seek to change the very basis upon which this country was started. That being Freedom from Oppression, in all forms. We have serious problems in our country. Problems that took years to develop and will take years to recover from. But we cannot and shall not allow the bigots, haters and fear-mongers (better known as extremist) to define the conversation. There is way too much at stake.

If you've got a problem with policy, then make your case based upon policy. As any good boss will tell his/her people; Don't just come to me with a complaint or problem. Make sure you also have a rational solution as well. Translation, just don't complain about where we are today. Offer a solution that is rational as well as doable.

Just my $0.02.

Just the Facts. Your statement is another distortion of the whole picture. You can keep your insurance coverage but the President cannot control if employers decide to change what you have. That is nothing new, they change coverage all the time, they switch companies. As long as you or your employer make no changes to the coverage you have, you have the same coverage you've always had. Don't blame Pres Obama for what individuals or corporations do.

This is the problem with the TEA party TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY..they don't understand that they are enjoying right now under President Obama's policies some of the lowest tax rates in history, but yet they rail against TAXES! The President hadn't been in office a month and the mantra from conservatives was " I Hope He FAILS" this was said at a CPAC dinner by Rush Limbaugh. To insist that its his policies that you are against is just an after thought, it has to be something else that gets the Right so riled up! Is it race? I think that is part of it, not everyone, but enough to fuel some of the current anger! Misinformation is another reason, exaggeration of flaws in policies making them sound like the sky is falling leads to this crazy anger especially since there is already a negative view of the administration. People on the left and the right will regurgitate talking points from their favorite sources of information..ie talk radio...fox news..msnbc...internet emails and blogs. The misinformation age.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. voltaire

These tea bagger truly are an amazing dichotomy aren't they?

And I agree NewDay about the Beckerhead teabaggers descending on the Lincoln Memorial - showing the entire country that they are about nothing but HATE!

As so far that's the only message they've been able to get across... not sure how you promote peace & tolerance on the anniversary of Dr. Kings historic speech and NOT invite a single BLACK speaker... *shakes head*

You get Beck - Bachmann & Palin together and it's nothing more than a recipe for disaster! Just look at the audience they draw!

Which is why I am glad that they cannot resist a stage or a microphone. Everyone needs to see what these people are about.

Sorry to disappoint some of you. MLK's neice will be at the rally on 8/28. You see, she understands the true purpose of the rally; she listened and didn't make assumptions. She said her uncle would embrace the notion of striving for personal excellence as a way to bring exceptionalism back to the country.

BTW, Palin will do an introduction; she is not giving a speech.

Slight correction Feisty. Dr. King's neice Alveda King is scheduled to speak at the Rally for Beckistan. Beck and the rest of the right use her to claim that the message of MLK is really Conservative but has been subverted by the left...when they aren't trying to make a case that King was a Marxist. She's not tight with her family and certainly her views don't have much in common with her Uncle.

http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2010/08/martin-luther-kings-crazy-ass-niece-and-other-gay-marriage-tidbits/

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/dr-kings-niece-calls-gay-marriage-genocide-video.php

http://www.lifenews.com/nat4566.html

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=68669

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/23/alveda-king-speaks-on-whether-her-uncle-martin-luther-king-jr-would-stand-with-glenn-beck-or-naacp-on-aug-28/

Thanks for the correction John!

I heard Dr. King's son last night and thought it odd that he wasn't invited...

Bottom line is... it's still going to show ALL of America what the tea bagger agenda is and I believe the majority of Americans are NOT going to like what they see...

Feisty Redhead---the TEA PARTY is about hate??? Wow, you really have been drinking that Obama kool-aid! It's about Obama's agenda and his policies that are ruining this country! It's about the debt he has propelled this country in to. Hate??? You are so off base!

Good morning Feisty:

Got this from another thread.

FOX News, right-wing publications and AM talk radio actively created an opposing party dedicated to attacking a newly elected President. And the man that won was the first African American elected to our country's highest office. That was unprecedented in American history. Never before have media outlets worked in conjunction to whip up an intense hatred for an incoming administration even before they took office.

A new study done by Democracy Corp reveals, as we did, that the Tea Parties are nothing more than an extension of the conservative movement, a chance for the Republican Party to rebrand itself in the right-wing populist mold. They are not just some all-American/grassroots congregation of dissatisfied people, as they like to portray themselves.

• 86 percent of Tea Party supporters and activists identify with or lean to the Republican Party.
• 79 percent identify as conservatives.

Poll after poll tells us the same thing, so I wish the media would just get with it already and stop making them into something they are not. If they need any more convincing, the study also reveals that Tea Partiers overwhelmingly believe President Obama is a socialist.

There you go again Retired bringing up them pesky facts! lol

Again I have to ask where they fear mongering hateful tea baggers where when there was a white man in the WH (with an IQ equal to a turnip) running up the Chinese VISA card... *crickets*

Thanks! Care for a cup of kool-aide? I been told that HATE-OR-AID leaves you with a wicked hangover - which must be true... just take a look at all the nasty trolls around here today! ;0)

Feisty,

Yep, somebody left the dam@ door open again and let the flies in. They do appear to come out in droves do they not? Still no new ideas just the same old talking points (copied more than once) saying how great the 8 years under Bush's rule was.

Record deficits, financial ruin, 2 unfunded wars, 2 unfunded tax cuts, unfunded prescription drug plan, reduced regulations for Big Business and Wall Street. Virtually filibustering every bill President Obama puts forth to help America out of this Republican initiated mess.

I can't wait until November to vote NO to the republican agenda of voodoo economics and trickle down theories tht have been proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they do not work.

US Navy Ret.,

Just had a thought about FOX, could be a bumper sticker

FOX= Full Of Xcrement, What do you think?

That is funny. where can I buy one??

See, these Baggers are going to end up really hurting the Republicians even more than Bush. Watch. America has proven time and time again, that if a group of people, who's values are too extreme, they will be called out on it and basically cast out of the system. With the Repubs going more and more right, they will start to ostricize even more of their center-right voters and will lose a lotta votes. All a matter of time until this comes back around and hits the Repubs in the face. Hard.

US Navy Ret. As far as I know it doesn't exist, only in my mind, but I think it's pretty good, I'd think someone with a graphic arts background could make one.

I posted this one before about 2-3 weeks ago

Dems=Main Street

GOP=Mean Street I challenged others to post some but haven't seen to many.

I say we get some loony leftie in a cab in NYC, chat him up a littel, then.............SLASH THE HELLOUT OF HIM WITH A KNIFE!

St. Nicholas Orthodox church was the ONLY religious building destoryed on 9/11. They have been locked, since then, in a battle of red tape with the Port of Authority, and still have not been given permission to rebuild.

Now, consider this: New York has financial disclosure laws on the books that PRE-DATE 9/11, enacted due to the fact that there was a history of mob money involved in construction. The United States, under Bill Clinton, adopted laws that required the disclosure of the origin of any sum in excess of $10,000-this was an attempt to control money laundering by drug dealers. This statute was strengthened by the Patriot Act-there is no one on this board who has gotten a mortgage in the last 15 years who has not fulfilled the requirement of disclosing the origin of the funds.

Park51, the working name of the Cordoba group, has NEVER disclosed the origin of the $25million used to purchase the site, violating city, state, and federal laws.

The City Council ignored this, and granted permission to build the mosque anyway.

Why? No one of the city council will answer that direct question. Certainly that arrogant little twit Bloomberg will not answer it-this is, after all, the same man and the same city council that waived existing law in order for him to get a third term.

It seems that Bloomberg and the city council only pay attention to the laws they like, and ignore those pesky laws that thwart their plans.

NOOoooooo Jo

It seems that Bloomberg and the city council only pay attention to the laws they like, and ignore those pesky laws that thwart their plans.

_____________________________________________________

You are aware those pesky little plans have everything to do with the 1st something that gets in the way of your frequent, so ugly, hyperbole.

cabbie who was attacked got into an argument with his passenger, yes; the cabbie was AGAINST the mosque being built so close to Ground Zero, his passenger was defending building it there. On top of that, the passenger, who was drunk, attacked the cabbie because, after accusing the cabbie of being biased against Islam, the cabbie revealed that he was Islamic, and the passenger became irate when his fundamental belief was violated.

Read the New York Post for the full story?

__________________________________________

Wow, the New York Post, another Rupert Murdoch "RAG" in which the Saudis are the largest shareholder in News Corp., the parent company of Fox News, which, btw, has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes linked to the Imam planning to build a Muslim community center and mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan.

Oh, I get it. An argument gives the veteran who served in Afghanistan the the justifiable reason to slice and dice a Muslim.

NO, Jo, it doesn't. The reason is the violent Rhetoric coming from the hate mongers on the right. You guys can keep it up and you're really gonna have a lot of blood on your hands.

PHN please explain how Bush was handed a balanced budget and Bush handed Obama a country heavy in debt if Obama polices is the one that is ruining this country and it's about the debt? Who's kool-aid have you been drinking? By your logic if the Republican policies were so great and the country was in good shape and not in debt then please explain the following:

1) How were both wars paid for (which occured during a Republican control Congress and White House)?

2) How were the Bush tax cuts paid for (which was pass by a Republican control Congress and White House)? As a matter of fact the Republican Party is pushing to extend those tax cuts how are they to be paid for?

3) How was Medicare Part D paid for (which was passed by a Republican control Congress and White House)?

4) The Iraq Embassy how was that budget for (which is being charged to the American tax payer by a Republican control Congress and White House)?

All of that occured under a Republican White House and Congress who spent money as drunken sailors, however they left this country in great shape and "THIS" President has spent all the money. By your logic Republicans showed "Great Fiscal Constraints" under their control for 8yrs and lets not even mention the massive drop in the financial markets before Bush left the White House. The Republicans did a hellva job keeping the country's books in order prior to this President taking office.

Great post, CU Farley. This whole idea of an anti-Muslim backlash is supposedly proven by one dumb kid stabbing a cab driver, and the posters on here talking about how "intolerant" Americans are is certainly evidenced by their intolerance of people who have differing opinions from their own. It truly is remarkable that so many posters on here can spew hateful, intolerant words toward members of the Tea Party and the Republican party while at the same time chastising people who happen to differ in their opinion on the WTC mosque for their supposed intolerance.

Must be lonely Grimey.... I keep telling you to come on over to our side!

Our tent is plenty big enough and maybe you can teach us a thing or two about fiscal conservatism...

We'll leave the 'light' on! ;0)

Frank: You win the prize as the wisest Republican I know. I think your assessment that the most conservative candidate works in Utah, Wyoming, Alabama, but it's not a great strategy in Nevada, Colorado, Florida is absolutely spot on. Have a good day my friend.

Grimey--see my comments below-don't know why they posted there but they are a response to your post.

I think Maine can be used as a case in point. Let's say next time Sens. Snowe or Collins are up for re-election, we jetison them for a "Tea Party" conservative. Guess what....the Dems win the seat and gain a seat in the Senate. OK, sure, the Maine Sens may "only" vote with the GOP leadership 75% of the time, but guess what...their Dem replacements will vote with GOP leadership maybe 10% of the time.

I said before that one of the smartest things that the Dems did was nominate more conservative Dems in redder states. Examples include Jim Webb in Virginia and Tester (I think it's Jon) in Montana. Dennis Kucinich types might be more liberal, but in no way would they win in states like Virginia and Montana.

Here's another thought that I'd be interested in hearing some responses. Has the Democratic Party shifted further left in the last year and a half. My inclination is to say that yes, they have, but perhaps not as far as the GOP has shifted right. I say that based mostly on candidate selection in 2010.

Feisty...I'm not leaving the GOP yet, but depending on how things go in the future, a new home in Independent-ville could be waiting for me. Appreciate the light being left on though!! ;-)

Frank: I think you are correct that the Democratic Party has shifted further to the left, but not as far as the Republicans have moved right. That might explain some of the bipartisan behavior from both sides. I might add that the Republicans are missing a golden opportunity by not talking about the economy and jobs. Instead, they are acting like Democrats and squabbling among themselves.

In the long run, it will be the independent, moderate Americans who will decide elections. Fortunately more Americans are not political junkies, but are enjoying their family, watching baseball games, inviting neighbors over for hambergers. People will start paying attention in about...45 days.

Grimey--I'm new to the Democratic party but I don't sense a shift to the left. In fact I think some Democrats are a little aggravated that President Obama has not gone as far with certain policies as they would like.

When I was where you are now with the Republican party, I gave some thought to being an independent but ultimately decided that I wanted to be able to have a vote that counted in primaries (in Pa. you can only vote in your party's primary) so I made the big switch. It was a very difficult decision to make but one that I've been at peace with.

Good Morning Frank, Yes you should be alarmed at this rightways motion, for any moderate in Florida it is a problem how you will vote in November. I was deeply saddened that Rick Scott made it on Tuesday, this is not good for Florida Frank, no matter which side of the aisle one sits on.

Frank, I think because the GOP (TeaPartiers) have moved hard right it just makes the Dems and anything they do appear further left.

The Dems will always lean towards helping the working people and several years ago we had Repubs who voted to help those most vunerable (Lincoln Chafee, RI) comes to mind. Now, if there are any left in Congress they toe the party line or lose in a primary to a hard right candidate and that in my opinion smacks of some kind of 'ism'.

Grimey said: "I think Maine can be used as a case in point. Let's say next time Sens. Snowe or Collins are up for re-election, we jetison them for a "Tea Party" conservative."

Absolutely correct. I'm a lifelong Democrat who has voted for Olympia Snowe (R). She won re-election with something like 75% of the vote in 08 when Maine also went for Obama. Maine is a purple state, we have two Republican senators and two Democratic Representatives. At one time, we elected an Independent governor in the mode of a Tea Partier who was a disaster. It took some time to recover from that experiment in "small government," believe me. I have nothing against the Tea Partiers in my state, I think they add alot to the discussion, but we'll see if they can win here. The Republicans nominated a Tea Partier, Paul Le Page, for governor this year. Immediately, a strong Independent joined the race as an alternative to the Democrat and LePage, so we'll see who wins.

Grimey. Good post. It is sad to watch the GOP shift even further right. I was a republican until Ronald Reagan because I watched what he actually did rather than what he said--I discovered that tax cuts, small government and fiscal responsibility were pretty words used to win but not followed. The last fiscally conservative republican was Gerald Ford. The rest have promised all three but only cut taxes. Democrats are not perfect and do not have all the answers. Until Reagan--both parties balanced each other. Democrats created the programs to help Americans and republicans insured they were properly financed. The compromises by both parties gave us pretty good legislation that benefited everyone not just a select few.

Jody, Iowa

I voted for Gerald Ford in the first election I was eligible to. He was the last "nice guy" Republican to run for President, as far as I'm concerned. My parents were Republicans, and I started out that way, but Watergate, Vietnam, and Reaganomics pushed me towards the Democratic Party. I can only think that the continued far right turn, on top of Bush unpopular administrations, will turn another generation of young people away from the GOP. The Republicans may win in 2010 midterms, but lose a generation.

Jody: As always a thoughtful, reasoned post. I think you are corrent. In 2012 the Democrats will regain what they may lose on 2010.

Great post, Jody. The other thing that the Republicans seem to be doing is alienating the Hispanic voters, who are the fastest-growing segment of the voting population. Seems to me that their emphasis on the short-term and the growing influence of folks like Limbaugh and the people at Fox who care more about ratings and profit than about the actual governance of our cocountry will end up hurting them in the long run.

"Democrats once shifted far left, it appeared to work for one election cycle but the next one was a disaster."

2006 to 2008 to 2010 and beyond??

Ron:

Great posts today. I think you are correct about 2012. If the republicans (ie Tea Party) do win in November it will be more of the same old rhetoric and bad policy that we had before. The American people will see that error of their ways and 2012 will be a blood bath. Right now the middle class is hurting and they are angry and frustrated. This leads to irrational choices. No matter who wins in November I do not see the political environment changing much unless those elected are more moderate and willing to work for all people. If they are far right wingers it will be more of the same and nothing gets done. The case then may be made that they were not the solution they claimed they would be.

Joe funny man, nice try. It is 1982 and 1984. Contrary to the right's insistance, President Obama is a centrist with some progressive beliefs and some conservative beliefs. Odd, that is exactly the make-up of most of American citizens, we are progressive on many social issues and yet conservative on financial ones.

Jody, Iowa - President Obama is a centrist with some progressive beliefs and some conservative beliefs

I really need to remove the wheels off my chair. I see lines like this and the chair always shoots out from under me as I bowl over in laughter.

John, Tucson AZ how conservative was George Bush and the Republican Party was those 8yrs again? Now there's a hysterical laugh!

Ginger: I think Convential Wisom is wrong about half the time. Much of CW comes from inside the Washington beltway and pundits listen to each other, rather than to Americans on Main Street.

I think the problem with figuring out the conventional wisdom in a 24/7 cable cycle is that the media has to have a story to tell every day with a theme and a narrative and sometimes it just isn't clear in the moment what the big picture will be in the long run.

So true about the CW. I think it's actually wrong more than half the time, but dont' have any statistics to back me up. Remember, the rest of us had "numbers" but Karl Rove had "THE numbers" http://www.pollster.com/blogs/karl_roves_math.php . Apparently his numbers were wrong.

Hi Ginger, great insightful post. You ask the same question I have of my Repub friends, are you Ok with the lies and the hypocrisy, do you mind that your interests are not addressed? Never yet have I got a straighforward answer. It is hard for some people to let go of old habits even if they are not good for them.

Hi GBM!! Thanks for the kind words. I, too, have a few Repub friends (I'm the misfit) and I have to tell ya, for the most part they are closed minded, refuse to consider other points of view and will work against their own best interests... that is if they're poor-I have relatives in that category). And if they're rich, they exploit those in the first category. Without a blink of an eye. Amazing.

If presented with a fact, there is always a "Yes, but..." flowing out of their mouths. OR some excuse "I'm not a racist, BUT..." sort of statement. They believe in shades of gray when it suits their purposes and behaviors and black and white for everyone else.

It's one thing to crunch numbers and debate economics--it's another to stand upon the "high ground" of moral superiority and dictate to the rest of the world about the "speck" in their brother's eye while ignoring the BEAMS in their own eyes and preach hate under the guise of peace.

For them it's ok to rail about dishonest politicians and then elect a Rick Scott???? To trumpet the Constitution, but demand changes (apparently at the point of a gun (Sharon Angle, anyone?)

It never ceases to amaze me.

Conventional wisdom said Barack Obama could never win the primary let alone the election!

Ginger...I am definitely not a person who votes the party line. No way, no how was I voting for Katherine Harris for Senate a few years ago, so I voted for Bill Nelson. I will admit to voting for more GOPers than Dems though. I am struggling mightily with my decision on who to vote for in the Senate race down here.

Good post though!

I'm looking forward to that show about the spies!

Me too Steeler Fan . . . that and Hawaii 5-0!

Nash and Steeler

I'm looking forward to the new series "The Event" this fall.

The commercials for that do look interesting Beverly . . . I'll add that to the list!

(P.S. The name of the spy show is "Undercovers")

Well let's see nashville fan...maybe the free health care for life (which is not Obamacare), not to mention all the other "perks" they will receive forever????

That was the best spin job I have seen in a long time Bill . . . great work!

I confess I didn't read it all . . . as I have heard it all before . . . but the part I got through was sufficiently wordy as to make you seem as if you know what you are talking about . . . which I am sure is your intent! :o)

Alas, I will go with the simpler evidence that the economy was plunging upon President Obama's inauguration, and it isn't now, based in large part on the stimulus and other targeted efforts by the Obama Administration to provide a safety net for folks who were the "collateral damage" of the games many decided to play with our future.

So the house has not been rebuilt, but it is also no longer on fire, which is progress by any standard.

Bill,

Any economists or mathematician can create a model that yields different results from another model. You can pit one against another and make a point that favors your opinion. You cad include or exclude various data (current and historical) to make your model more realistic, more accurate in your opinion.

I, in no way, claim your conclusion is wrong. It provides a lot of good information but in the end it boils down to an opinion.

And all the while NF feeds us bs, and tells us it's filet mignon.

You are correct NF, don't read the details of what Bill reported, it would just go against your "thinking" and challenge all your biases.

You liberals have your heads buried in the sand, or elsewhere, and you grasping at anything that supports your view the economy is better. It's not better, and in fact is worse then it was a year ago. And day in and day out we get this sorry butt excuses and hand-waving from the left "The stimulus wasn't big enough", "Can't fix what happened in 8 years in 20 months", "It's Bush's fault", "It's businesses fault", It's someone else's fault". Please, Lefties, stop with the incessant whining. Failure to achieve your goals through massive spending should not be followed with more massive spending. You on the Left just cannot comprehend that fact.

Thank goodness for elections.

Alas, JoAnna, I am not "feeding" you anything . . . you come to me! :o)

You cannot refute the indisputable fact that the economy NOW is better than it was THEN.

The policy of deregulating everything and allowing all types of questionable business practices destroyed the WORLD economy. What is disputable about that?

We were losing a quarter of a million jobs a month and now we are not . . . what is disputable about that?

The stockmarket was approaching 6000 points and now its not . . . what is disputable about that?

Tax cuts combined with out of control war spending led us to massive deficits . . . what is disputable about that?

President Bush asked the American people to bail out the financial industry before it collapsed under the weight of its own corruption and hubris . . . what is disputable about that?

You want to argue about something, but not about what is relevant.

Billy boy:

It took W 8 years to wreck the good economy that he inherited, So it is no wonder that Obama has not fixed it in 1 1/2 years. If tax cuts worked to provide jobs, why are we not at full employment right now? Hell, if tax cuts worked we would need a ton more illegal immigrants to fill the jobs going begging!

Wall Street Opens Higher on Jobless Report

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/business/27markets.html

:o)

(Thought I should share this here as well . . . Bill and JoAnna just love to see our economy showing signs of life!)

Dennis -- thanks for reading. This board is full of opinions every day, including mine. Many of us try to support those opinions with relevant links. Others don't bother and instead present their views as self evident truth. I'll leave it to the readers to decide which approach is more credible.

I can't help but laugh Bill . . . now "links" are important . . . I have been saying that for almost three years now . . . nice to see that you agree . . . talk to JoAnna, will ya? :o)

Bill

As always, great job! I for one appreciate it.

Nashville_fan: (Thought I should share this here as well . . . Bill and JoAnna just love to see our economy showing signs of life!)

Apparently NF missed the previous few sessions on a Wall Street were the market was losing 100 points off the DOW each day. Nashville, you are the absolute epitome of the Obama kool-aide drinker. You see the speck of good news and ignore the sea of bad news of what a failure Obama has become. At least try to be fair and balanced Nash.

JoAnna -- besides that, this line in my post incorporated this morning's news about the drop in unemployemnt claims:

"Whether it's the rising level of unemployment claims (four times in the last five weeks)..."

Unemployment claims had risen for four weeks in a row, today they dropped. Apparently not only do we need to point out these details, we actually need to mention that one data point from today doesn't change the trend.

Sheesh.

Bill and JoAnna:

I am providing balance . . . to your ceaseless whining and complaining! There is no need of more folks to share bad news . . . seems like you would be happy when things go well . . . wonder why that is such a problem for you two?

Oh well, whatever floats your boats work for me . . . you look for dark clouds and I'll look for silver linings . . . can't quite figure out why what I believe matters so much to you anyway . . . I mean, basically, I call 'em like I see 'em . . . and I see a whole lot of double talk and spin attempting to saddle the Obama Administration with the sins of the "faux conservative" movement.

President Obama . . . I just love the ring of that . . . don't you?

Nashville_fan:

Bill and JoAnna:

I am providing balance . . . .

Nash, you should do stand up comedy.

Glad we found SOMETHING in this world that can make you smile JoAnna . . . Hallelujah! ;o)

Pat: You are brave taking on such a topic. They may not be mentally ill from a psychiatric point of view....but they definitely have their own mind-set. I'm not yet bold enough to go there, but I'm pleased you brought it to the table.

Ron, they're crazy. Every single one of them. They are haters. They are war mongers. They are the phoniest bunch of Christians I have ever seen in my lifetime, and I've seen all of them through the years. Since I was a child. They are where they are because the right owns most of the air waves and most of the pundits give them credibility.

Provocative points, Pat. The underlying racial/ethnic anger is very scary to me and I think it is a factor in everything they do since the election of President Obama.

Pat, I think the stress has finally affected your mind. I read through your incoherent post, and could not make sense of it.

Who is talking about the death penalty? I haven't heard a word about it this cycle-and, believe me, I would have paid attention. I have what is called a consistent pro-life philosophy-I'm against abortion AND the death penalty. Actually, I haven't heard a word about either this cycle.

There is a report out today debunking Obama's claim that everybody gets to keep the health insurance they are happy with-a research and analysis company headed by a health care analyst in the CLINTON administration has revealed that HCR will FORCE almost 3 million seniors OUT of their prescription plans and into new ones. Hmmm-

and, the CBO, looking at REAL numbers, instead of the fantasy numbers they were looking at before, concludes that, yes indeedy, HCR will cost billions more than advertised, (which is why Democrats are being advised NOT to say it will decrease costs and the deficit-turns out, to nobody with an active brain's surprise, Obama was lying when he said it did).

Only republicans are after power? Democrats don't want power? They accept it, grudgingly, as the cost of a career in politics? You are joking, surely?

The mid-terms are going to be extremely bad for Democrats, and good for fiscally conservative republicans. I stay out of others religious lives-like their sex lives, I consider it NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

You might try that, sometime.

The piece that I don't understand is the CONSTANT lying by people who claim to be moral and ethical. If Conservatives had ideas that they people would actually buy they'd stand proudly next to them and talk about them. Instead it's all vague, all "don't worry, we'll work it out", heavy on theoretical principles, light on details. Like budgets without numbers for example. To me it smells of desperation, throwing all of one's resources against the opposition, hoping to breach their line before the army breaks ranks and flees in defeat instead.

Pat: An interesting thesis, but I'm not sure it's fair to equate a susceptibility to suggestion with outright mental illness. My big problem with your post is that in a way you're implying only people who hold liberal viewpoints are psychologically stable, and that sort of knee-jerk rationale seems as dangerous as the very thing you're decrying.

There are a host of factors that go into the why behind a person's formulation of, and adherence to, their opinions. We're all by-products of our upbringings and environment, education, internal inclinations and so on. Your argument appears oblivious to the impact these things have on someone's decision-making process; would you, for example, paint all conservatives as degenerates were you among their number? Could you say there's some inner guiding light processing forth from a perfect balance of your particular brain chemistry that enables you to see the apparent rightness of leftist views?

You make a claim that conservatives who refute evidence contrary to their opinion are a prime example of the supposed mental malady they're afflicted with, yet you make no mention that a great many rank-and-file liberals will do the same. I think the truer statement is that the kind of people you're discussing (regardless of which side of the fence they're on) remain resolute and stalwart in their beliefs because they've come to associate being party-line with a fundamental definition of not only who but what they are.

Look at it from this angle: it's a point of pride; it's a matter of community and family ties. In debating and discussing their views with them - and remember, I'm talking about both hard-line liberals and conservatives here - I think they're essentially made to feel as though they as people are being deconstructed, that an integral element of their being is enduring a direct assault and the threat of dismemberment. To put it in simpler terms: corner an animal, any animal, and you trigger the fight-or-flight response.

Just a thought.

Wow Pat, that's quite a viscious screed. How can such a nice person write such mean material?

Speaking for myself, I don't hate anybody. And I'm also a conservative. Therefore, I take personal umbrage at your sweeping suggestion that since I'm a conservative I must also be mentally unbalanced.

Besides that I like baseball. And I know you like baseball (even though being a Red Sox fan shows a serious character flaw). So how is it possible that such a presumably unbalanced person such as myself could share this particular passion with a person with your views?

I'm gonna tell ya why. Because despite the deep and obvious differences in our respective points of view, we share a very strong common bond: we're both Americans. And as every true American knows, baseball is our national pastime.

That's my clumsy way of trying to say the ties that bind us just might be stronger than the differences that separate us. Folks from both sides come to this board every day to argue passionately for their point of view. And the reason we come and the reason we argue with such vigor is because both sides share a deep appreciation for the country we live in and we want our country to flourish and prosper. The fact that we may have different ideas on how best to make that happen doesn't mean we don't share and celebrate the concept of being an American.

So I would encourage you to make nice because that's my impression of the kind of person you are. And leave the mean spirited stuff to the folks around here that no one pays any attention to.

P.S. Fair warning, on Monday I'll be doing a post on Social Security that will be sure to p*ss off you and your buds. But if the Red Sox and the Orioles win that night, all will be right with the world. And we'll share a special joy that -- at least for a while -- will overshadow our sharp differences.

Right on, Anna Molly. Political courage seems to be in short supply these days.

Anna Molly: Love your last line, "Because in the end, nobody ever wins by selling out." I may want to use that line myself some day.

Anna Molly: The right choices were made by Murkowski and Crist, . . , elected to remain true to themselves and their principles.

What is Crist today? A Republican? A Democrat? An Independent? A Conservtive? A Liberal? He changes so often, it's hard to keep track.

Charlie Crist on MTP: "I'm running as a Republican. Period!"

Sure Charlie, what ever you say. Nice to see you're "true to yourself and your principles".

Maybe Charlie Crist meant that he's running as a true Republican. Because generally, Republicans ain't what they used to be, JoAnna.

Just look in your own mirror and maybe you'll see what I mean.

Kind of like Bart Stupac, right, Anna? I wonder what Obama threatened him with to get him to change his vote on HCR. I wonder how he sleeps nights, actually. Talk about selling your soul!

I am all for people remaining true to their principles, but when you find that your principles are unpopular with the electorate, you have a choice to make. I don't know about Murkowski, but to use Charlie Crist as an example of truth and honor is like, well using Joe Biden as an example of truth and honor.

Well, maybe that's unfair-Crist has never been proven a plagiarist, twice. He is a liar, though, and something of a thief. He did, after all, swear up and down that he would return campaign donations to those who wanted them back when he declared that, after swearing he would not, he was running as an independent. I guess he changed his mind when his fundraising was, well, less than successful.

I wonder how much pressure from the White House Kendrick Meek is under to withdraw now that he has won the primary?

Cause, after all, Obama is filled with the same level of truth and honor as Crist.

Maybe Charlie Crist meant that he's running as a true Republican. Because generally, Republicans ain't what they used to be, JoAnna.

Ronald Reagan would be deemed "Not Conservative Enough" and branded as a RINO by today's standards.

...and don't even ask about Abraham Lincoln. No, "The Party Of Lincoln" has become "The Party of Nixon".

Anna Molly: Maybe Charlie Crist meant that he's running as a true Republican. Because generally, Republicans ain't what they used to be, JoAnna.

Please define what a"True Republican" is.

When you're done with that, define what a "True Democrat" is.

Many thanks and I look forward to your response.

Thanks for your interest, but I wouldn't hold my breath, JoAnna. Both of those terms have actually lost most of their meaning ... at least to me. I suspect Crist probably just meant he was running according to what he believed a republican to be.

no jo, no bo, nj: I wonder how much pressure from the White House Kendrick Meek is under to withdraw now that he has won the primary?

Obama does have that penchant for asking Democrats he needs to throw under the bus to step down. NY Gov. Paterson and Rep. Rangel come to mind. Meeks won't be asked to withdraw, that looks way too bad, but he will be offered a position in the Obama administration just to lay low during the election season.

No Joe ~ I'm probably going to surprise you here by admitting that I really don't know enough about it to respond to your specific points about either Biden or Crist. So, game, set, and match to you.

I guess I was just using the whole thing as a metaphorical vehicle for my own belief that no one profits -- at least in term of their own souls -- by selling out.

I had a gateway timeout, oddly enough, but I meant to edit that last comment by adding that I don't approve of any politician -- including President Obama -- using "threats" to force someone to compromise their own beliefs. But maybe Stupac shouldn't have left himself open to threats, if that is in fact the case.

Anna Molly: Thanks for your interest, but I wouldn't hold my breath, JoAnna. Both of those terms have actually lost most of their meaning ... at least to me. I suspect Crist probably just meant he was running according to what he believed a republican to be

Then tell us all this: Do you trust Crist? Do you think his belief of what he thought a Republican to be changed from the time he said "I'm running as a Republican. Period" to the time he jumped the Republican ship? Or do you think he just read the polls?

I think the continued abuse of moderate Republicans wore on him and he decided the only way to salvage a center right viewpoint was to run as an Independent.

Dumb is as dumb does JoAnna. Just support someone because they have an R in front of their name regardless of how dumb they are. And stop supporting someone because they remove the R from in front of their name. Typical teabagging republican candidate dumb.

Thanks for sharing this Pat . . . so hard to find encouraging news in the sewer of irrelevant BS that we have to wade through daily.

I know Nashville_fan, I know. We have to do it. President Obama can't win. If he's out there too much, they say he shouldn't be like the right wing, he should act like a leader. If he keeps quiet, they call him weak, "too cool", etc. Where is the sanity in this country other than a very few? And I mean, VERY FEW. I didn't realize how far this "mob mentality" had gone until recently while listening to so-called mainstream media type folks on tv saying the most ridiculous high school level stuff imaginable. It's almost as if they've crossed over to gossip columnists instead of journalists. It is not the President who is behaving like the right, it is the supposed mainstream media who is.

You only printed part of the article. The rest of is lays out, pretty clearly, that the stimulous is to be used as the back door way to push Obama's radical agenda.

Not to worry, America. When the republicans take back the House, the rest of the stim funds go back into the treasury.

no joe, no bo, nj

You only printed part of the article. The rest of is lays out, pretty clearly, that the stimulous is to be used as the back door way to push Obama's radical agenda.

Well I read the whole article njnb. I would really like you to print out, point out or somehow show me where there is a radical agenda.

Sustainable, renewable energy. New venture capitalism, not this corporate theology capitalism we've had for the past 10 years. That is not radical, that is what will bring America back to the power she has always been.

Wall Street Opens Higher on Jobless Report

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/business/27markets.html

:o)

Thanks Pat

I always appreciate you pointing out the facts and with the link as proof rather that lyimg random, fanatical, talking points as some righties do. How the stimulus has/is changing America is so very pertinent to our future just like FDR's "New Deal". As I pointed out earlier it was the "New Deal" that kept older members in my family from going under. I remember being told how I was almost born in Nevada because my since father was in the Service, my grandfather would travel all over the US from the south to take whatever work he could find.

The pride I get from my 8 yr old grandson is so overwhelming; now should I live long enough, I will be able to add this story of how the President is/ will transform the nation into the future instead of living the past with the old, outdated sewers, sidewalk, bridges, coal mines, and energy that the GOP wants.

A little of topic, I was reading a piece on Marc Ambinder's blog about Ken Mehlman. I know many in the LBGT community are angry at him. Reading it gave me some hope, he said he would push for DADT and DOMA as well as energy.

Thanks Beverly. I remember people on the left, right and center talking about President Obama not doing anything just months after his inaugeration. The future doesn't happen over nite. It takes years to sit down, plan it out, etc. I truly truly wish some of these pundits would go into government and see if they can change the system from within if they are that disappointed in this President. Anybody can complain. People like that are a dime a dozen. Yet most of these so-called experts don't want to take the risk of working from within. It's easier to just shout and be negative.

They might actually be able to make a difference if they did work within. I would like to see more of them move off the sidelines and join the game. The more thinking thoughtful minds, the better. In the meantime, President Obama is going to get stronger and stronger as the years go by. You just wait and see.

Pat, correction.....the tax changes are at the benefit of 95 % of FAMILY tax payers (check the wording for yourself)...the US tax system continues with the outdated (IMO) process of providing preferential tax treatment for married people (even without kids). After all, who is going to listen to single people...the cost is spread to us in health care costs to.

But I really enjoyed buying a new house, and not getting the tax credit, and my coworker (same wage but married without kids) gets the full one. And the 150 K in local re taxes in the last 20 years...I enjoy seeing the announcements of the new school and stadium, and the excellent music, thearte and class trips around the US...I am so happy parents can spread their costs to me.

Being an Environmental and Sustainability person, I will say some of the stimulus items you mention will be short lived (without long term value)...I see the EPA grants emails every day, and they are giving money for soft programs...and funding programs like carbon capture (it will take an extra 20 % energy, just to do the capture...so if implemented...our coal facilities now use 120 % of the energy the did before....that is good ??) My opinion...billions will go into demonstration projects that will never be used....except in a Road Runner cartoon...beep beep.

Just saying...world of dfference between wanting nice outcomes, and actually getting them. My taxes will go up for health care, my level of health care will go down (because the more are in the program)...ask any doctor you know...and I am ok with that...just don't tell us we are getting more for less..that is insulting. Computers don't save money overall...I work in industry, what computers do is transfer wages from those they make more efficient...to the new IT staff that supports the new computers systems.

I am for trying changes, I am against misleading people saying improvements will occur...they likely...will not.

Computers don't save money overall...I work in industry, what computers do is transfer wages from those they make more efficient...to the new IT staff that supports the new computers systems.

If this statement were true, the computer industry would not have grown so rapidly.

If the Tea Party truly wants less government spending and involvement in people's lives, then they should all surrender their Social Security and Medicare benefts........but they won't because they are hypocrites.

Social Security has already been "messed with". If a company or corporation oout there

decided to "comingle" their retirement/pension plan with their operating budgets like the

Federal government has already done with Social Security, then you would see torches

and pitchforks. In fact, that would be Enronesque illegal would it not? How come the members

of Congress are't covered by it?

Roger,

Talk poorly all you want but calling them baggers and poking fun hasn't done a thing but encourage them. If the lib media had brains they would shut up and hope the movement just died.

Their problem is that their "most trusted news source" is a comedian. Jon Stewart is the impetus keeping the Tea Party in the liberal mindset.

i do watch glen beck for comedy purpose only. i actually used to watch him b/c he actually made sense and talked facts. then all of a suddon he realized if he acts a complete fool he get's more ratings and more money. now he is laughable and the fact that you can watch and take anything he says seriously tells me alot about you.

www.thedailyfringe.com

Good point gia. Beck has changed over time, looking for a "character" to play that will capture the largest audience possible. The former "regular guy who just doesn't see things like they do in Washington" worked fairly well for him. Resurrecting the crazy ideas and ideology of the 1960s-70s John Birch Society gave him a substantial boost. Now he has this new "college professor" persona that has him really raking in the cash. It's too bad substantial numbers of people actually look to him in order to feed them information to back up their Conservative leanings. He responds by feeding them spin, fabrication, character assassination and outright lies. The damage he's doing in the process is incalculable. In the end his amoral personality will justify it by saying that he's "just an entertainer", but Beck knows just what he's doing. He just doesn't care.

Brian, have you got any proof of that promise for Beck to write a million dollar check? I'll bet Beck doesn't know he made that promise. And your definitely a teabagging republican, you nuts make me laugh when you try to say your not a teabagging republican.

I too used to watch Beck. In fact, I hate to admit it, but beck was the person who started me watching political commentary back when he was on CNN. He was talking about broken gevernment (GWB) and the deregulation of the markets which were causing 'robberbarons' (his words not mine) to rob us blind.

Then Barack won the nomination and this guy went absolutely postal. 3 weeks or so later he was on FOX

Hey Mo...other than the fact that he told the chairman of SOWF that he would on national television....no.

Wilfred:

Sounds like you get all of your news from CNN/MSNBC. Try watching something "Fair and balanced" and maybe you'll learn something.

Tea-Party folks generally want LIMITED government (and not this runaway spending that the liberals are guilty of). In case you haven't noticed, this deficit we're running is threatening to bankrupt us all. The fact is that spending under the Dems in 2010 has soared to $3.5 TRILLION dollars.

Of course, if you want, you can keep burying your head in the sand and continue believing in that "hope and change" BS that the socialist in the whitehouse keeps spouting

curious to know what you consider "fair and balanced"

to be honest there are NO fair and balanced news channels :)

Let's put up more qualified, deep thinking candidates like Sharron Angle. That should get this country back on the right track!

No, Dave, I got my info from friends who are big Tea Party supporters. They are very sincere in their beliefs but also very misguided. To them "limited government" means a government that does only what THEY want it to do. I suggest you get your head out of the sand.

wifred...that sounds silly. By silly I mean to think that any political organization of any size would have the agenda you mention. If you have any links by the TP saying this I would be interested. Else. simple logic says any organization will not attempt to screw (with) its own members interests.

That said, I don't think they have any clear plan but to critique other parties. The difference between second guessing and doing is night and day (as Obama is finding out...and I voted for him because I became disgusted with the bling based US culture...I would rather give my money to taxes (for programs of dubious purposes) than to watch the home flippin, short selling, hedge fund running, chardonay sippin, brie eaten, Hummer driving self absorbed folks that have been taking without giving back.

End of rant.

I wonder if you "Fair and balanced" Schtick was a ad for FOX news. The FOX news who recently donated 1,000,000.00 to the RGA? MSNBC gave equal contirbutions to both the DGA and RGA. Now that's what I call "Fair and balanced" Fox is more like "drunk and in the tank for....."

On what planet can FOX cling to the fair and balanced label anymore? And what type of logical sommersaults do you have to do to defend this false label?

You don't take Ric Flair seriously????......or American Idol????........what's wrong with you?

Or Joe Biden, Keith Olberman and Chris Mathews.