Ron Gret post this AM

Republicans want to hang the fact that the tone in Washington hasn't changed on President Obama, and campaigns "all that is left is to attack Republicans." Of course, they ignore the larger truth, which is that the toxic tone in DC is a direct result of Republicans' obstructionism and lack of any new ideas are the very real issues confronting this country. That's intellectually dishonest, and assumes Republicans shouldn't be attacked or that they don't deserve the criticism that comes their way. They deserve more criticism, not less.

The republicans continue to claim they are the party of the people but I am not buying their rhetoric. They claim to be for tax cuts to small business, lower deficits, more jobs and a better way of life for all. If I am to accept this as truth, then why did they filibuster or block just about every bill presented to them that has to do with creating jobs, providing health care to the 9/11 first responders, tax cuts to small businesses, filibuster the Disclosure Bill, try to stop the unemployment extension bill (calling the unemployed Hobo’s, insignificant, lazy, free-loaders etc.) and over 100 other bills and Presidential Appointments????

This week The Center for American Progress posted on their web site the Republican Economic Freedom Act of 2010. I strongly suggest you read it. This agenda in nothing more that a re-tread of Voodoo and Trickle Down economics from the previous Regan and GW Bush administrations with a 10 Trillion Dollar price tag over the next decade. It did not work then and economists (CBO, CBPP, Krugman, David Stockman and others) say it will not work now. But, what it will do is add 8-10 Trillion to the deficit, and this is financial conservatism??? Give me a break. Today John Boehner is going to give a speech on the Republican Party’s Economic policy.

A few experts from the Economic Freedom Act of 2010.

PERMANENT extension of the Bush Tax Cuts, cost 3.1 Trillion over 10 years

In 2011 alone, 42 percent of the tax benefits would go to the richest 5 percent of taxpayers. In 2012 that rises to 76.8 percent, with an astronomical 61.5 percent of those tax benefits going to the richest 1 percent of taxpayers. In effect, the plan is a massive redistribution of wealth up the income scale. This is not the way to create jobs nor does it reduce he deficit. Boehner and McConnell were asked repeatedly how they are going to pay for these tax cuts. Answer ?????? – They do not know, not one idea. McConnell thinks they are part of the current tax code so they do not count.

Elimination of the Individual and Corporate Capital Gains Tax, cost 1.3 Trillion

Reducing corporate income taxes to 12.5% cost 2.6 Trillion. This will do nothing to increase jobs; tax cuts to corporations do not translate into more jobs.

PERMANENT elimination of the Estate Tax, which would affect only 2% of the people but will add about 1 Trillion to the deficit

Moratorium on new regulations on big business when 70% of the population wants more regulations not less

This is what the republican agenda offers; 8-10 trillion dollar increase in the deficit over 10 years, reduced regulations for Wall Street and Big Business, loss of constitutional rights, repeal of health care and financial reform )before they even have a chance to be implemented), reductions to education and science, more wealth and power for the top 2%.

As a liberal democrat (and dam@ proud of it) I am not voting for more of the same ideas that got us into this mess to begin with. It makes no logical sense to go back. I do not want my freedom of speech and/or religion tampered with to create classes of people where some get the rights and others do not. I do not want social security privatized by Wall Street, we already know how that works, I want big business to be held accountable for the damage they do and NOT get a free pass – I am with the almost 70% that want more regulations not less, I want immigration reform that is fair and equal, I want stronger education NOT weaker, I want health care available to all Americans, I want our troops back home and use those funds to create jobs, like roads, bridges, sewers, new efficient power grid, green technology, manufacturing etc. The Republican Party stands for none of this. Just look at their record for the last 20 months.

The republicans are not trying to repeal health care reform or financial reform because they are bad bills, quite the contrary. They are trying to stop them before their full implementation because they are good bills that will help all Americans and they will not get any of the credit because of their obstructionism. These bills will weaken the power of their supporters (Insurance, Big Business, Wall Street, etc.) and they cannot have that. For the republicans it is all about power and greed, nothing less.

Nice work this morning Ron & Retired!

All I can say is actions do INDEED speak louder than words...

Still waiting for one... just.. one Repulican't to EXPLAIN to the American people HOW they plan on paying for keeping the Bush Tax Cuts in place?

Oh... thaaaat's right... we'll keep on adding onto the Chinese VISA card...

Navy: So good to see you. I've missed you the last few days. Hope you are fired up and ready to go!

Well said, Ron and IR!

A vote for any Republican in this election cycle involves a choice between two very different world views. A choice to vote Republican is a choice to return to the failed policies of the past, as IR so eloquently stated. It's a choice to remain mired in the fear of change, fear of minorities, fear of economic loss. It is also a conscious decision to turn one's face toward hate and intolerance. Any news story about any Tea Party rally will show the Nazi images, the witch doctor images, the pistol packing attendees--with no rejection of said images and attendees by the organizers.

A vote for a TRUE Democrat (excluding those who parade the name but vote with the Republicans) will almost always be a vote for progressive change--forward movement-help for our fellow Americans. It will make a statement about who we are as a people and if we truly believe in the core principles expressed by our founding fathers. Do we really believe, in our hearts, in our souls, that "All men are created equal"?

Good moring, Ron. How funny was that Maddow piece on Beck's 'guide' to DC? Is that guy afraid of his own shadow, too?

While I'm at it- not sure where you live in Indiana, but if it's not central, I'm sure you follow the Star. Is the Islamic Center over in Plainfield having any problems with all the anti-Islamic sentiment being propogated by some of our more 'up tight' citizens these days? If I remember correctly, they (the Muslims) were some pretty decent people.

Ron

These are sincere questions to be answered and yet another thought provoking post.

This is why I am vehemently opposed to Glenn Beck's rally. This clown, Glenn Beck, is getting paid millions to plant the seeds of hate, propagandize greed for corporations, and lie about history. As far as I am concerned those very instructions are indicative of urinating (pardon my description) on the grave of Dr. MLK's grave. Glenn Beck is a liar and does not want to restore Dr King's Dream based on those instructions. Glenn Beck has a right wing "SCHEME".

A lie cannot live. --Martin Luther King, Jr. quote

Feisty;

I hear you. Gregory tried to get Boehner to to explain how they were going to pay for the tax cuts and he just would not answer after Gregory asked no less than three times. Chuckles followed suit this week when asked the same question and added that the tax cuts are now current tax policy so why are we talking about paying for them. WHAT?? What an idiot.

Boehner's little speech today said nothing. They are waiting to see what the Internet tells them the next course of action should be. Great plan. These guys do not have one new idea between them.

RON: Sorry to miss you guys yesterday. I was at the Vet's and we had to put one of the cats down yesterday.

The Tea Party Invades Washington D.C, again. Glenn Beck leads the charge but as Ron's terrific post points out--they must be very careful where they travel in D.C. Do these people fear everything? Don't use the yellow or green lines, you might see someone or something to fear like the Constitution at the National Archives or Ben's Chili Bowl and those people to fear who eat there. Something tells me that Glenn Beck's warning to be afraid of green and yellow metro lines could scare Tea Partiers away or they could arrive at Union Station but be unable to the rally because they just might have to ride the yellow or green lines. Paranoia personified.

Primary Day. Cue the MSNBC election music. Will McCain win? Will the alleged anti-incumbent fever force McCain to retire. As Rachel pointed out last night, the media keeps telling us there is a ground swell of anti-incumbent fever which will sweep across the country "throwing all the bums out." It appears that much of this is another nonexistent controversy created out of whole cloth. Out of 324 primary races this year, only 7 incumbents lost. So much for anti-incumbent fever.

As for Boehner's speech, it appears yesterday's predictions on FR were pretty accurate--same old, same old. He did throw in that business "uncertainty" item. One "uncertainty" big business has is to avoid hiring as long as possible, work their employees as many hours as they can squeeze out of them, and keep those profits high. Business and GOPers claim "uncertainty" is an issue, business are fearful they will not have customers for their products. Truth is if they hire a few people, those people have jobs and can then buy more of those products. Ever hear "if you build it, they will come". If you hire consumers for jobs, those consumers can buy. No doubt there is some genuine uncertainty, mostly in the small business sector and with people who remain unemployed. Big business can change the equation by hiring a few more workers.

Mitt Romney driving around in a pick-up truck dressed in blue jeans and casual shirt cannot change his image to an "ordinary" guy. I suggest Mr. Romney ask Al Gore how that worked out for him. He cannot change who he is simply by changing clothes and trading the fancy car for a pick-up truck. Still, his tactical image changes should provide us with something to talk about.

Well, Ron--it reminds me of the people who go to Europe and have dinner at McDonald's--they don't really want a new experience. Add to that an assumption, however erroneous, that any area where African-Americans are would be dangerous and you can see why the Tea Party would want to map out "safe" zones for its people.

As Usual the Democrats and Rachael Maddox are some how trying to make Race an Issue. its all they have and the usual pundits on this board are chimming in to continue to Race Bait..

I am not a White person and find the OPs Rant to be more Disgusting then any i have seen on these Boards, Your Race Baiting is all you liberals have left. so the best you could come up with is to divide people on Color in your very first Rant. Go figure..

Navy-my sincere condolences on the loss of one of your furry children. I know, first hand, how much pain that causes.,

As to tax cuts, I have a question for everyone on this board:

how much would you spend to collect four cents? I mean, if you realized that you had dropped four pennies, would you drive back over your route to retrieve them? Would you tear your house apart? What if you were on vacation-would you get another flight back from whence you came to look for them?

The government would.

According to an article in the Sacramento Bee, a business named Harv's Metro Car Wash made a four cent error on this year's tax return. The IRS dispatched TWO AGENTS to hand deliver a letter demanding that Arron Zeff, the business owner, pony up. (Well,at least they saved the postage.) Mr. Zeff described the agents as 'deadly serious, very aggressive".

Wonder how much it cost us to make good on such a serious error of math?

Well,consider this: according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis-a government agency-in 2009, private sector compensation, (salaries and benefits), averaged $61,051.00. Not bad. Federal compensation,however, averaged $123,049.00-more than DOUBLE the private sector.

Still think we can't cut the federal budget? I do. Cutting it by 20% will get rid of the kind of waste exhibited by dispatching two IRS agents to collect four cents.

Do I think Obama will do it? Well, considering that, in his speech on August 5, he stated that "I have put MY(emphasis added), money behind the american worker"-I doubt it.

He doesn't even know that it isn't his money, but ours.

U.S. Navy -- Excellent post. Republicans hope Americans suffer amnesia, especially economic amnesia. The GOP has NOTHING to offer except regurgitated Reagonomics which was proven to be disastrous in 2008. As you said, democrats must criticize them more and hit them hard with their obstructionism of every piece of legislation designed to help the economy.

all we have to do is Stand back and See what the Democrats have offered and we can see why the democrats would continue to say that the republicans have offered Nothing.. With the Damge that the Democrats have done with the Bills they have passed its better To continue to point at the Republicans to try and DIVERT attention away from the Failed Polices of this Administration and this Failed Democrat Controlled Congress..

It just amazes me that the Republican agenda gets continually more biased toward the very top of the economic spectrum. Only their rhetoric even bothers to acknowledge that the "little people" are of any importance at all.

This PowerPoint presentation http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/33866.html tells you all you need to know about the Republican Party. Remember little guys, your motivations are "Fear", "Extreme negative reactions to the current Administration", and "Reactionary." Don't think about how these policies will affect you, TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY!!...and give it to the rich.

Steve

Voted for your post. You are dead on accurate. Race needs to stop being a made up issue. Like I said yesterday there are racists in all ethnicities....

There are racist conservatives and racist liberals.

Democrats say that the republicans only care about the rich.... Republicans say that democrats want a socialist country...

They're all a bunch of liars who want the most power they can get for themselves. Neither party cares about the american people.....Republicans care about what is going to give them the most power.....Democrats care about what is going to care about what is going to give them the most power.

President Obama cares about his agenda and nothing else.

Lets just all be honest and admit that none of these politicians care about us. They all care about getting reelected.

This is why we need term limits (2 terms for ALL elected officials. This way we dont get people like Charlie Rangel who do whatever they want because there is no fear ofnot being reelected. Nor would there be another Robert Byrd -- the man was FAR too old and should have been made to retire 20 years ago--- really a man in his 90s creating laws? There would also be no more feeling like we had in November when Scott brown won in Massachusetts that that seat in the Senate was Kennedy's

These politicians have all forgotten the fundamental truth of being a public servant.... the servant part.

Retired - Sorry to hear about kitty! It's NEVER a easy thing to do! :0(

Thanks for the 'heads up' about MTP - I REFUSE to watch... until they cut Gotcha Gregory lose!

US Navy, sorry to hear about your cat. Thanks for posting today. Take care,

no joe, if they really did send two agents to collect 4 cents, that is pretty bad. There is a reason, however, that the average federal compensation is greater than the average private sector compensation. There is a much larger percentage of federal employees with professional jobs, such as lawyers, accountants, and the like whereas the private sector has a lot of low skill, low paying jobs.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/

""I have put MY(emphasis added), money behind the american worker"-Barack Obama

What a great statement acknowledging that the middle class is the true engine of the American economy. "Regular people" built this country into a great nation. It's good to know that the President apprecates that.

Navy--so sorry to hear about your cat. I was a wreck when mine was sick last month; thankfully she seems to have recovered (although I'm still obsessively watching her!).

I think you are right about Boehner--in the absence of alternative suggestions, all they can do is criticize the Obama administration. The only plans I've seen them put forth are the same ones that lead us to where we are today. And I agree with the President--I just don't want to go back to the old ways.

Ron - Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I don't watch Rachel Maddow and haven't seen the brochure you mentioned, but I have ridden the D.C. Metro a number of times, and the Metro itself often puts out advance directives on which lines people should and shouldn't use for a given occasion, usually for the purpose of managing crowd control, parking, busses, and still being able to provide service to people who are not attending whatever the big event is. Some stations just have larger capacity than others. And I'm pretty sure all four lines run through all sorts of neighborhoods at one point or another, and the typical Metro ridership is about as integrated as you can get.

In fact, they did the very same thing on 1/20/09 when I was down there for the Inauguration, and I doubt that the purpose then was to steer people clear of black neighborhoods.

Like I said, I haven't seen this brochure; I'm just saying there could be a number of other explanations. It may well have racial undertones, but I'd need to hear or see more evidence than that before I made up my mind.

Navy - You have my utmost sympathies. I've been through the same thing twice myself and am sitting here getting all misty-eyed just thinking about it again. Hugs to you and your family.

Hey, JoAnne in PA

I was at the inauguration, too. Was that some crazy great, or what? I was pretty lucky to have seated tix in section Yellow eleven. AWESOME!

I do mirror Ron's skepticism on motive here. Maybe it isn't warranted; but I have to let recent history be prologue here.

no joe, no bo, nj

I read that one of the reasons Greece's government went bankrupt was because tax evasion was a national hobby. Like it or not, an effective tax collection agency insures we have money to stay solvent. And I say that as someone who owes interest on an unpaid state tax bill from 2001! I learned my lesson: just pay your taxes or make arrangements to pay in installments. Death and Taxes: it comes for all of us.

My dad worked for the IRS as a Collection Agent for many years.

Actually the IRS only deals with even dollar amounts. Thus they would not go after 4 cents. They only send agents after all other means for collection have been used and a lien has been placed on the property/possessions. Most cases that involve IRS Collection Agents are cases that are 1 step away from filing Tax Evasion charges.

JoAnne: Democrats often disagree, Maybe that's why we are thoughtful Democrats. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between us. No harm, no foul.

No Jo

He doesn't even know that it isn't his money, but ours.

No Jo the same can be said to the republicans who want to extend tax cuts for the rich, as you just said about Obama, well to the republicans i will say, that for 10 years you have given our tax dollars away that was ment for education, infastructure and paying back down our debts that you have incured to the very wealthy, well its not yours(republicans) either.

No Jo you are making it sound like even though Obama is president, tax dollars are not his to spend, but with republicans are you saying it is theirs and what ever they want to do with it is OK!!!

Dennis: thus, they did. They do not deny that they did. Read the article.

John B-you are now, offically, an Obama worshipper. It is not HIS money-it is ours.

Ron-when my son went to the University of Chicago as an undergraduate, he was given a course in 'urban living', which all first years were mandated to attend. Part of the course was dedicated to places to STEER CLEAR OF-as in, too dangerous to explore. There were bus routes with this designation, as they ran through dangerous neighborhoods. A fried chicken place - two blocks from campus - to stay away from, as students had been mugged there.

I'll be sure to alert the administration that RAchel Maddow will be showing up to expose their racism.

Hey, Clara!

Crazy, wild, awesome, incredible - maybe the single greatest day in my life. I envy you your seat - we ended up all the way back at the base of the Washington Monument, squeezed into the last inch of standing room where you could still see and hear one of the Jumbo-tron screens. But even that was awesome, as we had a great view of just how immense the crowd was. I still get goosebumps just thinking about it, and I don't care who our next 20 Presidents are, there will never be anything like it. And it was what - 14 degrees outside that day? I don't know about you, but I never felt it. Thanks for sharing the memories!

Ron - You know me - the truth is always somewhere in between. And it really is the THOUGHT that I look forward to here every day.

no joe, no bo, nj

Ron-when my son went to the University of Chicago as an undergraduate, he was given a course in 'urban living', which all first years were mandated to attend. Part of the course was dedicated to places to STEER CLEAR OF-as in, too dangerous to explore. There were bus routes with this designation, as they ran through dangerous neighborhoods. A fried chicken place - two blocks from campus - to stay away from, as students had been mugged there.

No Jo the truth is that alot of kids from the univ of chicago and univ of Ill at circle campus are right next to the west and south sides neighborhoods where there are lot of drugs. my daughter had a simular class at DePaul univ down town campus. the reason why this class is nessary is that the kids from out of town will go in hoods and either buy drugs, or get a hooker. they must be told that the chicago police will arrest then and or detain them for being in the wrong neighborhood. they have no reason to be there. so as you said that chicken place 2 blocks away is not where we want you to go eat, don't take the #3 king drive Bus south, or the #8 cottage grove bus north or you will be robbed.
see some kids that were not use to the inner city will think its cool to see who the other people live and in chicago for a white kid on the south side where univ of chicago is, that is stupid and very dangerous.

See No Jo its not racism, its for their safety.

see mayor King Richard the second Daley is not a racist, he is a realist.

NO Joe, what an absolutely ridiculous post.

When the President says "MY money...etc" he is referring to his BACKING of the middle class. It's a reference which orginated with betting on horses. Stephen Foster even used it in a song, "I bet my money on a bob-tailed nag..." He is saying he is backing the middle class, not playing with "our" money.

Geeez, you sound like a J.G.Wentworth Commercial, "It's MY money and I want it NOW!"

I cannot believe anybody would take such a statement so out of context and try to make an issue out of it.

Get a life, jo, really, and stay off the blogs, you're embarrassing yourself.

NJ, I thought as a teacher you'd be familiar with something called a "saying" or "cliche", but maybe your subject is PE. The very fact that you're pursuing this ridiculous approach tells me--and everyone else--that you're being intellectually dishonest.

Therefore I leave you to your game. It's called Solitaire.

“They do not deny that they did.”

The only comment from the IRS - IRS spokesman Jesse Weller isn't commenting "due to privacy and disclosure laws."

Could there be more to this story than the newspaper reported?

skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City

Geeez, you sound like a J.G.Wentworth Commercial, "It's MY money and I want it NOW!"

that was classic Skip, you my new bestest friend.

LOL LOL, LOL

Ouch No Jo. Ouch babe!!!!

Sorry to hear about your cat U.S. Navy. :{

skip-you can join John B. at training for acolytes.

Jeff-don't I know it. While I, of course, was terrified at the idea of leaving my 'baby' at school, I was comforted to know that they would educate all students who were unfamiliar with city life as to how to keep their souls in their bodies. While it is true that there would be some students who might think it 'cool' to get into trouble, the emphasis was on those students who might wind up in the wrong place purely accidentally. I'm sure that you agree with me that there is nothing racist about this.

no joe, no bo, nj

Jeff-don't I know it. While I, of course, was terrified at the idea of leaving my 'baby' at school, I was comforted to know that they would educate all students who were unfamiliar with city life as to how to keep their souls in their bodies. While it is true that there would be some students who might think it 'cool' to get into trouble, the emphasis was on those students who might wind up in the wrong place purely accidentally. I'm sure that you agree with me that there is nothing racist about this.

No Jo its nothing racist about that, just like its was nothing racist when my mother told me back in the 70s not to go west past western ave on the south side, don't go to bridgeport(catholic irish Hood where mayor lived there) and when the white sox game is over get back over the dan ryan expressway at 35 as soon as possible. whites in these hoods would see a brother or hispanic and beat the crap out of you for being over there.

No thats not racist.

It was my understanding of Rachel's Metro line analysis that the instructions being given to Tea Party attendees were counter to actually getting there; that use of the yellow and green lines were necessary in some instances depending on where the people were coming from. The rally designated on a map a very small portion of the DC area where they should stay. By declaring the yellow and green unsafe and off limits. the instructions were not providing attendees the best, quickest routes. There would be no problem in telling attendees where NOT to get off for safety reasons but by declaring areas to be avoided which include where the National Archives is located as unsafe and should be avoided is ridiculous.

Jody: Thanks for the clarification. Rachel's logic was quite sound.

All this shows is the Hate Rethoric thrown out by the Democrats.. .. The democrats continue to make everything about the color of people skin.. when nothing could be farther from the Truth.

Again. As an American Citizen that is NOT WHITE i take offence to all of you Democrats continuually Making The color of peoples Skin An issue when infact the only people that are talking about the Color of people Skin are Democrats..

Some of you Democrats have a point but it gets tainted when you throw in WHY you think that way. Anyone without political blinders on willing to investigate the root causes of issues and not just think of a way to blame it on the other party in recent history knows better though. The same goes for Republicans, but this thread just seems to be mostly liberals so far.

To me it all comes down to kicking out the idiots who don't know how to balance a check book and those who turned passing bills into an issue of who said no and not WHY they said no. It comes down to politicians who get on TV and actually ADMIT they didn't read a bill that they are so adamantly in favor of and somehow convince voters that this is the right thing to do.

It also comes down to this massive spending binge they can't seem to even address as a problem. As for how we'd pay for tax cuts, small businesses who keep more of their $$ hire more people. Those people, in turn, pay taxes of their own. Address illegal alien workers and get more legal citizens (no matter where they're from) hired and paying taxes. Anyone you can investigate in either party guilty of adding unrelated pork to bills, kick em out. Cut foreign spending on countries who don't like us anyway and you've more than paid for the tax cuts when combined with all of the new workers paying taxes. Fix the one sided trade agreements that are hemhoraging jobs and $$ over the borders while you're at it and we'll probably be on the way to a balanced deficit.

Politicans get on TV and tell you that it's a matter of how it's going to be paid for. What they are leaving out is WHY they're spending more than they're taking in to begin with. It's what politicians do. They lie to cover the truth in the hopes people won't dig deeper and vote for them. The president cannot spend $$. Period. Any politician who gets on TV and tells you otherwise is just covering their butts because they're in one of the 2 houses that actually passed the bills. Odds are they voted for it or were in the majority party when it passed. Again, they're hoping to cash in on people who they've convinced that the other party is evil to not investigate or remember their 5th grade classes that taught how things get passed in Washington. The sheer # who fall for this on either side is frightening.

For me it boiled down to the above and how many lies come from which party on how things actually work in Washington or how many lies come from the mouths of those who switch stances. This involves both parties. McCain needs to be gone. He showed his true feelings on issues with his votes. All Dems you can find on youtube who were screaming about WMDs in Iraq when Bush Sr pulled out without killing him, kick the liars out for taking us for fools telling us it's not true. Everyone who had a vote bought for the health care bill, give them the boot. Everyone who told you that you should vote for them because the other side said no and didn't bother explaining to you why it was such a good idea to vote yes for something they hadn't read yet, fire them for incompetence. Anyone running on the fact that they need your vote so their party can gain/regain control of majority, boot them because we don't NEED a stupid supermajority that is just going to ignore over half the population. 50/50 will be just fine for me, thanks. Anyone who told you Republicans were to blame for health care bill contents when Dems had fillibuster-proof supermajority, fire them for talking to you like you're an uneducated idiot to get your vote. Anyone who tries to blame a president for acts of congress that passed after 2006, show them you don't appreciate someone being in office who doesn't even understand how the process works. And, finally, anyone who tries to play the political party blame game for the deficit, they're a liar. If both parties want a balanced budget, why hasn't it happened? They're ALL guilty and cashing in on those who'll get caught up in the political fights rather than the fact that they're responsible for billions in wasteful spending.

Let's get back to voting on the issues. Stop being the victim of believing what some multi-millionaire lawyer tells you to think and think for yourself.

Sales of existing homes plunged in July (money well spent)

Stocks tumble, Dow briefly falls below 10,000 (this was only a matter of time)

Dollar slides to new 15-year low vs yen (rather disturbing)

Sherrod rejects administration job offer (can't blame her)

NY Rep. Rangel knocks Obama for 'dignity' remark (thats really helping. Go away Rangel)

These are just todays headlines posted on MSN even. Sounds like things are really good.

We won't even go into the continued high unemployment numbers, forclosures, bank repos, increased credit card rates, a flawed heath care bill that doesn't lower the cost of care, or the lack of people with pre-existing conditions who are signing up for the new heath care. People can barely put food on their tables but they are suppose to come up with 250 to 400 dollars a month for premiums? And that's the single person plan. Yes it's worth it for some but not all.

But again, we are not going to discuss these things because after all, "This is the summer of recovery".

How do you come to this conclusion? You do realize that you were watching RACHEL MADDOW right? She, and the network that employs her, are 2 of the most progressive, liberal, biast and unfair media outlets in this country! Too often she and the network distort the truth and attempt to inflame the public into hatred of anyone else that doesn't adopt their policies and beliefs. I'm 52 years old and NEVER in my life have I seen this country more divided..... EVEN as I was growing up in the late 60's and 70's!

Instead of hard leaning coverage in EITHER direction, let's start seeing things from BOTH sides of the fence! If you don't hear the opposing side, ignore what you are hearing!

Good post Jerry. I was thinking that same thing. I can't even watch these programs anymore. And yes liberals, I feel the same way about fox. They are pathetic also.

Though the Republican Party and Boehner's speech isn't going to specify... The way they plan to pay for extending Bush's tax cuts for the top 2% of wealth is by cutting Medicare, Social Security, and food stamps.

Of course Boehner, McConnell, et al are NOT intellectually honest--about anything. When asked about how Republicans propose to pay for the trillions in tax extensions, McConnell played stupid saying the tax cuts were already in effect so why the question? He knows very well the tax cuts were never paid for to begin with and why (aside from unnecessary wars) the deficits are so large. He also knows these cuts could not be made permanent without being paid for so why the cuts are due to expire. He also knows David Gregory was asking about the extension of cuts, not the last ten years of cuts. Most important is we've had the cuts for the last decade and where are the jobs?

Other lies include how Republican want to help small businesses. First, as posted above, they blocked the small business bill. Also, folks earning a quarter million or more are not small businesses as they claim. Most are CEOs, lawyers, investment bankers on Wall Street, etc. The Republicans just want to continue redistributing wealth upward to themselves, their cronies, and most of all their campaign donors.

Hate Rhetoric Steve? McConnell says he takes Obama's word for it that he is a Christian. That's the same as calling the President a lier about something that is backed with clear evidence. Winning ugly applies to the entire Republican Party, not just McCain.

As for Glenn Beck and the disgusting, vile insult to civil rights by organizing a Hate rally on the date and at the location of Martin Luther King's speech, it is clear FOX Political Organization is not 'news" and is not "fair and balanced." Aside from News Corp. (FOX) contributing a million to Republican governor races, this is not the first time Beck has shown a clear political agenda -- Not that he has any credability anyway (no, he does not receive revelation from God--that's just one of his delusions).

One would think that anyone travelling in Washington, D.C. would be careful of where they are going. As you would in any large city. It's only common sense. OOPS! I forgot. This is a site where the simple minded libbies congregate.

Rachel Maddow? It is to laugh. Why don't you just stick with Stewart?

Why is it that Bernanke and Democratic Party members such as Yarmuth (Ways and Means), Conrad (Senate Finance), and Conolly, along with a few others, don't want to end the Bush Tax cuts? Could it be they pay attention to the reports about how the "rich" are threatening the "recovery" by slowing their spending?

If you're trying to throw a racial tone to the map, you can forget it.

Most people don't chose to go through the getto areas of cities

where the crime is high and the chances of being mugged are great.

If you like those areas, go ahead, but I don't.

Steve - 505729

"i take offence to all of you Democrats continuually Making The color of peoples Skin An issue when infact the only people that are talking about the Color of people Skin are Democrats.."

Democrats bring up this subject when it matters, such as when candidate Obama made his speech on race in America. Democrats tend to bring it up to try to address issues or solve solutions, the GOP primarily brings it up to instill fear.

As a latino I see the GOP bring up race negatively when they post inflammatory signs against the POTUS such as at Tea Party rallies. They make it an issue when some cling to celebrating Confederate 'heroes' or when some admire the flag of a seditious rebellion.

I see it when the GOP calls for racial profiling of legal residents and american citizens. I see the GOP bringing in race when they call for the abandonment of the 14th amendment.

I see the GOP fear mongering when they attack and demonize a cultural center built in New York.

I'll bet it couldn't be that those are high crime areas, could it?

Yeah but the parts mentioned in the map and on the site were not all ghetto parts,some of the ares were really nice areas. Just more fear mongering if you ask me. And besides if the message the project is so important why not spread it everywhere. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me. Well they are hypocrites if you ask me.

What I see in a lot of these replies above is a bunch of liberals that are sacred to death over what us tea partiers are going to do to them in november....Its not gonna be pretty for the dems, its over for them....Hope and change was a lie, and the country is real mad over it....So try the blame game and insult game all you want libs, its not going to save you....You have 2-1/2 months left in power, bye bye!!!

Louis,

Good points. The republican agenda is still to do nothing, no governing at all from them so they can blame our President later. This is getting worse every day. Boehner said absolutely nothing today that is new.

Same Old, Same Old.

US Navy: My condolences to you and yours on your loss of your kitty. That's so sad...

Certainly it's slight of hand on a scale that's simply amazing. Distract with talk of imaginary gun laws, scary brown people, and freedom = money. Vilify the government, destroy trust, pretend that public services are a waste. Then let the wealthy simply walk away from any responsibility to society.

And millions walk right into it because most people believe they'll one day be in the top 20% and they don't want it ruined. So build that wall against upward mobility without actually looking to see if you're on the inside our outside. It doesn't matter now, but when the barbarians are at the gates...

That’s the agenda for the TEA BAGGERS, to wait for the “DO NOTHING” Conservo drones to make an attempt to say so something and once they step to the stage, they say nothing.

Do you understand what one party having a fillibuster-proof majority and closed door proceedings means? Does "DO SOMETHING" mean vote for everything a Dem proposes without reading it?

Well actually they say… Social this, Muslim that… wonk, wonk, wonk, wonk… blah, blah, blah, blah.

Not all of them. The % who say things like that is actually MUCH less than the % who blame Bush for everything he had no power over. You're being taken for a fool by those who got into the name calling games to win your vote.

The Republicans try to dress themselves up as true Americans when all they actually resemble are anti-American based on the premise of America being white owned and operated

The race card? Really? Almost every form of scholarship, loan, grant, etc is based on whether you are a minority or not now. Minority = non white male. My Dad made $30K a year when I went to college and since I was white and that was "too much $$ to qualify", I had to work my way through college. Not only that, I had to choose another degree plan because affirmative action mandated I wait until more of the 40 free seats were filled by non white males before I could attend. I was denied education based on the color of my skin. Does that sound like "white owned and operated" to you? As for anti-American, you're honestly going to say that after quotes like "I'm ashamed to be an American" and "Well other countries do things a different way so let's change America to match it" or even not wearing an American flag during the campaigns?

You've been duped.

Allen, it sounds like you are the one that was duped.

With all the bigotry and fear mongering, it's no wonder the pathetic attempts to ostricize anyone that is different has not come back to bite the Republicans that think for themselves... no, wait... there are no Republicans that can think for themselves.

Allen-very interesting and valid points. Hearing this propaganda from BOTH sides is becoming ridiculous! Here is one possibility to the "Racist" bus routes that were mapped out. Perhaps, and I'm not positive about this because I haven't been to D.C. in years, but perhaps there aren't places of public interest in these "black" neighborhoods? Is that a possibility or is it just easier to claim racism in the tea party because they didn't go through any black neighborhoods? It's easy for Republicans to "claim" that nothing was done during the democratically controlled congress because they wouldn't want any victories to go on record against them. And it's easy to "claim" that republicans are the party of "no" when they don't go along with the democratic agenda. And we come here and ridicule those that oppose our opinions rather than seek out those that will create the change that everyone bought into. The change that didn't happen. Or is happening so slowly that it appears as if it is not happening. Just like in 2006 when we voted out those that were responsible for leading us into a war that most of us since have found was wrong, it's time for us to vote out those that have led us down the path of economic instability. And that is those that are seated NOW. Not Bush, not the Republicans alone, not the Democrats alone. Those in office of both sides. More just seem to be democrats because there are more democrats in office.

Joe in Albany

My two favorite MSNBC comedians, Chris Mathews and Mr. Ed were back from vacation yesterday. Both were pretty lame, but, the first Monday back from vacation usually sucks for everybody. Mr. Ed did have a couple of laughs: He had Rev. Al, the man that puts the “dumb” in Dumbocrat,

Next up was Congressman Alan Grayson, the man that puts the “mor(e)” in moron,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not Bad For You Joe, A "HILARIOUS" Tea Bagger, Who Puts The "Oh- Oh- Oh -Oh- Oh " In "Uh- Oh!!!!"

Bev, sounds like you consider yourself an expert on tea bagging. Probably the result of many years of "professional" experiences.

Why am I not surprised??

LMAO@U!!!!

Wow. A poster just basically called another poster a whore and laughed about it.

Just wow.

You certainly just moved yourself up a few notches on the 'piece of human excrement' scale there, Joe.

Joe in Albany

Bev, sounds like you consider yourself an expert on tea bagging. Probably the result of many years of "professional" experiences.

Why am I not surprised??

LMAO@U!!!!

________________________________________------

Not really, Joe. I'm more of an expert at recognising the bullsh!t you post daily. Believe it's not funny either. It's sick!!

Mikey, get over it. Bev started this with calling me a "tea bagger". Just on the odd chance you're not bright enough to understand what an insulting term that is, you should google "urban dictionary" and look up the term "teabagging". She got off easy with my comment back to her.

The tea party called themselves Tea Baggers before one of the brighter ones looked it up in the dictionary. You clowns did it to yourselves. and as typical, you deny it and fail to take ownership that you referred to yourselves as Tea Baggers before anybody else did. Now live with it.

Yeah, she called you a term that has been abstractly applied to an entire group of people and you responded by calling her a whore. If you aren't aware of how the term evolved, the tea partiers applied it to themselves, then it was picked up by the comedy central hosts, who made hay with it, then it was picked up by Olbermann et al.

The long and short of it is that you very directly and personally called another poster a whore and your jackass compatriots applauded you for it by starring your post. And now you are trying the lame, 5-year-old justification of 'but she called me a bad name first.'

Own up to your behavior, just like you demand the poor of the world do. Have some personal accountability.

Or pretty much remain a piece of trash.

USNDV, isn't your reasoning the same thing as saying that many African Americans call each other the "n" word, so it's OK for everyone to call them the "n" word and they should "Now live with it." because "You clowns did it to yourselves."??

How does that work for you??

Looks like YOU are not one of "the brighter ones" on FR.

Mikey, come down from the pulpit before you hurt yourself.

In other words, 'I will continue to behave like the scum-sucking, little prick that I am because no one here knows who I am, so I can say what I want without any fear of consequences.'

That about sum it up?

You're just mad cause you got caught being an idiot again. Once again you and your tea-bagger buddies fail to take ownership of your own mistakes. With you guys it is always somebody elses fault and you try to put a racist spin on your own racist hate and bigotry.

I really feel sorry and pity you.

"You're a teabagger"

"You're a whore"

You're an idiot"

"You're a piece of trash"

and the most common left wing insult "you're a racist"

Let me jump on the bandwagon here: You are all a bunch of children. Go ahead and keep flaming so that the politicians can continue to @!$%# us all in the ass.

Maybe the reason we don't understand the Teabaggers is cause their mouths are always full! I'm just saying......

Mikey, you might want to look into an anger management program.

USNDV, you can't or won't answer the question. So, what do you do?? What every good lefty liberal does when backed into a corner with their own words: Scream "RACIST!!!"

Pathetic.

Calling out someone who behaves like a prick doesn't have anything to do with me being angry. It has to do with, you know, the fact that the person behaves like a prick. I could easily play the same stupid game with you, considering how completely out of proportion calling someone a whore is in retaliation to what Bev said. I could pretend to know that you are a mysoginist or pretend that I think you have anger management issues or whatnot, but I won't because the truth is that I don't really care what your motivations are. I care that you act like a prick.

The reasons you act like a prick are largely irrelevent, but the fact that you try to defend acting like a prick when called on it is probably a pretty good indicator that you in fact ARE a prick, but I have no real knowledge of that either.

All I know is that you act like a prick and am pointing that out to you. Whatever action or lack of action you choose to take based on that knowledge is completely up to you. You can choose to acknowledge the fact that you are acting like a prick. Or you choose to act like a 5-year-old child and try to justify it and blame others for your own behavior.

Either way, don't expect that I am angry about it. I am just blunt and realistic and have no reason to spare your feeling, so understand that instead of tolerating it like those who know you in everyday life because they are forced to stay at least a little bit polite to you, I am probably doing nothing more than just telling you a hard truth you don't particularly want to hear.

You come across as a prick. And based on your continued behavior and defense of it, that's likely what you are. But it doesn't mean you have to stay that way. That, like everything else, is your choice.

Michael -

THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU!!

No one could have said it better than you DID!

Mikey, you're entitled to you opinion that I'm a "pr!ck", in which case I have a two word response:

Bite me.

And a question for the Nasty Redhead: You wouldn't have been lying about putting me on your ignore list, would you??

BTW, Mikey, be careful with the Nasty Redhead, she is a self-described "cougar" that also has stated that being "old enough to shave" makes someone "Feisty-worthy".

LOL!!!

No Joey....

I'm not lying about you being the only one so far on my 'ignore' list! You have that special honor!

Let me introduce you to this nifty invention called an on/off switch - since you don't appear to be familiar with it... at the click of the mouse you can change status in less than a second...

You see there Joey - I'm able to see when your getting your a@@ kicked without having to directly read your asinine daily dose of immature drivel...

Are you following along so far Joey?

And when it gets REALLY good like it did today when someone actually stood up and called you what I've thought of you all along... I can turn it back on to witness from the front row you getting the spanking you so justly deserve! Otherwise... you are of NO importance!

Now if you'll excuse me... I'm switching back to ignore Minnow Joey as I have no time or inclination to have a battle of the wits with a prepubescent boy who hangs out in his mothers basement playing pocket pool when he's not regurgitating nonsense or laughing like a hyena!

PS: A nice soft pillow for the next couple of days should come in handy as it's going to sting for quite some time! LOL

Mickey,

You need to get off of your self-righteous azz perch. That trick called this man a frikken teabagger and he took offence to it. Maybe she doesn't know the meaning. You sound as though you have a little experience administering this technique. Maybe Fiesty's old decripid azz can help you out. Both of you can where the nickname of chipmunk mouth. Is that why it looks as though your eating jawbreakers all day?

For the record, that term was not coined by the tea party. That is some of that Olbermann BS.

Now if you feel the need to roll with me, Bring It and your simple azz minions too.........now go suck on that CLOWN.

Speaking of CLOWNS there ITM... I am soooo happy you finally got a mirror in your house...blood sucking a@@holes tend to avoid them!

After all of our time together.. I have witnessed you suck on A LOT of things... and it's ALWAYS been about you first and foremost! Which I guess is quite the accomplishment.... when you have a 'self proclaimed anaconda'... Dude... you ARE NOTHING more than a legend in your own twisted mind... and I use the term 'mind' VERY losely in your case..

Kick rocks you stupid trick! And QUIT swerving into lanes that have NOTHING to do with you!

YOU have been put on notice time and time AGAIN... and like I said we ALL have your useless STUPID opinion on speed dial...

If I may weigh in on Joe's hypocrisy. I will happily go to every tea party rally and call the attendees teabaggers to their faces if Joe will go to Anacostia in our Nation's capitol and call each African-American he sees a ni66er. Since he seems to think there is some equivalence between the two, let him find out the hard way. Betcha he's too much of a Pu$$y to even respond let alone accept the offer.

US navy-seems as if you're wrong....yet again:

First, a little history. After Barack Obama was sworn in as president, with his big majorities in Congress, the Democrats launched quite a bit of federal spending: particularly with the “stimulus” package. Some Americans were determined to counter this. And, before you knew it, we had the “tea party” movement. What protesters were doing, of course, was invoking the spirit of the American Revolutionaries, and their Boston Tea Party. According to the website of the Tea Party Patriots, the movement is committed to three “core values”: fiscal responsibility, constitutionally limited government, and free markets.

The first big day for this movement was Tax Day, April 15. And organizers had a gimmick. They asked people to send a tea bag to the Oval Office. One of the exhortations was “Tea Bag the Fools in D.C.” A protester was spotted with a sign saying, “Tea Bag the Liberal Dems Before They Tea Bag You.” So, conservatives started it: started with this terminology. But others ran with it and ran with it.

You see, they used it as a gimmick, and then the left media used it as an adjective against those that did it. And now you use it against those that disagree with you. Very sad. But at least now you are informed.

Bev in Chicago:

Very good points. Boehner said exactly what you said he would. NOTHING NEW. Some people on this board are not going to let a little thing like facts stand in the way of their in-factual posts. Just look at the past history of these people.

Good morning Navy;

What else can he say when he's not drinking besides "Hell Nah"?

Sorry to hear about you cat.

Well said, Beverly.

Jody, Iowa

Well said, Beverly.

Thanks Jody; I try and your recognition is always an inspiration; many thanks again.

Thanks for the shout out Chris - AWESOME post!

Hope to see you 'participating' more often! :0)

Thanks Chris: It is your comments and support that encourages us to write. Supporting one another is the Democratic way.

Wow Chris . . . you don't mince your words, huh? ;o)

The 24-hour distraction of we, "the masses", is a real big problem that is allowing a whole lot of foolishness to continue.

It is a slow process Chris, but I do believe that slowly but surely, more and more folks are starting to understand what is going on.

The problem is it is difficult to get a true reading of what "we the people" think, since everything is often filtered through a corpororate perspective in the corporate media . . . but I do not believe that the loudest voices always represent the majority opinion.

P.S. I too worry if what we are presenting is "intellectual masturbation" (although just typing that kind of creeps me out a bit! lol), but I would rather be one little voice crying out than be silent . . . maybe its just enough therapy to keep my personally sane in our current political house of mirrors!

"Their objective is simple, if the President, and the Congress, allows these tax cuts to expire, there will be no job growth and thus unemployment will remain high."

Welcome to the "new normal" of being a socialist Old Europe country. If the lefty liberals want the good ole USA to be more like France, then they are going to have to learn to live with France-like slow economic growth and high unemployment.

Next stop: Barry's deficit commission recommending a VAT tax, just like old Europe. After the election, of course.

Chris;

Way to go. Great words keep them coming.

Great post Chris, Scary though!

It's frustrating to know that in ten weeks time thousands of middle class voters will elect Republicans because they believe keeping tax cuts for the wealthiest will create jobs. On Meet The Press on Sunday Mitch McConnell kept saying "you don't raise taxes during a recession." That simple sound bite is all some people hear, it doesn't occurr to them that we saw the slowest job rate in recent history during the Bush administration while tax cuts were in place. I think it is absolutely crucial that folks like us, who have really thought about this, fan out on the Internet, write letters to the editor and speak up to our neighbors, pushing back against the misinformation permeating our culture. We don't have to get upset and call people names, we just have to present the facts to people who will be voting. Personally, I've been posting on You Tube, where the Rightwing is waging a misinformation battle. I just present the facts and don't get into the "you're stupid, no you're stupid" banter. I think its effective to say "I'm angry too, but this is how I see it..."

Not typically being one to believe in 'conspiracy' I have scratched on this very topic before. There is a high stakes game of 'chicken' going on between this Administration and those who would sell their mother for an additional tax credit. The GREED mantra of our society has trumped what used to pass for 'common' sense. And they have managed to wrap it up in the flag and serve it up to their blind and loyal 'faithful'. I am appalled at the lengths I have seen what I used to believe were rational people go to recently to contort the 'policies' into an evil invective for political gain. Regulation, BAD. Tax Cuts for a very small few, GOOD. If you're not WITH us, you're AGAINST us. Any of this sounding familiar?

This is a deliberate attack on the US by the greed class. I think it is treasonous; but I guess this is what you get when you put your tax rates on 'sale' and bankrupt the country. No one wants to go back to paying the Regular Price, even if it is designed to reduce the very deficits that you are all fired up about having been created in the first place.

The Tax Sale of 2001 and 2003 can best be summed up by the Circuit City/Best Buy analogy. Circuit City is America and Best Buy is China in this little metaphor. Any questions?

It's time to END the Sale, and delve into the 'pain' of what THAT reality looks like. Avoiding it is like trying to ease off a week old bandaid. We really just need to rip that sucker off to start the healing.

PS. My publically traded company is sitting on more tax credits than we can currently use. As are many corporations. A tax credit is only valuable if you have the relative profit to offset it. MANY of the corporations bitching the loudest have drained their proverbial tax swamp which is why a majority of them have not paid Federal Income Tax in years.

Excellent post, Chris. When you comment, you always have something worthwhile and interesting to say; and thanks for the kind words.

The media drives the perception of people. If people hear enough negatives about economic policy and President Obama, they become skeptical and fearful again thus slowing the very economic gains made this year.

Thank you for the kind words.

Clara;

You really summed it up. Middle America is under attack by a Right Wing party that wants complete and total domination over us. You are 100% correct in that it is all about power and money (for them) and nothing for us (the Middle Class). That is not a good long term plan if one is to look and history and learn from it. That is a plan for the self-destruction of this country.

Well Chris there were many good points in your post regarding the distractions in the political world today that I agreed with. However, you then move into the tinfoil world of conspiracy theory. So basically you think that all of corporate America is sitting on their profits in effort to ruin President Obama? Little out there isn't it.

If you actually look at the financial statements of these companies you'll see that they're growing at the bottom line, their top line revenue is actually static or falling. This means their profits are growing by cutting costs, usually at the expense of employment as that is one of the higher costs, you know wages and benefits. Also you think these guys sit there and trying not to grow their company by either expanding the market or taking share from competitors. Guess they all went to the collusion business school.

So lets look at your idea. You think they should use their profits by employing more staff. To do what? Their top line revenue is not growing. I know this is what happens at the DMV or when a hole is dug (1 working and 4 watching) but why would they bring in more people if their company and markets are not expanding?

And on a personal level I must be part of this conspiracy because I've been thinking about buying a car for about 9 months now. However, every time I get close to a decision I have second thoughts about taking on a 5 year loan even at 0%. This is because I am not confident in my employment position. I believe many are in the same position as me, willing to spend but holding off because of uncertainty. And tax cuts will not influence this decision but an increasing confidence in my employment position would.

As one economist put it we are moving from a consumption economy to a savings economy. It's a little more complex than a conspiracy theory to ruin the current administration.

"However, you then move into the tinfoil world of conspiracy theory."

I'm looking forward to 9/11 "truther" Paul to post that Darth Cheney is behind this conspiracy also.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, when I read this, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

The one point you make is that you somehow made the leap that last spring, Obama's stimulous was beginning to work. I don't know what evidence you had for that observation-no one else has any-but perhaps you are using 'job growth' numbers to support that view. So, I will remind you, and everyone else who has forgotten, that the only job growth seen was from the federal government hiring temporary census workers. Private sector growth has been anemic, at best. The total drop in the level of unemployment has been from the government moving hundreds of thousands into the 'out of the labor force' poll of discouraged workers-640,000 in June alone!

It is clear that you do not have any understanding of how the economy works. There is a thing called a business cycle-people try to ignore it, break the cycle, change it-but it exists. During growth periods, businesses expand, adding employees. During the contraction phase, as sales fall and profits decrease, businesses cut staff, becoming more efficient. Yes, they undergo a period of increased profits due to increased productivity. They do not, however, add employees UNTIL THE DEMAND FOR THEIR PRODUCTS DICTATES.

Put simply, they don't need more people until not having enough people costs them business.

Since you have obviously never run a business, I'll illustrate: suppose you had a lemonade stand. Every day, you sold 20 cups of lemonade, and made a profit of five cents per cup. During a really hot spell, you noticed customers leaving because the lines were too long. After doing a little math, you decided that you would actually make more money if you hired your little sister at two cents a cup to help at the stand; now you can sell 40 cups of lemonade, increasing your total profit even while your expenses increase by two cents a cup. (A dollar twenty versus a dollar without her.)

Things hum along well, but the hot spell breaks and you are back to having the number of customers before the heat wave. You are now making less profit, because of the two cents a cup you are paying your little sister. Sadly, you tell her she is fired.

You do this because you are not running a charity, and she is not a volunteer. You are in business to make a profit.

Question: what would make you hire her back?

Answer: more customers than you can handle on your own.

Actually, the economy would be in much better shape if Obama had failed to implement most of his policies. It is not just businesses who fear his economic retribution on the American system, but consumers, who fear to consume because they do not know what is coming next. That is why he is upside down with the American public on his handling of the economy.

You just keep on imagining some 'vast, right wing conspiracy' causing Obama to fail.

Keep in mind, though, that the overwhelming majority of the country now realizes that he does not need any help in that regard.

Alan, NJ - I find your reasoning concerning this post intriguing. I think that your last sentence in your post is PROBABLY correct. For those that currently have jobs, I do NOT see a lot of people going into debt; I DO see people paying down or discharging the debt that they do have. This in effect, takes 'consumption' money our of circulation. I believe that this is the main reason why we are not seeing a more robust 'recovery' from the stimulus or other economic stimuli.

I am not sure I am on board with Corporations witholding money to spite the President (although I am sure that some do), but for most businesses, uncertainty will cause a CEO to rethink his spending and investment goals for the year. Although I agree that many Corporations are seeing record profits from cost cutting, this strategy is unsustainable and that money that the Corporation is 'hoarding' will need to be used to fund normal business operations in the future.

I CANNOT rule out those Corporations that just do NOT like this President and will help their political counterparts to make the playing field more palatable (like the Chamber of Commerce). If we can isolate the person(s) who are doing this (like the Koch brothers), then I think Chris wouldhave a stronger case.

With all of that being said, I think that the money that is being circulated on Main Street is being used to pay down or eliminate debt (debt service) more often than not. The rest ofthe money is being used to sustain households. I do NOT see Main Street with much 'discretionary' spending, and that is usually money people 'blow' on luxuries and trips.

If nothing else, the American people are servicing THEIR debt.

Thatwas an intersting post, Alan. Thanks.

“But when Speer and other executives were pressed on the role that tax and regulatory policies play in hiring, they drew only vague connections. Speer said his decision whether to hire is driven primarily by demand for his products. Orders are coming in strong enough that he is running about 20 hours a week of overtime. So he is weighing whether to hire two or three additional manufacturing workers.”

“None of the executives interviewed linked a specific new government initiative with a specific decision to refrain from hiring.”

"It took us a decade to get in the ditch we are in," Speer said. "There isn't going to be instant gratification to get us out of it. We're going to have to get used to a lower growth economy, and that is going to be a big adjustment for all of us."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/20/AR2010082005165.html?hpid=topnews

Unfortunately much of what's wrong in our economy continues to be driven by a Wall Street expectation of immediate gain that sacrifices long term viability. EVERY quarter results must be better. EVERY month the bottom line must improve. Much of the profit being made in stocks is now being claimed by people who use automatic trading to take advantage of price fluctuations of pennies that last for less than a second.

Where in this is appreciation for building a good product, one that's developed to become better over time, with value added in distribution and support? It all gets sacrificed to a higher share price TODAY!! Those are the building blocks of a quality company and a sound economy. "The smartest guys in the room" don't care, they're only in it for themselves.

So a combination of being greedy, short-sighted, and responsible to no one conspires to keep us in the doldrums. So much for the kings of Wall Street. It's time for the middle class to stand up and demand fairness, demand accountability, demand sensible policy. Good knows the people at the top of the economic spectrum aren't going to do it.

CHRIS-

"It took us a decade to get in the ditch we are in," Speer said. "There isn't going to be instant gratification to get us out of it. We're going to have to get used to a lower growth economy, and that is going to be a big adjustment for all of us."

Chris, "instant gratification" is because the repubs have used the meme that President Obama was supposed to be the Magic Negro which was what the toxic talker Rush Limbaugh started. I do believe all low information voters actually expected astronomical growth due to high expectations the minute President Obama put his hand on the bible to swear in as President. We all had hope. However, it was the President himself who said it would not be easy. We must continue to realize how we got here and what measure it will take to get out.

Thanks for speaking up, because should they (rethugs) gain power, which I doubt, the magic will be then left up to them.

Sadly, they'll have nothing more than the illusions they gave US beforehand.

Chris, great post. You really have summed up my feelings about the Repubs lately. They simply want to get this country into a position where they and their backers are as rich as they can, no matter how many millions of people are screwed over.

Chris, "instant gratification" is because the repubs have used the meme that President Obama was supposed to be the Magic Negro which was what the toxic talker Rush Limbaugh started. I do believe all low information voters actually expected astronomical growth due to high expectations the minute President Obama put his hand on the bible to swear in as President. We all had hope. However, it was the President himself who said it would not be easy. We must continue to realize how we got here and what measure it will take to get out.

It's ridiculous to believe that only Republicans pushed the idea of quick change. Our society is built on a culture of instant gratification. Very few people understand (or claim to understand) how the economy works. They just know they want a better one and they want it now.

NoJoe - No one is disputing the concept of the economic cycle. The idea behind the "failed" economic policies was to jump start demand. Put money in the hands of consumers, and they will spend it on products, creating demand for workers to create those products, and lessening the time spent in the Recession/Recovery portion of the cycle. It's the same reason the Fed might raise the funds rate in a period of high prosperity - to even out the cycle. I've previously admitted that Liberals are in a weakened argumentative position right now, as we're still in a weak, fragile recovery. Whether that points to a failure in economic policy, uncertainty of consumer spending or a deeper recession than initially believed is up to individuals to decide (I know where you stand =).

They do not, however, add employees UNTIL THE DEMAND FOR THEIR PRODUCTS DICTATES.

NoJo, you just proved the point that no amount of tax cuts will increase jobs, just demand will. And I like you are concerned about the deficits we leave behind to our children and the continued loan from China. So would you agree that letting the tax cuts expire would be fiscally prudent to reduce our continued deficit?

Also couln't we agree that the republicans are using the theory that tax cuts will help job growth is suspect at best and are trying to leverage the American voter into believing that their will be no continued job growth unless we do leave them in place? Thus scaring the American voter when we are all so vunerable because of our current situation. In other words trying to blackmail us in to believing that if some how we could keep these tax cuts in place that jobs are on the way. The other question that is not getting alot of traction is asking the republicans if these tax cuts will create jobs and they have yet to say with any certainty (in their own words) that they will. Evidently, including you with your own words.

Alan,NJ; NoJo NoBo, NJ

There is no misunderstanding of economics on my part, or that my judgement is clouded by some wild conspiracy theory. My thoughts regarding the collaboration of the Rethuglican Party and Corporate Fascist being at WAR with our President is borne out of statements that are on the record, in News Reports, Interviews, and Corporate statements they have made. If you guys would do your home work and stop listening to FOX and reading the Opinion pages of Murddoch's Wall Street Journal, you will began to see what's happening.

The problem here is you guys, like so many others, are doing well in this economy. Therefore, your own self-interest trump the interest of the country as a whole. I must admit, I also am a high income earner. However, the difference in me, and you guys is the fact, I believe in the collectiveness of WE as human beings and Americans. People like you profess to love this country so much. But, what you really love is your individual income more. Your collective short sightedness blinds you to the fact that your future is also in jeopardy. If there is no middle class, eventually the income and financial security you think you have will crumble. What has made this country GREAT is its middle class. Without it, there will be no security for anyone. The country of Mexico is finding this out as I write. Moreover, I have owned and ran businesses that have been successful. Moreover, I have met and currently meet a major payroll each month. Currently, my business is enjoying the best year of revenue and profits I've seen in a long time. My internal IRR (internal rate of return) on investment is excellent. Please note, we do not have any business relationship with any government entity.

What I have learned while in business, one's integrity, relationship with God, love of country, love of family and community, trumps politics and yes, even money. I suspect neither of you, if you are in business, will not be in it long. Just Guessing.

Excellant post!

I second that Boston, and wish more business leaders and our politicians understood this business model as well. Instead some just want to leverage fear for their own personal gain. The"Let them eat cake Mentality" crowd. That mentality seemed to work out so well for France.

When 1 person rules a country, like Saddam Hussein, we call it a dictatorship.

When 2% of the population rules the other 98%, we call that a perfect GOP world!!!

The problem with letting the tax cuts expire is that these people that make all of this money are going to continue to make all of this money one way or another. That means forcing their workforce to work harder to make the same amount of production without additional employees. The vicious cycle of not expanding or hiring until demand increases, yet demand won't increase without someone hiring more employees. If the tax cuts expire, these vultures will find other ways of increasing their revenue to obtain the same fat paychecks they expect. Probably making another workforce reduction. Whether it's right or not in theory, these tax cuts are the only thing that is going to keep some people employed.

And this continued blame on Republicans has run it's course. I don't like either side, but passing the buck just makes me more likely to vote them out of office.

Awww... C'mon, USN-Ret.

Y' mean an exec making, say, $400 MILLION doesn't make enough, but that he really needs to make, say, $800 MILLION= by sending the jobs of the common American worker-bees to China or India or Mexico? THEN complain because they need a hand to survive??

(oh, geez- I bet I bring down the wrath of ME First Bill, and many like him, for that one!)

Drive By:

What the he!! are you spouting now. I did not say anything about sending jobs to China or Mexico. What a twit, you cannot even read.

Ummm... Retired....

Drive-By is on 'our' team - he tends to be a bit sarcastic at times... and this time it was clearly lost in the translation! ;0)

Another fine one today, US Navy Retired!

Feisty,

I over reacted, I thought that might be the case as I read other post from Drive By. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

DRIVE BY: Sorry I over reacted to your post. I think we need a sarcasm button so old folks like me know the difference. Again I apologize for the mis-interpretation of your post. As sarcasm that was a very good point. Sorry

LOL.. haha.. liberals have to be Reminded who is on their Team.. they get 4 or 5 people to come on these Boards, post the drivel that they wish to post then they all Stroke each others Ego..

Way to Save Navy there Fire brewed woman. LOL...

US Navy

We were both in the Military and given your screen name Im assuming your rank when you were retired was at he very least E-6 correct?

That being asked (while I dont agree with the idea of "housing" welfare recipients in prisons) what is wrong with, if we are going to continue to give tax dollars to those who are unable to support themselves, making them EARN the money they are getting just like the rest of us?

The system set forth by Paladino doesnt go far enough in my estimation. What happens if I stop going to work? Do I get paid? Do I get to keep my benefits? Of course not. Why should those who get gov't assistance be any different?

The choices should be pretty simple.... If you reecieve govt't assistance you should have to choose between two choices:

1. Work a 40 hour week like the rest of us -- jobs could be anything from cleaning rest areas to cutting grass on the highway to cleaning up city parks (not only would this force people on gov't assistance to earn what they get but it would also help reduce gov't spending). In addition to this they should recieve "personal days" and "vacation" like the rest of us do. If a person recieving gov't assistance mises a day of work and is not using a personal day or vacation they would recieve a lower amount in their assistance.

2. If a person recieving gov't assistance does not want to work then they need to be in a school of some type (higher education / trade school)

These steps are directly in line with what Ben Franklin said (paraphrasing): the best way to get someone out of poverty is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty".

If a person didnt want to do either of those then sorry but you are on your own.

The problem anymore is so many people expect a free lunch and people dont want to work for what they earn.

US Navy Ill ask you this....would you allow sailors under you to feel as if they were entitled to a paycheck just for enlisting? Or did you expect them to show up for duty everyday and work?

Why is it that we expected that out of our troops (Fmr AF E-5 here) but we dont expect those that are getting our tax dollars to work just as hard as we do?

Larry, your ideas are intriguing, but wouldn't change anything with regard to government spending. 1) If people take jobs cleaning up city parks, mowing highway medians, acting as janitors at rest areas, what happens to the people currently holding those jobs? Do they lose them? A second question might be "who pays for the transportation costs to get people to where these jobs are?" 2) If someone is in school, who pays for that? Tuition isn't cheap -- does the government subsidize the education? It is not true at all that people expect a free lunch -- to get unemployment money one has to be actively looking for a job (and proving it) every week. Most people would love to have a job. There are too few available (ND is an exception, as you know).

Larry, I too find your ideas interiguing. So how do you plan on getting these people the jobs you talk about? Every State in the Union right now is dealing with budget deficits. Does this mean that you ADVOCATE that taxes be raised so that money is available to hire people? With cash-strapped States, how are we planning on raising enough money to be able to hire more people?

Now Larry, to achieve this employment option you espouse, does that mean we would have to get the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to FUND this initiative? THe State(s) have NO MONEY... unless you add to the DEFICIT that the States already have...

Do you see where I am going here Larry?

How are you planning to achieve this goal when the States have NO Money?

USN Ret- 's ok. Mistakes happen. I mean, look at the 2000/2004 elections. Also- it doesn't help when guys like me don't always express themselves well. And speaking of not knowing 'who's on who's team' as Steve says- there is a lot of that going on lately. To witt: Tea Baggers vs Republicans! Palin vs. humans. Boehner vs. Americans. etc etc...

Pietro and kate

The same way all of us get ourselves to work each day. On or own dime. Do you get gov't subsidies to put gas in your car? Do you get gov't subsidies to pay for the bus each morning? Of course not. Why should people getting gov't assistance?

They can (again just like us now) learn how to balance thier budget and figure out a way to make sure they are getting to and from work reliably.

There another problem solved.

Now Kate onto your point about jobs being taken away that is a very valid point and I honestly dont have an answer for that.

The main advantage of the plan is that welfare recipients would cost the taxpayer less than the people currently doing the work...which hastens our race to be the next Malaysia and lets the "haves" pad their own pockets a little more thickly, a little faster.

I like your analogies. Too funny. I guess my skin is wearing a little thin with all the crap that has been on this board lately and did not look at the name. That is no excuse though, I will try not to be an A$$ agiain, there are too many on here already, we do not need another.

Thanks again for the understanding.

Larry, you are missing my point.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post. What I was eluding to was this - for the jobs to be created for the people on 'assistance', we need money - from somewhere - to create those jobs. You stated that there are probably State or Local jobs that can be filled with people who need the work.

I stated that State and Local governments - the ones that would be providing those jobs - don't have the cash to be able to fund those jobs.

Now, my questions are as follows: To FUND those jobs, do we raise taxes locally/Statewide? How are these jobs going to be funded if the State/local concern is cash strapped? Would we need to Federal Government to FUND these jobs?

I am interested in hearing your reply, Larry.

Larry, you do realize that you are essentially describing Roosevelt's public works plan from the 30's that has been roundly criticized by nearly every conservative from Ayn Rand to Goldwater to O'Reilly as pure marxism, right?

Michael if it was up to me we would do away with the whole gov't assistance system as a whole.

We would also reduce the tax burden on all Americans and make it to where everyone from the richest American to the poorst would pay a certain % every year (be it 10 or 12%) and that would be all the money the gov't (state and federal) would have to play with. If they run out of money then they would have to cut from a less needed program.

I would also cut SS and return all moneys paid to the gov't and let people be responsible for their own retirements.

This would mean that the only thing the fed. gov't would be in control of is strictly what the constitution allows them to be in charge of. Nothing more nothing less

Pietro,

You're missing the point. The people are already "hired", they're getting a check every month. It wouldn't be too hard to have them do something for it like litter pickup, cleaning parks, cutting grass, painting public buildings, etc. They should also be required to take random drug tests like the people paying the taxes to pay them.

soldier's dad

I don't think Pietro is missing the point. Are those whom are CURRENTLY performing those tasks going to be 'laid off'? Are their services no longer needed?

Larry,

All right. I think that would probably lead to a bunch of institutional poverty among the elderly once their bodies break down and they can't work anymore, but I doubt that any of us could really prognosticate about the end result of taking that sort of action. We do know what it was like for the elderly prior to the institution of the SSA and, despite what many would have you believe, it was never really a pretty situation.

People seem to believe that this country was always this prosperous, shining beacon of light, full of wealth and so forth. People either don't seem to believe or seem to never have read that even prior to the great depression, as late as around 1910 or so, over 40% of the nation drew less income than what was considered the national poverty level. Of course, a great deal of that had to do with the fact that we were a far more agrarian society and that a lot of people didn't have 'income' per se because their lifestyle was a lot more self-sufficient and relied a lot less on commerce than it does not.

When you grow your own food and make your own clothes and farm your own land, you really never see much 'money' per se, but you don't really notice the lack of it until you physically can't do it anymore. And back then, there was the assumption that a man's children would take over the farm when it was time, so 'retirement' was a far more 'family' based type of phenomenon than it tends to be now.

However, if you believe that doing away with public assistance altogether would be a better way, I can't really argue that, because what a man believes is what a man believes.

x

Darn it.. sorry about the above post.

Soldier's Dad - what you have proposed is something that Michael Thompson, Charlotte, NC has said - this is like the Public Works projects in the 30's or the 'Workfare' project(s) of the 70s. Would I be correct in that assumption?

Actually, I could support a 'Workfare' program, but the bottom line is this - how are the States going to FUND this? I mean, it would be a situation where the State or local concern will have to FUND supervisory capabilities to make sure that all of this work was being done. I understand that the recipient is getting a check from the state/local concern; will the check received be subject to the person actually havingto work? What about the disabled people who CANNOT work that are also a part of the program?

Soldier's Dad, the answer seems simplistic, so why haven't the local concerns done this? Why are they content to just issuinga check? States and local concerns are BROKE; they are having trouble funding Fire and Police departments.

THAT is my point.

Now how you YOU defend this program? Wouldn't that be considered SOCIALISM to have the state actually pay people to do work?

Inquiring minds wantto know...

WHEN DOES THE HATE STOP

This is what Republicans hate. They want the poor to stay poor, to be enslaved to Republican corporate masters, to be grateful for whatever scraps are tossed their way.

Perhaps if you didn't use such harsh rhetoric, your opponents on this board wouldn't respond in kind. You can't honestly believe that all Republicans are simply liars who wish to see the expansion of wealth for the upper crust at the expense of the poor. That's no more true than the conservatives saying that all Democrats are big-business hating socialists. Sure, some are liars, and all are spinners; they're politicians. But why can't Republicans honestly believe in pure capitalism, while Democrats believe in the public's welfare? That they're competing viewpoints doesn't make one side inherently evil and the other pure and good.

Because people don't argue capitalism versus socialism in terms of economic effects or theoretical ideas. The right wing has an emotional investment to capitalism that intrinsically ties the idea to their national identity, even though the basic economic principle of capitalism has almost nothing to do with any political principle and certainly nothing to do with democracy. Can a nation be essentially politically representative and have a planned economy? Of course. Can a nation conversely be dictatorial and have open markets? Of course.

However, when there comes a time when there is an emotional commitment to an idea like capitalism, that is when the idea becomes completely immersed in a bunch of nonsense notions that include virtually every theoretical principle that the adherent 'likes.'

Virtually no right winger knows what the actual principles of pure capitalism entail. And any moral person, when confronted with the principles of pure capitalism, reflexively recoils like Superman when encountering a chunk of Kryptonite. And when confronted with it, they are capable of feats of mental gymnastics that would make an olympian envious. In fact when confronted with pure capitalism's most odious characteristics, the right winger who is emotionally committed to pure capitalism will somehow immediately make the leap that this characteristic is not a characteristic of capitalism at all... it is in fact a characteristic of socialism because socialism is 'bad.'

The opposite is undoubtedly true on the other side as well. I imagine the committed Marxist, though fairly few of those actually remain in America, will generally only see the 'bad' in society and somehow make the logical leap that the 'bad' is cause by the prevalence of capitalism, just as the majority of the right wing have somehow leapt to the idiotic conclusion that the president is a 'marxist' because they don't like his policies and his policies = bad + marxism = bad, so the president's policies therefore = marxism.

It's a matter of emotional investment and how ignorant you are really willing to allow yourself to remain. If I thought for a minute that any right winger on this board had actually read the writings of Marx or had any knowledge of the Russian revolution or had any idea what socialism was actually about, I'd eat my shorts. All they no is that the nation was adversarial to it for about fifty years, so obviously it was inherently bad.

Good post, though I can't honestly say I understood it in its entirety. It's true that proponents of "capitalism" often have emotional ties to it and believe in bootstrapping your way to the top (though the shrinking of the middle class would suggest otherwise these days). Liberals have that same emotional attachment to their arguments; emotions seep in to heated conversation. However, toward the bottom it seems like you're suggesting that conservatives, when confronted with proper facts, would surely jump from the red ship, and anyone that doesn't is clinging to lies and sentiment. If that were true, why are Liberals not dominating the political landscape? What about the myriad of divisions within the Democratic party itself?

Because conservatism, even though modern Republicans have intrinsically tied the term to capitalism, isn't inherently about capitalism. Capitalism in its purest form is what leads to things like underage workers laboring for 18 hours a day paid with wages that are only good in the company store, living in company housing, and dying in easily preventable accidents that were not prevented because the company's management decided that the worker's inherent value was less than the inherent cost of implementing the measure used to prevent the worker's death. These things happen when capitalism in its purest form is allowed to hold sway simply because capitalism is neither a moral nor a political philosophy. It is an economic philosophy.

If you divorce the moral underpinnings from these particular practices, no one can deny that having the capacity to operate in this fashion, in which the company's labor costs are controlled by the amount of money they spend on products for the company store and the amount that they spend on rent for the land and buildings where they house their workers. Since the workers have no capacity to negotiate for higher wages, these costs are ultimately controlled and the business becomes more competitive in the open market.

However, conservatives, when discussing capitalism do not equate these practices, (which most of them if presented with them in these terms rightly find repugnant), with capitalism. In fact, they generally conflate these sorts of practices, which lead to institutional poverty, with the very economic philosophies that emerged to combat them - ie socialism and marxism. That is because the emotional attachment that exists between the conservative ideal and the capitalist ideal prevents the conservative thinker from making the distinction between the ideal of the philosophy - independence, self-sufficiency, financial freedom, the potential for wealth accrual - and the pragmatic reality that financial success in a competitive marketplace dictates that the competitors fail. And in a competitive marketplace that exists without any sort of moral underpinning - ie Rand's Utopian state - any profit-making entity will engage in nearly any sort of behavior, no matter how morally repugnant or how morally righteous, that will result in competitive success.

Liberalism does not dominate the political landscape because conservative communicators have effectively tied the idea of 'poverty' to the government institutions that have been constructed to combat institutional poverty, rather than the commercial instutions that have largely been responsible for the creation of institutional poverty. When the society was more agrarian, self-sufficiency was achieved through the ownership of small parcels of land that provided nearly everything that a family needed in order to survive. The family farm provided nearly everything, which ultimately nullified the need for that family to have much of a true cash flow. The family did not have much 'income' per se, but it is impossible to judge that family's poverty level the same way one judges the poverty level of an urban family that is not self-sufficient by virtue of what they can produce for themselvelves. And because of the interconnecting of the nation, that sort of agrarian self-sufficiency is impossible to sustain these days because of how intrinsic currency has become. These days, a family has to generate cash flow simply because of the number of monthly bills that a family accrues that did not exist in times heralded by conservatives as our potential model society of the future - a time when they tout Americans as being more self-sufficient and less-reliant on the government.

So once poverty itself becomes an idea that is tied to the government rather than tied to the practices of business that essentially create poverty by assuring the primacy of currency and then ensuring that they control the flow of currency to their workforces, the conservatives have effectively neutralized the liberals greatest argument - which is not that the marketplace itself is effectively flawed, but that government must become the mechanism that protects the citizens from the worst extremes of pure capitalism. People instinctively reject institutions that they associate with negative things. The conservatives have been very good since the middle 1800's at creating negative associations in people's minds with government institutions.

For example in the current healthcare debate, one of the most effective conservative arguments is the idea that a government institution in control of the healthcare of the nation will result in less 'freedom' or 'choice' for the average citizen. This argument completely ignores the reality that most citizens receive their current coverage through their employer. The employer's HR department chooses the insurance company, chooses the plan for the employee, sets the pricing scale for the employee, and determines exactly how much or how little coverage the employee will receive. In that scenario, the citizen actually has no real 'freedom' whatsoever, but the conservative thinker does not view it in those terms. There is a negative association with 'government' in their minds that dictates that even if the reality of the situation is the same in both cases - no real choice and no real freedom - he will somehow be 'more free' with the corporate institution making all of his decisions for him, rather than the government institution making all of his decisions for him.

As far as the divisons that exist within the democratic party, remember that this discussion began about adherence to a 'pure' economic philosophy. Well, purity is basically impossible to attain. Just as the conservative conflates counterintuitive ideas regarding capitalism and socialism, often resulting in a mistaken and false belief about the originating philosophy of whatever it is they view to be bad, the democrat is easily as capable of the same mistaken belief.

Look at the recent financial meltdown. There were a variety of institutions, both government and commercial that contributed to the collapse of the housing market. However, what institution is blamed the most in the mind of the conservative or the liberal generally has nothing to do with any research the person has done and more to do with their political affiliations. The conservative thinker is likely to place a great deal of blame on the institutions of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, because these are governmental instutions, while the liberal thinker is more likely to place a great deal of blame on the financial companies that bundled the toxic loans and sold them off. Both are likely to minimize the influence of the institutions that are more in line with their political leanings.

The truth is that both types of institutions contributed to the collapse, but emotional attachment prevents either type of thinker from viewing the situation in that manner - at least in any meaningful way.

And this sort of thing occurs on a micro level as well as on a macro level, which is generally what leads to the divisions within the democratic party. We are emotionally attached to the ideas that are important to us. If a man works in the ocean as a marine biologist and sees the ongoing extermination of marine species on a daily basis, his priority list as a liberal is inherently different from an anti-war activist or a gay man in the military or a community organizer devoting his time and life to combatting institutional poverty. Each of these people, simple because of the emotional investment that they have in their issues and the life they lead, view 'their' issue as the most important and when the administration disagrees with their priority listing, divisions occur.

A democrat is not the same everywhere you go. A left wing thinker in Oklahoma is vastly different from a left wing thinker in Oregon. Republicans aren't either. A right wing thinker in Utah is vastly different from a right wing thinker in Massachusetts. In a lot of respects, the Republican in Massachusetts has far more in common with the Democrat in Oklahoma than either do with the others who share their party affiliation.

Another great post. I misspoke in my first response, however. I shouldn't have said that conservatives believe in pure capitalism (as much as some might say they do). I'm sure we've all at least read about the conditions of the American worker during the Industrial Revolution.

You make a convincing argument as to why conservatives believe in the tenets of capitalism. The emotional ties to the American concept of their 40 acres and a mule are indeed great. I'll have to use it on some of my more conservative friends sometime! I'm still not convinced that conservatives have been able to so deftly control their constituents for the past century and a half. There are an infinite number of possibilities concerning the amount of regulation that can be placed on the American business - some believe in less and some believe in more. One couldn't find the facts necessary to conclude with certainty that a certain point on that spectrum is right, save that the far ends are indeed wrong as you pointed out.

Allegedly, Karen, to blame for the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. In reality, Cheney and company. But you probably already knew that Ms. Hughes.

"A human group transforms itself into a crowd when it suddenly responds to a suggestion rather than to reasoning, to an image rather than to an idea, to an affirmation rather than to proof, to the repetition of a phrase rather than to arguments, to prestige rather than to competence." -- Jean-Francois Revel, (1924-2006) French politician, journalist, author, philosopher

Propaganda. It's strange how people won't see through the lies. Right here in America. There isn't much they won't fall for as long as it includes racism, bigotry, hate. Fox Propaganda knows this. Their viewers don't. There is an election coming up in November.

Wow, powerful stuff Pat. And so true.

And as Usual.... Change the subject.. try and put the blame on someone else when the real subject should be just how Failed the democrats that control Congress and the Democrat in the White house have screwed up.. Try and Shift the story all you want but we know what you are doing. We are staying Focused on the Failures of this Administration and this Failed Congress.. all Controlled by the Democrats...

Steve, we're in agreement that changing the subject is wrong, but we don't seem to see eye to eye on who's actually doing it. President Bush was right when he said that we were fighting terrorism, not Islam. Now the forces who really would prefer to be at war with one of the world's most popular religions seem to be winning their day in the spotlight. What will we as Americans win from this? Great, it stirs up "the base" and maybe drives a few more voters to the polls this Fall. Chances are it'll drive even more recruits to al Qaeda. http://www.examiner.com/homeland-security-in-national/for-islamic-fundamentalists-what-better-recruiting-tool-than-the-debate-over-the-ground-zero-mosque

again John. My Focus is on the administration that is leading this country right now. Continue to bring up the past President because you dont want the American People concentration on the ONE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.. Divert Divert DIVERT.. Obama is the president. the policies Set before us are his. The american People dont want it. . they have seen what it is and are speaking out agasint it..

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana

Which pretty well sums up the hopes of the Republican Party.

John B,, WE understand that yo0u wish to Talk about the Republicans Party . .But they are not in Power. it is the Democrats that control the White House. The House of Representatives. .and the Senate... It is the Democrats that are passing bills that have added 5 Trillion Dollars to the NAtional Debt since 2007.. it is the Democrats that the American People are Focused ON. WE the American People See just how Bad the DEMOCRATS ARE.. we know you dont want to talk abou them.. But the American People are Focused on the FAILURE of the Democrats..

Steve505729,

Katrina was a very powerfull hurricane, it cause billions of dollars in damages to families, and their lives, at this point it's a work in progress, it still NOT cleaned up.

In my analogy, Bush is like Katrina, he caused a lot of damage between 2000-2oo8, it's far from cleaned up so it's a work in progress, I want to start cleaning up for the betterment of ALL,but you refuse to see any damage anywhere.

Deficits don't matter, I think Cheney said that, I guess not ,since we had 2 UNFUNDED wars, UNFUNDED MEDICARE prescription drug plan passed by repubs, a 10 year tax cut paid for with money borrowed from China, and a complete collapse of the banking/financial system in the country.

Bush did come up with a 3 page no strings attached plan to fix it all before he left, the bank bailout that all you guys scream about daily. I give him credit for this, it was the right thing to do, try something (no matter how unpopular it may be) to save us from the abyss we were sure to go into by doing nothing (your current plan).

Before you can say it, I will, blame it on Bush, why do I say it? Because it's true!!

Monty Python's Flying Circus once presented The Argument Sketch in which Michael Palin goes to a clinic to have an argument. He ends up arguing with John Cleese who simply contradicts everything that Palin says...

"Yes it is."

"No it isn't."

Sadly, this is what many have become.

The Republican economic policies of the last fifty years HAVE TURNED OUT WELL for those that they were intended to benefit.

They are paying themselves to sabotage the prospects of the middle-class.

Sad but true Paul, sad but true.

P.S. Ah Monty Python . . . what a perfet analogy of politics in America Da Noid!

Nashville, terrific post!

I agree, what passes for argument/debate on the issues today is simply both sides repeating their talking points and calling it a debate. Too often the media hosts fail to challenge either side.

I hope I haven't sent blank replies--apologies if I have.

The Republican tax policies are like a lot of their policies--they sound ok in theory but in practice they just don't work. Less government regulation sounds good, but then you get Wall Street meltdowns over unregulated instruments like derivatives. Trickle down economics and a lower tax rate on interest, dividends and capital gains sounds good until you find out that the wealthy just hold on to the money. As Warren Buffett put it, does it make sense to pay 15% taxes on dividends while a worker pays 20-35% on wages?

"Is this the right place for an argument?"

"I told you, once."

"No you didn't."

So true, Steeler Fan. Much of modern Conservatism sounds great but just doesn't work. Many Conservatives maintain that it just hasn't been done right, but how many decades to we have to experiment before admitting that the experiment failed?

Nash, great post and argument, it definetly persuaded me.

The Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest 2% are the only tax cuts that will be allowed to expire. This will save us from adding over $3 trillion to the deficit. Now if only Boehner, McConnell and the rest of the republicans could explain why they are consistently worried about the deficit but have no problem extending the tax cuts for the wealthiest 2% which would result in this increase to the deficit they claim to be so worried about.

They only "worry" about deficits when the democrats are in power. The republicans have been the most fiscally irresponsible with none of the policies enacted by the last administration and congress being paid for. Not one.

We understand that Democrats wish to take more money from the American People that they have Earned to pay for the overspending by this Democrat controlled Congress and we understand that if you let the Bush Tax cuts sunset that this will pay for those Deficts.. We also understand that if you dont allow them to sunset that the Democrats will have Added 3 trillion Dollars to the National Debt with their over Spending.. . WE understand this.

Steve-505729

This is where you seem to be confused. We Democrats want to take more money from the American People to pay for the overspending of Republicans that occurred during the Previous administrations. You can't accuse us of wanting to pay for OUR spending now AND claim we are saddling future generations with debt. The fact is,...the debt has backed up for over 30 years of failed Republican policies that GREW that debt and we need to set tax rates at a level to encompass the prior spending!

again Clara you can't continue all you want to Defend this Failed Administration but the American people dont buy your lies and Deciet. We have Watched for the past 1.9 months and are not IMPRESSED. 75 percent of the American People believe that we as a Country are heading in the Wrong Direction with the policies of this Administration. You can continue to try and Change the subject but we are Focused on what the problem is. .. And that problem is This ADministration and This Democrat Controlled Congress...

Actually it's only 58.5% who believe the country is headed in the wrong direction. Not good enough but substantially better than the 85% plus who felt that way late in GW Bush's term. http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/issue-rdwt.php

Oh, and there's nothing in the question that specifies whether it's Administration policies or something else that dictates the answer. At this point it's at least partly attributable to a Congress that's been deliberately gridlocked by Republicans.

Sorry Steve, pulling numbers out of thin air without back up will get you called out here on FR.

Nashville_fan

I was taken aback that First Read put it so plainly. You don't often hear mainstream journalists report a simple fact that counteracts a political movement's central thesis. I'm not talking bias or punditry, I'm talking just reporting the facts, and letting people draw their own conclusion. Facts like "oh by the way, our constitution guarentees freedom of religion which means no court is going to block creating a Muslim center/mosque on private property, whether it makes the neighbors uncomfortable or not, however, it is also legal to picket the center, as freedom of assembly is also guarenteed."

Amy,

Loved your comment . . . I think what you are describing used to be called "journalism"!

lol

To that I'll add a CHEERS to First Read's excellent hosts for telling it like it is.

You don't often hear mainstream journalists report a simple fact that counteracts a political movement's central thesis. I'm not talking bias or punditry, I'm talking just reporting the facts, and letting people draw their own conclusion. Facts like "oh by the way, our constitution guarentees freedom of religion which means no court is going to block creating a Muslim center/mosque on private property, whether it makes the neighbors uncomfortable or not, however, it is also legal to picket the center, as freedom of assembly is also guarenteed."

Unfortunately, the networks are owned by large corporate entities (Disney, GE, News Corp, etc.) and are driven by the dollar.

How do you get the dollar? Get ratings.

How do you get ratings? Create controversy.

Yes, the answer to the mosque is simple...they have the right to build it and can't be legally stopped and you have the right to disagree and protest and that can't be taken away from you.

I had to point out something simillar to a friend of mine just last week. He was up in arms because the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a conviction in a federal case of "Stolen Valor"...that is, a man was charged with a federal crime because he claimed to have served and received honors for his service in the military when it was not true. The 9th Circuit claimed that the "Stolen Valor" act violated his 1st Amendment rights.

I simply said the same 1st Amendment that gives him the right to falsely claim he received medals for valor gives you the right to call him an arse for doing so.

Amen, Clara.

JoWhaaaaaana asked me yesterday what the Dem's plan was, and I didn't get time to reply. I'll do it here: For starters, the Dem's plan is NOT TO REPEAT the Bush Plan. Or, fo r that matter, trickle-down voodo economics. Howzzat for a good starting point?

Clara, Boehner would also have tanning beds installed--wait, maybe they already have them. Seriously, in my view, each party's base is fairly solid and the fight is over the middle. So I can't believe they think this economic argument is the way to win the middle. Continued tax cuts for the wealthiest just shouldn't be a rallying cry. How is it that they continually get the people who are not among the wealthiest to support policies that benefit the wealthiest?

Clara

Your comment is so funny. LOL, in other words happy hour for Boehnor & co. would be to Ba-rock bash around the clock.

Drive By;

I misunderstood your post before. Feisty clued me in. If that was a sarcasm then is was a very very good one - kudos's. Again I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Yours in Service,

Navy

Perfect, Clara. LOL. You summed up the GOP's plan for America's future!

Shame on me for not thanking Feisty earlier, too, USN- Ret.!

How about it, Redhead- a trip to the malt shop is in order, maybe?? I'm buing.

How about it, Redhead- a trip to the malt shop is in order, maybe?? I'm buying

It would be my pleasure... but we can't tell the large mouth a@@ m'kay!

You know how jealous she gets... especially when it comes to the 'malt shop'! ;0)

are we talking 'malt' liquor? Cuz' if we are, I'm in!

Maybe we invite Boehner and he'll pick up the tab, or have one of his lobbyist buddies make it 'disappear'?

Alan,

word

(pretty soon we'll have a whole sentence!)

How neat to learn that you are a partier, Grimey--I'm adjusting my image of you to take this in!!

You raise a point about politics and, maybe life in general--you are judged by the company you keep. The problem with elections is that we have to make a judgment about how a candidate will behave while in office. We have come to believe we can't trust what most politicians say so we look for other clues. I think this is why so many politicians trot out their spouses & families, even pets---I must be a nice guy or gal if I have this nice family, they seem to say. I would like to think the electorate has moved beyond this but the conventional wisdom hasn't.

Party on!!

Ahh, to be young again. If I'm up at 3:00a these days, it's cuz' I'm sewing a costume or helping a young one. Occassionally, I've had a few nights that late at work; but it has been positively YEARS since I was out partying at 3:00a.

Way to make us old timers feel the pain, there, Grimey!

At least you didn't vote for Rubio. And for that, I thank you!

Good questions, Frank "Grimey". I gave up those 3 AMers years ago but I do remember some good times!

Seems to me the partier image is politics to avoid the issues.

Grimey, Grimey......first there was that not knowing about Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown last week, and now this - you really know how to make us geezers feel old! :)

Just kidding - I really enjoy your posts. In answer to this one, I guess I'd say I wouldn't care about what a candidate was doing at 3:00 am as long as it was legal, he/she wasn't hurting their family in any way, and they were able to show up at work on time the next day with a clear head and ready to put in another hard-working, productive day on behalf of their constituents. Unfortunately, you'll find that the older you get, the harder that is to keep doing - much as we all thought it would never happen to us.

That being said, enjoy it while you can! But really, as someone who's apparently old enough to be your mother, I have to tell you to stay away from that Lohan twit - she's nothing but trouble!

Grimey, you made me smile, if only because it sounds like you are contemplating a run for office and wondering how your partying will effect the outcome. My advice: I think you should get in a little earlier. I just watched CSI Miami last night and three characters out on the town for a bachelor party got into a lot of trouble. You don't want to end up in a fountain, hand cuffed to your friend and not remembering you stole a rich guy's limo with a stolen painting in it the night before, now do you?

Oh no...sorry if I made anyone feel old! :-( Didn't mean too.

Honestly, I was curious as to how people feel about the person vs. the position. Personally, I have no problem with someone not being a model citizen...provided they haven't done something truly awful, illegal, etc.

Steeler Fan...yeah...my wife and I enjoy partying quite a bit. The beauty of having both of our sets of parents living close by and able to watch the kids.

Joanna...no worries, I promise to stay away from Lindsay.

And Amy...I have NO desire to run for office. I like my job and I'd prefer not to ever thrust my family into the spotlight like that. While I may party pretty hard, I do have a wife and two kids. Thankfully, I haven't had any CSI moments yet, although I have done some pretty crazy things in Miami, Vegas, New York, etc, that would surely haunt me in any political run for office!! :-)

Remember Grimey... what happens in Vegas... stays in Vegas... and Miami... and New York... ;0)

You truly are a 'rare' breed... a Republican who likes to have fun!

It would be nice if you could give some of the other posters around here some tips on how to lighten up once and awhile! lol

OK Feisty...you asked for it...Grimey's tips on having fun:

1. Don't be afraid to laugh at yourself.

2. Don't take life too seriously.

3. Most of the people you run into in public aren't going to remember who you are or what you did within 24 hours.

4. Just start talking to people...if they don't want to talk to you, so what!? If they do, maybe you'll learn something.

5. Margaritas!

As for Vega$...oh my...if I listed the things I've done there, you're opinion of me would REALLY change!

OK Feisty...you asked for it...Grimey's tips on having fun:

Amen Grimey! Those truly are words to live by!

As for my opinion of you... hmmm... let's just say... maybe someday we can swap Vegas stories over those famous Margarita's of yours! ;0)

Of course I'll bring the Giordano's....

Uh, Grimey, I didn't know The Hangover was based on actual events. Enjoy the residuals, buddy - you've earned them!

LOL!

I think that it means that FOX is a terrorist breeding ground :)

Because their embarrassed that they have to live off the Government Patrick. Do you remember the guy you grew up with that thought he wasn't as good as someone else because he had to rely on that person for a job, and all he ever did was put that person down. That's what Alaska is doing, putting the rest of America down.

TRR

My you Demrats have a very short memory. I believe you treated Bush with the same kind of courtesy.

Funny. You guys don't want us to talk about Bush anymore, but you love to bring him up as justification for your b!tching about Obama's efforts to get the "car out of the ditch" while, all the while you guys drain the oil out of its engine and cut its timing belt. Hypocritical saboteurs is what you are.

mowdy5gs

So all the money that was made by investors in Apple, Microsoft, IBM was just a lucky coincident? Now please tell me how Meryll Lynch took advantage of the situation. Maybe you mean how the government screwed the General Motors investors.

C_D_

From marxists like you.

which is hysterical, C_D_J, when you consider that we just wrested it forward from the minions like afloatinasea.

There is still the democrat candidate that will be running against McCain in November. These are just the primaries. There is still hope that the old,pale, not a maverick will not be re-elected in Nov.

Randy-181

As much as I disagree with you, this one you are correct on.

Thank You, at least you are honest. I'll be honest with you, this 2 party system in our country is really not working out at all. There is so much bickering, it's almost not worth it to post anything. I actually give Obama a lot of credit, because he is really trying to turn things around form the Bush era, but personally I wouldn't want to be in shoes.

Randy-18

I believe she said to phase it out gradually and have a privatized system. But of course since you are a big spender of other people's money, this would not be attractive to you. So you would like to keep a bankrupt system in place. You libs sure have a funny way of trying to resolve some of our critical financial problems.

I just don't believe in privitizing the system, because many people including myself, lost a lot of money in the stock market, and that is what they mean by privitizing, putting the system in the hand of the stock market, and you know that is a real mess. If they did do that investment, and there is a crash of some type, we all lose. I am not as liberal as you think. I am for the dealth penatly, & against all this immigration that is coming into this country. I am actually an independent, but I tend to lean to the left, because I lost my career with a large company after 30 years of service, so it's pretty scary out there.

Gee afloatinsea, where were you a few days ago when we were demonstrating how easily the gap in Social Security could be filled with minor tinkering. Just like a Conservative to want to kill a program that's reduced poverty among the elderly by 75%. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1863

afloatinasea seems to have nuthin' but a big mouth. Typical teabaggin' wingnut...!

Pathetic. Typical. No pity.

Been out to sea too long. Heh! Heh!