Yesterday was my wedding anniversary. When I got home from dinner, I turned on MSNBC as I do ever night to watch Keith and Rachael.

I cannot describe the feeling of pride and happiness I had as our last combat troops move out of Iraq. How proud I am of our young men and women for their sacrifice to keep America’s Freedom and that they are finally coming home to their friends and families. This is a great day for America. As I was listening to Rachael a weird feeling slowly came over me, a feeling I can best describe as one of dreaded emptiness and sadness. Feelings I have not had in a very long time.

I started to think about those troops that are not coming home. Those still in other wars. Those wounded and maimed defending this country. Those who paid the ultimate sacrifice so that we may be free, a freedom that all too many take for granted. Those who had children while they were away defending us that never held or in some cases never even seen their children, never got a chance to tell them how much they loved them and what they were doing was for them and their country.

Then I started to get angry. I had thoughts of misguided politics and how so few people can put so many in harms way, too often with faulty reasoning, no foundation in facts, and in some cases just pure lies . There are and have been times when War is not only unavoidable but must be fought to keep all people free. Then again there are times when this is not the case. Why so many lives have been changed forever and for what? I started to think about the days that are to follow and if people are going to celebrate the good news or are some going to continue to use our troops as political chips to further some political agenda?

Let us forget our politics and whether we feel the war just or unjust today. Lets welcome our troops home and pay honor to those who have fallen for a job well done. Let us remember and continue to support those that are still to come home and pray that it is soon.

WELCOME HOME TROOPS. A JOB WELL DONE AND WE ARE ALL PROUD OF YOU AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE AND SACRIFICE.

Well said Navy: As a veteran, you have greater insight than I.

Ron:

Thank you and thank you for your support for our troops. It helps them retain a sense of sanity in a forsaken hellhole.

Yours in Service.

Bush, Cheney and Rove belong in jail for what they've done to this Country and are people. The sacrifices our soldiers made for these egotistic fools can never be valued or repaid. Put them in jail.

Vet ~ If I haven't said this before, I'll say it now ~ Thank you so much for your service. I have never agreed with the Iraq war and have only deep admiration and gratitude for the brave individuals who have wilingly sacrificed so much out of their own personal sense of patriotism, loyalty, and honor. I salute all who have served, not only in this war, but in all wars.

And a BIG ditto to your welcome home to the troops.

AND congratulations on your wedding anniversary. A successful marriage is no small achievement, either.

Operation Iraqi Freedom Nears End

IRAQ – big losses no win

My thanks to all the brave people that served: Americans, US Allies, and Iraqis

The Iraqis are free or are they? Is this our great victory?

My emotions are high. I am happy, I am sad, I am disappointed.

The losses are so big that it will take years to count all of them but I must list a few:

Over 4,400 brave Americans killed

Over 30,000 brave Americans wounded

Many brave Allied troops killed and wounded

Even more innocent Iraq citizens killed and wounded

Iraq is left in rubble with many vital infrastructure systems in need of repair - Bagdad only has electricity 4 hours a day

As of today they do not have a fully formed government months after their last elections

The Taliban and al Qaeda still walk among the people

At least a billion of our tax dollars gone - more will follow

50,000 Americans remain in Iraq as part of Operation New Dawn in danger and will stay until at least December 2011

Iran has more influence in Iraq now than it had in the last 30 years

Let's see how the G NO P'ers on here treat the news of the Last Combat leaving Iraq. They'll wrap themselves in a Flag & continue to Lie about a President, That has kept another of his Campaign Promises.

There is No Mission Accomplished, because the Mission was Redifined way too many times.

I'll call it what it was, "the Murder of Saddam Hussein"!

You Betcha!

Ron, last night as i watched those troops leaving, i though what could have been for over 4000 men that were killed, they were good soldiers who were doing their duty for the country they loved.

Then Ron i got mad!!!

George Bush, i hope he understands that lives are never going to be the same because of him, he lied to those boys, who trusted him with their lives.

CNN showed the Mission accomplished banner, as they reflected back to 2003 as our glorious president said mission accomplished and for the insurgence to bring it on, and baby they did.

President Obama when he said we would be out by first august 09 they changed it the august 10, i though he was crazy for thinking we could get out that fast. i figured he was making one of those campain promised they all make to get elected, but he did it. for the last 18 months he has very quietly moved 90thousand out. He has to keep 50thousand there to train and assist, but we all know that they will not be out next year or any time soon.

Thanks George, you have given us a nother Korea. John McCain was right we are going to be there for 50 years.

Last i need to ask you Obama haters out there, can you give this Man credit for bring our combat troops home ?

before you answer don't give me that the Sruge is what did it. because we should have NEVER BEEN there!!!!

I had many of the same thoughts last evening--how proud of our young people I felt yet how hollow at what a waste of our people and money the whole effort was. And almost as bad as the deaths are the people who suffered injuries, some they will live with the rest of their lives and I'm sure as years go on there will be those with PTSD. So a huge price that we paid for what? On the coverage, I thought Col. Jacobs, who I respect, was as critical of the military as I've heard him be.

um, guys? Hate to break up the party, but:

those are just the COMBAT TROOPS. We still have plenty of troops in Iraq, and willhave for the next, who knows how long. Kind of like Germany, Japan, South Korea-get it?

Oh, and they aren't coming home-they going to Kuwait-so as to be close enough to go back in when they are needed. Which should be sooner, rather than later.

Buy y'all go on back to your beer and skittles now.

Example # 1, is NJ.

More to come.

No Joe No Brains:

You are one of the most dispicable people I have ever seen. JUST COMBAT TROOPS. ANd by the way MSNBC just said they are flying HOME.

Go crawl back under that smelling slimmy rock you crawl out of every day to pollute this board with your lies and hate. You are totally repugnant and I feel nothing but contempt and pity for you.

Watching the troops leave last night brought a tear to my eye. How proud we as Americans have to be for those troops. Welcome home. It would be great to have all the troops home, but we still have 50,000 troops in Germany from after WW2 so I guess expecting that everyone could leave might be unrealistic.

I do hope that we learn from the mistakes of this war. That never again do we invade a country before we have been attacked. That is not what the US has been about.

Congrats Navy Vet. I hope you and your wife are happy and healthy.

Good post Ron.

I would add that there are spoils to this war. If, and that is one huge if, the Iraqi people can achieve a democratic government and better themsleves and help bring an end to the desire of some to harm us and stabilize the region, then lies or not, it will have been worth it.

Happy anniversary Navy. I know that if you do as fine a job with celebrations as you do with words that your conjugal bliss is assured for another year at least. Good wishes for many more.

No Joe - Leave it to you to find the cloud in the silver lining. Is disagreeing with the left really more important to you than just adding your own simple thank you to our troops?

Everyone else - I'll just repeat what I said on another thread last evening when this news first broke - to those who are coming home now, to those who already came back and especially to those who never will - a heartfelt thanks.

No Jo: Navy said it better than I. Are you really that hollow and empty inside; just caring for yourself and your family? You are pathetic.

Us Navy DV These Nuts!

Only 14000 troops left yesterday and they have been drawing troops down for years!!

And why are they coming home because of our last GOOD president and his TROOP SURGE so come on libbys give the man the credit he deserves!!

Your pathetic love fest(all 6 of you) on this blog makes me want to PUKE!! Not to mention the fact that they are being replaced with Blackwater or other contractors!! I woudlnt be surprised if they come home for a week and then POOF right back to Afghanistan!! So dont do something that has already been planned for 3 years and then take credit for it just to try and save your sorry ASS because its too LATE!! Not the way the DEMS thought their Cramming down our throats LIberal Minority Gay Socialist Nazi agenda would work out HUH!! So your PATHETIC post are comical and make my day all the time so keep it up and we will see what tune your post are on November 3rd and we can get this country where it needs to be AS FAR RIGHT AS POSSIBLE!!!!! GOD BLESS OUR SOLDIERS and the MANY TRUE AMERICANS!!!!

Regardless of where you point the finger... the Bush administration and a bipartisan Congress sent our troops to Iraq. Hind sight is 20-20 and I'd like to think there are very few people who think we should have gone in light of what is known today. I would much rather let that region continue to fight amongst itself and have nothing to do with it... ever. But with the knowledge that nuclear weapons and power can affect the world adversely... the question is where do we draw the line.

I hate the statement that we went over there and gave Iraqi's their freedom. Freedom is something you can't give somebody and expect them to understand its value... what we've done is force a concept on a people that don't understand. America fought for its independence and its freedom which is vastly different for the Iraqis. They will buckle and fall to Iran or to the next dictator, and short of another pointless investment - the cycle will continue. It would have been infinitely different if the Iraqi people were fighting a revolution and we went to assist.

I can understand the want for justice and revenge for 9-11, but this isn't a fight we can win. Not in Afganistan, not in Iraq, not anywhere... this is a belief structure that is older and more entrenched than our own nation. These modern day crusades will do nothing for our cause in the long run.

At the end of next week, my cousin's unit (USM), deploys to Pakistan, and will then proceed onto Afganistan. My good friend and neighbor (USM) deploys to Afganistan in November. My other good friend (USM) is on his fifth tour over these years, currently deployed in Afganistan.

The military is a place where politics doesn't belong - and that has been our continued mistake ever since the Cold War.

Yes she is Ron, typical RightWingtalibanBibleThumpingTeaPartier,"It's all About Her".

Her kind, will Rot In Hell.

Scole Thank you for getting on here this morning and reminding us that not just the fine men and women that we have serving now that we are trying trying to send out a little wellwishes to but also those of us who spent a little time in years past ensuring your right to go any where to spout such unmitigated Horsecr@p did not waste our time. Does kind of give me a little pause to wonder what kind of Jacka$$ would go so far out of his way to exercise such complete ingnorance however. Here's hoping you have a good day today and when you get home tonight your Mama runs out from under the porch and bites you on the leg.

blah blah blah it's Bush's fault blah blah blah....more liberal crap.

Look, Bush didn't put us in Iraq, Israel did. Saddam was threatening Israel and if you don't think that gets the US moving, you are sadly mistaken. Go ahead and blame Bush, but it didn't matter who was president...we were going there.

Good post US Navy - Happy Anniversary and many many more to come!!!

Joe the same well wishes to Scole apply to you. Why don't you'll boys take that horsesh!t somewhere where somebody wants to hear it

I am always grateful that we have people willing to put their lives on the line to serve our country. They're one of the many things that make America great, but indispensable because they are our protection. As such we need to be responsible in how we use them. For some they were a tool to be used for political purposes, personal gain, and blind ambition. Shame on them. The civilian command should always use the troops as a last resort and only with a clearly defined, important mission that is honest and open.

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" John Kerry

Scole-529355

And why are they coming home because of our last GOOD president and his TROOP SURGE so come on libbys give the man the credit he deserves!!

Let me correct you one on thing as you put it....our last GOOD president. Bush doesn't deserve any credit that you are giving him.

Scole and no joe all blow are just mad this morning because Fox couldn't pull it's self away from it's hate broad cast long enough last night to honor our troops coming home. I turned over to Fox last night during a commercial and during the 2 minutes I watched hannity told 5 lies to stir up hate, how can anyone watch such crap. BTW: CNN also honored our troops by broadcasting it.

Fox is a sad excuse for broadcasting. They've made themselves The 1 million dollar teabagging republican party. All other broadcasting organization should repudiate Fox for not broadcasting and honoring our troops.

Welcome home to our brave men and women! We are overjoyed you are coming back where you belong. You may have to go back to that part of the world again, atlas, it is what you signed up to do and it is your job - I just want to thank you for doing it and doing it so well.

Joe-755363 - I don't think Israel is the reason we went to Iraq, if I remember correctly it had a lot to do with that statement : "So we did not find weapons of mass destruction, he did try to kill my Daddy!" And that is when the hell began.

I do think we base far to many of our foreign policy decisions around Israel and it continues to cause us troubles. A friend of mine at church said she supports Israel because her Mama told her we always had to, my question was and still is, ok, so who did we support before the end of WWII? There was no Israel until after WWII and that excuse has become rather defunked to me.

Welcome home troops and thank you for your service and sacrifices. Some of us here are not so articulate in their thoughts and still spout hate but I believe in their hearts they are welcoming you home.

Indeed...

How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" John Kerry

I was a little emotional last night watching the convoy and thinking about the 4415 men and women that would not be coming home and how they did not have to die.

It was the ego of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney that insisted on this terrible tragedy that masqueraded as a war.

I pray that the United States never again engages in something as heinous as this mass murder of innocent servicemen and civilians. As General Powell was quoted as saying, "You break it you own it". Yes, we own Iraq in all of it's brokeness and we will be there for years.

Welcome home to the fortunate ones that can be proud of their contribution and sacrifice!

Yay. I am glad the combat troops have left Iraq. It frosts me that they had to sneak out in a secret convoy in the dead of night with a heavily armed aerial escort, but, better out than not.

With the joy of seeing the last combat batallion come out of Iraq, there was sorrow too.

Sorrow for the young men and women who did not come home to their families hugs and kisses; instead they came home in a coffin while their familes and loved ones mourned their loss and sacrifice.

Sorrow for the young men and women who came home with injuries which will affect them for the rest of their days; not only physical injuries but psychological injuries as well. We cannot give these young men and women their lives back, no matter how hard we try or how much we would like to.

Sorrow for the innocent Iraqis who lost their lives, and those who are now maimed for life. We were told we were making their lives better, but do we really know that we have? Yes, Saddam was an evil man, but now Iran has gained a foot-hold into Iraq and this might indeed be the United States worst nightmare. At best, Iraq might well end up being a puppet state of Iran.

Last night, MSNBC had a retired colenel on talking about how Donald Rumsfeld, then Secretary of Defense, struck battalions of troups from the war plan to take over Iraq; Rumsfeld was counting on air power to do the job. The problem was people left did not fall in line with us as expected. Also, disbanding the Republican guard and not accepting any of them in the new army meant we had to train from the ground up. Were these monumental mistakes? Only time will truly tell.

President Obama did live up to his promise to bring the combat troops home. I'm sure we'll hear the "But..." chorus from the right. Yes, we'll have a presence in Iraq for many years to come. I believe that then Secretary of State Colin Powell said it best; the Pottery Barn principal (You broke it; you bought it.).

The reasons given to go into Iraq were doubtful at best. First, Saddam had a part in 9/11; then he had WMD. History will show that these reasons were manufactured at best. Then the reason was to bring democracy to Iraq. The problem is that Iraq is alot older than the United States; our democracy is foreign to them, to say the least. Some will say the real reason for the war in Iraq was profit; does Halliburton come to mind???????

Hopefully, our government will have learned their lesson after this battle. Unfortunately, I don't hold out a lot of hope for this. There have been too many innocent victims; Valerie Plame comes to mind. The soldiers and Iraqi people were victims as well.

So, let's be sure to thank our troops when they get home. They did the job they were sent to do, and did it to the best of their ability whether they agreed with it or not. Hopefully, calm minds will prevail before we send them in harm's way again.

My my what short memories we have. When we went into Iraq there was broad based support from congress including Clinton and Kerry (the one that served in Viet Nam and got three purple hearts without ever going to the hospital) and the UN as well.

The media tried from the beginning to restart the protests of Viet Nam and were not successful except for a few like Sheehan peeing on her sons grave.

Supporting the troops without supporting the mission is just plain COWARDICE.

I am glad our guys are out but the I am not certain we are leaving peace behind.

WELCOME HOME!

USN Vet Ret:

Such a touching and emotional speech from you in post 1.1. I particularily like the part where you write,

"Let us forget our politics and whether we feel the war was just or unjust today..."

That was at 9:24 this morning. I must have been good while it lasted, all the kumbaya warm fuzzies you got from your psychotic peanut gallery of mindless drones (yeah, you know who I mean). It even lasted a whole two minutes! Next post from you, number 6, at 9:26 starts out with'

"The Republican Answer for 2010 - More of the same failed agenda of GW Bush, just BIGGER..." and goes downhill from there.

So just what part of "Let us forget our politics..." did you not understand? You wrote it (or maybe you just copied it from someone else and didn't really understand it). Or were you just blathering lies to perk up the peanut gallery? Or are you a "do as I say not what I do" kinda guy? It wasn't even in reponse to someone, so you can't even say 'Da,i, got cranked up over stunodds comment." In any case it certainly proves one thing: lies, copies, arrogant, hypocrite ... yep, definately a democrat.

You all missed the best part of the stories. 1 in 5 Americans thinks Obama is a Muslim. Now that's funny. Thanks for the laugh First Dweebs.

Amen to that amused.

Receiving bible verses on your Blackberry doesn't make you a christian. My, oh my. Maybe it's true, only the elephants can save us now.

How pitiful old fat guy, you can't welcome our troops home without spouting your Fox hate.

And just what is it you think is so funny Bob? Is it that 1 in 5 Americans are stupid, or is it that your stupid or both?

Navy vet, thanks for your service; however, if you are getting your info from Olbermann and Maddow, you are greatly misinformed. I too, am glad for our troops, and sad for the ones not coming home, but I think Bush acted on the best intel he had at that time, and remember, most of the libs voted to go ahead with this military action at the time, only to show their great 20/20 hindsight later, so don't let them fool you.

Be happy for our great men and women who served for us, some paying the ultimate price. But don't let Olbermann and Maddow and NBC fool you, they don't report news anymore, they slant it to their agenda.

Ron,

Your position is ignorant. Here are the facts. Saddam was at war with us and had chemical WMDs which he had every intention of using given the opportunity. We knew, the world knew, and he knew everyone else knew. He didn't want to get caught with them. So before we invaded, he dumped them in the Tigris River. They flowed away and dispersed just like all of the leaked oil in the Gulf. So when we got there, we didn't find them because they were gone. And just like the Gulf, although we thoroughly checked the Tigris for lingering signs of chemical WMD traces, none could be found because of the lapse of time and relative amount. (Remember, the total raw stockpile-enough liquid and powder to kill tens of thousands of people-could have been all stored in one small room). Like the millions of gallons of crude were a drop in the bucket in the Gulf, so too were Iraq's WMDs in the Tigris.

I suppose you want my source for this. His name is Vladimir. He is a Russian. He was a Colonel in the Red Army during the Cold War. He is one of those guys who can kill you without leaving a trace. He is a Medical Doctor. And his speciality during his military career...that's right, chemical WMDs.

x

Yo MO, wheres curly?

You ignorant piece of crap! I don't think that clown is Muslim. A big turd with arms, legs and a mouth maybe.

Perhaps if he didn't keep so much hidden behind closed doors people would know more. I don't think the ignorant mosque comment helped him either.

Oh, Vladimir the Russian!

Tell me another story Daddy Joe, that was a good one!

How about some ACTUAL validation instead of "trust me, I'm an anonymous internet user and I know a guy."

THANK YOU AMERICA AND ALL OUR BRAVE TROOPS FOR YOUR COURAGE, HONOR AND SERVICE!!!!!!!

From the opening salvo of "Shock and Awe" to the Surge to todays ending the war in Iraq we are all proud of our efforts. War is a very difficult and controversial event. No one looks at, evaluates a situation and enters a war without scrupulous investigation. Regardless of your politic the War in Iraq will probably be our last true miitary achievement. This started as a war and is ending as such with a victory to liberate a country, within UN guidance, under rule of a ruthless and sadistic dictator and assist it in having the opportunity of becoming a democracy.

The comments on this post range from tearful reminders of the sacrifice and sorrow many have endured from the brave sons, daughters, fathers, mothers and all the others who served so valiantly to some of the most hateful UN-America filth I have ever read. I never served in the military but regardless I ALWAYS approach a member of the military I see on the street and shake his or her hand and humbly THANK THEM for their service. When I read the condescending and treasonous remarks from some on here based PURELY on their political brainwashing I get sick to my stomach. You know who you are. However, as much as I may disagree with your opinion I will support your right, to the death, to express it. This is but only one of our Rights as American citizens that each and every soldier who has sacrificed so much on every battlefield preserve for us.

As I see our society slowly fading from the great independent, free-spritied and courageous beacon of freedom, that seperates us from the rest of the world, to an ambivalent, politically correct, social justice manipulated shell, I fear for our children's future. The future of our countries freedom and security is slowly being stripped from us by a far Left Liberal Progressive mentality that despises American exceptionalism. This is the biggest violation of our liberty, justice and freedom we face today. Despite your political, social or moral opinion America is changing. I fear the change is in the wrong direction as we refuse to support our Founding Fathers vision they had for America. Ronald Reagan described America as the "Shining City On The Hill" and revered its strength and exceptionalism. Today we have leaders denouncing our history and apologizing for our achievements.

However you look at the end of the War in Iraq at least be proud that we tried to help a nation that was being massacred by its own leaders, being systematically destroyed from within and is now better because of our efforts. While you're at it look closely inside our own government and make sure the same fate that was once facing the people in Iraq doesn't somehow occur here.

It saddens me to read a comment that is first critical of the Iraq war, and then says "let's keep politics out of this" - so as long as you can spew your condemnation, you then feel free to tell anyone who disagrees to be quiet? I don't think so.

Thank you Joe for pointing out the truth, which seems lost on the hyper-liberal.

Thank you George Bush for mapping the exit strategy long before Obama took office. Thank you Obama for doing what George Bush put in place.

And a big thank you to our armed forces for serving, risking, and sacrificing.

To those of you who think this was 'Bush's War', need I remind you the UN inspectors are the ones who said they had WMD?

This war was a failure of our CIA, not a personal vendetta from a US President.

The fact you think it was, takes away from the pride these soldiers should have.

You guys make me sick turning this into a 'bash Bush' thread.

One of these days maybe you will grow up, but I won't hold my breath.

To our Soldiers, thank you for your service.

Former M-60 Machine Gunner, 1/136 Infantry Division - Patrick

Gee Patrick, were those the same inspectors who begged for more time because they couldn't confirm the existence of those weapons, but were forced to leave in a rush because GWB wouldn't vouch for their continued safety if they stayed?

Nice try at revisionist history.

Having been involved in a prior war - Viet Nam, I too honor our troops for their sacrifice. But, as I recall our troop pull-out, I remember a short period of time until the other guys moved into Saigon to take over the country. The SVN government, troops, etc. could not or would not continue the effort to fight a war.

It is only a matter of time when this will once again occur in this country. We have spent money there, lost lives there, and if the leaders of the that nation were like the leaders of Viet Nam, much money was lost to the leaders of that nation. How many of the leadership will soon leave the country, relocate to friendly nations and purchase businesses with taxpayer dollars?

Perhaps we need to stop spending our money in the affairs of other countries, and keep our funds in the US to help our own people for a change.

Patrick, TY for your service, but as you have your Own opinion, I have mine also.

George Bush did'nt care about You or your family, This was Bush's personal vendetta!

you should write a book.

This is all such a facinating read. We started out with a heartfelt, feel good, welcome home for our troops and congrats to Obama; then was the name calling; then the blame game. I still see the war in Iraq in a rather unique way, because I don't believe in political parties.

1. Hussein was internationally known for his use of chemical weapons in the 1980s against Kurdish civilians during and after the Iran–Iraq War. It is also known that in the 1980s he pursued an extensive biological weapons program and a nuclear weapons program.

After the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War, the United Nations located and destroyed large quantities of Iraqi WMD and related equipment and materials throughout the early 1990s, with varying degrees of Iraqi cooperation and obstruction- (Cleminson, 2003) What Happened to Suddam's WMD...

I can't believe you guys are still discussing that. He had them, we know he had them, Everyone knew he had them. The fact that he used them was immeterial.

LocationWeapon UsedDateCasualties

Haij Umran
Mustard
August 1983
fewer than 100 Iranian/Kurdish

Panjwin
Mustard
October-November 1983
3,001 Iranian/Kurdish

Majnoon Island
Mustard
February-March 1984
2,500 Iranians

al-Basrah
Tabun
March 1984
50-100 Iranians

Hawizah Marsh
Mustard & Tabun
March 1985
3,000 Iranians

al-Faw
Mustard & Tabun
February 1986
8,000 to 10,000 Iranians

Um ar-Rasas
Mustard
December 1986
1,000s Iranians

al-Basrah
Mustard & Tabun
April 1987
5,000 Iranians

Sumar/Mehran
Mustard & nerve agent
October 1987
3,000 Iranians

Halabjah
Mustard & nerve agent
March 1988
7,000s Kurdish/Iranian

al-Faw
Mustard & nerve agent
April 1988
1,000s Iranians

Fish Lake
Mustard & nerve agent
May 1988
100s or 1,000s Iranians

Majnoon Islands
Mustard & nerve agent
June 1988
100s or 1,000s Iranians

South-central border
Mustard & nerve agent
July 1988
100s or 1,000s Iranians

an-Najaf -
Karbala area
Nerve agent & CS
March 1991
Unknown

The Bush administration saw the country in recession, dangerously close to depression, and needed somthing to boost the economy. Historically, this country prospers during times of war. It's what helped bring us out of the last great depression. Too bad the beans and bullets that our military machine runs on aren't made in America anymore, it's all made in China.

2.The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement was approved by the Iraqi government on December 4, 2008. It establishes that U.S. combat forces will withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and that all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. The pact is subject to possible negotiations which could delay withdrawal and a referendum scheduled for mid-2009 in Iraq which may require all U.S. forces to completely leave by the middle of 2010-On December 14, 2008, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the security pact with Iraq. In his fourth and final trip to Iraq, the president appeared with Iraq's prime minister and said more work is to be done.

Sorry guys, Obama isn't to be praised for the removal of US forces, neither is George W. really. The ISOFA (interesting acronym) was drawn up at the behesting of the Iraqi government. They don't really want us there.

There are so many more facts that need to be brought forward on topics like this. And always so heated when it comes to politics. But this article really isn't about our troops coming home, it's just become a place to vent I guess.

Servicemen and women, with the utmost respect Welcome Home. It's been too long that you have been gone in the defense of...well, we're not really sure what you've been defending. But it's just another sign that politicians don't learn and it's the pawns in the field that have to pay the price.

Mo.......... I do not listen to or watch Fox News. I also do not call people stupid, dumb or ignorant just because they are liberals.

Safecracker....... Sadly you are way to correct in your prediction of what is to come.

To all you President Obama cool-aide drinkers... this President was AGAINST the winning strategy to surge troops in Iraq. He was then only a pimpled-face Jr Senator form Illinois and campaigning for "no more troops," and "end this war..." So - congratulations President Obama for fulfilling your campaign promise. Now, lets see if your strategy of pulling the troops will actually create a safer iraq, a stable government in Iraq, and a thriving economy in Iraq... if Iran sneaks back in with Al-Quaida we'll see if your Harvard smarts are really... smart.

As far as the troops go... I am so sorry you have to serve under this President. I am PROUD of your service and coming home safely. I bet this President will NOT have a peraid in New York like you deserve and I bet his Department of Defense funding cuts will do wonders for the 30,000 plus injured and the 4400+ families who lost their lives to this idiotic war from Bush.

But we love you, military personnel, and while we royally disagree on where this Muslim President is taking our country into Socialism, we can put that aside and honor your sacrifice!

Safecracker; you'r right. These Iraqi troops may not have the ability or desire to maintain any footholds we have gotten for them. These people lived in stoneage conditions,with stoneage principles for centuries before we got there,and will continue to do so. Anyone complaining about no wmds should ask the guys from our S&S and Recovery units that were in Iraq and northern Kuait during Desert Shield/ Desert Storm. The Chemical gas burns and raised red rashes from the SCUDs are finally being recognized by the VA. for treatment...took then awhile....news didn't report that either....kinda like the "we didn't know that" attitude returning Vietnam vets got about Agent Orange. All politics and talk shows aside, Welcome home brothers and sisters in arms, ...and good luck and;" be safe" to the 2 (of many) units that are leaving next month FOR iraq.....convoy security is still no fun......oh yeah......the news didn't say that either.....................and yes I can sign this; US ARMY DISABLED VETERAN ...just retired......

Im guessing you guys want to fight the battles here in your own neighborhoods.

Do your history lessons..........The Vietnam War was the longest and costliest in history!!!

Right Puckie. I'm scanning the horizon now watching for their aircraft carriers to sail into view.

Vee....... Longest in terms of years you are correct. Costliest in lives lost? Not even close. Cost in dollars? doubtful

people that write this stuff ran out of time on the Kennedy conspiracy. Or was it the UFOs in New Mexico?

John, Did you see the aircraft carriers on 9/11. P.S. do you actually know what one looks like. I do 10 year navy vet. All they need is a Mk82 bombbody and a handfull of metal scrap. Been there, observed that.

Receiving bible verses on your Blackberry doesn't make you a christian. My, oh my. Maybe it's true, only the elephants can save us now.

Other things that dont make you Christian:

Clergy Going to soldiers funerals and shouting they deserved to die because 'God HAtes FAgs'

Roman Catholic priests covering up their molestation of children

Murdering a doctor who performs a legal procedure, in the name of God

Wnat some more example.....

My favorite quote from Ghandi:

"I like your Christ, but I dont like your Christians"

Ron, As a fellow Hoosier and a Retired Military man I to reflected on this day the reasons for this war and the sacrifices that our brave men and women have suffered to put down an evil dictatorship.

What I have came up with is that sooner or later someone in the world was going to have to put a stop to thousands of years of business as usual in the middle east. We Americans one more time took up arms to try to make changes in the para-dime that exists in other parts of the world. Yes the information that we based our actions were not true. Yes, Even the United Nations thought the Iraq had WM D's. Yes, we do things in the Middle East to make sure that the flow of oil never is interrupted. Finally, yes we always ask our young to finish things that the old diplomats seem to start. We can't just bury our heads in the sand and hope all will be well though can we? We have had throughout history examples of selfish, evil people that when unchecked kill and murder out of greed, power, or prejudice!

I for one can't understand why Americans don't understand that we live in a world that for the most part would be OK if we just would go away and leave them to there own devises. Most of the world wants what we have but want it their way! Americans look for the Win-Win in everything and that is just naive and sometimes stupid. There are winners and there are losers and it is always going to be that way.

If there wasn't so much at stake we would care what happens to the middle-east. Take a look at the African Nations that from time to time go on Wholesale killing Spreeze and what to most Americans say or do, NOTHING! Why? Could it be because they have nothing that we want! Again, no Win there!

I am very proud of the work and sacrifice that our brave men and women have done in Iraq and want them to come home with a sense of pride and accomplishment that they deserve. I'm also very proud of the decision that Former President Bush made to invade that country of cutthroats! They should have allowed the inspectors to see everything and the invasion would not have happened! Let's place the blame where it is deserved, Saddam Hussein and the Bath Party! Just more examples of Middle Eastern Thugs that hopefully will think twice now before killing for pleasure!

Thank you with all my heart United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard for a job well done! God Bless you and God Bless the United States of America!

Sorry Puckie, if the best you've got is "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here" you're beyond help. Hardly anyone bought that 5 years ago.

All this Bush/Cheney bashing (some of it well deserved) but do you not see the hypocrisy in condemning the Bush Admin and not condemning the Republicans AND Democrats who voted for this war? If Bush and Cheney were only doing it for their own benefit, why didn't Congress vote against the Iraq Resolution in 2002? Why didn't they vote to stop the war after WMDs weren't found? There is enough blame to go around but pointing a finger in only one direction leaves three pointing in another.

"President Obama is more religious than Reagan or H.W. Bush ever was; in fact, he gets Bible verses sent to his blackberry EVERY DAY"

That's a pretty sorry explanation of being "religious". The reality is that Obama probably hasn't been to church since he entered the White House, and he didn't bother to attend the service for the National Day of Prayer, but he did make time to attend the Ramadan ceremony for Muslims.

You left out "so they don't follow us home". Cue Ft Hood and that NYC gas-can dude.

the American populace (which should be embarrassed).

To which ever one of you who wrote that... THANK YOU!

The stuck on stupid crowd - SHOULD be ashamed of themselves!

Our combat troops coming home is indeed a cause for joy. However, we must not forget the 50,000 left behind in various capacities. That's the size of a small to medium Midwestern city. Until they too get to come home to joyous celebrations with their families, I believe our joy should be somewhat muted.

Let's not forget that they will be subjected to suicide bombers and various other dangers until they get out of there. They also deserve our continued prayers and support. I hate to rain on everyone's parade and I am thrilled that we are officially ending our combat role.

However, Iraq is far from a base in Germany or Japan or England (where we have troops as well)--as far as I'm concerned it will continue to be combat zone until those folks resurrect their society from the throes of the hell Sadaam Hussein as well as Bush, Cheney, et all sank them into.

Its nice that some of the troops are coming home from Iraq.. Thank you President Bush for Making this Possible. You truely were A great President for Removing Saddam Hussien From Power. A man that Killed so many of His own People allowed for the rape and Murder of Hundreds of thousands of People.. its Really Great that the Bush Administration Polices have in Fact made this a Winnalbe War and they infact did win it.. Yea President Bush .. Thank you so much. .I can Remember when Barack Obama was Telling Us the American People that Iraq Was Lost. It was Not a Winnable War.... but it was You President Bush that Showed us, that We Americans Dont Give up...... And yes President Bush.. Thank you for Keeping your Promise to the Ameican People and Bringing the American Troops home when The job was Finished.

O yeah Stevo, lets Thank the YellowStreaked one (Bush) for Not being strong enough to Fight Osama Bin Laden. Let's also thank him for spending a Trillion(can you wrap your Wharped mind around that figure), just to have Saddam's Pistol in his Presidential Library.

Lets also Thank GWB for Makeing Iran a soon to be Nucular Country, by takeing away the deterent needed in the middle east.

I really like these low gas prices that we Americans enjoy, at least that's 1 of the Many, Many Lies told.

I really really like the fact that Not 1 country in the middle east dare to mess with Isreal Now. Just another Lie told. The Palestinians still have Nothing to show for it.

LaLaland, where would the GOP be without the masses, who Live there.

Steve sure made stuck on stupid all his this morning. Any friends you want to bring along Steve?

You are so right, Feisty. And from appearances above - no jo, joe and scoles will all live to a VERY ripe OLD age.

Yep. .that right . Thank you President Bush for the Policys that made this Possible...

and Mo and Rick.. Thanks for your Comments.. I know what wonderful people you are.. I was just thanking the Person that is Responsible for making this possible....

Steve - put the crack pipe down..............you are dazed and confused. This is not Faux Noise, you need to go home noe hurry before you miss your meds!!

AGain.. Thank you President Bush for the Policies that Made this possible..

Thanks Mac for worring about my Health. Really Appreciate your Concern for your fellow Citizen, but that Acid you Took has you Imagining things about and Projecting your Drug use on to others.. . They do have programs that can help you...

Feisty-

Let's not forget that Dick Cheney insisted right up until 2009 that the reason we invaded Iraq was because Saddam Hussein was responsible for the 9/11 attack!

For those apologist who say "everybody thought there were WMD's" does not make it any less egregious that those who were in power knew or should have known that was a lie!

I hear you Sheila...

I'm dizzy from all the right wing spinning going on here this morning... lol

The stuck on stupid crowd is WELL represented today!

O yeah Stevo, lets Thank the YellowStreaked one (Bush) for Not being strong enough to Fight Osama Bin Laden

I am sorry I missed the news flash, did Obama catch him? Nope, didn't think so. Stupid comment there Rick.

I see the Obamabots are out in full force taking credit for a war well faught when you had nothing to do with it. Nice. Your party can't even enforce borders laws in our own country let alone win a war abroad.

In the voice of Nancy "The SwampMonster" Pelosi - "Obamabots ROLLOUT!!"

Some perspective:

The U.S. has not been at war since the end of WWII. Congress is too cowardly to make a formal declaration as required by the Constitution, and the Executive Branch has been more than happy to step into that vacuum.

Since that time we have engaged in incursions in Korea - 33,000 American dead and many more injured, Viet Nam - 58,000 dead and many more injured, Grenada, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq (twice), Lebanon, Afghanistan, Panama, and more. All that without a formal declaration of war, and please, please remember that pitiful term - collateral damage. Between that and foreign soldiers, the dead number in the seven-figure range - MILLIONS. Who knows the extent of the injured as well as the extent of the injuries themselves?

I truly believed after the apparent overwhelming change in American attitude during and following the SEA debacle we would not find ourselves mired in more civil wars in which there was absolutely no possibility of a victory. The fundamental premise of our involvement is so obviously false as to make one question the sanity of anyone who supports these wars. It is IMPOSSIBLE to declare victory in another country's civil war.

Think back. Those who oppose intervention in a foreign invasion are immediately labeled as sissies, as liberals, and as unpatriotic. No matter that many of the unpatriotic, liberal sissies once served in other wars and actually REMEMBER how terrible the killing grounds are. The chicken hawks and chest thumpers in America ALWAYS take the day.

A fitting quote for A. Philip Randolph, a civil rights advocate: "Make wars unprofitable and you make them impossible."

If nothing else, consider this: This ghastly invasion of Iraq has cost more than 4,400 lives and dare I mention "national treasure"? Ten times that many - 44,000, forty-four thousand - Americans will die each and every year because we can't afford health insurance for them.

Oh yeah, I'm one of those unpatriotic, liberal sissy veterans. To the returning G.I.'s: Wwelcome home. To the families whose loved ones they will never see again: My apologies. To those with mental and physical injuries, some too awful to even begin to imagine, I will remind my fellow Americans at every opportunity that your are still out there.

Fisted Red Head

Isn't it just like you to give these Brave Men and Women a big backhanded Phuck You! That is exactly what all of you do when you say Oh! Thank You but I didn't agree with all of those people you had to kill or that, that Mother Trucker Bush Lied and made you have to go, but thank you sooo much. God! You make me sick. All of you that can't just leave it at "Thank You" shouldn't post it at all. They don't give a crap whether you were for or against. They just want to hear thank you. We appreciate you.

Again it is like saying come here, I want to thank you, then when they get close enough you slug 'em

Ok now that was the funniest thing Ive seen all day, Fisted red head I can hear the moans from Deeetroit. Barryyyyyyyy Barryyyyyyyyy OooOo Barryyyyyyyyy.

David-Are you stating that we shouldn't fight wars but provide healthcare? I'm pretty sure the government is supposed to protect us, don't know about providing healthcare though. Nope, can't find it in the Declaration, the Constitution... I'll keep looking though.

Let us not forget that our current president refused to wear the American flag pin when the former president was in office. He WOULDN'T support a sitting president or it's troops, why exactly should we support him? (obama)

Welcome home troops! SOME of us are happy that you're back and appreciate what you've done!

Well Patrick, I don't Know for sure, but maybe, just maybe, he's waiting on John "I know where Osama Bin Laden's hideing" Mccain, to tellem.

You Betcha!

Gee Dan, I won't wear white socks with dress pants. Do you have any appreciation that the people who got us INTO this sorry mess wore flag pins to every public appearance? That the people who authorized tapping YOUR phone without a warrant showed off their flag pins at every opportunity?

Dan:

I stated exactly what you apparently didn't read. I pointed out that we have NOT fought a war since the end of WWII.

Let's take a look at that "protect us" stuff. Does an inoculation protect us? Yes, it does. Does clearing a blocked artery protect us from death? Yes it does. Does killing kids running around in Iraq protect us? Probably not. Indeed the case may be made that it actually makes us less safe.

Don't split hairs with me and don't parse language with me. If we, as a nation choose to nationalize health care, that's the way it is. Does that require an amendment in the Constitution? Probably not, but we'll find out if there's a challenge in the court.

Don't tell me about the results of the latest poll, it doesn't count. What does count - and the only one that counts - is the one taken in November of 2008. We chose President Obama. We got a minor improvement in health care, but not enough. Like it or not, that is how this country is run. You will have a chance to vote again in 2010.

I couldn't care less about the President's accessorizing. He didn't wear a flag pin? Are you kidding? I don't either. That he didn't wear a silly lapel pin pales in comparison to a President who went AWOL and a Vice-President who is a five-time draft dodger, a college dropout and an accomplished scofflaw who believes torture is just jim-dandy. And both of them sent our troops into harm's way based on a foundation of lies.

Show me a single instance of where the President did not support our troops. ONE!

Why should you support him? That's up to you to decide, but if your decision to deny your support is based on fabrications and how the President dresses, I seriously doubt whether he really cares whether you support him. I don't.

David-What exactly do you mean that we have NOT fought a war since WWII? Are you so blind that the warfare has changed in it's layout since WWII? All out victory is not feasible since the creation of the atomic bomb. I ask that you read some on Truman and Eisenhower. Because we HAVE won. Just not the ticker tape parades to declare all out victory that will never occur again. Our victories have come in the continuance of our democratic way of life.

This protection you compare the medical procedures is quite the stretch. The wonderful thing about the constitution and it's founders are that it was deliberately open to interpretation. Thankfully, the balance of common sense up to this point has greatly outweighed those that seek to alter it for their own ideals. But that may be changing. IF it continues the way you stretch it, perhaps I can ask the government to replace my front door. (you know that would offer me better protection)

"if we as a nation choose to nationalize healthcare" you seem to have missed the fact that we as a nation are GREATLY AGAINST nationalized healthcare. But if you choose to turn a blind eye like those democrats in office, that is your business. What you must mean is, if those elected have chosen healthcare and gone against the will of their constituents. And that is NOT the way it is. You see, there is a balance of power in place, so if the Supreme court takes up the case and determines it to be unconstitutional, it does NOT take place.

I hope you weren't a Clinton supporter, because he was a draft dodger as well. And you obviously do worry about Obama's attire, if my pointing out that he didn't support a sitting president or it's country bothers you enough to respond. And let me get this straight, an American flag worn by Senators to show their support for the country in your mind is "Silly?" The disabled veteran that gave one to then candidate Obama didn't think so. He didn't wear the pin because of his protest against the Iraq war. Now my claim is that while all of those above were making a nice cozy campfire and glowing in the predetermined ending of combat units in Iraq finally on their way home, and thanking the wrong person for achieving it, Obama was against the very proposal that allowed it to happen. And while not supporting the war, he wasn't supporting the troops that were there fighting it. By constantly speaking out that the war and surge would not work, and only end in failure, that does NOT give support to the troops. That's just like me stating that the freedom you have to respond I support, but the garbage I think you'll write I don't. Am I supporting you? Fabrications? I don't follow the lines about cool-aid, teabaggers, faux news, or anything that begins with any of those comments. I don't believe the emails, or the presidential addresses. I'll look into the stories myself and make my own opinions. But you're wasting your breath and time if you think I'll buy into the fact that our president is patriotic, and had anything to do with bringing the troops home other than a continuation of the previous administrations policies.

John B-do you have any proof that wiretaps were placed on a completely innocent person? Is big brother watching too closely? Let's put down the reefer and stop with the scare tactics. "Fear is the foundation of most governments."

Well Dan, fear was certainly the foundation of the Bush era government. If you've been paying ANY attention whatsoever you're aware that I can't prove if innocent people were wiretapped because the program was classified, but it was DESIGNED to listen to EVERYONE and supposedly ferret out the terrorists from there. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/us/01nsa.html

Acutally John, it wasn't designed to listen to everyone. Take a look at it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy

I don't make phone calls to terrorists. And since I don't, I'm not a suspect to be under that warantless tap. Look into it a little closer before making the baseless claims that EVERYONE is listened to. Seems like you're taking a page out of the bush scare tactics book. And I'm certain you know that terrorists in this country would take full advantage of this if it wasn't in effect.

I didn't say that everyone IS being listened to, I said that anyone COULD be listened to, with no oversight, and no one would ever know. Does that sound like a good thing? To me it sounds like a great way to erode our freedoms. "I don't make phone calls to terrorists" is just a variation on "if you aren't doing something wrong you don't have anything to worry about." That's a lousy excuse to chip away at our freedom. It's a violation of law and Constitution. Beyond that why would anything else matter?

John-Just so I understand your point correctly, are you stating that because our governent allows the intelligence agencies to listen in on conversations between known terror groups, countries that harbor terrorists, or suspected collaborators that our freedoms are being eroded because they are not following the fourth amendment rights?

Although when I was younger and more idealistic I may have agreed with you. But when I see that this very act could have prevented the terrorist attacks, I tend to accept the use of the argument about the protection of borders on the fourth amendment. (it allows the warrantless search and seizure upon inspection of people and items entering and exiting the country-which is how this act gives legal authority to search these phone calls and emails) So it technically is not a violation of law and Constitution.

Many years ago, we had phone lines that all of your neighbors were capable of listening in on your private conversations. So this privacy on the phone is fairly new. I'm not one for bigger government and automated enforcement-traffic cameras etc. I'm more angry about our government telling us what we have to do for OUR own safety-have to wear seat belts, my kids have to wear bike helmets, what age they can be before sitting in the front seat. THESE are the personal freedoms I have an issue with. When the government tries to tell me what is best for me. Or tries to tell me why I have to help out everyone else in social programs.

But this Patriot Act wiretapping phones is the same I feel about cheating spouses. If I were cheating and my wife were to search my emails and find out, it's no ones fault but my own. She's not going to go searching without suspicion. And that's what I feel about this act also. Remember, two senators tried to bring up an amendment on the act preventing this wiretapping and it never even made it to a vote. Why? Because judges declared it a legal option. Two of three were appointed during Clinton, so it can't even be claimed that they were Bush appointees. Another point to be made-just because this is used to capture suspects does not mean that it can be used in a case against them. If it's proven that the fourth was violated, the evidence can not be used in the case.

No Dan, I'm saying that under no circumstances is it Constitutionally allowed for the government to play Big Brother and assert the right to listen in on EVERYONE just to make sure we're toeing the line. It's that simple. There isn't anything else.

Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. --Benjamin Franklin

And how is it different than searching everyone at the border? Or at the airport? Are these not the same? And they aren't listening to EVERYONE. But they CAN. Just like they don't inspect EVERY car in the country, but CAN at the border. The Constitution DOES give the Government the right to protect what is entering and exiting it's borders. This means telephone and emails in today's world. And that is what is being listened to. If you and I were having a conversation from my state to yours, they can not listen. And if they do, then whatever evidence they gather is inadmissible in court under the fourth amendment. What this act allows is for our government to gather intel on would-be terrorists that would otherwise hide behind the fourth amendment and use it to their advantage. What I'm saying is that if our system is going to be used against us, alter the system just to throw them off a bit. Not for good, just for a time. Just as this act is only for a limited time.

And if Benjamin Franklin were involved in politics today, he'd be toast. Living it up in France while our country was in a revolution is absurd.

The purpose is clear. It is safety with solvency. The country is entitled to both.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

But Dan, we HAVE procedures that accomodate court oversight of such matters. We even have the FISA court in which everything is classified. Law enforcement can go so far as to seek approval from the FISA court after the fact, and they almost never deny the requested warrant.

What we have here is a situation in which the Executive has decided unilaterally to violate existing law and the Constitution without agreement or oversight of the other branches of government. The concept of Unlawful Combatant further decrees that US or foreign soil makes no difference and that your Constitutional rights don't apply if the Executive decrees such. If that doesn't bother you we'll have to agree to disagree, but for the life of me I can't understand why that should be OK with anyone. I don't know if it's been abused, but I'm more afraid of this sort of unbridled power in the hands of any President than I am that good law enforcement and intelligence protocol alone isn't sufficient to prevent an attack.

John-I found this also, you may be interested in it. It has nothing to do with the Patriot act.

Both federal and California law enforcement officials may eavesdropon and record telephone conversations without a court order under the so-called "one party consent provision" (18 USC 2511(2)(s); California Penal Code 633). In other words, if state or federal authorities have the consent of one party to a conversation (such as a government informant), the conversation may be monitored. This provision applies only to eavesdropping by law enforcement officials.

So if a law enforcement official is on one end it's perfectly legal to wiretap. What's your opinion on this?

In theory, I DO agree with you. It does bother me that if I make enough noise against the President, I can be declared an enemy combatant and thrown in prison indefinitely without due process. That scares me a WHOLE lot more than a wiretapping. But listening in to my phone conversation does nothing as long as I'm tried in a criminal court. Because a lawyer can have those phone conversations thrown out under our code of laws. And only if a judge deems them relevant under national security can they be used. And even if he does, there are appeals. Not to mention the public outcry by using such massive media outlets. Places such as these very blogs to discuss what happened to me. =) (although some might be campaigning for capital punishment for me. lol)

In closure I think it's important to realize that our society, even without the patriot act, is not a perfect judicial process. Many times we've improperly tried and convicted citizens. It is only with our faith in this system we can continue as a society. This particular act has rattled your faith and many others. And due to that, I think it should be streamlined or changed prior to the next time it's enstated. However, if a phone conversation is caught that saves the lives of the next terror attack, then perhaps a different system of criteria should apply in terms of warrantless searches. Was there any legal reason to suspect the terrorists involved in 9/11? Or was it simply common sense that should have determined that someone not wanting to learn how to land in flight school would have put up a red flag? Can you think of any criteria that would keep us safe as this act suggests, but wouldn't violate our rights?

One last note on wiretapping-Telephone company employees may listen to your conversations when it is necessary to provide you with service, to inspect the telephone system, to monitor the quality of telephone service or to protect against service theft or harassment. Also, employers may monitor and even record their employees' phone conversations with few restrictions (18 USC 2511(2)(a); California Penal Code 631(b)). (See PRC fact sheet no. 7, "Employee Monitoring: Is There Privacy in the Workplace?")

I see no problem with one party consent. These are situations in which someone has a reason to want law enforcement involvement and it makes perfect sense. Informants, undercover operations, victims of extortion or harrassment would all be covered. There's a legitimate reason for the surveillance.

I agree that wiretapping doesn't create an issue in traditional circumstances. The warrantless wiretapping program, however, was part of a broad sweep of changes in legal thought that were designed to create new powers for the prosecution. Powers that included the enemy combatant concept, the selective suspension of Habeus Corpus, and resultant endless detention.

There's no question that our judicial process is imperfect. It is, after all, both devised and administered by people. I believe the existing FISA court system to be adequate for national security tasks. I'll maintain that someone who didn't care how to land a plane WAS sufficient to put up a red flag, in fact several FBI agents contacted Washington with concerns about that specific issue. Sharing information was and perhaps continues to be a problem as well. The NSA knew who many of the hijackers were when they entered the country. No one knows if they followed the terrorists once they were here because they refuse to share that information, but they didn't alert the FBI.

In reality when terrorist plots are foiled it isn't whiz-bang data sifting or Jack Bauer ends-justify-the-means approaches that have been proven to get results. It's good police work. We need to continually look at how to do that better and 9/11 offered a lesson in how we can get behind the curve on that, but it works.

Required telephone service and workplace privacy levels are known issues of long precedent. It always amazes me when someone sends an email he wouldn't want his employer to read. When at work your time belongs to your employer, after all.

Thanks for taking the time and consideration to explore this subject in depth.

John-Thanks you also for your thoughts on this topic. I think we can both claim victory in a partial agreement? It appears as if we both have the same goal in mind, just different views on how to obtain that goal. Where we both feel our personal freedoms are not to be taken lightly. Everyone should be entitled to due process regardless of time of war or peace. The suspension of Habeas Corpus as you've pointed out, is an attack on our freedoms we should hold so dear.

I am a registered independant, so sometimes I lean too far to either side depending on the topic. But I feel that politics in general have too much to do with the outcome of our freedoms. Not only in this unlawful detention we see at Gitmo, but in the budget reductions of police forces and investigative/intelligence services.

It's been a thought provoking argument with you and I look forward to more of them with you in the future.

Excellent point about the effect that politics currently has on our freedoms, Dan. Certain things should be off limits, period, and trying to politicize them should be the ultimate shame. Of course there will always be a certain amount of disagreement on which things and where the lines are, so it's complicated.

I look forward to our next discussion, whatever the subject.

Joe in Albany: Meanwhile, Congress is on a month long vacation, Barry is starting a two week vacation and der Furher, Nazi Pelosi, wants to investigate the funding of the Ground Zero mosque opponents, referring to them as those who are

One would hope that Nancy would call the House back in session to immeidately begin that investigation. It's just as important to have those investigations started as it was to pass that $26 billion pay off to the states so they could hire back all the teachers they fired (but instead put into the teachers underfunded pension plans, and the states hired no teachers back).

That's the thing about Nancy, she has he priorities.

Joe in Albany: Weekly jobless claims hit nine-month high

And California's Governor Schwarzenegger just furloughed 150,000 state workers. They'll need to take unpaid leave 3 days out of each month. Those numbers won't count against the unemployment numbers, but are unemployment none the less. Several other states that are bankrupt are considering doing the same.

This after all the billions Obama gave to the states. Doesn't look like that "stimulus" helped them much, now does it?

But the Libs already have their story/excuse/spin ready: "Blame it on the Bush tax cuts."

The economy is nothing to worry about-after all, Obama dubbed this the 'summer of recovery'. All those new jobless claims? nothing to worry about-this is, after, the summer of recovery!

Or, maybe this isn't what he meant. Oh, well.

Last summer he proclaimed there would be 600,000 new jobs created by his stimulous. That didn't happen? Oh, well.

The summer before, he went to Germany and proclaimed himself a 'citizen of the world'. That statement was as dumb as any other he has made, but it didn't stop him getting elected.

Maybe it should have. We would certainly have been better off.

People ask: do you think we would have been better off with McCain? Well, yes, actually, I do. The debt would not have been as high; a $787billion, ( since expanded to $840billion) pork laden stimulous bill would not have been enacted; GM and Chrysler would have gone through a structured bankruptcy - and not on the taxpayers' backs; we would have enabled the Iranians to overthrow their government last year-I could go on, but you get the gist.

Speaking of GM-I see that there is a new PR stunt coming out of that company. A few months ago, it was widely heralded that they were 'paying back the loans"! It turned out to be malarkey-they used taxpayer monies from one account to pay taxpayer money back to the government, at the same time that they got, you guessed it, more taxpayer money. NOW we are treated to the idea that they will IPO-in order to pay back some of the money they got from us. About one per cent, I understand. So, here we have a situation where we, the taxpayers, own 60% of GM-in stock-and we are expected to go out and buy MORE OF OUR OWN STOCK.

It's kind of like the former owner of your house coming by and asking if you'd like to buy it from him all over again. He gets your money, you get to keep the house you already own.

It's called a SCAM. Why now? well, you don't think there might be an ELECTION coming up, now do you?

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH… says the Goddess of Gloom & Doom

JoAnna ~ There's a pretty big backlog of investigations right now ... starting with the conspiracy that got us into Iraq in the first place. And not to mention that it would fun to get another lick at Iran-Contra and the first S&L crisis, given all that's happened since. Great irony that you should bring up investigations this morning.

Be careful what you wish for.

Feisty:

Same stupid crap and false information from the right. What would they do without their little crib sheets? See the new Republican Agenda for 2010. I just copied a few paragraphs from the report. It is the Reagan & Bush Voodoo and Trickle down economics all over again. They were not happy raping America the first 2 times, they are going for three and it is worst than the other two added together. Good plan.

Great post No Jo - Spot on!

The Democratic agenda for 2010 is tell everyone that everything is going along great. They'll say things like "Never mind that soon to be double digit unemployment, that's just temporary, besides it takes years to fix the problems of the Republicans driving us into the ditch!" Too bad no one is buying it. Even though Obama said the economy was improving, yesterday, and he even said it last YEAR, the economy would have to be a freaking glacier to be that slow. The other thing the Democrats will do is blame Bush. No one is buying that anymore either, but hey, that's all the Dems got so they'll have to run with it.

Obama's speeches are now such a joke, it's hard to figure out if he's trying to tell us something, or if he's doing Stand-up Comedy. It's looking more and more like the latter.

No Joe, Joanna, Joe = blah blah blah more useless garbage from the socially and ethically incompetent.

You are boring and irrelevant.

Don't they say it is always darkest before dawn?

I wonder why those that speak out how badly the economy is doing cannot quantify as to how many jobs the Bush tax cuts created?? Where are all those jobs??..ooops overseas....

Everyone expects the Titanic to be turned on a dime. With the economy destroyed the way it was it is going to take years for it to recover, not months.

You never hear Repubs saying anything but tax cut, 9/11, tax cut, 9/11blah blah blah blah blah....

It's funny how the fans are now crowing about the layoffs in CA? -Isn't your man Arnold a Repub? and look how well those polices worked.

US Navy Disabled Vet- Retired and to all those that have served - Thank you for allowing us to maintain our freedom of speech (especially on this board) - and belated happy anniv - your wife is a lucky lady!

No Jo, Joanna, Joe In albany, are you three communist.

Today is a day to reflect on our men and women that died for this country and the one finnally coming Home.

President Obama cleaned up the biggest mess of the previous administration, No not the economy, a war that claimed over 4400 deaths a unknown number of civilins killed and god know who many will have to live with out arms and legs. George Bush should be in jail for lying to those who served in iraq. but what do you three do, more of the same, barry is this, barry is that. well i will tell you three your selfish as H*ll, to not to at least leave a post thanking our men and women in uniform for the scacrafic they made for you and me!!!!

no Joe, JoAnna and Joe -- you guys are smokin' today, great stuff.

Dan Austin -- I'd be interested ins seeing your point by point (documented) rebuttal of what these folks had to say. Rather than the fatuous snark that is so typical of your crowd.

"Everyone expects the Titanic to be turned on a dime"

Sounds like you are saying Captain Barry is steering the economy into a HUGE iceberg that will sink it once and for all. Geez, even the lefty liberals worst criticism of GWB was "he drove the economy into a ditch".

Unfortunately, I think you are right. Economically, America's best days are in the rear view mirror. Every great economic world power in the last 600 years has risen to the top and then fallen. Spain, France, England, why would anyone think America will escape the same fate?? Especially as the lefty liberals are pushing the country to be more like the countries of Old Europe. Next stop: Barry's Deficit Commission recommendation to add a VAT, just like Old Europe.

Jeff-1541632
No Jo, Joanna, Joe In albany, are you three communist.

It's unbelievable Jeff isn't it? Not a one of them has said ONE positive or kind word about OUR troops! Then you get Me First Bill chiming in cheerleading!

I think it speaks VOLUMES as to the difference between right wing nuts and Democrats!

They can't take one moment out of their HATE filled frenzy to say thank you to the Americans who fought and died for their freedom to spew their crap!

These right wing loons truly are a PATHETIC bunch!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Girl you said it, Now if George Bush has been able to do this Oha 3 years ago they would be throwing a party. feisty the are sick, sick, sick people out here. a major historical event happened last night and all they can do is POO POO!!! all down their pants. if they want to ignore our troops then fine, but we know what this means.

Dan-socially and ethically incompetent?

Do you even know what those words mean?

I guess not. To you, this is the playground, and you just namecall, even if you don't know what the words mean.

Hoping some of the 'cool' kids will pick you for their team. Pathetic.

Jeff... SPOT ON!

My hope is that the people reading this blog and not participating will take a LONG HARD look at 'so called' family values party! As they expose themselves this morning and the phony flag waving - pin wearing HYPOCRITS that they ARE!

Yeah... it's all about family with them... as long as it's their OWN! You know the ones... the I GOT MINE FU crowd!

PS; Dan you are MORE than welcome to be on the winning team - so much for the 'big tent' party lmao!

To Bill and Joe,

Thanks for reading! If you think that I owe either of you a well thought out point by point post is amusing at best. I refuse to acknowledge either of your posts as insightful enough to deserve a point by point response from me. Both of you seem to just spew hate and support nonsense statements from the likes of Joanna and Osamaobama. So save your self righteous indignation for someone who doesn't see you for what and who you are.

Post something that resembles intelligence and you'll get a respectful response from me. Until then...

No Joe,

You really have no room to question my understanding of words and I laugh at you for questioning my intelligence. Maybe you should run your posts by Mark Murray before you decide to jump in the pool with the adults.

I don't expect the titanic to be turned on a dime, but I did hope that they would at least put the rudder over. Doesn't appear that they have and it looks like they pushed the throttles to their stops.

I won't get into a debate with you about "whose fault" this meltdown is because I think that no matter who you blame, whether it's dems or repubs, big business or special interest, you are all right. Every one of them had a hand in this. And don'f forget to look in a mirror when you start casting the blame around, because WE are also to blame for this. No one twisted our arms to go buy stuff on credit.

Griping about who lied to get us to go to Iraq is also pointless. Once again a large majority of the people of this country thought we needed to go based on the information we had at the time. Now people are throwing around accusations of lying. If you can give irrefutable proof, then lets get it out there! If you don't have proof, then you are doing nothing but pissing in the wind and clouding the issue.

Either way, the fact is, we went over there. Our troops died there. And no matter how much you cry about someone lying, that fact DOES NOT CHANGE!!! The drawdown plans were in place BEFORE Obama was elected, but I do give him chops for sticking to it. I'm glad to see our combat troops coming home.

-Soon to be retired veteran.

After that response Dan... I definitely want you on MY team! lol

OUCH!!!

Nice touch with the Mark Murry reference... she's still stinging from the 'spanking' he gave her earlier in the week! :0))))

No Jo.. Jo anna and joe in Albany.. Wow. Way to go. keep up the Good work.. These liberals just like to spew hate and discontent and you guys are really handing them a Arse whooping today.. Keep up the Good work..

perhaps they should head to the hospital to have those Wounds looked at..

Thanks Fiesty! To be honest the only team I am on is the team of logic and reason. When I first started reading the posts on this site I thought you were a bit mean but that quickly changed to understanding once I noticed how ridiculous some of these posters are. They constantly make the same baseless claims and never back it up with facts. I respect those who seem to never lose their patience and continue to use facts and logic to defeat those posters that have a deficiency in both. I have also come to respect those that just throw the nonsense back in the faces of those that just come here to spout their incoherent garbage.

Jody,Nash, feisty, Ron,Retired,Dennis, Drive By, and many more...You make it less lonely out here and I always enjoy your posts!

"no Joe, JoAnna and Joe -- you guys are smokin' today, great stuff."

No Kidding, ME FIrst. Wonder if we can score some to smoke ourselves??

buzz,

you just never disappoint,...you got this fired off before I could - yes, they are smokin' but smokin' what? And I feel quite certain it ain't legal, cuz' it's left 'em loopier than a couple of shidizzled crack heads.

JAS1

California needs at least 30 billion to get out of debt. So that means they would had to have all of the money. Which in return would leave the other states without.

Yes, we should blame it on Bush's tax cuts which added 1.7 trillion to our debt because the taxes were not paid for. If you remember the Rethugs said that all of the taxes will pay for themselves every single time. Everyone knows that a big lie!!!!!!

Jody,Nash, feisty, Ron,Retired,Dennis, Drive By, and many more...You make it less lonely out here and I always enjoy your posts!

Thanks Dan! When you've been fighting back the BS around here for as long as I have... it's no wonder I'm as 'feisty' as I am! lol

Nasty Redhead said "Not a one of them has said ONE positive or kind word about OUR troops!"

Nasty, I'm very happy that some of our troops have been brought home from Iraq and I thank every one of them, including the 50,000 that are not coming home, and their extended families for their service. The same goes for ALL our troops wherever they are in the world.

The reason I did not comment on this until now, is that I was totally disgusted by the Barry admin's turning it into a media circus for his own political gain.

"Look at me!!!! I kept a campaign promise!!!!"

I guess low poll numbers make some people willing to use our troops as a political prop.

As I said, disgusting.

No Joe

Well I'm just full of excitement for you since you think MaCain would have be better. But I'm glad he wasn't because I'm sure we would have been at war with Iran!!

How could we've enabled the Iranians to overthow their goverment. As I recalled they told not to help.

TRR,,

Us Republicans we understand that if Obama lets the Bush Tax cuts sunset that the Govt will then start to take more money from the American people that they Earned.. we understand that it will pay down the Deficts in the Budgets that the DEmocrat Congress have and Are passing... we also understand that if Obama allows them to Continue that it will Add to the debt and Deficts Because of the Budgets that the Democrats in the House and Senate are Passing..

I dont understand why allowing people to keep their own money is somehow adding to the Debt..

Tell the Govt to Stop Spending our money like its growing on Trees..

"another cruel summer for Team Obama"

"Another cruel summer for America courtesy of Team Obama" is more accurate.

"I dont understand why allowing people to keep their own money is somehow adding to the Debt.."

First of all, 98% of Americans will get to keep their tax cuts unless the Republicans filibuster that plan as they've promised. Put that blame where it belongs should it come to that. And credit the Obama Administration for fighting to keep your tax break, as well as the new breaks given to 95% of taxpayers since he took office. Can you do that?

Secondly, the tax cuts for those 2% would cost the budget $700B. What would you like to cut to get there? What should the government stop doing to start paying down the debt? "Stop wasting money" isn't going to get you there. The deficit is bigger than the ENTIRE non-military, discretionary budget.

You don't like the President's plan, what's yours?

John.

WE understand you think that Letting People Keep their Money is Costing the BUDGET .. but the Fact is that MONEY does not belong to the GOVT.. it belongs to the People.. THE BUDGET is how much the DEMOCRATS want to spend.. and they are not taking Enough money in to cover they Budget. So they Want take some more money from people that Earned it.

and its pretty simple John what the Govt should do. . START LAYING OFF PEOPLE THEY CANT AFFORD TO KEEP ON.. Just like Private Industry has to do when they are not taking in enough money Make Govt smaller.. .

It's amazing how the teabagging republicans are reeling about Fox getting scooped on the troops coming home last night. But hey teabaggers Fox would rather spew hate than honor our troops, just like all of you here on FR this morning.

And Steve, it's not suprising you don't understand how allowing the rich 2% to keep their tax cuts doesn't add to the budget. It's obvious you don't understand anything but Fox hate and lies. So go cuddle up with Cheney/Bush cause your just as stupid as they are.

So Steve, what should the government stop doing? It wasn't a hard question.

and MO

I understand that you think that money that other people Earn belongs to you Liberals. We get that.

We understand you Depend on other people to Support your Needs. And that you want to take other peoples Money to Support your Needs..

As you scream this thread is off subject, you liberals seem to keep bashing and making fun of people when you should be focused on the story. Can you say Hypocrite?

Give it a break, comment on the story and stop the BS you are dishing out.

Steve ,

I'm curious why you think the rich should get even more wealthy while everyone else foots the bill? You shouldn't operate under the assumption that the top 2% made themselves wealthy or that they earned their money through hard work and ingenuity. The only people who usually complain about paying taxes are the crooks. ----> Al Capone etc..

So Steve, what should the government stop doing? It wasn't a hard question.

Steve-505729

Us Republicans we understand that if Obama lets the Bush Tax cuts sunset that the Govt will then start to take more money from the American people that they Earned.. we understand that it will pay down the Deficts in the Budgets that the DEmocrat Congress have and Are passing... we also understand that if Obama allows them to Continue that it will Add to the debt and Deficts Because of the Budgets that the Democrats in the House and Senate are Passing..

I dont understand why allowing people to keep their own money is somehow adding to the Debt..

I'm trying my best to see where you are coming from.

Where in the world did you come up with allowing people to keep their own money is somehow adding to the debt.

When you figure that out let me know!!!

Steve

THE BUDGET is how much the DEMOCRATS want to spend.. and they are not taking Enough money in to cover they Budget. So they Want take some more money from people that Earned it.

Not taking enough money to cover the budget because it's going to the top 2%. Don't forget Steve, we are paying the lowest taxes since the 50's.

Trr.. I understand that you want the Govt to take 700 Billion dollars more from 2 percent of the Population to pay for 47 percent of the population that pay no Federal income tax at all. I understand that you think its Fair to take money from 2% of the population to pay for the overspending of the Congress..

It seems that both... sides on this board are more interested in barbs and regurgitating their respective parties' talking points than actual discussion.

Joe in Albany,

Nazi Pelosi LOL LOL LOL.......... Great one man. The first time I've seen that one.

I rather like Fisty red head, Joe and Bill your not doing our side any favors by engaging in a battle of wits with severely unarmed people. Im a 10 year navy vet with 6 years deployed AP EMEA and Middle East. I appreciate every single person who has served this fine country. Service goes back 4 generations in my family. My grandfather was a Master Chief in the 1st Seabee battalion. My father was a Gunnersmate during the Korean conflict. I do not want to see MY neighborhood as a war zone (more than it already is ) I live in Detroit. I can see first hand by walking out of my house what the people of I want what you have so give it to me are doing to this country. If you want to do the research on WDIV NBC channel 4 from last year you can see the line of people outside Joe louis arena waiting to get $1500 in stimobama money as they are interviewed. In particular the 3 women claiming that the money is Obama's money and he gunna give us some. The interviewer asked several times "Do you know where this money comes from" followed again by, Its Obama's money and we voted for him so he gunna give us some! My handicapped wife and I had to replay it 4 times to get the full flavor of what was said. Sorry I like what Ive worked for and YOU cant have it. Im still laughing at fisty red head.

Steve-505729

I'm accountant for the company I work for and some people on our payroll makes 15,000.00 a year and they still pay FIT.

No...what I'm saying is this. They should be put in a higher tax bracket compared to the one they are in now.

For someone that makes 1.4 million a year their tax break was $150,000.00 a year and for someone thats makes 40,000.00 their tax break was $464.00 a year. Plus who ever made under $24.000.00 a year their tax break was $46.00 a year.

TRR..

I totally understand you are for Equal Treatment of all people, and that you only Want to raise Taxes on 2% of the people. I undertand that in your mind that is fair,

I also know that you think its Fair that the Federal Govt Continues to spend money that is not theirs. .I understand that you want them to Spend More. Even if that means Taking more money from its Citizens.. When in your minds have they Taken Enough. When do we tell our Govt to live within their means.. and stay out of our Pocketbooks

Now ..TRR..

Please.. tell us all.. How much taxes federal Tax did the person that made

1.4 million dollars?

40 Thousand dollars?

24 Thousand dollars?

Who paid more in Federal Income tax?

TRR is advocating an increase in taxes (or rather, to revert to the tax structure of 9 years ago) to those that can afford it, and they can afford it. It may not be fair, but then plenty of hardworking families never reach middle class status, which might be regarded as unfair.

As for the government spending money that isn't theirs, It all depends on what services you think the government should provide. It's relative. Clearly, you feel you're being robbed while he believes otherwise.

Steve -

The question isn't who paid more, it's who paid their fair share?

Proportionately, the upper 2% pay substantially less of what they make, than do normal, everyday people. (people with jobs, who pay taxes, not the 47% that you claim don't pay FIT- although I don't know where that number even came from)

(getting money back from your FIT filing is not "not paying taxes" it means you paid too much and the Gov't owes you a refund, BTW)

I'm assuming you aren't making over $1mil/yr. So why would you be fighting for those that do to have to pay less % in taxes than you or I do?

Please, explain this to me...

Don't know what happened because my screen said Sunni and @!$%#e. It is @!$%#e not a swear word. Didn't notice in time to edit.

Okay, I give up. I keep typing the word @!$%#e and getting garbage on the screen.

S h i a

Thank you, Steven.

Sunni, yesterday my life was filled with rain ...

Jody - That's okay; we know what you meant. I agree about Richard Engel - I've always looked forward to his reports and think he's one of the last of the old school "journalists" as opposed to the talking heads and blow-dries so prevalent on tv anymore.

I was thinking about you last night - got home a bit later than usual and was channel surfing and came across a Live From Lincoln Center production of "South Pacific" on PBS. Maybe not my favorite version ever - I grew up with the movie - but the songs and story are still timeless, especially "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught", which you had mentioned recently. During intermission, they had Alan Alda interviewing the daughters of Rodgers and Hammerstein and he mentioned more than once that the show was now 60 years old. That song must have been really controversial back then. I guess I just wish it wasn't still so relevant today. Guess I'll have to be a "Cockeyed Optimist" and choose to believe that someday it'll be a total anachronism.

Glad everyone got my meaning. For some reason, everytime I try to reply, it throws everything on the screen off, wouldn't even let me edit. I've rebooted several times.

South Pacific had a good deal of subtle messages woven in the story. Nice to know one of my earlier comments made you think of me, JoAnne.

Wonder of wonders, I've fixed whatever was wrong--the reply is in normal mode!

Retired, please don't thank me it was Dennis, columbus Ohio who left the link.

I keep thinking that we had those Bush tax cuts in place sinde 2001 and 2003. By that measure we never should have had this Great Recession. Because if tax cuts produce jobs, where are those jobs? The entire Reppublican mantra of tax cuts for the rich because they are the ones who produce the jobs should now be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as false!!! Those tax cuts did not produce jobs,, just a recession the likes of which we have not seen in my lifetime. Is not the entire sign of insanity that is you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result? How many times do we have to hit our heads against the wall before we finally say, maybe we should do something different.

If there is no longer a middle class, who is going to but the goods that the large corporations are producing? If I can no longer even afford to shop a WalMart, won't WalMart also go under? Without a roboust middle class, this country will become a 3rd world country. (I have no proof, just my humble feelings about this).

Terrific post, US Navy.

The real republican party is no longer the party of Eisenhower, Nixon; it is now the party which lives in the pockets of the wealthy. I have no problem with people becoming wealthy or earning as much as they can but this country cannot survive when the economic disparity becomes so huge than it destroys the middle class, and pushes the poor into oblivion. The economic disparity has never been greater since 1929--the parallels of the events leading to the Great Depression and those leading to the Great Recession are the same. There is no GOP fiscal conservative agenda except greed for those who already have too much power.

Jeff, thanks for the shout out. I’m glad you used it, read it and hope many more do also.

After the Republicans got the CBO score they got very quiet about their plan.

The crazy part is even THAT plan is better than that of current Conservative darling Paul Ryan, who would actually RAISE TAXES on 95% of Americans to give tax cuts to the very wealthy--and STILL produce a fiscal catastrophe. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=3&src=twt&twt=NytimesKrugman

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired - very good stuff. Very true stuff.

Trickle down never works!

Not sure about anybody else, but what trickled down on my working class family was dark and smelled bad. (yes we work every day, always have and always will - it is how we were raised. We knew that the rich were always only out for the rich!).

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired:

Thanks for the information regarding the Republican Economic Freedom Act of 2010. Unfortunately, there's not much freedom for the Middle Class in it. Only for the richest 2%.

I was born and raised as a Republican; my grandparent would probably be spinning in their graves if they knew how many of their grandchildren voted for Democrats. Even worse, I don't know that they would recognize the Republican party of today.

The Republican party that I grew up with believed that you didn't spend more than you took in, and other peoples' lives were their own and we didn't need to stick our noses into other peoples' business. My, how that has changed!!!!!!

Now the Republican party represents the richest 2% and the hell with everyone else. Also, spend all you can on defense/military; it doesn't matter how big the deficit gets! (Remember, Dick Cheney said Reagan proved that deficits didn't matter.)

Remember when Dennis Hastert called back the Congress to keep Terri Sciavo (sp?)on a ventilator; but when Nancy Pelosi called Congress back to vote on the extension of unemployment benefits, the Republicans cried it was a waste of time! That should tell you where the Republicans priorities are!!

No, I didn't leave the Republican party; people like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc. took it away from me. Ike Eisenhower would not be recognized nor welcomed as a Republican any more.

US Navy, Fiesty, Ron, Clara, Pat from Boston, Bev, Jody, Independent Redneck, Rick from KY: I have enjoyed your posts. I hope that I have added some to the discourse and discussion. If I have neglected to mention anyone, please accept my apologies.

To those from the Right; you know, you can disagree without being disagreeable. That's really what I miss the most!

Thank you Julie for the kind words!

A voice of reason is always welcomed here!

Don't tell anyone... but I voted for Ronnie in 1980 (my first election)!

Didn't take me long to figure out my mistake! lol There was no looking back after that!

Julie: Thank you for your kind words. Keep posting. wisdom has no limits.

Julie thank you for the kind words and for taking the time and presenting us with some very thoughtful words. You'll come on back and see us as often as you can now you hear

Julie,

Thank you. I had a brief stint in Ohio when I was 10 years old. My mom's 3rd husband got out of the Marine Corps and we went back toward his home town. He ended up working on a dairy farm near Lebanon, OH. We were there from August 1976 until January 1977. That was the winter the Ohio River froze solid. We had propane fuel in the little house provided by the farm and we were snowed in for I believe it was over 3 weeks. We burned our wood furniture and when the first thaw hit,...we loaded up what we could and headed to Texas. Talk about your basic frying pan/fire situation! At any rate, we probably have more in common as I, too, was raised by screaming Republicans. An Uncle gave me a week of John Birch Society Camp as a high school graduation gift. And, sadly, I, too voted for Reagan, twice.

As you can see, though, I am fully recovered, gainfully employed, college graduate (first in my family to do so) and raising a very diverse family in the Midwest. Would love to hear more from you on FR. Again, thanks for speaking up!

"That mosque being build at Ground Zero? It isn't a mosque, and it isn't at Ground Zero"

Where IS it?

Two blocks away.

They also want you to believe that, when Bush went on vacation, it was bad-but when Obama goes on vacation, (which seems to be every other week), it is good, because,

because,

well, because, it IS good. Because Obama never does asnything wrong. All his ideas are golden and have delivered us from a poor economy, outside threats, and waves of illegal immigrants.

Oh, and anyone who says differently is not to be believed because they are just 'haters'.

Ignore the FActs! Ignore the statistics! Ignore the debt! Just go on your computer, and write your daily psalm to Obama, and the country will be magically cured of all its ills!

Hey, it works for the dwindling minority of his supporters.

JoAnna, that's a nice summary. Can you also do it for Republicans? What do Republicans "want us to believe?"

Because, because ... I love you ...

Or wait. That was the Dave Clark Five, wasn't it? Sorry no joe.

Quite a musical morning out here.

Kate ~ Republicans want us to DISbelieve anything anyone else tells us.

You know something? I think I’ve just about heard enough ranting and raving and pontificating from the Yahoo wing nut deflection squad on this Islamic cultural center deal so I just have one question.

If you’ll have such a problem accepting the fact that this is private facility bought and paid for by a private citizen or entity which that individual or entity should be able to put to whatever use that individual or entity wants to within current zoning laws and ordinances why do you not have a problem with the corporation or entity that accepted 4.8 million dollars for this location.

This is “hallowed ground” right? Seems to me that you’ll ought to be looking more at somebody that didn’t care anymore about that than to sell it to somebody whether they were Muslim or not. I don’t remember any outcry about this or any other parcel that has changed hands down there since 9/11 or has somebody just decided that it’s a slow August so you’ll need to add this little deal to your crying and wailing list this summer

Kate-1855079: I agree with you.

Will one of you conservative posters lay out a convincing case of why Americans should vote for Republicans in November?

In all sincerity, present your best case to us here on First Read. You have a very large audience here - let's hear something that doesn't take pot shots at others.

Ignore the FActs! Ignore the statistics! Ignore the debt! Just go on your computer, and write your daily psalm to Obama, and the country will be magically cured of all its ills!

Based on your recent rantings... it seems to be working... ;0)

You used to be at least semi-coherant!

I do so look forward to your daily 'I HATE EVERYTHING OBAMA' ravings!

Same verse... different pew! lmao!

Gail,

They can't do it. Their argument will be filled with shots at the President based on absolutely nothing but hatred for the President. Facts or logic be damned.

JoAnna,

President Obama has cut taxes and they are at their lowest rate in the past 60 years.

"The U.S. tax burden has shrunk to its lowest level in 60 years, the Bureau of Economic Analysis said.

Including state, federal and local taxes, the average tax bill came out to 9.2 percent of personal income in 2009, USA Today reported Tuesday.

That's down from an average of 12 percent over the past 50 years. The tax burden has not been this low since 1950, the newspaper said."

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2010/05/11/US-tax-burden-at-lowest-point-in-years/UPI-74091273594893/

In this low tax environment, the Second Great Depression began, so there goes your "tax cuts stimulate the economy and create jobs" talking point.

No President in history has created less jobs than George W. Bush.

http://blogs.chron.com/txpotomac/2009/01/bush_legacy_by_the_numbers_job_1.html

The Bush tax cuts were designed to expire, and that is what they are gonna do.

The top 2% in this country are suffering no hardship and will get no pity from me about paying their fair share of taxes.

So believe what you want to believe . . . but there is the truth for ya.

"That mosque being build at Ground Zero? It isn't a mosque, and it isn't at Ground Zero"

Where IS it?

Two blocks away.

_________________________________________

It's close enough that the building was damaged by parts of the planes that brought down the WTC buildings.

That's TOO close.

Indy Redneck - I'm with you this morning - I've had about enough of this lunacy too. So I was thinking last night - let's forget the community center (a.k.a. "mosque") and just leave that ratty old Burlington Coat Factory as rundown and dilapidated and no doubt rat-infested as it currently is - I'm sure it would be a huge comfort to anyone affected in any way by 9/11 if they were to come to visit it. Better yet, let's all chip in and restore the Burlington Coat Factory to its former glory - because really, what says "hallowed American ground" better than a below-discount store selling cheap crappy clothing made in Indonesia and the Phillipines?

Okay.....I've got the sarcasm out of my system.....I'm going back to work now......

Gail, I can't speak for all conservative voters but here's my reasoning:

I believe in smaller government. There are certain areas where we must look to the federal government- defense and infrastructure in particular, because as a whole the system functions best with a central agency than it would under individual control. Most other areas are best handled at a local level with more direct control over the needs of individual states. Time and time again it's been proven that government bureaucracies are ineffective at administering programs. There is massive redundancy and waste in everything they touch. Bring it to the local level where there is more control.

I believe I am more capable of making decisions for my family than Big Government. I don't need a Czar looking over my shoulder at what purchases I make on my credit card, what food I feed my grandkids or level of healthcare I chose to maintain for my family. I believe these are intrusions on my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I believe that lower taxes are better for the economy. When I have more money in my pocket, I have more money to put into the market place which in turn puts more money into the government's pocketbook. When businesses make more money, they hire more workers and create more product. This increases the tax base. To me it's just plain logical.

I believe that along with lower taxes, we must reduce spending. It has been a long LONG time since anyone in DC has implemented this plan and I know that often when I am voting for republican candidates, they will likely fall in with the establishment and ignore this extremely important principle, but I find greater hope of success in voting for a fiscal conservative than I do in voting for the alternative.

I believe as a nation we are more likely to thrive when people take personal responsibility for their success than when they look to government to support them. I am fully aware of the responsibility we bear to take care of those who are incapable of caring for themselves or those who are retired after having supported the system their entire lives, but I do not believe we are benefiting ourselves by providing handouts to those who refuse to help themselves.

I believe in the free market. Government artificially propping up industries that consumers aren't willing to support dooms them to failure and us to higher taxes. Some government oversight is necessary to ensure good stewardship of our environment and success in our financial markets but micromanagement is as harmful at the government level as it is in an office environment.

Suzy-great post. You said it all.

Anna-I was actually channeling the "Wizard of Oz" because, because because because because---

because of the wonderful things he does. . .

which seems to be the Obama worshippers theme song.

Never mind that none of it works-only exacerbates the problems.

As to what the republicans will do when they regain control: REIN HIM IN. Then, at least, NO will have resonance.

And the sooner we get rid of the monstrous debt and ill conceived programs he has foisted on us WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED, the better off we will be as a country.

Suzy,

Many of the things that you believe in sound really good on paper, but in practice thet have left this country in shambles.

Unregulated capitalism has led the world economy to the brink of collapse. You speak of the "free market", but ignore all of the corporate welfare that creates anything but a level playing field. Why are "handouts" and subsidies to corporations good, but creating a "safety net" for actual people bad? You decry the government "propping up" certain industries, but that is the very thing that conservatives are trumpeting as the "solution" to the current recession - tax incentives and breaks for businesses . . . is that not "propping up"?

You believe that tax breaks are better for the economy, so how do you explain the tremendous deficits that they create?

You say you don't need a czar looking over your shoulder . . . does that mean you are able to ascertain when food is tainted, when financial deals are shady, when coal mines are about to explode all by yourself?

You speak of folks taking personal responsibility, but when the things you "believe" don't turn out the way you expected, do you take responsibility for that?

Thank you, Suzy 2005071. You have presented a cogent case and a voice for Republicans that has been missing for far too long. Other conservatives who post here, take note. This is how you influence people - through rational discussion.

This may be an example of what has long been referred to as "the loyal opposition." Suzy is loyal to her ideals, and (I'm stepping out on a limb here) I hope loyal to working with the majority in power for solutions that, while not 100% what she might want, at least involve compromising to get something of what she wants.

This is how politics SHOULD work! Thanks again, Suzy.

Great post Suzy.

all a person has to do is look at what the Democrats are doing to this country right now .. the really fun thing is Most Democrats know that what they are seeing is not what they Expected.. but the Liberals on this site will Defend the Liberals in Congress at any cost.. they are Cutting off their nose to spite their Face..

This is why the Republicans Will Mostly like take back the House. and Possibly the Senate.. It is not the Republicans that have Changed in the last year and a Half.. We still believe the same thing.. It is the Democrats and Independants that are changing .. They are the ones that can't Beleive what they are seeing happening to this country..

Poor no jo(anna), you spew out those right-wing false hoods, apprently believing everything you read without thinking to do just the tiniest ammount of fact checking.

So here's some facts regarding presidents and how much vacation they took during their first year in office.

Obama - 26 days

GW Bush - 69 days

Clinton - 21 days

HW Bush - 40 days

Reagan - 42 days

Carter - 19 days

Days spent at Camp David during first year:

Obama - 27 days

GW Bush - 78 days

so if it seems like Obama is on vacation every other week than it must have seemed like GW was never there? Maybe we as the people of this nation can tell Bush he owes us for unpaid labor. He can start at my house, I need my car detailed, my carpets cleaned, and the dog poop picked up in the yard to start with.

JoAnnasmith1 - I guess you are one of those rich kids who never had to work for a living. Sure sounds like it to me.

You are right - Repugnants never change, they have not changed in my 57 years of life and I don't expect them to - they are only for the rich, everyone else gets nothing, regardless of the fact that we, the working men and women of this country, are what has made it great and we are who actually helped make those suckers rich! yes, indeed, it is class warfare - been going on for years, the rich have always had an ax to grind with anyone making a good living, after all if we work hard and have enough money then we are finally on their equals. the only way to keep the working class from doing that is when the mega wealthy send their money to other countries (Cayman and Switzerland) rather than reinvesting it back here - now how unpatriotic is that? Very! No way are you patriotic if you prefer to hoard your money instead of putting it back into the country that made it possible for you to be rich in the first place! And that is exactly a big part of the problem, they won't reinvest in our economy because they want President Obama to be as big a failure as both bushes. Hopefully the American people see through this and will vote against every repugnant with a name on a ballot - I sure will!

SuzyQ, all those Czars, were AOK in your Life, until President Obama came into office, then a Conversion in life brought out the Czars are bad, bad, bad.

Small government, you say, like the Creation of Homeland security, with it's 900,000 new employees. Is that the small government you beleive in?

The GOP is a running joke with thier New Found Small Government idea.

Suzy,

I just want to tack on one other point Nashville didn't mention - historically states that tend to be 'red' and vote conservatively, well THEIR constituents ALSO are receiving handouts in the form of Farm Subsidies.

You BELIEVE those who claim to be Fiscal Conservatives will do a better job with government; but you completely IGNORE the facts that under Clinton Domestic Spending DECREASED and under W ALL spending INCREASED. You heard me correctly, ALL spending. So, I have a seven year old who BELIEVES in Santa Claus, does that make the myth a reality? Cuz' it sounds like you want to believe in something that has been PROVEN to not exist.

PS. Any word on when Michelle Bachman plans to give back her 250K in 'farm' subsidies? I mean she SAYS she's against government spending; but what I think she MEANS is she's against government spending that doesn't line her personal pockets.

Nash, I don't think the problem is my theories failing, I think the problem is the politicians failing. Logic and reason has been abandoned for votes. Both sides of the aisle are equally guilty of whoring themselves out for reelection. Have been for as long as I've been alive. I think you may have read into my post. I said nothing advocating "corporate welfare". A true free market levels the playing field for all companies and will determine who sinks and who swims. If you can't swim on your own merits, the government sure as heck (Trying to use my nice words this morning) shouldn't be propping you up either through tax breaks or subsidies. I also said I understand the need to care for those truly unable to care for themselves but handouts to those who've chosen their circumstances are a disincentive.

Yes, tax credits do improve the economy when accompanied by spending cuts. Politicians repeatedly drop the ball. I thought i was pretty clear on that.

I am pretty sure my stomach can tell me when food is tainted. But that would fall under the category of "some government oversight is beneficial". Same with OSHA regulations and some monitoring of banking activity to prevent a total meltdown. Attempts to force McDonald's to remove toys from their Happy Meals because they're making kids fat and monitoring every personal financial transaction would fall under the category of micromanaging.

As for personal responsibility, well, the less of it we expect, the deeper the quagmire we find ourselves in. I guess when something isn't working, I think it's a good idea to try and change it.

Gail, sadly, I don't think there's been any true cooperation from the critters in congress for decades. It is the only way we're ever going to actually get anything done and I think when everyone shuts their mouths and opens their ears we find a lot of common ground. If anyone has a clue on how to get the idiot politicians to do this, PLEASE share!

My PS- can we all put on our grown up panties and stop slinging insults in order to make our point? Democraps, Repugnants, Santa Clause myths, SuzyQ? Really? Seriously? We wonder why our government's turned into a cesspool of muck when we can't even hold a civil conversation?

Suzy,

I agree with you IN PRINCIPLE, but what I see IN PRACTICE is that whenever it is time to help "people", I hear about "the deficit", but whenever it is time to start a war or help a corporation, money is always found.

That bothers me.

I find that I am vicitmized by corporate over reach alot more than I am by government over reach.

I find the "either private sector OR government" framing to be a completely useless model, and yet much of the discussions we have hear are basically folks bashing the government, ignoring the real problems that the private sector creates, and then pretending that if we all just bury our heads in the sand and "trust" the "free market" (that doesn't even actually exist) everything will be okay.

I don't think the government is the solution to all of our problems . . . but I think it is the only entity that can provide a check to the tremendous amount of control that corporations have over every aspect of our lives.

I really, really, appreciate you for taking the time to have a conversation . . . look forward to more in the future.

Suzy,

I wear underwear. In fact, I haven't worn panties since about 4th grade. Sorry you're offended by an analogy that aligns your belief system as mythical.

Perhaps you can share with us an ACTUAL fiscal conservative Republican that is without 'sin' as it were on government spending?

Suzy, that was a great post. I find it hilarious that every single one of Nashville Fan's questions to you are actually answered in your post.

Clara, KCMO, you completely ignore the fact that Clinton was also working with a Republican-controlled Congress, which likely had a hand in controlling federal spending during his tenure. Does that suggest that Republicans are necessarily better stewards of our tax dollars? No, but you can't put half-truths out there just so you can attempt to make an argument. Nowhere in Suzy's post does she defend Bush's out-of-control spending, by the way, but don't let that get in the way of your incoherent post.

Union Baby, Tennessee

JoAnnasmith1 - I guess you are one of those rich kids who never had to work for a living. Sure sounds like it to me.

You are right - Repugnants never change, they have not changed in my 57 years of life and I don't expect them to - they are only for the rich, everyone else gets nothing, regardless of the fact that we, the working men and women of this country,

The Republicans are only for the "rich"? Really? Then who by chance are the Democrats for? Certainly not the "Not rich".

The Left of the country is constantly ranting about "compassion". Recent proof of this is with extension of unemployment benefits and the $26 billion "States bailout" bill just passed in the last week. But what is compassionate about these spending bills if you aren't creating an economic environment where unemployment is low and the states become prosperous? The Democrats compassion is nothing more then a patch on a leaky tire, a leaky tire they have created in the first place.

The Democrats have used companies and small businesses, the "rich" you talk about I guess, as their scapegoat for what is wrong with the country. But it is these companies, again the "rich", that provide the jobs the country needs. You don't see that the government has to work with who you call "rich" Union, and not against them? Without that working relationship we'll continue to see what we have today, a poor economy, high unemployment, and a lot of people suffering.

So Union, you can be the populist and be against the "rich". We see where that is getting us.

That's part of my objection to modern Conservatism, there's always an "it's never been applied properly" footnote. The campus Marxists of the 1970s said the same thing. Nowadays virtually everyone accepts that they were living in a land that didn't exist, a land of make believe. GW Bush was strong on Defense, cut taxes aggressively (especially for those already wealthy), kept his hands off the economy otherwise, dramatically curtailed regulation, and pursued a Social Conservative agenda of trying to push Christian faith into public policy and put new restrictions on abortion. His Administration aggressively tried to prosecute everything from fleeting expletives in broadcasting to internet porn, and he was true to his promise to install "Originalists" or "Strict Constructionists" on the Supreme Court. For 6 years his party held both houses of Congress as well.

In spite of all this we're still told that Conservatism has never really been tried. If that's the case then the only real Conservatism exists in a land of make believe, along with Marxism that works.

Let's say for a moment that the Clinton Administration only achieved a budget surplus because they were working with a Republican Congress. Why couldn't a Republican President achieve a budget surplus working with a Republican Congress for 6 years? http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

John, because Bush was not Clinton, and the Republican Congress working with him was not the same Congress working with Clinton. That is such a simplistic argument, it is almost laughable. Nowhere in my post did I say that it was the "only" reason.

I would call it part of ground zero. The the landing gear of one of the planes destroyed the building that was there! One of those facts MSLSD won't report on!

See Jill, you have a lot in common with those college Marxists I mentioned in 7.30

"Suzy, that was a great post. I find it hilarious that every single one of Nashville Fan's questions to you are actually answered in your post." - Jill F

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jill,

Needless to say, I didn't agree.

What I find "funny" is that people continue to believe in capitalist fairytales even as they are witnessing the fact that all of these rah rah talking points actually are not working.

Tax cuts did not stimulate the economy or create jobs during the Bush Adminsitration.

This is a fact.

Deregulation did not stimulate the economy or create jobs - it opened the floodgates for corruption.

This is a fact.

So I guess the real question is, why do so many refuse to accept that fact?

Why do so many give the government "personal responsibility" for the private sectors failures?

Nash, I guess I just have hope on this one- Lord knows why given the politicians I get to pick from but sometimes I'm just an optimist.

Clara, I don't know what I was thinking. Of course Naner Naner Boo Boo is the ultimate argument. My apologies.

Jill, Thanks, I try.

John, I guess I see similar in the liberal agenda- the Utopian world they're attempting to achieve has failed every time it's been tried yet we're told to believe each new attempt is THE way to make it happen and it's only failed in the past because the right people haven't tried it. There is common ground somewhere between your ideals and mine- I don't pretend to think my answer is perfect, it's simply what seems logical and reasonable to me but I try to keep an open mind.

John, nowhere was I defending Conservatism or placing some kind of footnote to a statement that "conservatism works." The fact is that Bush and the Republican Congress that accompanied him cut revenue but increased spending. This was the problem!

Following the kind of logic that you think is appropriate, then voters should vote in a Republican Congress in November, because then we'd have the same dynamics as we did when Clinton held office. Except you probably wouldn't agree with that, now would you?

Suzy, I see it differently. I see the most educated populace in history because we have public education. I see food that's healthy and drugs that are effective because we have the USDA and FDA. I see a Social Security program that has greatly eased poverty among the elderly http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1863 . I see millions of people educated under the GI Bill contributing to the greatest surge in economic activity in history. I see an entire generation of very expensive infrastructure improvements during that time that allowed that surge to become real. I see poverty cut in half thanks to the Great Society programs http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/ .

In short our world isn't a utopia, but I never cease trying to make it better. I'm looking at 100 years of successes to convince me that my thinking isn't too far off the mark.

Nash, can we contemplate the whole picture? There is a cause and effect relationship to every action. Yes, Bush cut taxes, but did not cut spending. HUGE failure in the making, but then Bush was not a fiscal conservative so it's not a shock that he blew that part of the deal. Several events that happened during the Bush administration also had a huge impact on the job market- 9/11, the .com bubble burst, Katrina, all of these things killed job rates through no fault of George Bush or anyone else. Yes, corrective measures could have and should have been taken in the financial industry, but in typical Washington fashion, the opposition party fought against those actions- the dems didn't want to enact more financial regulations any more than the republicans- it's political suicide. Hindsight may provide perfect vision but it doesn't affect the outcome of action/inactions in the past.

I don't honestly expect us to see eye to eye, but thanks for at least providing a civil dialog!

Suzy,

It truly has been a pleasure "talking" with you today. . . I do not blame President Bush for every bad thing that happened while he was President, and I agree that there were several things that happened that would have been beyond any President's control.

However, one thing that he did do that does fit in with conservative ideology is that he used our military to control areas of the world that he thought were vital. And he did it without any regard for what it was costing us.

Regardless of the merits of the Iraq and/or Afghanistan Wars, it would seem to be obvious at some point, we would have to pay for it. But I did not hear conservatives or tea party activists loudly exclaiming that we needed to rescind the tax cuts to pay for the war.

And what is more, folks who did bring up this question were called unpatriotic and unrealistic and told that "deficits didn't matter".

Even now, I often hear "conservatives" clamoring for us to attack Iran, and North Korea, and in some cases even Russia, but they never mention how we would begin to finance such an operation.

So how can "conservatives" be so gung ho to go into any foreign battle at any cost, but when the war is against poverty and unemployment here at home, suddenly that is "wasted money"?

Suzy, I am not trying to "convince" you to agree with me, I am just trying to explain why when I hear certain phrases . . . even if they are sincere when you say them . . . it literally makes me cringe.

As I have said in the past, both government and the private sector are run by people, and people will always make mistakes.

So I think the "middle ground" is first just acknowledging that "the government" is not some evil force put in place to ruin our lives, and the private sector isn't either.

But when a problem comes to our attention, we the people should be able to address it without all the nonsensical idealogical talking points that simply do not hold up in the harsh light of reality.

The Democrats have used companies and small businesses, the "rich" you talk about I guess, as their scapegoat for what is wrong with the country. But it is these companies, again the "rich", that provide the jobs the country needs. You don't see that the government has to work with who you call "rich" Union, and not against them? Without that working relationship we'll continue to see what we have today, a poor economy, high unemployment, and a lot of people suffering.

Only the "rich" provide jobs?? Dang, I better go over my brother's business and tell his five employees the news that they're out of a job because only the rich provide jobs.

Seriously only the rich provide jobs?? I thought one of the conservative talking point was that small businesses are the only way to recovery. Now it's only the rich. I guess it's rich guys that own small businesses now??

Last time history that only the "rich" provided job was the dark ages. All us "common people" known as "serfs" back then worked for the few "rich" or wealthly people. So is that what you're advocating? If so you first, I want to see how you like living with less than your average third world citizen.

To Joanna, Joe and all the other Obama haters....

YOUR conservitive pals talked us into this war on a lie. Never the less, the brave men and women of our armed forces did what they were asked to do despite their incoherat Bush doctrine and finger in the wind strategy changes.

They were asked to take out a dictator, they did

They wer asked to stop a civil war, they did

They were asked to train Iraqi Police and Armed services, they did

They were asked to keep staying on and have multiple tours of duty, and they did

Onama said it would not be an open ended conflict. It no longer is

Obama KEPT HIS PROMISE to pull combat troops out by 8/31. He did

He is resolving another mess that Bush got us into.

So now they come home, and here we are, liberals taking time out to reflect on the war and to thank them for their scarifice. And here comes the GOPers, noit sure how to react other than bash Obama or defend BUsh. I find it shameful that FOX didnt cover the withdrawal. The GOP/FOX/Tea BAgger coalition just cant accept that this is a major milestone and leave it at that.

How about manning up and saying thanks to the troops rather than sulking that Obama had to clean up another Neo Con mess.

First, I promise you, my thoughts are my own. Any resemblance to "talking points" is purely coincidental!

I agree, government is not inherently evil, nor are corporations, but when either are allowed to grow unchecked, bad things happen! I think both are too big for their britches right now.

Iraq & Afghanistan an interesting study. Historically, war has been a huge boom to the economy. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying we should start one to fix our current woes or that we wouldn't be better off if the ones we're in weren't going on, simply that up to this point, the wars we were involved in provided a stabilizing effect. I wonder where we turned that corner, I'm guessing mechanization was a big part of it- but that's getting off topic. I do think that reasonable and prudent defense spending in times of war is something that is unforeseen and may require deficit spending to finance the action but I will also accept that reasonable and prudent may not have applied in this circumstance. Deficit spending on an ongoing basis on any program we wish to pass at any time for any reason is about like taking out a 2nd mortgage on your home that you can't afford to pay back so that you can take a vacation and doing so every year. At some point the bottom falls out. You may not have heard folks on TV talking about the need to curb the spending but I promise you a lot of us who aren't worth the medias time have been right there with you.

Hey Dave in Kentucky,

Let's just take Michelle's (or who the paper's are calling Marie Antionette) Italian Vacation during this time that Barry is saying that we all need to cut back, to tighten our belts.

Expenses for Mrs. Obama's staff: That's $95,000 just for Secret Service.

The Air Force version of a 757: $146,000 for the round trip.

The First Lady will visit the king and queen on the taxpayer's dime.

The First Lady's group is said to occupy 60 rooms. A posh hotel, $3,000 to $6,000 per room a night and there are approximately 40 in her entourage.

OBAMA: (June 1, 2009) A sacrifice you may not have chose to make, but a sacrifice you are nevertheless called to make.

OBAMA: (June 1, 2009) Making a sacrifice for the next generation.

(March 30, 2009) A set of sacrifices from all parties.

(November 26, 2008) I'm willing to make some sacrifice because there are people who are goin'

through tough times.

OBAMA: (January 12, 2009) Everyone's going to have to give.

Oh and Barry has now taken 3 vacations since the Oil leak.

I truly have no idea where you get your stats from, NPR, MSNBC The State owned news...

Attempts to force McDonald's to remove toys from their Happy Meals because they're making kids fat and monitoring every personal financial transaction would fall under the category of micromanaging.

I love it when conservatives get all self righteous about 'the govmint' and how it needs to be hands off.......except of course the Womb, the Bedroom and your right to practice religion other than Christainity

Tim, I find the need to quote myself. See 19.6 for the whole thing if you care, but here's the important part:

Frankly I wish Team Elephant would step of the social soap box and worry only about the financial house. Social issues will take care of themselves as they always have but fixating on them divides the party and alienates the independents. Hardly seems a good way to sell your ideas...

You may accuse others of being hypocritical but please don't wag your self-righteous finger in my face.

Louis:

I watch them this morning for a bit. Joe is an A$$, Pat is a jerk and the rest just giggle along. Maybe MSNBC can put cartoons on for those 3 hours. They at least would be funny.

US Navy Disabled Veteran- Retired

I agree with you about Morning Joe. I wish MSNBC would put cartoons on for three hours, at least we would know what to expect. With Joe we never know when he is going to go off the deep end about some stupid issue. Why is he still pushing the mosque controversy so hard, what is his motivation, is he thinking about getting back into politics? Most of the other morning shows have backed off a little regarding the mosque, not Joe, he just keeps shooting off his mouth. I don't understand his motive.

I spent five minutes watching Morning Joe before deciding nothing has changed; I stop in weekly to see but not yet. I used to enjoy that program even when I disagreed but Joe has again become as nauseating as he was toward the end of his other show, Scarborough Country. Morning Joe needs a new host to regain its once enjoyable and honest political discussion. When Joe is off, the show has an entirely different and pleasing atmosphere.

But that's the whole point... three hours during the morning given to Right Wing backing... then the lady Andy or whatever her name is... then Andrea Mitchell... then FAUX News... don't get me started on CNN... they all spin the news as RIGHT WINGERS have provided answers and yet give no proof to the negative campaigns.

The same can be said about the blogosphere... people on the left play nice while all the racists lie...

patting each other on the back and all this hear hear is good to make each other feel better but in the end, the hate messages seep in and degrade the positive...

This site is a testament to that... there appear to be ten bloggers that crowd the FIRST THOUGHTS and pat each other on the back from pre-written posts while 30 hate mongers make their point that the president is a muslim. Then those ten reply that they are not playing fair. I noticed that and have only been blogging since they changed the format.

It would be due diligence to just ignore those negative posters and tell the true story.

The louder the mouth, the more people listen. Dignity. Humility. Hard work. Sincerity. Perseverance. Tenacity. Gone.

Perfectly said Pat!

It truly is a sad day for America! :0(

Do you think that Al Queda won on 9-11? What did we Americans do? We rolled over and gave up many of our freedoms ---Patriot Act with warrantless wire taps, reading our personal email. We invaded a country that did nothing to us. We started how many "secret" alaphabet organizations that no one knows who, what they do? In the war, we use mercenaries (XE and other paid military personal, Halliburtin, KRA) to fight and to provide services that previously was done by our soldiers.

We let corporations take over this country. We let banks gamble with our money and put the world economy into a recession or close to bankrupting the world.

Now this past summer we have talk of repealing or fixing the 14th amendment. And the latest is so many people no longer wanting to follow the 1st amendment. They appear to want government to dictate what religion is acceptable in this country!!

Did al Queda do all this? Is bin Laden successful at bringing down the United States of America? Or are we doing this to ourselves? Is power and money the only thing that we americans respect and honor any more? Take a long look in the mirror and see if you can honestly answer any of these questions.

Excellent, Pat.

Hey gals....get a grip! It is not over till the weight-challenged lady sings!!!!

It is true that the MSM has done nothing to shed light on the fear mongering and hatred and to call out the lies, but I've heard a little rumbling lately about that on more than just Keith's show. As I said before, I think the base has been resting, we did all work very hard. No, it is not time to give up or give in. I see it from FR: Americans should be ashamed!!! You are so right. Where have you been the last two years? Singing the song of Palin and Rushdie and putting their names and ideas in front of good reporting and calling out the lies? But maybe now you see what you have created and it will be the downfall of the United States to continue on this journey. So, let's all pull together now, take the laboring oar and let's get this ship turned around finally and headed in the right direction.

No more Mr. Milquetoast Reid, stand up there and fight. I think your number would have been much better. Same to you President Obama...how about a strong health care plan with a public option? If we do not keep pushing, we, the middle class, will have nothing.

Fired up, ready to go! Fired up, ready to go! Pissed off, ready to go! Yes we can, yes we can, yes we can.

Pat:

The irony here is that all of those "muslim extremists" are praying everyday in a makeshift mosque at Ground Zero" in the basement of a night club. If they were going to become radicalized and desecrate that hallowed ground it has happened by now.

Truth is a powerful thing but most of the right-wing nuts would rather die perpetuating a lie.

Cathy M: Fired up, ready to go! Fired up, ready to go! Pissed off, ready to go! Yes we can, yes we can, yes we can

So then go.

I mean, your slogans are so, . . . 2008. No one believes any of that bs anymore. We all see what these words mean after Obama has had a chance to implement his policies, they mean nothing. You're fired up? About what? What in the world has you so fired up? Certainly not Obama. Now that he has a record of un-achievement, there isn't much to be fired up about. Yes We Can? Yes you can what? Destroy the economy, spend a lot of money, pay of your friends at the unions? All rhetoric, all bs. You and your little Obama groupie friends are an Army of One on this one Cathy.

Dude, get over yourself.

Where did you see anyone here saying it was "a better, more peaceful religion than Christianity"?

CU,

Get off the cross! Somebody needs the wood to build a community center!

Seriously Christians like yourself should really quite trying to play the victim card it just doesn't hold water.

CU - what if President Obama were a Muslim? or a Buddhist? or a Hindu? or an atheist?

So what? This is America, right? Why would our President's spiritual beliefs bother you?

Religion has been the cause of many wars over the centuries. NOT ONE religion is pure and without warfare in its past.

Maybe the solution should be to abolish ALL religion! That would certainly solve all the problems of the world!

Please, copy and paste where anyone said Islam is better or more peaceful than Christianity. You can't because no one has. This is about the 1st Amendment which established freedom of or from religion, all religions not just one.

"Since so many of you believe that Islam is a better, more peaceful religion than Christianity, you all should be happy that 1 in 5 Americans believe Obama is a muslim, right? It's a "step up" in your eyes, no? Either way, all I have to say is Bwahahahahahaha!"

No one said that, least of all me, a Christian. But since you bring up the polling I'll respond by saying that it's proof that the Conservative "Big Lie" technique produces at least some short term results.

So, how does it make you feel to be part of a movement whose ideas don't stand on their own, but instead has to lie for political gain?

there it is CU Farley making things up again and lying. And yes Farley we do give President Obama credit for bring this Cheney/Bush debacle to an end. You should be proud of our troops instead of being worried about who is going to get credit for it's end. But your like Fox hate trumps honoring our troops. And don't be angry about Fox not reporting on the troop withdrawal last night, they choose not to report on it, they had to much hate to spew to take time to honor our troops.

The political party of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Former DNC Chairman Howard Dean, and New York governor David Patterson...right?

"The political party of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Former DNC Chairman Howard Dean, and New York governor David Patterson"

Ok, I see your point.

I don't know Amy. How would you characterize Nancy Pelosi's call to investigate the opposition to the mosque? Doesn't sound like a true believer in free speech.

Well Alan, is there a problem with wanting to know who's funding an effort to lie and defame a perfectly legal use of private property, already approved by the local zoning committee? If those folks were proud of themselves they'd stand up and say so.

I agree, Larry. People should really think about what Pelosi said. It should scare them more than anything else that's been said this week in regard to the mosque situation.

I was so reminded of how politicians change their positions. Last night, I saw a 1993 film clip of Harry Reid in the well of the Senate railing about rewarding lawbreakers by giving citizenship to "anchor babies" . He went on and on. Reid certainly has changed his tune now. Why? It couldn't be because Nevada has such a large Hispanic population, could it?

dirt: You mean Reid is a flip-flopper in the same vein as John "I voted against the war before I voted for it" Kerry?

larry,minot n.d.,

guys like you wipe yourself with the constitution as if it were tissue paper.the constitution doesn't just work your way, it works both ways. yes it protects the right of people to question the building of the mosque; but it also protects pelosi's right to question who might be politically inflaming this issue. the only thing you're defending is the true meaning of the word conservative. generally the word conservative means to conserve, to keep from growing. for example conservatives want to keep the government from growing. the way i interpret this word is that a conservative also wants to keep the intellect from growing. and the less the intellect grows the stronger the irrational becomes. for example as in believing that radical muslim bogeymen want to stick to it you by building a cultural center.

Mixed Bag -

Considering how much money Toomey has spent already on tv (a ton) I'd have expected him to be up a lot further. Of course, he's spending all that money on some pretty boring, ineffective ads ("Ooooh! Joe Sestak is (gasp!) a LIBERAL!!!!!"). I think Arlen Specter had an even bigger lead over Sestak at about this stage of the game, and all it took was ONE Sestak ad to change the score dramatically almost overnight. I don't know if he's running any elsewhere in PA, but he hasn't started yet around the Philadelphia area. I think it's just a bit early to start making predictions on this one, so I'll leave the spinning to you. Stay tuned.....

As someone "on the ground" in Pa., I can tell you that Toomey has been all over the TV with very negative ads about Sestak, which have largely gone unanswered. I hope Sestak is waiting til after Labor Day to respond. That said, it is actually a surprise that things are so close, given this barrage of negativity. After watching all those ads, I can't tell you one thing that Toomey stands for.

Imma go out on a limb here and say he probably 'stands for' W and the old regime. But even HE knows he can't say that on tv. So he's using this 'other' strategy.

It is still slow time and many folks are saving their cash,...let's see where the numbers are around the 15th of October. I will bet a pretty penny there will be a dramatic shift.

It was the same way in August of 2008, the republicans were jumping up and down about how they were going to take back the congress and keep the White House, the pundits were counting how many seats the republicans were going to take back, then reality set in the election, the Democrats gained seats and the republicans lost the White House to President Obama. The pundits and all the media are guessing they don't have a clue what is going on on in the country.

What is your idea to help with unemployment?

Reading JoAnna as compared to the real world, its easy to see that she is slowly loosing her grip. Anyone that will contradict themselves just to try and make someone else look bad is obviously either a liar or loosing it. I like to think shes loosing it, I know she is a liar. This is going to be so much fun.

Yes JoAnna, please explain to us your plan or better yet the Republican leadership’s plan to deal wit the unemployment.

The unemployed want to hear your ideas.

She doesn't hide her delight in bad news for America, does she? Republicans have been rooting for failure since before Obama was sworn in. They won't be happy until they have convinced all the investors and businesses it's too risky to spend their money, and the economy slides further downhill.

"loosing it" Frank? Oh, you mean "losing it". One mistake is a typo, two and you're possibly an illiterate, three, and we all know you haven't a clue.

So we should give credence to the opinion of an illeterate fool like yourself Frank?

Words have meaning Frank. Learn how to use them.

Amazing! Simply Amazing!

The large mouth a@@ either can't or won't answer the question asked of her - BUT does manage to call Frank out on a typo!

You can only twist and spin so much before even the stuck on stupid crowd figures out what you represent! lol

Amy B. Portland, ME

She doesn't hide her delight in bad news for America,

Delight? No not at all. What has shown improvement recently is that many of the Left of the country are starting to realize Obama and the Democrats are not the problem solvers they purported to be. And that fact is encouraging as it looks like Obama and the Dems are raiding the future of the country as payoffs to their supporters (see government workers and unions for details), and people are now tuning into that heist.

There is no delight in 10% unemployment. There is no delight in a poor economy. There is no delight in seeing the government fail at nearly every turn. There is the promise of a better future in that people are now realizing what the government should be doing, and what it should not be doing. The people realize they don't need government controlling every aspect of their lives. Every move Obama has made is to have the central government take more control of people's lives. We see the result. The economy is sinking. But that doesn't stop Obama, he continues to want the government to have more and more control.

What will be delightful is when we have people in the government that are not control freaks like Obama. And that day is coming.

So JoAnnaSmith1----

Following the rants of a Drug Abuser (limpballs) and the Wasilla Village Idiot is good? The Mensa meeting will send you an invite!

JoAnna Smith1

What is your plan to increase employment? What is the republican plan to increase employment?

We're stilling waiting for your or the GOP's plan, JoAnna Smith. Instead you turn typo critic.

Feisty - No one is trying to have a conversation with you. You're simply hopeless, brainless, and useless. You are the Stuck On Stupid Queen. You choose to be ignorant, you achieve your goal, and you prove it day in and day out.

And Frank didn't ask a question. Questions usually have a question mark, much like the one that is constantly above your cartoon shaped head. Frank was just doing one of his rants against someone that he disagrees.

And you just proved my point. I made that mistake on purpose knowing you would jump on it and you didn't disappoint. You are such a small person.

Like I said the large mouth a@@ either CAN'T OR WON'T answer the question asked of her by MANY?

Instead she chooses a feeble attempt at a 'smack down'...

Mixed Nuts... you're 'one' woman wrecking crew is in dire need of some maintenance! lmfao! From the sound of her she could use a good lube job!

The Libs whine "What's your plan, what's your plan"., your hands flailing around, spittle running down your chin. You "loosers" (FrankH's spelling used) just have nothing else to cry about do you?

Well, we know the Democrats plan did not work. So lets get rid of that one.

Gee, how about we have the government work WITH corporations and small businesses rather then like Obama does, pointing out day in and day out that government is the solution and businesses are the problem? Why not ask the businesses what would make them more competitive and prosperousrather the ladle more and more taxes and regulations on them? Maybe trust more in the People and less in the Government. That would be something new and different, so then maybe then they would hire people.

But that doesn't fit you Libs dogma now does it? That would mean you'd have to admit all the crap you've been preaching is just that, crap.

Sometime answers take a little time Feisty. Unlike your constant whines that appear to be programmed on a hotkey so you can use that stump of a hand of yours to press it every three minutes.

"There is no delight in seeing the government fail at nearly every turn."

The Obama administration forced BP to set up a trust of billions of dollars to compensate the Gulf coast residents for the oil spill - I don't call that a failure.

Federal dollars are flowing into the development of alternative energy sources - Maine is developing an off shore wind industry with those dollars, which is a long overdue development to get us off oil.

Federal dollars have been sent to states to keep teachers, police and firefighters employed. I am sorry if you think this is a waste of money, but "government job" doesn't have to be a dirty word, if you look at what services these people provide and the impact on the local economy if those jobs are lost.

Steps have been taken towards straightening out our health insurance mess. You can no longer lose your insurance if you get sick or be denied for a pre-existing condition. This is a big one for me, as my nephew has a heart condition that would make him uninsurable otherwise. As it is, the kid spends thousands of dollars for COBRA.

Wall Street has seen long overdue financial reforms, which address the very conditions that caused our economic crisis to begin with.

These are developments you would never, never see if Republicans held the majority or the Presidency. Republicans over saw the biggest transfer of wealth to the top 1% every seen in our history. Their policies were great for the wealthiest, but not for the country as a whole.

"Gee, how about we have the government work WITH corporations and small businesses rather then like Obama does, pointing out day in and day out that government is the solution and businesses are the problem? Why not ask the businesses what would make them more competitive and prosperousrather the ladle more and more taxes and regulations on them?"

_____________________________________________________

Actually, the Barry admin, realizing that it is clueless on jobs and the economy, did that and they received a 54 page detailed response on June 21, 2010. As would be expected from this clueless crowd, they are just ignoring it.

June 21, 2010

The Honorable Peter R. Orszag Director

The Office of Management and Budget

725 17th Street, NW

Washington, DC 20503

Dear Director Orszag:

As a follow‐up to your request to both Business Roundtable and The Business Council for examples of pending legislation and regulations that have a dampening effect on economic growth and job creation, we surveyed our membership to get their views. Attached are an Executive Summary and detailed description of what they see as government initiatives that will cause slower rather than faster growth.

Obviously the list is long, but we believe the cumulative effect of these proposals will help defeat the objectives we all share – reducing unemployment, improving the competitiveness of U.S. companies, and creating an environment that fosters long‐term economic growth.

As business leaders we are increasingly concerned that the political expediencies of the short‐term harm our ability to partner with government to create policies that foster growth. Now more than ever we need to work as businesses and as government to make the United States a place where we can attract the investment that is needed if we are to remain the strongest economy in the world.

We would be pleased to meet with you to discuss any and all of these issues.

Sincerely,

Ivan G. Seidenberg James W. Owens Chairman & CEO Chairman & CEO Verizon Communications Caterpillar Inc. Chairman, Business Roundtable Chairman, The Business Council

Attachments

Joanna-they are not asking you to provide solutions because they are sincerely interested in hearing your views.

They are asking a loaded question so that they can tear apart your answer.

It comes from the Rules for Radicals. Their uncle sol helped them get this incompetent elected, and they hope it will stop the landslide coming in November.

My response to these questions is to remind them that I have, in fact, read their little manual, and will not be drawn in so easily.

Your answer was good, by the way.

JoAnna,

You shouldn’t post something you aren’t prepared to defend. But you have had nearly 2 hours and nothing !!

The Democrats have a plan. You clearly don’t think it is working and perhaps it isn’t but you and the Republicans have NO plan. On top of that your Party filibustered help for small business. You know - the engine of the American economy.

My Dennis, you are threatening today, aren't you? The answer you seek is up a bit from here Dennis. I've also written extensively about it in the past, to you and others. Feel free to look back on previous postings if you wish. I'm not here to repeat them on yours, or anyone elses whim.

And I'm also not here to serve you or anyone else Dennis. Your little tantrums are at best amusing, but at least are pathetic. So please stop with the whiny rhetoric you and others demonstrate day in and day out.

So in summary, neither JoAnna or her friend no joe have any idea what to do about unemployment in this country.

But they are mad at President Obama because he has not implemented the strategies that they haven't thought of yet to make everything all better.

Makes perfect sense.

JoAnna if you confuse a challenge with a threat it is no wonder you are so negative.

Okay, I’ll accept your plan (above) to do the same that was done prior to 2009 and has brought us to where we are today. Not to mention how the deregulation lead to deaths in West Virginia and in the Gulf.

Of course those deaths are only collateral damage in the war to make businesses more profitable.

Joanna,

I believe Dennis and others are waiting for a legitimate response instead of the vague redundant talking points you dish out repeatedly. The truth is your answers are the same everyday and it doesn't matter how many times these people debunk your garbage you still come back with more of the same.

As usual you do not disappoint. Do you hear that? that's the sound of your own hands clapping in an empty room. You have been dismissed.

Hey, NJ All Bow - is that like the loaded question that Katie Couric asked Sarah Failin? What books does she read? Now that is realllllllllllllllly a loaded question.

We know the Democrats have had a plan. The problem is that even some Democratic economists say now that it has not or will it work. That represents a firm grasp of the obvious. It has been almost 15 months since the passing of the stimulus. Not only has it not worked, we are seeing no sign of it beginning to work. We have spent huge amounts of money with no forseeable results. Their only answer is to spend more. How much do we have to spend before you admit it hasn't worked? But lest I forget, any disagreement with the Democratic policies represents hate speech.

Again, on the mosque non-troversy--

Question to MSNBC/Mark or Domenico------

What was the President asked when he said "no comment on the wisdom of the site".....

spot on Nashville, when are they going to call out Fox for what they are? See MMFA for the rest of this spot on post that highlights where the riechwing droolers get their info.

Same chorus, different song.

One month after launching a jaw-dropping campaign of racial discord and warning of a looming, Obama-led “race war,” Fox News and the far-right media have turned the page of the hate hymnal and embraced a new enemy: Muslims.

Yes, the bigotry is off the charts. Yes, the purposeful misinformation is almost too plentiful to catalog. And yes, once the again the mainstream press remains mostly mum about the upsetting spectacle being played out for all to see.

The so-called “debate” in the press about the proposed Islamic center for downtown Manhattan is not a serious one. Just like the ‘debate’ in the press about racism and Shirley Sherrod was not serious. And just like the ‘debate’ in the press about Michelle Obama’s vacation was not serious. They’re not debates. They’re hate-based witch hunts sponsored by the right wing, and reporters and pundits ought to have the guts to point that fact out.

When is the press going to acknowledge that the rules have changed, and these naked smear campaigns being launched by Fox News and the far-right press have no precedent in our politics and, more importantly, they’re changing the way our news agenda is being set?

I mean, c’mon. Pam Geller is now acting as our nation’s newsroom assignment editor?

Yes, cover the controversy surrounding the proposed Islamic center -- it’s a legitimate story. But in the process, don’t play dumb about the proud hate rhetoric that’s driving so much of the story. Don’t play dumb about the vicious Muslim-bashing that’s front-and-center on Fox News as it rallies its base to loathe Arab-Americans, just as it seemed to rally its base to loathe African-Americans last month.

Rather than doing the right thing, the press has taken a pass and pretended the hysterical, relentless religious bigotry that’s been let loose by the GOP press isn't newsworthy or deeply troubling. The media silence is deafening and depressing. (And yes, exceptions are noted and appreciated.)

Trust me, folks at Fox News and friends get the message: Full steam ahead!

Thanks for posting this Nash! I read this article this morning and felt sad to see so many people still choose to be willfully ignorant. This is the 21st century after all and the truth can be found so easily. I guess I shouldn't be surprised after reading so many ignorant posts here.

Nash-Pew specializes in provocative polls-remember the one about the media? I also hold them responsible for helping Axelrod marginalize Obama's opposition by labeling them 'birthers'.

There is an interesting aside to the 'birther' controversy, done by PPP Polling, a DEMOCRATIC polling organization. By digging deeper, they discovered that, while, indeed, there was a small segment of the population that believed, erroneously, that Obama was born in another country, the great majority who answered in the affirmative to the question KNEW he was born in Hawaii. Did they not know Hawaii was a state? Yes, they did. Most people who answered that they believed Obama was born outside the U.S. seemed to think it was a trick question-they made the distinction between the continental U.S., and Alaska and Hawaii. They asked a similar question about Palin being governor-and got the same percentage of answers. I guess there are some people who are way, way too literal.

Anyway, on this 'religion' question-I hardly think it matters to anyone, but will be used to knock Obama's opposition. On realclearpolitics, there is a headline story , "Obama Seeking an Enemy". He seems to be having a hard time.

For the record, you can count me as one who actually DOES believe that he sat in a church for 20 years and never heard any of the hateful things the Rev. Wright was saying-although, if polled, I would not have said he was a 'christian'.

See, I am pretty sure that the only thing Obama worships is the man he sees in the mirror.

One thing that did bother me in the First Read story here is to say that Obama is "more religious" than either of the Bushes and then support the statement by saying he has a prayer sent to his Blackberry everyday. The weather comes to my Blackberry everyday, but it doesn't make me weather forecaster.

It bothers me, that whomever of you wrote this, would assume that you can assess the level of religion anybody possesses. And, it was a very odd statement to include since the story was jabbing at people for making assumptions about Obama's religion.

I found that statement odd as well dirt.

I will never forget the sentiments of Colin Powell when he endorsed then-candidate Obama for the Presidency--he reminded us that there are graves in Arlington of Muslims who have given their lives for our country and asked why it should be a terrible thing if a candidate were a Muslim. So it makes me doubly sad--that President Obama is lied about and people believe it but also that the lie makes a difference to so many people.

Excellent point Da Noid!

The problem is certain reps. are using this bill to push through completely unrelated unnecessary spending. If they were to get rid of everything NOT related to the first responders bill it would probably pass a lot easier.

Not to get all typo Nazi on you, but what's a riechwing? I'm going to go on a limb and assume you mean reich (like the Bills quarterback). They way you spelled it would make it pronounced 'reek-wing'.

Chef Darrell

Do you see any delicious irony in your post at all?

Is it so hard to let a potential typographical error go unscathed?

Hey, Suzy-2005071

Do you consider 50,000 troops left behind in harms way a "qualifer"? Bush and Cheney got us into this war on falsified information. That's pretty much been confirmed over the last several years. How is that a slam?

You sound as though you're disappointed that our troops came home ("the libs finally get what they want-end of official combat operations in Iraq") Don't you want our troops to come home? You'd rather they stay there????

Oh...I get it...you're one of the "Fight 'em over there, so we don't have to fight 'em here" folks. Cowering under your bed, eh?

Yeah, you're right, I do find it better to fight 'em on their land than to fight 'em on ours. Seriously, did you enjoy watching attacks on the USS Cole, the Twin Towers, the Pentagon? 3000+ people died for going to work in one day. I would prefer to never see that happen on US soil again. I thank God every day that the only time I ever hear a bomber flying overhead is when I go to an air show. If that makes me a coward, well, I guess I can live with that.

No, qualifiers are things like "Bush and Cheney's illegal war" "even though they were lied to", "but we aren't REALLY out of Iraq cuz we're leaving 'advisors'"Congress allowed the action. Our troops volunteered for duty, many after the initial invasion, knowing full well what they were volunteering for. I would prefer every single one of them was tucked in safely next to their loved ones every night and that 4415 families weren't left with a gaping hole because they've made the greatest sacrifice anyone can. But I think it's a blatant insult to every single one of those troops and their families to continually diminish the efforts they made at the request of our government. I don't care if you disagree with the action, you insult their sacrifice by calling their war needless.

Suzy - you're right. Some of us liberals aren't happy. We won't be happy until those responsible for the deaths of our brave men and women in Iraq are brought to justice. It's not enough to bring them home, we need to make sure our govenrment never, ever does anything as manipulative, criminal and immoral as sending our troops to war based on lies. Period. Yes, the Bush years do have consequences. You can't just erase the damage as so many of you think you can.

Jimsepa, you might be on to something. If EVERYONE responsible for sending our troops to Iraq was brought to justice, that would give us a pretty fresh start on Congress. Maybe we could bring government back to the people and actually fix the quagmire we're stuck in. Sane, logical main street types who understand what it takes to make a budget work and who understand that while we may see slightly different paths to getting there, we all want the same outcome and can find common ground to make it happen. This could work...

While it pains me to admit it, I agree, Suzy. No matter how much I get on my anti-Bush/Cheney bandwagon, it was Congress who funded the war - a congress made up of Republicans, Democrats and Independents who didn't have the guts or political will to question our actions. I would also agree that we need sane, logical main street types who are able to find common ground. Unfortunately, our system is so partisan and people so angry (not just now, but also during the Bush years) that it is hard to find someone who can lead us out of this quagmire (sp?). I am as liberal as they come, but I don't care for Pelosi and Ried - they don't represent what we need to move the country forward. It would be nice to hear the same from right wingers who should be denouncing the likes of Palin and Boehner who just inflame situations rather than fix problems. Maybe when the public on both sides of the political isle stop pandering to political extremes , we might be able to find leaders who represent our best interests and not their own fame and political fortunes.

See! I KNEW there existed a plot of ground in the middle where we could agree! You are so right about the partisan nature of our current system- frankly I think the media has a lot to do with it. They really only report on the fringe of either side. The 80% of us in the middle get lost because we're boring- we don't get ratings or sell newspapers. Frankly I wish Team Elephant would step of the social soap box and worry only about the financial house. Social issues will take care of themselves as they always have but fixating on them divides the party and alienates the independents. Hardly seems a good way to sell your ideas...

What else do you 'spose we might agree on if we try?

DaveNJ - I am on the Philly of the river and I couldn't have said it better - we are relentlessly bombarded with Toomey's misleading attack adds - night and day; spouting the same outdated rhetoric. Mark my words, though. Sestak will come out swinging soon enough and we won't hear another word from Toomey after November.

It's a typical libbie ploy, distract everyone from reality by propping up what amounts to a non-issue. I am of the mindset that had this happened in a non-election year, this probably wouldn't even be news.

Chef - What a joke. How can the mosque issue be a "libbie ploy" when it was the repugnants who started the controversy in the first place? Unlike the right wingnuts, us liberals truly believe in the constitution and don't just give it lip service when it's convenient.

I'm pretty sure the good people of New York were the first to be against the mosque being built.

And I'm with them!

If Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is so set on "building briges" then he would be more open to what New Yorkers and the majority of Americans want!

Obama doesn't listen to what the majority of Americans want....that's why he's having a "bad summer".

A liberal ploy Chef? What rock have you been living under? Is this Fox new line, blame it on the liberals? Fox is the ones trying to keep it alive with their lying.

The Obama's are about to embark on another 10 day vacation. Nice to be rich isn't it?

What kind of cheese do you prefer with your WHINE?

MOMINNJ -

Those bush tax cuts are reallly working well for you aren't they! Yep more tax cuts more money to spend as it "TRICKLES" down -

Oh - and you complained how many times about the Bush annual MONTHLY vacations to texas?

The silence is deafening.....

Paul S, NY NY

MOMINNJ -

Those bush tax cuts are reallly working well for you aren't they! Yep more tax cuts more money to spend as it "TRICKLES" down -

Sure Paul, whatever you say. Here Paul, lets do it your way and raise taxes and deficit spend ourselves to prosperity. What could possibly go wrong with that?

Fiesty-here we see compassion at work.

Mominnj-you, along with 500,000 people who just filed new claims for unemployment, and millions of unemployed, (including those stranded in the 'out of the labor market ' pool), are the 'beneficiaries' of Obama's economic incompetence.

Unfortunately, your noticing that his plans do not work, and actually make things worse, puts you on top of the list of those who must be shouted down, because everyone in this church must worship Obama.

The congregation is dwindling, though.

Where's the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" speech from the right? OH right! I forgot this is the lets blame Obama for everything crowd.

No Joe you show your lack of knowledge by calling this effect "Obamas economic incompetence". His policies have yet to be implemented. But please continue with your rant.

(:^D

So mominnj your house started losing value when? When did your business start to falter? You mentioned the value of your home started it's fall 2 years ago. so how many of Obama's policies were in effect 2 years ago? Oh thats right he wasn't president then...

Fiesty-here we see compassion at work.

Oh... I'm SO sorry! Like she's the only one that's hurting out there! PUHLEEZE!

Hey NoJo; Since you're so compassionate & giving person WHY don't you let her move into your fully furnished beach house in the Keys?

She might have had an ounce of sympathy from me UNTIL she couldn't resist the right winger vacation rant! How many times EXACTLY has it been PROVEN that 'W' had taken TWICE as much vacation time at this point in his Presidency?

NEVER stops you idiots from repeating it NOW does IT?

Yoo-hoo? Dan?

Does a $787billion (now up to $840billion) stimulous package ring a bell? It was supposed to creat 600,000 jobs LAST SUMMER. Didn't happen.

Was supposed to keep unemployment low-but it didn't. The only reason unemployment is not 11% is because BLS keeps putting hundreds of thousands of the unemployed into the 'out of the labor force' pool.

His policies have been implemented, okay. They've failed. You and he are about the only ones who don't seem to recognize that.

Doesn't change the facts.

"His policies have yet to be implemented."

Dan, would you care to explain what the HELL he's waiting for????

I almost forgot NoJo... I'm sure the 'fancy' napkin rings will come in handy when she's dining on Kraft mac & cheese!

Once again the two Joes do not disappoint.

Waiting for? Do you really not understand the logistics of our government? Do you think that because a bill is passed that suddenly overnight everything gets better? The truth is that you cannot know the success or failure of Obama until his policies have been given adequate time. I could point out that the economic free fall has stopped but with you two what is the point. You refuse to acknowledge any facts that refute your nonsense. Once obama's term is coming to a close we will all have a better idea and not just leave it to opinion and uneducated guesses.

No Joe....maybe you should re-read my earlier post about your idea of "facts".

somebody who thinks that an unexpected jump in new unemployment claims to 500,000, not to mention record low housing starts and record high bankrupcy filings is evidence that an economic freefall has been stopped cannot be reasoned with at all.

I hope you aren't running for president of the Obama fan club, though, Dan. Nashville has that all sewn up.

Hey, Nash? given his understanding of mathmatics, (let alone economics-you need calculus, econometrics, statistics-all kinds of math he'd never understand), I wouldn't let him be the club treasurer, either.

New memberships? Maybe-but I don't see many signing on, and it is a shame to put a person in a position doomed to fail.

How about refreshments? Nope-Fiesty has that job. Well, maybe he can fold the chairs after the meetings.

Dan austin, Tx: Waiting for? Do you really not understand the logistics of our government? Do you think that because a bill is passed that suddenly overnight everything gets better? The truth is that you cannot know the success or failure of Obama until his policies have been given adequate time

And how many years is that Dan? 2? 5? WOuld that be adequate time? Certainly the number is not 8, because then we could attribute any recovery to Bush's policies, and your type just wouldn't be able to deal with that.

And Obama bragged the economy was getting better, and he said that a year ago! Is the economy better or worse then it was a year ago Dan? Seeing any "Green shoots" Dan?

As stated you two never disappoint. Where are all those jobs that were created from the tax breaks?

Do you two really want the saved jobs vs created jobs argument again? That hasn't worked out for you two in the past.

Your pretzel logic doesn't confuse me.

No Joe what the hell are you talking about? (mathematics) Do you even know?

As stated before ladies...continue with your rants. I know who and what you are and no twisting of words or vague talking points will change that.

Dan, are you going to answer my question? How long does it take to judge Obama on his economic success/failure? You haven't answered the question Dan. I expect a response Dan. Why is there such a delay in your response Dan? Do you not know the answer Dan? You should be ready to defend your claims Dan. Come on Dan, we're expecting a logical and reasoned response from you Dan, because as you have stated, you are someone that is on the "team of reason and logic". What is the answer Dan, 2 years, 5 years?

Already answered.... maybe you should read instead of just waiting for your turn to speak. You really might accidentally learn something.

Come on Dan, you can do better then that. Even Obama said his economic policies would work quickly. His economic team said unemployment would stay below 8%, it didn't. Obama's team claimed they'd create 600,000 jobs last summer, they didn't. Obama talked about all these "Green shoots" of economic growth, turned out to be not true. In April/2010, VP Biden claimed "500,000 jobs would be created every month", they haven't been, then Biden claimed the 2010 summer would be the "Recovery Summer", it wasn't.

So are you are saying Team Obama didn't know what he is talking about Dan? Are you saying we should ignore the ramblings of Obama, Biden, Geithner, and the recently fired, ehh resigned, Romer and Orszag, and believe your wisdom on when we should judge Obama? You certainly have a huge ego Dan. You'll need it to fill that empty head of yours.

I donno.

I'm a consertative. However, I rather the President took more vacations (and congress also). There'd be less chance to really mess things up in DC... ;\

Dan said: "Do you really not understand the logistics of our government? Do you think that because a bill is passed that suddenly overnight everything gets better?"

What happened to that "change we can believe in"?? Sounds like you are saying it's the same old, same old, incompetent govt under the Barry admin.

The Porkulus bill was passed a year and a half ago, not yesterday. What happened to all those "shovel-ready" projects that were going to keep the unemployment rate under 8%??

The only thing the Barry admin has that's "shovel-ready" is lefty liberal apologists for his failures, like you, shoveling the BS.