Ron:

Right on. My brother-in-law who is a MBA, CPA is a moderate republican very active in his church. He is re-thinking his position as well as many others. He feels that his party has deserted him in favor of a select few. He has nothing in common with the tea baggers, Wall Street, Big-Oil etc. He works for a government contractor building transducers for Navy SUBS.

I am hearing this very arguement from many of my customers as well. They are pissed at NFIB and the US Chamber of Commerce saying these people no longer represent them and whant their needs are.

I think what we are seeing is that the American People are feed up with all of it. The NBC/WSJ poll (and you know what I think of polls) has Congress as a whole with a 21% favorable rating. 8 out of every 10 Americans think the system is broke. And it is.

They are tired and feed up with the obstructionism, the lies, the lack of responsibility, morals and ethics. Just name it. They have had enough.

The people are looking for people to elect that will bring this country back to middle america. Unfortunately the pickings for good political candidates is slim at best.

Ron, welcome back. We've missed your great thoughts. And thanks for your reply to mine.

RON,

That is an excellent point that Republicans can honestly say that they did not leave the Party; the Party left them. Yesterday, the real person in Washington Dc who swoare his oath on the Quran, Keith Ellison, a Muslim said his father was a Republican which I found to be an interesting tid bit. Keith's father said the Republican Party left him.

Similarly we on the left need to stop this outrageous critiscim of the President. What Gibbs did is sympotmatic of the WH 's frustration, understandly. It's up to us to support the President or else there will be a Republican agenda springing forth each and day; simply beause this infighting appears to be a concession to the trolls.

For instance, These are the results of a new Pew Research Poll

*It’s a fact that Republican presidents have run HUGE deficits compared to their Democratic counterparts. Why don’t trolls know it? Easy, they get all their info from the defacto leader of the Republicans and Tea Baggers, the big fat lying windbag, Rush Limbaugh who gives his marching orders to the FOX NATION. Simiarly, our critism gives rise to these trolls to ponce on.

* The 1/3 of Americans that didn’t know TARP was passed under Bush are totally ignorant. They have to be Republicans.

Michael Steele caved to the Tea Party BECAUSE a fool

Ron,

You are very right. As a republican, I am faced with a very tough decision. Do I vote for an ultra-conservative canadite (who's values and some policies I do not agree with) or a democrat (where I don't agree with most of their policies)?

Unfortunately John McCain started this mess, when he unleashed Sarah Palin into the political limelight.

I need a canidate that will let people choose to marry who they want to, who will stop trying to hinder corporate innovation with restrictive regulations, that will only help the people so much until he/she says "enough! do it yourself! stop relying on government handouts!" And will let the Bush tax cuts expire.

so, Ron, in your opinion, people who know that we cannot spend our way out of debt are the crazy ones? I get it.

Once again, you're wrong. Nice spin, though.

Kind of like First Read's spin on the poll numbers. One question in particular: is Obama better than you thought; worse than you thought, or about what you expected?

My answer would have been 'about what I expected'. Anybody on this board think that means I have positive feelings about the job he's doing?

Didn't think so.

As for the generic-spin away, guys. I'm curious, though-in many parts of the poll, we got numbers going back to the Ice Age, but in that one area, where there were germane issues, the history cut off at 1998. You don't think the numbers from, say, 1994 would have been informative?

Nah.

Note to Fiesty-I guess somebody read the exchange I had with Jeff and inferred from it that I am a 'retired' teacher. The only thing I'm 'retired' from is the classroom. As I've said before, I left teaching to continue my education full time-despite the fact that I could have gotten the taxpayers in my town to pick up the tab had I stayed on, as many requested. I'm more properly referred to as a 'former teacher'. It's Jeff's mom who was retired-not me.

Cult:

Thank you for your comments.

What I'm going to start watching is a moderate like Romney. In the 2012 election, will he garner enough moderate votes to win the GOP nomination, only to be torpedoed by the right wing. The Republican gap between the right wingers and the moderates is far from healed.

Cult,

Very thoughtful post. Thank you for your perspective. We need more of this from others as well (well thought out conversation).

I agree in that the pickings for candidates that mesh with our beliefs, whether they be (dem or rep) are getting hard to find. Instead we are getting money bags that are in a mid-life crisis looking for something to do.

We have them on the democratic side as well.

Cult - I understand your delima and wish you well with your choice, I have relatives who are in the same boat. All you can do is research the candidates running in your area and try to find one who best represents you. I appreciate your candor and honest and I hope you are able to feel comfortable about your vote. I have a state Senator who will not get my vote, even though he is a Democrat like me, he is way out there - almost tea party material, and he has made this conversion just to try and hang on to his seat - I'm not much in favor of fence riders, like my Granny always taught us - don't ride that fence, if you do you will ultimately at some point come up with splinters where you don't want them!

Why is it that all of you Liberals seem to think you know the Republican party so well? You don't vote for it or do you believe in any of the principles it represents; but yet you are all experts.

I say, continue thinking that you have the Republicans figured out. Keep looking down your noses and rolling your eyes. Keep calling anyone not a Democrat a damn racist, bigot, homophobe, thug, etc.....and I guarantee you will pay in November. If the republicans win OCngress back, I hope just out of spite they go in and begin to reverse all of the BS that has been pushed through. We will see how you like that.

Most of you Dems classify a moderate Republican as someone who agrees with you 90% of the time. That is an Arlen Spector type and you see what it got him.

I remember the real Republican Party, because I used to be an active member of it. The REAL Republican Party was fiscally conservative, but socially liberal. We understood that each and every American had the right to determine their own moral code. That included; what church to belong to, what doctrine to believe, or the right to be a non-believer. We were concerned about equality of the genders, and we weren't so interested in what consenting adults were doing in the privacy of their bedrooms. We also believed that ALL had a right to the American dream, regardless of color, gender or religion. I did not leave the Republican party. When they allowed the takeover by the "Christian Coalition" Pat Roberts, Jerry Falwell, Phyllis Schafly and the like, it left me. That the "tea bagger" movement has dragged that Grand Old Party further to the right, making them seem more like the Taliban and unlike reasonable Americans is a crime. Those great Presidents of the past, Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and other Republicans who did their country proud would not be members of that same Party today. They wouldn't want to, and the Party wouldn't have them. It may be too late for the Republican Party. They may be relegated to the ash heap of history if they don't come back from the precipice that they are on. I will remain with the Democratic Party, upholding the traditions of individual freedoms. I cannot be a Republican.

A vote for you as usual. Your posts are right on as always.

I'm sure that the Tea Party will be the nail in the coffin for the Repugs this time around. Perhaps for a long time. If you dance with the devil, don't be surprised if bad things befall you. Will they be the Repugs Waterloo?

Ron, good post this morning.

NoJo, most people answer "what I expected," because we by our nature like to be considered right. The truth is those on the right didn't expect this President to pass most of what he has. While folks on the left expected him to pass more progressive versions of what he has. If everyone who took the poll was honest very few would answer "what I expected."

Excellent post, Ron. For myself,

I remember the days of Watergate when Republicans were shoulder to shoulder with Democrats demanding answers of the Nixon administration. They were hardly in the lock-step, ideology-over-everything place that they are now.

Thank you guys for your comments. I know a lot of you do not agree with my views, and we have disagreed on a lot things, but it is good to know that, politics aside, we can be cordial and understanding of one another.

This also begs another question. How can we fix the current system? Is the two party system really the best we can do? If we try for a multi-party system, will this create even more stalemates (due to different beliefs and ethnic backgrounds from one district to the next)?

Ron,

I agree with you. I like to see Mitt run in 2012. Hopefullly religion won't be an issue since he's a Mormon. A smart business man and was a Governor.

Thomas Paine said society is a blessing. Government at its best is a necessary evil, at its worst an intolerable one.

I feel Bush's big government was the former approaching the later and Obama is the later. With respect to the size of the federal government and spending, Bush and Obama represent a distinction without a difference except for degree. Neither Bush, or Obama represent the majority of Americans.

But what really bothers me so much about Obama, is that he seems to believe the opposite of Paine, that society is evil and government is a blessing.

I wonder if America, society, feels that way.

I am still trying to figure out what you are in the Middle of sir. This speaks directly to the issue at hand. Why is it that folks on the far ends of the spectrum think they are in the middle, when most of their comments and actions say otherwise?

I think it is our culture just accepting extremism. Seems so many are pumped up on this over-blown "reality" we are surrounded with via every media outlet. How many of us can say we have seen a reality show that is anything like our reality?

I would imagine this is what happens when you let entertainers set the moral compass for a nation, instead of individuals, families and communities setting there own.

IntheMiddle, before you get on your I am black and served in the military with Rambo high horse for the day, let me remind you, you are not the only one.

No Jo

Note to Fiesty-I guess somebody read the exchange I had with Jeff and inferred from it that I am a 'retired' teacher. The only thing I'm 'retired' from is the classroom. As I've said before, I left teaching to continue my education full time-despite the fact that I could have gotten the taxpayers in my town to pick up the tab had I stayed on, as many requested. I'm more properly referred to as a 'former teacher'. It's Jeff's mom who was retired-not me.

No Jo, yes my mother retired but she was forced out because of budget cuts, and the union she was very loyal to deserted her and alot of others. i think you did it right, you left to do something else that made you just as happy, instead of trusting the union to protect your job as a good teacher, and let the bad one stay. before she died, that is what she says hurt the most.

Cult of Personality

You and I are nearly on the same page: "I need a candidate that will let people choose to marry who they want to, who will stop trying to hinder corporate innovation with restrictive regulations, that will only help the people so much until he/she says "enough! do it yourself! stop relying on government handouts!" And will let the Bush tax cuts expire."

I voted for Gerald Ford when I was 18, the last "nice guy" Republican there has ever been. Since then, it's been Democratic candidates only, at the Presidential level, for me, and an occassional Republican for other offices (yes, I'm sorry to say now, I did vote for Olympia Snowe before she reneged on supporting healthcare reform). I think people from both parties are closer together then the pundits in the media and the demagogues in politics allow us to think. Someday, the country will pull together again.

I like Mark Warner of Virginia, he is my ideal candidate and the one I wanted to vote for in '08, but he dropped out of the race.

newdayDAWNING:

Excellent comments; It would shock ITM, but I was once a Republican...a long, long, long time ago. I left the GOP during the Viet Nam war when the GOP wanted me to support our country, even when the war was wrong.

I know, Ron. I don't think that people understand how far the Republican Party has migrated from its roots.

Evolution of the Democratic Party

Once upon a time there was a fellow by the name of Bill Clinton who was President. The man was of questionable moral character, but his political instincts were sound. When the people spoke loudly about their dissatisfaction with his first two years, he listened and moderated his approach to governance. There were battles with a newly energized Republican Congress to be sure, but overall Clinton presided over a period of impressive job creation and economic growth. And – as the left never ceases to remind us – he left office with a federal budget that was in surplus, a condition that was unsustainable but good for some brownie points nonetheless.

Fast forward to the next Democratic President, a fellow named Obama. Well by golly, it sure would be hard to make the case that this man has taken a moderate approach to governance. To the contrary, he came into office with an extreme leftist vision for fundamentally transforming the country and he has done what he could to implement that vision. He hasn't gotten everything that he wanted, but he's gotten enough to build on going forward, as he constantly reminds us. And he has done so despite the overwhelming opposition of the public to many of his policies, such as HCR. This man and his Democratic partners in Congress have done more to polarize the country than any other politician in my lifetime. And what's happened to the moderate Democrats? They've been shaken down Chicago style in the President's quest for votes to implement his leftist agenda.

The fact of the matter is there are plenty of extremists on the Democratic side, and they're the ones who happen to be in charge these days. They're the self absorbed elitists who say the public is too dumb to understand the great things they want to do for the country, so the public be damned. They're the ones who have taken a difficult fiscal situation and made it much worse by running around saying "Bush never paid for any of this stuff so why should we." And they're the ones whose leftist policies are failing miserably to revive the economy and the job creation that comes with it.

As Newt put it so eloquently recently: "It is only from the perspective of the cultural elite that the left-wing governing of the Obama-Pelosi-Reid team could be seen as moderate." Yup, he's got that exactly right.

Hey, Paul if Mike Gallagher's radio show is an indicator, Romney's religion remains an issue. I don't care; I'm a lot more concerned about him backpedaling on the Massachusetts health care that he signed into law!

Ron--I agree with your thoughts except that it makes me nervous that the Democrats don't answer so many of the lies, distortions, etc. Maybe you are right that people don't engage til mid-October but it troubles me that the TV and radio ads go unanswered for so long. I will never forget the swift-boating of John Kerry.

Cult, I agree with your entire list. As far as what can be done with our system.......

We need to remove the parties from the system all together. With technology as it stand the political parties are just as obsolete as the Electorial College. In this day and age you have to almost fight to remain uninformed.

If we were to place a cap on campaign spending. One that was smallest at the more local elections and got progressively larger as you reached the Presidential elections I think that would be fair.

We could let the people vote on which candidate they felt represented them the best/most instead of the Red Team or Blue Team.

I honestly feel politician are better in office when they don't have to pretend to be for or against something in order to save themselves from being labeled too Red or too Blue. What do you think?

Ron,

Did you know Kennedy and Johnson weren't in the GOP?

Cult;

You are asking some very good questions. These are many of the same we are also trying to figure out as well. In the past I have voted both Republican and Democrat but now I am a Democrat mostly Progesive with Liberal leanings. I do still vote either way in local elections though. I live in a state that everybody is registered as Independent (Vermont) so we can pick and choose who we feel is the best candidate.

We are in a very unique period of time where 80% of ALL Americans are feed up with the crap from both sides. It is goiing to take some very hard changes to pull ourselves out of this mess anytime soon. Both parties are going to have to work together on this or we are not going to have much of a country to pull out.

Now, that is one reason why forums like this are supposed to exist. To share ideas, evaluate those ideas and pick the ones that are the best for America. No one party can do this. Will never happen.

Doing nothing at this point is really not an option. We all know how that works. Now is the time for ideas and lots of them.

I look forward to speaking with you later. I have to get off this soon and go make some money to pay my DSL Bill.

Bill, that is one hell of a fast forward and you know it.

The President would not be doing all this if he didn't believe it to be necessary. How do I come to this conclusion you ask? Politicians want to be liked and re-elected. The things he has done has done nothing to help either of those causes. Not with You "the conservative"; Feisty "the progressive"; or Me "the independent".

What other reason would he have to do all this? Please spare me the he wants our nation, to include him and his family, to fail talk.

Feisty I hope you didn't mind me using your name in my example, no disrespect intended.

Tom:

First of all I don't you nor do you know me.

I work in the middle of Texas. I have never claimed to be in the middle of the political spectrum. I have an opinion and it is mine and very seldom swayed differently. This is an ideology I do not take lightly and if me being black and republican rubs you the wrong way so be it. I know that is the problem you have with me. You Liberals believe every minority in this country should be Liberal.

Insightful post, Ron. And great First Thoughts this morning, First Read moderators.

I think the Jet Blue analogy is apt. How many times is the general public going to let itself be knocked around and called MF'ers (in deeds, not words) by politicians who don't care about their constituents?

According to EDU in Review, states that rank the lowest for high school graduation rates are all in the South. The high school graduation rate in the South is 72%, virtually the same as it was in 1991. These are all red states that overwhelmingly vote Republican.

Education opens one's mind to ideas and possibilities. Ignorance leads one to be fearful of change and to cling to the familiar. That may be one reason why many of our conservative friends don't seem to be offering any us fresh new ideas.

A question for InTheMiddle, TX...if, as you say, liberals on First Read think they "know the Republican party so well" and you say they don't, please tell us what being a Republican means to you. As a black man, a retired soldier, living in the South - what has the Republican party brought to your life that has won your allegiance?

You people are funny. I find it fascinating that a bunch obvious liberals sit around patting each other on the back for their oh-so intellectual assessment of where the Republican party went wrong; meanwhile, all the projections show that the Democratic party is going to have their butts handed to them in November. I find it pathetic, that you are all so consumed by your own hatred and bigotry, that you feel genuinely justified in your fallacious accusations of racism at a group that promotes nothing besides the idea of a small, limited government that does not spend money that it does not have. One of the few rights that the constitution specifically grants the Federal government is the ability to establish a military and protect our country; and yet everytime somebody says cut the spending your crowd always throws out 'well Bush made us pay for two wars'. If you don't like the fact that we went to war with a genocidal tyrant in Iraq and that in doing so we also protected our assets, fine, we can agree to disagree there. However, we were attacked on September 11, 2001 and that is why we went and attacked the country that was providing asylum for the muslim terrorists that orchestrated the tragedy. This war is justified, get over it. The Democratic party, the party of the KKK, has done more to divide this country in the last two years than any time since the civil war. Waterloo? Please, there are going to be a lot of Democratic congressmen in the unemployment lines come November.

Cult of Personality said:

This also begs another question. How can we fix the current system?

We need to get the corporate money and lobbyists out of elections. Campaigns should be publicly funded, by ALL taxpayers, so we all get a chance to get the candidate we want, instead of who Washington picks for us, or party leaders. I'm actually a Democrat by default, because the Republicans left me a few decades ago, but Democrats in Congress are bought and paid for just like Republicans are. And it needs to stop.

We also need to have "top two" voting, where there are no primaries, but you pick your first and second choice candidates. This way, whoever the top two are, if one does not receive 50% of the vote, the "second choice" kicks in and picks the winner from those votes. This has a wonderful side benefit of electing more moderate candidates that agree with what more Americans believe, rather than the extremes on the left or right during party primaries.

All that said, that's going to make it VERY hard to overhaul the system, because the powers in place don't want it changed to something that gives the people more power. So it will be a tough road - but if everyone gets together on this - particularly the middle, it can be done.

InTheMiddle, thank you for clearing up the locations thing. I thought you were speaking on your political leanings.

How is it that in the same post you can say you don't know me and then call me a Liberal?

I have no problem with you or anyone being what they are, but I have noticed you tend to throw those facts out about yourself when you feel threatened and do not have facts to back up your positions. So, I just wanted to let you know you are not the only Black, former military member with conservative values.

I apologize if my preemtive strike offended you, I may have gone too far.

Ah, the appearance of the mythical Left-wing "elitist". Somehow we've been convinced that the Bush family, with political roots deep as an Oak tree and generations of Yale education aren't the elite. Newt Gingrich, millionaire and former college professor isn't an elitist. Those who speak to a government of, by, and for the wealthy aren't elitists. No, instead the real elitist is a man of minority descent, raised by his own hard work from a childhood of welfare to become a constitutional law professor and President of the United States. Wealthy people like Grover Norquist and advocates for the wealthy like the Club for Growth http://irregulartimes.com/howlingelephant.html , instrumental in funnelling more and more wealth to the already wealthy aren't elitist. Wealthy people who try to even the playing field so regular folks have a shot are the REAL elitists.

I long for the days when we used words as they were defined instead of turning them into blunt instruments valued only for their emotional power. http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/04/the_empty_rhetoric_of_elitism.php

Good Morning Steeler fan:

I'm not suggesting that the Dems wait until October. Adds will be coming soon enought.

I reminded by a friend who said that McCain will win in November because there hasn't been a peep from the Democrats. I had to remind him that in AZ they haven't had their primaries yet. Wait until you know who the target is before you start firing. McCain will lose in November!

Feisty I hope you didn't mind me using your name in my example, no disrespect intended

Anytime Tom! It was an 'honor' ;0)

Bill from Fairfax:

Fast forward to the next Democratic President, a fellow named Obama. Well by golly, it sure would be hard to make the case that this man has taken a moderate approach to governance. To the contrary, he came into office with an extreme leftist vision for fundamentally transforming the country and he has done what he could to implement that vision. He hasn't gotten everything that he wanted, but he's gotten enough to build on going forward, as he constantly reminds us. And he has done so despite the overwhelming opposition of the public to many of his policies, such as HCR. This man and his Democratic partners in Congress have done more to polarize the country than any other politician in my lifetime. And what's happened to the moderate Democrats? They've been shaken down Chicago style in the President's quest for votes to implement his leftist agenda.

That's so weird. You used a lot of words to say absolutely nothing except far right wing talking points. You didn't actually say WHAT was "leftist" or "far left" about Obama. The only thing you did mention was Health Care Reform - and if you actually look at it, the ENTIRE THING is based on the PRIVATE SECTOR. Lefties didn't get a public option, they didn't get even get a government run option. It's ALL private companies that benefit from it.

So please, Bill, in your oh-so-not-so-infinite wisdom, why don't you dispense with the talking points you hear from Fox and Rush, and explain something that actually is NOT moderate about Obama? What "leftist vistion" has he implemented? Who exactly has been "shaken down Chicago style"? What has he done to be "more polarizing than any politician in [your] lifetime"? Facts, links and figures would be greatly appreciated, but I won't hold my breath.

Jose I think you're right on target in terms of campaign funding. The concept that money is speech is the worst decision handed down by the Supreme Court in decades. It's corrosive to everyone who touches it, and anti-democratic (with a small 'd') on the most basic level. It replaces "one man, one vote" with "one dollar, one vote." Well, I don't have as many "votes" as Citigroup, so financial system reform was compromised. I don't have as many "votes" as Aetna, so health care reform was compromised. I don't have as many "votes" as the defense contractors, so we spend as much on Defense as the rest of the world put together. It's a system that only works for moneyed interests.

Ron - last weekend I went to a "garden" party at my mother-laws home. Everyone wanted to talk politics. Now this group of people are in the majority of the top 2% in income. Frankly I was extremely surprised at what they were saying - it is basically exactly what your post was about. They feel rudderless without competent leadership within the Republican party. They want the Republicans to work with the Obama administration to get things done for all Americans and are appalled at "NO".

Frankly I was shocked and pleased to hear these comments after reading the comments from the extreme right on FR. So I have hope that the posters on FR are not a majority.

And once again would like to point out that about a 1000 people were polled and does that really represent all Americans?

Gail;

Normaly I don't answer these type of questions. I am with the Republican party because iwas military for 22 yrs and throughout my entire career all of the benefits and RAISES came from Republican POTUS. The things that went on in the general public did not concern me. I was in from Regan's second term all the way through Bush 43. My father was a diehard Democrat for most of his life and changed after Clinton. He realized that in all of those years the Democrat party was just taking the black vote for granted. This is the way I see it also. I go to Democrat districts in my state and I see not a damn thing has changed in 30 yrs but yet they keep voting the same people in year after year.

I live in a Republican district (I go home from Ft Hood on the weekends to the Houston area), Tom DeLay's old district. This place has come from little country towns to booming economic mini cities in a span of less than 20 yrs. This is what I vote for because it benefits ME and my family. I can go 3 miles and be smack dab in Sheila Jackson-Lee's district and Al Green's and it looks exactly as it looked when I lived here 25 yrs ago. Same families on welfare generation after generation.

I am also co-owner of our family business. We are some of the people that generate over 250,000 that will be jammed with the tax increase. Everything we generate is reported as personal income....I bet you didn't know that, but after payroll, investment into the biz, etc. that profit margin drops considerable but yet you are still obligated to that gross. You know what this means. Some employees will be let go to make up for the tax loss. That is just a fact.

I vote Republican because they are less of both evils and the party is best for ME. Yes I know there are no black Republicans in Congress. The reason is because Deocrats demonize black Republicans so bad, who in the hell would want to run as a black Republican?

Ron and Fellow travelers:

Actually, today's Republican Party has not moved all that far from its roots. It is the direct descendant of the Whigs, Puritans. Know-nothings, etc. Over the years, it occasionally opens its tent to the extremists, when extinction is just around the corner.

Those extremists are what most of us consider moderates. Those are the folks who truly understand that choice includes all issues, not just abortion. They are the folks who truly understand fiscal conservatism. They value education - sort of like liberal folk. They simply are not that far from the center, but today's G.O.P. demands a slavish devotion to dogma. That's just not going to happen for a moderate, who really is part of that amorphous group the media label "independents".

With the election of George W. Bush, the G.O.P. took control of all three branches of government, and Republican moderates were left homeless. A true fiscal conservative could not look at the budgets that came down the pike in those years without questioning the sanity of the G.O.P. They had to have been apoplectic when Count Dickula Cheney told them that deficits didn't matter. They couldn't have been happy to learn that the invasion of Iraq was based on a foundation of lies. Moderates do not swallow dogma food.

Indeed, moderates of the right had nowhere to go. The moderates of the left were quite pleased with Obama. Regardless of what the "leaders" of the G.O.P. spew, Obama is hardly a left-wing ideologue. The proof is in the pudding. It was the moderates of the right who put Obama over the top.

Don't think for one minute Gibbs didn't know what he was saying. The Democratic leadership has not forgotten the progressive left, but the leaders know the left cannot vote for Republicans. The basic question is whether unhappy Dems will turn out to vote and whether right-center moderates will hit the polls.

The Republicans unequivocally do NOT promise leadership. Indeed, they are mere pawns of Big Money. They go where they are told. For all its warts, its indecision, and certainly its lack of raw guts, there is no where to go but the Democratic Party.

ITM you have the typical Repub mindset! ME, ME, ME! No thought about the Country (not withstanding your military service) or the greater good!

I suppose you also think Delay was just great!

ITM,

Thank you SO MUCH for your reply. I respect you sharing your experience with me, and all of us, and I respect your choice. I sure wish you were a Democrat, though, or that you were open to considering Democratic ideas.

It sounds like with your business you have a wide circle of influence in your community. My hope is that you use your influence to further the best ideas of conservatism, and not fall into the trap of those who would hijack the Republican party.

And as for there being no black Republicans in Congress...you could be the person to change that. Think about it.

Air assault!

Ron, you are most presumptive about what people, not even of your party, are "embarrassed" about or what they like/dislike. I'm a registered Democrat because I have to choose a party to be eligible to vote in primaries. I'll tell you what i am embarrassed of and utterly frightened about and that's this ridiculous spending spree. To think we have other nations laughing at us and cautioning us to get it under control is embarrassing!

Chiming in late here....

I used to be a Republican too, in the 1980's. But the farther afield they wandered from social justice and toward the supremacy of the corporation, the more disillusioned I became and I rejoined the Party of my ancestors--the Democrats.

I am in no way convinced that corporations can't be good citizens and look after the needs of their employees and communities. But to grant them the status they currently have in our society is over the top and they are taking full advantage of it.

ummm... Gail, you want to talk about a party being hijacked, your party is no longer the party of JFK; it was hijacked by a bunch left-wing radical extremists who now occupy the high positions within all three branches of government. They're so committed to the idea that they know what's best for us, that even when a vast majority of people stand up and yell "NNNOOOO!!!" they shrug it off and refer to us as interest groups or evil lobbyists. I've never been involved in politics, I voted but rarely paid attention. Unfortunately, it took the election of these loons to wake me up to what is happening to my country.

The Republican Party now marches to the tune called by the Tea Party, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, etc. There is no room left there for moderate conservatives. The GOP has been completely taken over by far right "slash and burn" conservative zealots. As Sinclair Lewis said: "When facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

This ex-Republican now Libertarian refuse to hold his nose and vote. If no candidates meet my standards, I'll vote for myself! And to Ginger. Republicans were NEVER about social justice. That whole concept is an abomination.

I will believe there is discontent with the Republican and Democrat parties

when I see people voting for other parties. Every ballot I have seen in my

life had other choices.

If you want to see positive change, vote Libertarian. Otherwise, enjoy your

front row seats to watch your country die!

since i lost my job i will not vote for dems and probably not for repubs either there is a lot of us and the party that can get us back to work is the one I want!!!!!!!!

It's been a LONG time since I've heard a Republican say something that was rational; thanks. One conservative commented that you agree with us 90%; further from the truth. While we may agree very little at least it's a conversation on the facts.

Unfortunately reading replies from your conservative cousins show how deeply disturbed Republicans are. I chuckle at their referring to Liberals as elitists because we have brains and think logically. They blame Obama for everything but would never consider blaming themselves for something like filibustering SBA loan legislation. They would read the facts about Republicans obstructing attempts to turn the economy around and just blame it on a biased media !

Ron, this is great and timely post....voted. I just returned from having lunch with a friend of many years, she is or has been a registered Republican, she just switch party and is now a registered Democrat. I asked her why the change as she has always been a Republican, she is so sickened by what has happened to the GOP, the Tea Party movement and what they espouse, how they are the party of NO. She sees her country being ruined and they not doing anything to help.

She voted for President Obama and now cannot believe her party will not work with him. How many more are there who feel this way? In my opinion, the moderates have been abandoned by their party and the extremist wing has taken over, that will never work in the long run, extremes in anyway never succeed.

Jose Von Hussein said: "...explain something that actually is NOT moderate about Obama? What "leftist vistion" has he implemented? Who exactly has been "shaken down Chicago style"? What has he done to be "more polarizing than any politician in [your] lifetime"?"

Hmm, you seem to be one of the folks Newt was referring to. The leftist vision of this administration is clear to anyone who chooses to open their eyes: move the country in a direction that expands the size, power and function of the federal government and thereby put us firmly on the road towards becoming a European style social welfare state. What are the leftist policies that would support implementation of that vision? Try HCR and financial regulation (which are now law), and cap and trade and card check (which thankfully are not law). To name a few.

And here's a corollary to the leftist vision: pay for the programs with other people's money, and if necessary lowball the cost estimates to make them appear palatable. The advertised price tag of HCR was about $1 trillion over ten years. Subsequent to passage of HCR, CBO has estimated it could cost an additional $115B and Medicare's Office of the Actuary estimated additional costs of $300B. Then there was the $200B Medicare doc fix that was conveniently not included in HCR since it would have exposed the fraudulent cost estimate. Add all that up and you get cost growth of 60%, a number that would even make the Pentagon blush. All of this is a matter of public record, so I invite you to go find your own damn links.

Here's another corollary to the leftist vision: Let government decide what's good for the people, don't let the people decide what's good for themselves. Going back to the early stages of the HCR debate and continuing through today, almost every poll has shown overwhelming opposition to HCR. Despite that, the Obama administration rammed this thing through in brazen disregard to that opposition, using whatever pressure (Chicago style and otherwise) they could bring to bear to get the votes of recalcitrant lawmakers. Lawmakers like Bart Stupak. You might recall that good old Bart was in the catbird's seat at a crucial point in the process and had the Obama team by the b*lls. So, maybe you can explain to me how Bart suddenly saw the light of day and decided to cave? Inquiring minds want to know.

But there's more. You said: "The only thing you did mention was Health Care Reform - and if you actually look at it, the ENTIRE THING is based on the PRIVATE SECTOR. Lefties didn't get a public option, they didn't get even get a government run option. It's ALL private companies that benefit from it."

The disingenuousness of the left is astonishing to behold, truly it is. As I clearly stated in my post, Obama didn't get everything he wanted. But he didn't get a public option or a complete government takeover of health care not because he and his leftist ideologue buds didn't want it, but because they knew they couldn't get it through the Senate. Furthermore, Obama has repeatedly stated that HCR as passed is just the first step of health care reform, a starting point to build on going forward. And building on the HCR that passed will almost certainly including revisiting the public option. For example, suppose that the Democrats actually increase their seats in Congress in November rather than lose a ton. In that imaginary world, do you seriously doubt that the public option would not be reconsidered?

And more disingenuousness on this bull about HCR being built on the private sector. Are you talking about the same private sector that will be so heavily regulated it will effectively be just an extension of the government? An informed lefty like you is surely aware that HHS, Labor and IRS are currently in the midst of writing the detailed regulations necessary to implement HCR. Regulations that are so detailed that if an employer increases the cost of insurance to his employees by as little as $5, the health plan offered by that employer might not pass muster with the regulators. This is also a matter of public record, and you can go find your own damn link for this one too.

Finally, let's talk about the issue of Obama's polarizing effect on the country. Did you miss the town halls from last summer? Did you ignore all the polls showing overwhelming opposition to HCR? Have you heard about the rise of the Tea Party movement? Get a grip pal, the leftist Obama agenda (with HCR being the lightening rod issue) is at the core of all of that. I've been around for a while and the only president in my lifetime that comes anywhere close to being as polarizing as Obama was LBJ who pursued the Vietnam war in the face of widespread public opposition. The memory of the way LBJ ripped this country apart still burns brightly in many of us. But for my money Obama is even more divisive because he's trying to take the country down a ruinous leftist path that is inconsistent with our dominant center-right political orientation. And for that reason, he will continue to meet fierce resistance so long as he insists on doing so.

Kirk -

Ha! You may chuckle at the idea of liberal elitists but the idea of a liberal thinking logically is freakin hillarious. Yeah, let's shut down half the farm land in California to save the delta smelt; that's logical. Or hey, there's a leak in the gulf, let's decimate the economies of all bordering states to pacify the environmental whackos; that's logical. Or hey, let's dismantle the most innovative healthcare system in the world because 10% of the population doesn't have coverage; that too is logical. Ya know what, we should continue to pay unemployment benefits in perpetuity to all those working, regardless of how long they have been employed because we're just big meanies if we don't; besides, we can just take from those who do work. The fact is, the liberal ideology is one based on emotion, not reason and logic. By the way, when we conservatives talk about elitists, we talk about those that have crap load of money, are in positions of power and believe that we are better served if they are making our decisions for us. Why are all the billionaires liberal? I'm just curious: Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, George Soros, Oprah, Jay Rockefellar(?), etc... I'm all for them earning as much money as they can; I support that, however I do not want these people telling me how to live my life.

Still waiting for specifics Bill and not vague insinuations based on nothing but fear. I see a lot of blah blah blah in your post but little in the fact department. We aren't allowing the government to decide what is best for us but merely allowing the government to regulate the abuses of the corporations that have been aimed at the lower and middle classes.

Fewer rhetorical questions in your posts would make them an easier read as well.

Middle of Texas if you have a business why do you report all you income as personal? First of all you get you can not claim as many deductions and if you are sued they can come after you personally. Also dont understand your argument that you vote Republican because Clintond abused the black vote. I here everything about the argument about having to buy healthcare but your in Texas you have to buy car insurance how is it different?

Beau-

Because you do not have to drive a car. What a tired argument.

JQ

That is got to be the most ignorant rebutal I have heard on here yet. I have a car sir in Houston if you dont have a car you can not get around. Also how would I know you have to buy car insurance in Texas if I didnt have a car. Oh almost forgot do you have a car?

Ignorant?

Well no kidding! If you do not not have your car, will you die? I'll answer that; no, probably not. It would be inconvenient as hell but you will not die. People have lived for thousands of years without cars and while that had to suck for them, they still managed not to die from a lack of cars. So, you do not have to buy a car; nobody is forcing you to go out and purchase a vehicle. If you do not choose to purchase a vehicle (which I do not recommend but to each their own), you do not have to purchase auto insurance. Tons of options. With this healthcare bill, what they have done is require everybody in the country to purchase healthcare insurance, the only exception being of course, the dead. So, unlike car insurance, when it comes to healthcare insurance you have only two legal courses you can follow, either purchase some or you should be able to avoid any type prosecution if you go ahead and die. Otherwise, unless the Supreme Court throws out the individual mandate, you can be subject to fines and jail time. There's a huge freakin difference.

And yes, I live drive and work in DFW

So JQ, you're upset with the mandate to purchase that was insisted upon by Republican Chuck Grassley in the kabuki act that masqueraded for bipartisan negotiation?

As a Liberal I get that. Allowing those without other means of purchasing insurance to buy into Medicaid would have been much better. Republicans wouldn't have it, they insisted that insurance be purchased through private companies and that their be a mandate to buy.

First of all sir with my business and kids I have to own a car. Second of all in the state of Texas it is mandatory to have liability insurance on you car. I do not understand your problem with everyone having health insurance. The only thing that everyone can say is that I dont want to have to have health insurance. If you do not want some kind of health insurance you will probably end up dieing at an early age at some point. Also if everyone has healthcare people will use it instead of waiting till they are on there deathbed. With that being said it will lower cost of medicaid for the government and lower the amount of people on disability by having a healthy America. They are mandating healthcare so the people that doctors get paid and hospitals can keep there doors open. If you dont have insurance and you get sick you and dont pay which is very common you end up being a drain on society.

John B,

No, you misunderstand, I'm upset about the whole damn bill. On the contrary, I'm actually quite happy that the mandate is in the bill; aside from congress and a new president repealing the bill in 2013, the mandate is the best shot we have of getting the entire piece of legislation scrapped through the supreme court. I was just arguing with Beau, my fellow Texan, about how requiring auto insurance to drive in Texas is not tantamount to requiring health insurance to live in the US. I was simply trying to find a creative way to articulate that the only alternative to living is dying, whereas there are many alternatives to driving.

Beau:

What are you talking about in reference to insurance? I never said Clinton took advantage of the black vote. I said Democrats take the black vote for granted. They always have because they know it is going to be there come hell or high water.

As for as taxes go, my name is the first signature on the franchise due to I'm the oldest son. My accountant has explained this many times and believe me I do take every deduction possible. You are taxed upon the gross income to which mean biz checks are added to my personal income.

You think this tax hike is not going to hurt small biz. There is a big difference between someone making 250,000 and 3 billion but we are all considered in the same boat.

Ok I found that if I pay myself as and employee that I dont pay as much in taxes. Thats what my accountant said so who knows. The tax laws are so F##### up.

Well what I have witnessed in elections is that the Republicans come to Texas to raise money and then you never see them again. As for the Dems they dont even try to campain here so its not like we get much attention.

Jody

Very well said. Hateful dialogue has no place in a debate. As our President has said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable".

Jody, you seem to have a problem with the First Amendment freedom of speech provisions. Maybe you should propose a change that reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting... abridging the freedom of speech, as long as it agrees with my lefty liberal point of view.

BTW, when people take "mean-spirited" shots at conservative posters, I haven't seen you criticizing them for "promoting the degradation of civil discussion".

Maybe you will start today??

Thank you Jody! ;0)

Some of the stuff under the Dan Rostenkowski thread yesterday went beyond despicable and yet remained even though they were flagged by MANY!

Wonder why that is.... Mark/Domenico care to address this?

What I once considered THEE best political blog on the web is rapidly deteriorating into nothing but a hateful freakin free for all!

There are many 'newbies' here who have ZERO interest in a debate and are only looking for an argument or to rabble rouse!

Our moderators really need to address this BEFORE they lose a lot of the LONG time contributors!

Ron ~

As our President has said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable".

No we can't. Or wait ... we just did. ;)

Joe, where in my comment did I single out either side? Ahhh, I didn't. I said both parties write good posts and both sides need to keep it civil in order to have a honest debate and not a food fight. I exercised my right to free speech as did you but you countered with an argument that was not in my comment--I did not single out the right, I spoke of both sides.

".......Congress shall make no law respecting... abridging the freedom of speech, as long as it agrees with my lefty liberal point of view..."

Yes, Jody- I read your post, and I see what you mean.

Jody, Iowa

Didn't you take me to task not so long ago for the same sentiments? This is a nasty little place, where it isn't just the opinion that gets skewered, but the person making it. The main culprits for the "culture" are the regulars who condone or ignore the behaviors of the worst members of their own group. Ron informed me on day 1 here, that "eric may go a little over the top sometimes..." but that this was the culture here and he was a valued member of the "community"

Seldom will a "regular" step in to moderate. They are more likely to be one of the 4 to 10 who pile on every opinion that runs counter to the cultural orthodoxy, or is expressed by an avowed "conservative".

As you didn't seem to be overly concerned about the lack of civil discourse such a short time ago, I am wondering what epiphany or change of circumstances has prompted this lament? Did things suddenly get even worse over the past few days?

There is no moderation here because as an orthodoxy this group condones and encourages the disparagement of any heretical thoughts or opinions.

Jody.... as true as your words may be the truth is this:

Its all protected under the Constitution. Freedom of Speech must be protected NO MATTER the content. We must protect the rights of the most vulgar comments to ensure that ALL have the right to speak FREELY.

Once you start censoring peoples comments just because they are hurtful or ugly you open up a pandora's box that you cant close.

Freedom of Speech does not just cover nice happy thought or thoughts that you (or I for that matter) agree with. It covers everything with very few exceptions (just as you mentioned --shouting "FIRE" in a crowded room just to get a reaction).

I agree that people (myself included at times) should use restraint in what they say..... but everyone is allowed to their RIGHT to speak however they wish to. No matter the content.

"What I once considered THEE best political blog on the web is rapidly deteriorating into nothing but a hateful freakin free for all! "

Gee, Nasty Redhead, some of your classic nastygram posts wouldn't be part of the problem, would they??

Jody:

100% right on. These people continue to spout their talking points, think Glenn and Rush are the new Republican Party, use inappropriate language, offer no ideas just personal attacks and then hide behind the First Amendment. They continue to not take any responsibility for their actions and worse see nothing wrong with they did to put this country a breath away from Bankruptcy.

They confuse legal / illegal as the same as right or wrong. They are a lot of things that are wrong both morally and ethically that may not be illegal. The new republicans just do not know how to make that distinction.

Just ignore them. They do not bring any intelligent conversation to the party, they offer no ideas, have not a clue as to what middle America (98% of the people) are about, they just call people names and think that is intelligent conversation. The copy and paste talking points and think those are ideas (new or old), etc.

Great post Jody:

Jody, I'm looking forward to your posts condemning each poster that takes a shot at me in an effort to promote "the degradation of civil discussion".

I agree Jody. I usually just swing through these blogs to get a sense of the logical debates taking place between the different ideologies. I really don't like to engage with petty partisan attacks but when I see outright lies or half truths being repeated day in and day out I can't help but call them out. I have found that just asking for a source or clarification gets you nothing in return. I will try harder to ignore the nonsense and just let stupid statements speak for themselves.

Yesterday's posts were ridiculous.

Happy posting!

Feisty and Jody,

I hear you. I wonder if the monitors (if there are any) have seen how his forum has been degraded by the hate, racist comments and personal attacks.

Yes I believe in freedom of Speech and the First Amendment. What I do not believe in is using it as a shield to dispense hate, racism, lies, and anything else people try to hide. That is not Free Speech in my book. It is just what it is. Racism, Hate, Bigotry, Lying allowed to fester and grow because we originally felt that the Right of Free Speech would imply some sense of responsibility.

Jody,

If that is the case, then why do you continue to berate Republicans? You say some nasty sh!t too. you are no better than anyone else in here but yet this is how you Liberals do; someone steps to you and then you go crying for moderation.

When you and your ilk were disrespecting Bush it was a celebration but now the shoe is on the other foot. I said it years ago all of that vitriol towards Bush was gong to come back to bite Liberals in the azz.

Fantastic post, Jody!! You are bang on the mark and I see the trashing has already begun!

"I hear you. I wonder if the monitors (if there are any) have seen how his forum has been degraded by the hate, racist comments and personal attacks."

I agree. FR was a much better place when it was just a lefty liberal echo chamber/mutual admiration club. These morons that express other points of view MUST be stopped.

US.... you and I were both in the military. We fought for the freedoms of this once great nation right?

Does that mean that the only freedoms you fought for are ones you agree with? If so that isnt democracy or a republic.... it definetly isnt what the Constitution guarentees.

Nowhere in the constitution does it say that only positive or popular speech is protected. It states that ALL speech is protected.

Like I said to Jody if we as a society start censoring certain speech because its not "nice" or "popular" we will be heading down a slippery slope that we wont be able to get away from.

If you want to live somewhere where certain speech is censored move to China and let us know how that feels after a couple months.

All you have to do Ginger... is sit back and watch them make the point! lol

They just can't help themselves!

US Navy:

You have the audacity to chide someone for degrading comments. Man I have never seen one comment from you digging in a fellow Liberals azz. Everything you post is a knock against Republicans.

When you start respecting Republicans and start jumping Fiesty, Eric, newday, Mo, Beverly, Dan, etc....then maybe people will start having a decent conversation.

Jody, your comments make sense. But where in your comments did you say that things should be censored? I did not see anything about challenging first amendment rights!! To discuss things with civility requires self discipline of the person making the comment. Self discipline of what one says or writes is not censorship. using the tenents of self control, self editing is not censorship.

I was always taught that if you could not say something nice, just don't say anything at all. Is that a bad concept to live life by? Using civility is a bad idea? What is happening to polite discussion?

I see the Libs are begging for mercy. They're coming realize their beliefs, their points of view, and their heros are nothing more then lies and frauds. And now their pleading: "Oh please nasty old conservatives, please don't be mean to us". This after all the crap they have spewing. Too bad Libs, time to man-up and quit whining.

And it's nice to see that the Left is waking up to the reality of America. People unemployed, houses being foreclosed on, markets tanking, and no end to it in sight. Can't keep blaming others for the problems you created Libs. And now, yesterday, the Democrats passed a $26 billion bill to pay off the unions, and they got the money from the Food Stamps program! Just think if a Republican president/congress had did that! The media would have went nuts, there would be marches on the Capital and the White House. The screaming from the left would be deafening. Instead, silence.

So lick your wounds today Libs. You'll be getting more. A lot more.

Navy,

Racism?? Come on-Please........I've seen more race baiting from the Liberals than anywhere else. I've said this before, if people continue to use the race card, it's going to bite them. Navy you basically wrote, if you don't like it according to Navy it should be censored. Doesn't work that way.

Jody, Thanks for starting this thread! I love this topic because it is one that does not have a right and left answer. I never thought I'd see that day that I voted for one of Larry's comments!

Most of the regular commentors on FR at the very least call each other names and it often gets a little nasty. It adds color to the discussion and makes it more fun to read.

Where it crosses a line is when people wish death upon our leaders or celebrate their deaths; however, I do not believe these comments should be deleted.

I think it our responsibility to call out those with our own political leanings when they cross a line.

So lick your wounds today Libs. You'll be getting more. A lot more.

Isn't it remarkable that no matter what the topic it always comes back to JoAnna? lol

No one is licking their wounds (that's for sure)!

What we're referring to is some of these newbies who come here under the cover of anonymity and say things like the recently deceased Rep Rostenkowski should have been hung by his neck until he sh!t his pants!

Now if that's an acceptable comment by your standards... well... you have more problems than I previously thought!

So sorry JoAnna contrary to your own beliefs... the world does NOT revolve around you!

As for you not so idle threat babe... now that's funny coming from the self-proclaimed one woman FR wrecking crew! ;0))))

Great post, Jody. Sorry if the detractors can't see that you are asking for civility from both sides, not trying to interfere with anyone's freedom of speech. I think the best thing to do is ignore them and hope that they will go elsewhere.

I don't understand the technology, but it seems to me that the deterioration stepped up when the format changed over the summer. Comments are posted faster but the quality isn't the same.

As usual JoannaSmith you give yourself far too much credit. You also still lack the skills to make a point. Keep posting though apparently some people like the color you paint the discussions. From yellow to brown I will still flush you down.

Inthemiddle,

I do have respect for thoughtful analysis on relevant topics but I refuse to give respect to those that try to blame one politician or one party for the condition our country is in. The idea is absurd and very naive. I merely comment on the poster and refuse to attack an entire group. (repubs, teaparty, ect)I have tons of friends that are republicans that can talk policy without Obama bashing. Agree to disagree. They also don't believe that a particular party can destroy this country but that a country's citizens are the ultimate factor in a country's success or failure.

Some people's opinions do not deserve respect. That isn't partisan just the truth.

Umm Jody, and you're just coming to this conclusion now? Heck, it's been that way ever since I've been coming here, with most of the invective directed at anyone who doesn't sing from the leftist hymnal.

I have no respect for racist, hateful and out right lying rhetoric. Like it or not Free Speech does imply some level of responsibility. Hiding behind it not to disagree about ideas, but to say racist statements, Hateful statements etc, I believe is not what our founding fathers had in mind.

I fought for the first amendment with honor in the Navy as did my father (Navy), his father (Army) and now my daughter (Navy). I did not fight for racism, hate, bigotry, religious intolerance, segregation of people into groups, etc. That is the very thing we were fighting against.

To hide this behind the first amendent and think it is just disagreement of ideas or intelligent discourse is repugnant to me.

I have no problem with people that disagree on ideas or policy. But I do have contempt for the above.

Attack me all you want, you only keep proving the point.

I've read Jody's post a couple of times now and nowhere do I see her calling for censorship or mandatory deleting of any posts - she's only asking for more civility. What on earth is so impossible about that?

Dangerfield - On the "both sides" issues - I'll take that one, if I may. If we must use labels, I'm a liberal. But I ended up on the receiving end of one of Eric, Salinas's highly insulting tirades myself a couple of weeks ago - calling me, among other things, a "birther bimbo" who "never finished high school" because he didn't take the time to read what I was actually saying. And you're right, only one or two people on here took him to task over it. Interestingly enough - and this isn't the first time this has happened here - someone merely said that he must have had me confused with JoAnna Smith, as if his language would be more acceptable had it been directed at her. Well, sorry, gang, but I disagree - JoAnne or JoAnna, it was uncalled for. Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for an apology from Eric.

Because, as another poster told me yesterday when I asked him to please tone down his comments about wanting the entire Cheney family to die in a horrible plane crash - we have the right to free speech. We certainly do. I just don't know when "free" turned into "cheap".

Jody - I could be wrong, but I think it was you who once said about people doing the right thing that you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't. So you might as well". Glad you did this morning.

Thank You Jody, great Post, many here need to learn how to have a real discourse instead of just ranting all the time. Case in point, Joe has not once, above, talked about the actual content of this thread, just ranting and putting down/insulting others, it is almost like he does not have any real thoughts and has to take others down for his own ego.

The problems that we are seeing, the division and hate portrayed by the MSM between the political parties only serves the advertising base that they sell to, it actively hurts the rest of us who are trying to get America back together so that we can move forward instead of repeating the errors of the past. Sadly, most of the media is strongly right wing since those are the people with the money that the MSM caters to.

The only good point is that the louder the right screams their lies and hate filled vitriol, the more the actual moderates are turned off by them: the middle is NOT going to vote for the extreme right, which is just about all that is left of the once proud Repub Party. The Tea Baggers have hastened things towards that end with their total lack of respect for anybody that is not as extreme right as themselves and have hijacked what is left of the Repub party onto a crash course with destiny.

The Reason that President Obama and the Dems are polling higher right now is because MOST of America sees them as the ONLY ones that actually have ideas and are working to do things other than the tried-and-failed policies of cutting taxes for the rich big businesses and deregulation. We have SEEN how that works out and the last two election cycles show just how tired of being conned the American public really is: we voted the Repubs out and voted moderate, mainstream Dems in, including the President. Moderate Repubs were left sitting on the curb by their party and so far the Repubs have not given them any reason whatsoever to go back. Right now the Dem Party covers the entire old political spectrum, from liberal to conservative, and are working to right the wrongs that got us to where we are today. The Repubs and Tea Baggers have crawled farther and farther out on the branch of extremism and have shown NO ideas other than the tried-and-failed ones that got us into this mess to begin with and absolutely refuse to work with the Dems unless it is to sabotage any bill that MIGHT help Americans get back to solid footing or block them entirely.

America is watching closer than most realize, and the more lies, smear and fear, hate and division that come from the Tea Party and the right, the fewer voters are going to vote for them, plain and simple that!

"You Lie", Bill. Many many times, as Buzz, I used to cut-and-paste, then post, the many invective-loades posts from righties. There were one hell of a lot, if Iremember correctly.

Navy,

Excuse me? I'm attacking you? LOL, No. No where in my post I was attacking you. psssssssssssss.........Navy, I also served 20 years to defend the right to free speech. Show me where YOU think I should be "Censored according to Navy?

"hide this behind the first amendent and think it is just disagreement of ideas or intelligent discourse is repugnant to me."

Drive-By... and who can forget Mr. Bill telling Houston! to go f**k himself?

Remember that was back when our moderators were supposedly reading ALL comments prior to posting!

Like everything else with them... it's do as I SAY not as I DO! lol

Well, sorry, gang, but I disagree - JoAnne or JoAnna, it was uncalled for. Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for an apology from Eric

___________________

Sorry JoAnne - I have called out Eric on MANY occasions and if I missed that particular exchange I apologize as I would have then as well!

The left is always so sloppy with their facts. To set the record straight, what I said to Houston one day was "GFU." And I would do it again to folks like him who sit at their computers all day, pick out posts they don't agree with, then call the posters liars. See drive-by-observer above for the most recent example.

In the real world, calling someone a liar is pretty serious stuff and the accuser better be able to back it up. But on this blog it's a common leftist tactic and any idiot with a keyboard can play fast and loose with that charge, without need of compelling proof or fear of adverse consequence.

So spare me the hypocritical crocodile tears.

Thanks, Feisty - no apology necessary; I was just trying to refute the point that said we never challenge our own side. I don't think any of us have the ability to respond to every single post on here - if we did, it would be even more chaotic than it already is! :)

Thanks for the kind words from those who understood the point of my comment.

For those who wondered why I chose to mention this today, things were getting uglier by the day and by the hour. That said, you can go back to posts in 2008 and 2009, where I have made similar comments (as have other liberals and republicans). Nowhere in my post did I use the word censorship.

I doubt you will find posts of mine that call people names, I may occasionally respond with sarcasm at a remark but that is far from namecalling or hateful. If you paid attention, you would see liberals taking both sides to task for "over the top" comments. I've told Eric if he would stop his namecalling, he has some good points; others have also.

It breaks down to this, the First amendment is a wonderful beautiful thing. We all should have the right to express our own opinion. The problem is, as with most things in life, people will totally take advantage of a good thing, and even us it for evil. The other problem is people take other peoples opinions way to personally, they don't show respect for each others opinions. People start screaming and yelling and name calling.

It is crazy how we generalize and judge everyone so quickly. Dems can share republican values, and repubs can share democratic values. It seems a lot of people want to divide our country up, rather than working on common ground. A lot of people spend to much time making up new ways to say "democrat" (and they are probably very proud of that) and telling democrats what they think Democrats believe, than actually talking about facts and having a civil discussion.

I am really starting to wonder if the people advocating the right on this forum can comprehend the English language. I understand that people from both sides talk alot of crap back and forth but I have to wonder if you even understood the original post. The original post was pointed at no one and still people start insulting Jody. One last thing is you see what side of the isle the insults start. It is like yesterday all I asked is what the Republican platform was for 2010 and got not one answer.

".....PMSNBC.."

Hmmm.... where have I heard this play on 'MSNBC' before?

Nice to see a post that contains a lot of ORIGINAL thought and commentary.

"Nice to see a post that contains a lot of ORIGINAL thought and commentary."

Thanks for the compliment. I see your post "contains a lot of ORIGINAL thought and commentary".

Happy Birthday Charlie Rangel! ;o)

P.S. If everyone in America with questionable business dealings stopped celebrating their birthdays it would be a very sad country indeed! lol

Wow, for someone with a clear disdain for the programmingon MSNBC you certainly watch a lot of it.

It has the best cable comedy shows on TV!!!!!!!

Even better: It has the best Professional Left cable comedy shows on TV.

My thanks go out to Robert Gibbs for his mistake in exposing the ACTUAL TRUTH.

And if his long-time friends DON'T go, you can accuse them of throwing Charlie under the bus! You can have it both ways - in the alternative universe that you seem to inhabit!

Joe in Albany-

Actually Joe, I watched part of yesterday's "Hardball", and the segment with Chuck Todd and Charlie Cook (The Cook Political Report, National Journal) was pretty informative.

When Todd mentioned the fact that, on a whole host of issues raised in the new NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll, respondents felt that President Obama hadn't met their expectations, Charlie Cook said "...what this means is the economy has contaminated everything..."

So much for "Recovery Summer".

Cook further stated that his political science models are showing "...30 to 50 seat gains for the Republicans in the House...and to be honest, you know, I think it's more likely to be on the high half of that range than the bottom half of that range..." and "...there's not any good news out there for Democrats..." with regard to the midterm elections.

Charlie Cook is a highly respected, well-paid political analyst, and as a longtime Democratic political operative, he's certainly no shill for the GOP. When Cook says he believes it likely that Democrats will lose around 50 seats, its time for Democrats to wake up from the Obama-induced euphoric stupor of the 2008 election cycle.

Because if Cook is correct, it's going to be a very different political environment in D.C. after November.

Should be a pretty interesting environment here at First Read post-Election Day as well.

You do realize mixed bag that Charlie Cook predicted the Democrats would only pick up 1 or 2 seats in 2008, and Hilary would be the Democrats chose for President don't you. So I guess your putting all your hopes on Cook, good luck with that. Personally Cooks prediction have me vary hopeful for the Democrats chances in November, cause he's always wrong.

MB, I will give Mathews credit for occasionally allowing a point of view that doesn't match his own. And most of his guests are reasonably intelligent, regardless of their left/right leanings (Unlike Mr. Ed's guests that are mostly not enen as bright as him. LOL!!!). That being said, Wiffleball still does deliver the laughs on a regular basis.

"Personally Cooks prediction have me vary hopeful for the Democrats"

Mo, "vary" is spelled "very" in the English language.

Mo-1852032-

You really believe Cook has this one wrong, do you, Mo?

It won't be long before we know for sure.

Charlie Cook is correct far more often than he's mistaken...I'll accept his credentials over yours as a political handicapper.

We'll see who got it right in November.

MB

Hey Joe in Albany:

People can have typos in their postings without need for denigration from the likes of you.

i dont see how anyone can think that republicrats gaining more seats and haveing the majority will lead to any change of how things are going in this country, they have showed everyone in america that they have no ideas and that they are only able to do things to help the corperations of this country and say no to everything else!

And until democrans grow some balls we will not see the change we were promised, both of these groups of simpleminded yes men (to corperations, not the people), need to be removed from our government. Stop supporting the 2 worse gangs we have in this country, vote for independents thats the only way we will see CHANGE and HOPE to "TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK"!

The Fork on The Road…..Which Path Do We Take?

Yes I have heard the some disparagement of government by those that want to govern and especially by those representing “welfare states” how ironic can this become? Those that cry out for the loss of liberties want to go back to a time of less liberty. That capital hill is run by a certain contingent of mad men and woman that now wants to add to their ranks is frightening to say the least. I only want my fellow Americans to think and see the charade for what it is, a charade and a grab for power by mad men and women. The thinly disguised Libertarian views cloaked under the brand name “Republican” is how they have found the crevice in national politics’ to finally advance modern Neo-Fascism. When will they start looking for ‘Un-American” views? Look past the rhetoric and see what these lunatics are proposing as they run and hide from our lame media. Afraid to sit down and point blank answer the hard questions of what they plan for us. Why do they run? I wrote a few lines from a few of my favorites that I think is opportune for this time in our national life. These are false leaders, the worst sort of governance we could have. My worst fears may yet come to pass. The number is 2.4 Million Americans soon to run out of unemployment, that does not count the millions off the rolls, aid and what do they do next? I suppose lose their homes and go on welfare and the welfare agencies will find work, which does not exist; they must do to get the measly check. How does this add up?

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men/women to do nothing,”…unknown

”Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well” Peter Ustinov

Have a nice day………………..

Hey, Ginger, it's not a typo. Mo spells it that way all the time.

The democrats have no reason to be desperate. There was a new political opinion poll out, and you know what? The GOP is winning ONLY IN THE SOUTH!!!!!!!!!!!

Happy Anniversary to my most favorite Independent Redneck! :o)

P.S. I need to keep my faculties about me today . . . so I'll just have a nice little lemonade this fine morning . . . it could get a little crazy in here today . . . so I wanna be nice and sober! lol

Happy Anniversary IR!

Happy Anniversary, IR. Cherish every moment you spend together.

Happy Anniversary to you and your RedHead IR! ;0)

I'm gonna join Nash with the lemonade (extra ice please) as I had a couple of glasses of wine last night! lol

And here's WISHING Rick, KY a VERY Happy Birthday (even if he doesn't like my popcorn cake!)

Happy Anniversary, I.R. What time does the party start? We can celebrate Rick, KY's birthday, too! Both of you, have a fine celebration.

Congratulations, IR - she's a lucky lady. May you have many more years of wedded bliss!

I didn't know today was Rick's birthday . . . August 12th is obviously a very lucky day . . . Happy Birthday Rick . . . hope it is wonderful!

Happy anniversary, Cap'n. Put a quarter in that Dew Drop beat-box and play Patsy Cline for me, wouldja?

Happy anniversary to you and your lovely redhead. See you at the Dew Drop Inn.

Happy anniversary-and many, many more years of joy!

Why thank each of you'll from the bottom of me and my better halfs heart. I'm kinda hoping the the Ky. Truthteller will take a little time off from his own Birthday celebration to come down and M.C. this party for you'll. As Jody and some mentioned above some things haven't been much fun around here lately so I hope both friend and foe that want a round on me will accept this little bit of irreverancy in the spirit with which it's intended. Keep well all

And Rick....a very happy birthday to you!

Happy anniversary IR. and a happy birthday to you also Rick.

IR Forgive me for being tardy: Happy Anniversary. I was somewhat sidetracked this morning.

Happy Anniversary, IR--care to share any secrets of wedded bliss? And Happy Birthday to Rick--a good day to celebrate. Does the Dew Drop Inn serve champagne--my drink of choice?

Hey IR: Happy Anniversary! And may you have many, many, many....MORE! :)

Happy Birthday to Rick, Ky too!! :)

Happy anniversary, IR and RH! I have to agree with your RH, you're a keeper!

Congratulations IR, and good for you both!

Heya IR and Lady, Happy Anniversary, and a Happy Birthday to you Rich. I wish all of you a great day!!

Happy Anniversary and Happy Birthday to some of my favorite posters on FR!!

Steeler made sure that we had both foreign and domestic so you step right up and take your pick. I don’t know that about that secret thing. In my case I think that about the only I can say that is I was lucky to find the one person short of my Redneck Daddy that I can honestly say is my best friend bar none.

No Jo I do want to especially thank you for your good thoughts here. You and I both know that this particular little deal has been used to tease you a bunch and I’m glad to see you. May be you or Bill or Richard or some of the older Right side guys can help me out some if you get back over here. I know that you’ll pay right close attention to what goes on around here as I do. Do you’ll not have a problem with some of these folks that seem to show up on certain days and certain threads and spout the most hateful stuff? I mean all of you folks while I may not agree with you much do take time to put something of some substance out for consideration. Seems like we just have a bunch that I don’t recognize show up and most of the time that would detract more from you’lls hard work and effort. I’m serious here not trying to start a fight or anything I just would really be interested in some old friend’s thoughts on the deal

Nash:

Right on. Clarity of thought, logical presentation of a position will beat Rovian smears every time.

Thank you Nash!

You have NO idea how much that was needed this morning!

Excellent, you hit the ball out of the park! It lifts our spirits high.

Good description of the content of the Sean Hannity show, Nash....

Okay, Nash-try 'thinking' about this:

the day AFTER the Fed re-evaluated the economy, declared the economic outlook dim, and took some small steps, (buying debt to lower interest rates), to stem the slide-

the same day that the Dow went into freefall-

Obama declared 'the worst of the recession over.

That was yesterday-

today, new claims for unemployment rose AGAIN by 2000-making this the worst statistic in 6 months.

What I THINK, what most people THINK, is that Obama is in way over his head, is a dismal failure, and never should have been elected in the first place.

You "think" he walks on water. Which of us is rational? Take a look at what his policies have wrought, and I 'think' you'll find the answer.

Thanks to eveyone for your comments!

***BIG HUG for my Feisty . . . remember . . . we have the truth AND popcorn on our side, we are INVINCIBLE! ;o)***

LOL

Thanks Nash and a *GIANT HUG* right back at ya!

How's the lemonade? Mine is just right!

nojoe:

I "think" that a 8 year deep hole takes more than 20 months to dig out of.

I also "think" that when the stock market is up, I never hear a peep out of you or any mention of how the Obama Administration was responsible.

So I "think" that you selectively see and hear what you like and discard the rest.

I "think" that you secretly find President Obama incredibly attractive, and this is why you overcompensate with your over-the-top posts about how horrible he is . . . nobody really ever spends that much time thinking about something or someone they genuinely don't like you know.

How's that? ;o)

P.S. After working for two years to elected President Obama, donating money I didn't have, wading through piles of lies, having "battles of wits" with unarmed people . . . did you really think that I would just wilt and run away at the first bad poll or because of some deranged folks making signs to "take back" a country that they never owned in the first place?

Not a chance.

Feisty,

My lemonade was delicious . . . I think . . . sadly I pretty much sucked it all down in one slurp . . . I'm gonna head back over to the Dew Drop for another glass . . . I'll take this glass nice and slow . . . savor every tangy sweet drop while watching the smear merchants here at First Read try to hide their desperation at not being able to lay a GLOVE on our President!

lol

Great post Nash, but you know talk like that drives the teabagging republicans nuts don't you.

That sounds like a splendid plan GF!

Have I told you lately how much I enjoy your daily dismantling of their talking points!

You one does better than you Nash! ;0)

Nashville--I love your positive attitude. We do need to focus on the positives, which there are many. I still recall the night of President Obama's election when he reminded us that recovery wouldn't be easy or fast. Well, it hasn't been easy or fast but it has been steady. I have a suspicion that we were closer to total economic meltdown than we will ever know.

WOW, Nash!! As was said before you hit this one out of the park---Worthy of the Babe himself!

Good morning all,

Something that happened to me yesterday on FR speaks to what Nash was just talking about. Another poster put up a list of several "facts". I asked him for his source. I was told that I could "look it up".

If I represent an opposing viewpoint, it is not my job to prove your point. My job is to refute your claim. If called upon to prove a claim or "fact", then you should either be willing to do so or admit that it is opinion. I can respect an opinion when stated as such, not when it masquerades as fact. (If my words make me a hypocrite, I accept full responsibility for such.)

Good point Sean. Seems to me if you really believe what you say you should be ready to back that opinion up and expand on it.

Thanks, Nash, as always, for your calm and reasoned voice of sanity in this Babel that is First Read.

...and the happiest of birthdays, Rick, my neighbor to the north! :)

Happy birthday, Rick, as well.

And also, to anyone who uses this board: Don't hesitate to admit when you're wrong. I know it's hard to do, but if you're wrong about something, admit it and move on.

Geez Nashville_fan, you make me want to cry. That's the best post I've read in quite some time. I just have to come here more often.

Independent Redneck: My congratulations on your having found love AND keeping it. May you have many more celebrations.

May I take this opportunity to ask - and this is not directed at you specifically - why anyone who has discovered the joy, the fulfillment, and the wonder of love would deny that to anyone else - even IF they are homosexual? More to the point, why would anyone - heterosexual OR homosexual - want and/or demand government involvement in that aspect of such an intensely private and personal part of their lives? "Do you take this man, this woman, and this government to have and to hold.......?"

Finally, to many of the posters here: It's really great to come to a forum where posters actually have a sense of humor.

Best to you.

Hi, David Walker: I join you in those questions. I simply don't get it. If we want less government intrusion, why do we want the government involved in the most intimate decisions of our lives? In the interest of fair disclosure, I am a long married mom of four young adults. Do I support gay marriage? Yes. What does the Equal Protection Clause mean? If you don't allow gay marriage, then one group of citizens gets the benefits that marriage confers, including tax benefits, insurance benefits, being able to be involved when that loved one is ill. One group of citizens is not allowed those benefits. If we believe in equal treatment of all citizens, there is not an argument that can be made about this. If a gay couple weds, does that make my marriage less valid? How would it possibly do that? I think the tide is finally turning. We are moving toward acceptance. I hope that gives you one view point on this matter.

Anna Molly,

Love your rant, love you!

P.S. I love Robert Gibbs too . . . but he does have a tendency to become the story . . . he had a point . . . but you do as well . . . I say that working to thwart the "corporate people" has got to be job one . . . they are so good at keeping us off balance with nontroversies though! ;o)

Anna Molly:

You are funny...even when you are ranting! Yep, I voted.

More excellence with humor!

Wonder what the corporations who need smart people will do when they have deprived the public education system of the ability to teach and provide smart, young people? Selfish greed sooner or later reaps its reward.

maybe we don't need large corporations any more?! Lets get really radical here and think about doing away with those large corporations. Buy local, eat local, support local business. Those who are unemployed should think about starting a local business. Maybe we need to get as many people together to start their own local business. Band together to loan money to one another without expecting 75% profits on that money.

In fact, what if there was no money? If you go back to the 'Star Trek" series, the world had evolved beyond money. People helped each other out, people worked at what they enjoyed - not just to make money. Take a moment and try envision a world with no money. All of the evils that are happening in this country and this world today have their root in money. If that is removed, would mankind change? Not be greedy, help each other, become self actualized!

sonokursh2 excellent post! Communities caring about it's citizens instead of trying to figure out ways to make larger profit margins every year. The only problem is that some people believe that unrelenting greed is admirable.

More good thoughts today. I am always amused at how the media takes what I consider positive numbers and makes them negatives. Obama's approval numbers are actually better or the same as those of Reagan, Bush 41 and Clinton at the same point in their presidency. What is astounding is that Obama's numbers are high considering the depth and number of problems facing him Jan 20, 2009, and he has to deal with the right-wing media giants who love their personal income more than they do truth.

Couldn't have saaid it any better myself CA . . . and I tried! lol

The only one who made that comment was you.

CU Farley

Obviously, all those polled who don't approve of the Dems and the ones that don't approves of Obama's job performance are racists and toothless hillbilly trailer-trash.

farley here you go again, the poll is saying that people don't approve of democtats or republicans equally. sorry there are no racist over tones in this poll, from either side. you and InTheMiddle are the only ones here trying to bring racism in to this discussion so please stop.

actually some have teeth and live in brick homes

Joanne Pa, what a great story, Thanksgiving must be fun in your family.

I have great hope that the youngest generation, my grandchildrens, will be more tolerant, more flexible and understanding that while we have differences in backgrounds, religions, and races, we all have the same desires and aspirations for our futures. I vote for hope and change.

Wonderful post, JoAnne! It was a joy to read.

Your family is the American family and is what was envisioned by our founding fathers for this country. What a great testimony to the American way of life.

They youth of today accept as normal what us old folks are still arguing about. Great post.

JoAnne:

What a great post. I come from a rather small family and to hear of an American family that shares the ideal I believe are important is heartwarming. Thank you for sharing.

And people think that Pennsylvania is boring!!! Great story, JoAnne & thanks for sharing it. I think that you are right that these children will look at us and wonder what the fuss was about. And that people go on about their daily lives doing the best they can, in spite of what the politicians do, not because of what they do. It is a huge shift in our country's demographics and I think those who don't embrace it are making a big mistake.

Thanks, all.

Gingerbread - You're right, there have been some interesting Thanksgivings - not everyone can say they once went to their father's wedding on Thanksgiving Day in Washington, D.C., for example!

Steeler Fan - Have been meaning to ask you - have you seen Toomey's newest (and lowest) tv add where he claims that Joe Sestak voted to END PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE ENTIRELY? It always runs by too fast to catch the supposed documentation of that claim - do you know where he came up with that one?

JoAnne in PA:

Loved your post! Your reality is more common to a lot of families and we are doing just fine in all of our races, religions, sexual orientation, etc. Will be glad when the rest of the country catches up!

Joanne- great story. It's funny how children don't really care about colour or nationalities until they are much older. If the proponents of repealing the 14th Amendment have their way, all of the 'mixed' children in your life would be stripped of their birthright/citizenship, and can you imagine the chaos that would ensue?

Thank you JoAnne!! My family is quite similar - my nephew married a Japanese woman he met in Japan when he was teaching - they live in the USA now and have two wonderful boys. My nephew on my husbands side is getting married in a few weeks to a woman of hispanic background.

My son wanted to go to a college where there was more diversity than an all white school. So yes - I too have observed that the youth regard race as nothing to get upset about but more like they are all friends. It is wonderful to see.

"Not sure about toothless hilbilly trailer-trash, though, and why they seem to think the repubs give one rat's-ass about them and their lot in life."

dbo, Jody is going to be all over your a$$ for "degradation of civil discussion".

LMAO@U!!!!!!!

Mock me all you wish, Joe. The more you say, the more you prove my point.

You know the only reason no joe all blow and Joe Albany are here Jody is to prove just how stupid the teabagging republicans are.

Jody: Joe seems very sensitive to what you say. The do say that the truth hurts.....

Jody, isn't this where you should be criticizing dbo for "degradation of civil discussion" in order to "prove your point"??

Instead, you take a shot at me.

Can you say "lefty liberal hypocrites"?? Sure you can.

BTW, I think Mo is also "degrading the civil discussion". She's probably p!ssed that she wasn't up to my challenge to find where I ever advocated "extending the tax cuts to the top 2%".

LMAO!!!!

Joe,

Here's how you know when you have lost our way:

When instead of doing what you know is right, you do what everyone else is doing, even though you know better.

Saying "they posted something mean too" is kind of lame, no?

Joe- for what it's worth, I lifted the 'trailer trash' line from one C U Farley.

ALso- I'm sorry you have to live in Albany. I'd be cranky, too.

Jody and Ron, don't break your arm trying to pat yourselves on the back. Take Jody's message, look in the mirror and read it to yourselves. You both have participated in some pretty ugly discourse on this site. You use derogatory names and have taken pot shots at people who disagree with you. And, Feisty, for you to even DARE imply you behave civilly should make people throw up or roll on the floor laughing. One thing is true in life, though, you can't change other people; the only person you can change is yourself. If you want this site to be more civil, then start with yourself.

driveby, substitute Hispanic for "hillbilly trash" and you sound just like Harry Reid.

Thank you, Dirt-303814.

Speaking of "retarded", the Godfather character you have chosen for your name was definetely not a rocket scientist. I'm guessing his IQ was about 50, but, he was very good at murdering people on command.

And I'd guess your IQ Joe is quite abit lower than 50, but your vary good at lying on command.

Awesome comment Joe! Way to take it to him! *end sarcasm*

Mo, in the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, "there you go again", degrading the civil discussion.

Jody?

BTW, Mo, "abit" is two words, and "vary" is spelled "very". You really should not be commenting on other peoples IQ.

LOL!!!

Joe,

Since you have yet to add anything that isn't garbage to the discussion, why do you think you have any credibility to call anyone else out for their "degrading the civil discussion".

Help by setting an example and not being a child about it.

Why do you think raising the bar is going to just happen over night? I suppose you also believe that the current administration should already have fixed the problems that have taken nearly 3 decades to create.

Not far off the mark Luca, but to be fair it's pretty normal for the attitude of people regarding the economy to not improve until the recovery is well along. Progress contineus. Not fast enough for anyone, but then again the stimulus was badly compromised and things dropped very badly in the 2007 recession. Employment is a lagging indicator, polling will improve when the jobs picture improves, as is always the case.

Great news! It made my day, too, just thinking about those signs, giant pictures. .....READY TO GO!

I had a thought about this years bumper sticker:

Dems= Main Street

GOP= Mean Street

Anybody else got one?

I like that bumper sticker John . . . how about:

FREEDOM for "corporate people" equals SLAVERY for "working people"!

lol

(That might be a little too deep for most . . . I got a feeling most folks don't even know that corporations are people now . . . and who is gonna tell 'em . . . certainly not the corporately owned media!)

I've actually seen this one... and never stop laughing at the truth behind it!

'Voting for a Republican is equivalent to a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders'!

John:

I like that bumper sticker. Go for it. create some.

Nashville, thanks for the post of HOPE!!! And John--great slogun!

One more bumper sticker:

Does America need more negative people? GOP=NO

Trick question...????

Nice to see you back in action Pat! Hope you're feeling better!

I heard that exchange and couldn't help but wonder what the hell Ed is trying to do other than DIVIDE the Democrats!

Yelling & screaming that it was the LIBERALS that won the election for President Obama couldn't be farther from the truth! It was all Democrats - Independents & Moderate Republicans who WON the WH for our President!

Hissy fits by the hard lefties will solve nothing especially with the election being less than 3 months away!

I also stand behind Robert Gibb's comments!

I think the thing to remember about Robert Gibbs is that he has been a friend of Barack Obama's for along time . . . so it is hard for him to stay "professional" and "detached".

I agree with what he said . . . and I understand why many have taken it so hard.

Ironically enough, I think the "professional left" and the "keep the Obama Adminsration accountable left" are feeling a small taste of what the Obama Adminsitration is trying to express: "After all that we have been through together, this is how you treat me?"

Relationships are tough . . . but if they have the proper foundation they can survive.

So if folks are really fighting for CAUSES and not just to have the last word . . . this will not be a long term problem in my humble (and fallible) opinion.

Pat, great post with good points. I stand behind the President and what he is trying to do. Robert Gibbs, one of my favorites, was absolutly right and there is no need for him say sorry.

The immaturity of people on the left is pathetic. NO patience and these so called leafleaning pundits fomenting divisivness just for ratings and therefore keeping their jobs are part of the problem too.

More great thoughts today. Glad to see you, Pat.

Sometimes Alan Grayson makes a good point but he is prone to the "sensational" for headlines. What I find interesting or I should say amusing is that the professional liberals can throw criticism at the President and WH but cannot take it when a bit of mud gets thrown back.

Anthony Weiner yesterday came to the reasonable and logical conclusion that Robert Gibbs like everyone who is press secretary or any other public official, sooner or later they will make a silly comment out of frustration or just being human. Cheers again to Anthony Weiner!

Great post, Pat!! Mornin Feisty...

Did you notice last night how close Ed's poll was to fire Gibbs... Usually his posts are 95% in agreement with him... Last night's poll was only 55%... People are already getting tired of his 'not good enough' attitude... To hear him tell it, he alone elected President Obama... Yuck... Same sentiments for Hampsher & Huffington... Lots of hot air, no solutions... Just whine...

On a side note, the PR mgr at Jet Blue must be in hog heaven. The spin line of the week seems to be 'Jet Blue'... Go figure...

Gingerbread Mamma

Pat, great post with good points. I stand behind the President and what he is trying to do. Robert Gibbs, one of my favorites, was absolutly right and there is no need for him say sorry.

We really need to highlight the the good job our President has done. What some on the left do not seem to realize is how frustrating it must be for the President to see his supports echo the talking points of the right. If they must rant, it could be two fold. Explain how difficult it is to sift through the lies from the right and tout the progress the Progress the President has done rather than excoriate and talk of abandoning him. otherwise all of efforts will be for naught.

I have stopped visiting FDL because it's so hateful to me and at times I have a difficult time with Arinana.

I think Anthony Weiner did a good job explaining yesterday when he said we must emphaize that we support our President because we want the Democratic to succeed.

Pat:

I really am glad to see you back. Your thoughtful comments are an inspiration. Our President is doing a great job, in spite of incredible obstacles.

I don't think we are a "jet blue" nation! Why celebrate bad behavior! We can see what happened since the town hall meetings last summer. Bad behvior is just that, BAD!

Morning Lyn,

Thanks for the update as I didn't see the final phone poll numbers... V E R Y interesting!

Pat:

Amen!

Robert Gibss was 100% correct in his assessment. The extreme left wing or Progressives on steroids want the President to do what they want, when they want, or else he is somehow not competent. Give me a break!

What the hell do they think a McCain/Palin administration would look like right about now?

I am sick of those whiners who call themselves Progressives but really they act like spoiled children.

The President must be doing the right thing because both the extreme left and extreme right are going after him with a vengeance!

Agreed, Sheila. The Administration is SO MUCH BETTER than the one we could have had that comparisons are practically meaningless. Everything isn't as everyone on the far Left would like...heck, it isn't even as I would like...but those same folks could pretty well depend on getting NOTHING they want under President McCain. The important thing to remember is that progress comes OVER TIME.

Leon,

You know this how? Thinking it's your opinion. Simple question for you, had you been there? just wondering.

"all this could have been averted by using sp. ops. and predator drones on the hunt for bin laden."

Any time you ask a General when we should get out of a war, they will say in 10+ years. It is like, when you have a hammer in your hand - everything looks like a nail. Can we be successful in a war when the people don't want us there? Should an army invade a country to chase down terrorists without a country? I think those are some good questions that should be answered.

first, as an American I do have a say in whether we invade a country or not...that goes with the "we the people" kind of thing. but now to yours... I have two nephews over there working on a second tour. one air force, one army. at last count(maybe a census, I don't know how they do it) there were less than 100 al qaida in iraq, less than a 1000 in afghanistan. they were the ones who actually attacked paul-florida. do you really think invading countries the size of Texas were the way to go about this? our presence made the insurgency much worse. and damn near bankrupted our nation.

Larry, I don't care that you didn't let your child watch obama's speech it just shows intolerance to other ideas.BTW, he just said stay in school, do your best work, listen to your parents. there were no subliminal messages about socialism.

We need sufficient military strength to keep us safe, no doubt about it. That said, is that level of Defense spending really greater than the rest of the world put together? Should we really continue development and production of systems the Pentagon doesn't want? I'm glad our military people never give up, always see every fight as winnable, but that's what civilian leadership is for. Just because we might conceivably win a conflict that doesn't mean it's worth the cost in coin and capital.

We have no hope of ever having a sane budget as long as every day is Christmas for the Pentagon.

Thanks, Steven - and right back at you. I refuse to believe that there isn't common ground out there somewhere; we just have to dig a little deeper to find it.

I've said it before and will say it again - we can not expect of our leaders what we don't demand of ourselves.

My sentiments exactly. You added depth to my earlier comment.

If people put half as much energy into finding solutions instead of bickering we'd all be in pretty good shape I think :)

JoAnne I always look forward to your posts they are well thought out.

Jody, shows we were both typing the same thing at the same time probably :)

Bev, get a grip, and a life.

Joe in Albany

Bev, get a grip, and a life.

Joe, attack me all you like it doesn't matter. What matters is you have not answered my question.


Again, do you think it's okay to deny Muslims the freedom of speech?

The truth hurts doesn't it Joe. Good post Beverly.

Thanks Mo.

I try to elicit objective rather than subjective dialogue in regards to facts. I think Joe in Albany is just being obstinate.

I'm still waiting for an answer. I hope it won't be in September when Republicans are going to unveil their plan(s) to get the economy on the right track .

Morning Bev!

Me too! Someone said last night around here that they have been visiting the RNC sites and that there are quite a few good ideas... lmao!

Question is then.... if that's in FACT true - why didn't they bother to post them or provide the link?

Why all the secrecy I ask? If you REALLY have something... please do SHARE!

Well said, Beverly.

Joe doesn't like what I said and I find it more amusing than annoying; with every reply he has, he further proves my point. There is no discussion of the issue, no answer to a question he is asked just a snarky comment.

Hiya Fiesty,

Question is then.... if that's in FACT true - why didn't they bother to post them or provide the link?

Why all the secrecy I ask? If you REALLY have something... please do SHARE!

Girl Friend, that's because they're liars and will do anything to lambaste this President and his administration. The truth is they are just plain, stupid, masochist, living in Sarah Palin's dominatrix land. Talk about cutting ones nose off to spite.

Btw: why aren't the Tea Baggers picketing Wall Street with Ed Schultz?

In regards to Ed and his remarks about Gibbs, I think Ed want to motivate the President and the masses but sometimes he gets too fired up. In the long run Ed means well.

After all, none of us are perfect. We hopefully can learn from this flaw and coalesce and get to stepping on keeping our majority.

Bev, if you think asking a group whose radical members murdered 3,000 people to locate its Cultural Center further away from the scene of the crime, in respect of the deceased’s relatives wishes, is “denying Muslims the freedom of speech” , then you REALLY need to get a grip and a life.

Tell me, Bev, as such a staunch supporter of the First Amendment right of freedom of speech, would you support and defend a reviled group like the Klan if it wanted to establish a white supremacist “Cultural Center” a couple of blocks for Martin Luther King’s Ebeneezer Baptist Church?? (Remember, they are U. S. citizens under the 14th Amendment)

Or, do you believe the First Amendment only protects lefty liberal, politically-correct speech??

A simple yes or no will suffice.

BTW, I noticed you announced you were waiting for my response in a later post. The ball’s in your court now. I await your yes or no answer to the question about whether you would support the Klan’s right to freedom of speech.

LOL!!!

Thanks for the joke, Bev. That was a good one...you as "objective" and not "subjective". Too funny.

Joe, have all the relatives of all 3,000 killed on 9/11 been polled and given an opinion on the Cultural Center? They're all against it? Even relatives of the innocent Muslims killed? The site is 2 blocks away, around the corner and out of site from Ground Zero. How far away is far enough? You're simply altering your argument to fit the situation. For some people anywhere on US soil is too close to Ground Zero http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/top_social_conservative_no_more_mosques_period.php .

Bev??

I'm still waiting, but, I'm not surprised you haven't responded.

Joe?

I'm still waiting, but, I'm not surprised you haven't responded.

Sorry, John, It's my policy to not respond to ridiculous questions.

They were questions that came directly for your own argument, so you refuse to defend it. It's OK to admit that Joe, the guy who said it on TV or the radio was wrong to begin with.

Amen CA!

I guess Im on the "right" and CA I can tell you one thing for sure..... Im not afraid of Obama in any way shape or form..... Im saddened by his actions and Im afraid for what this country will look like by the time he is done "tranforming" it. But I am not afraid of him.

But you seem to be afraid of the questions I have asked you. Ready to take a swing at them?

Larry, Minot:

Ok Larry. I'll buy you are not afraid of Obama. But I'm also pretty sure that many here on the left (and independents) who speak of Palin now and then or who respond to story's that First Read put out about Palin are not afraid of her as well. But I will say this. I have read your post and as with most on the right you express your frustration and lack of support for Obama. That is fine and it is your right. But neither you or any others o nthe right have a clue as to who could seriously take on Obama in 2012, and while criticzing Obama the riight and the republican party continue to splinter themselves and tout extreme right wing names or personalities that would not stand a chance in a general election against Obama. All I am saying is that those o nthe right, if they want a republican Presdient elected in 2012, better start taking care of their own house and looking for a legitimate leader and contender or the Obama Yes We Can Bus will pass you by in 2012.

Larrry, Minot:

And don't be saddened. This country will be just fine and will do well under the Obama Presidency, first and second term. We face some major problems and are going through some major transformations not to mention finally attending to some issues that both parties have put off for years and that that have needed our attention. The plate is more than full and as these problems are confronted and we attend to those things we have put off for far too long there are going to be some ups and downs and adjustments required. But we'll make it, we'll be ok under this President.

CA:

In case you apparently didn't know, OBAMA is the POTUS. Palin is a private citizen.

You are no more knowledgeble about the Republican party than ET.

Why do you Liberals tend to think you understand a party that you have no affiliation with?

InTheMiddle:

What's the matter ITM, struck a chord. Just tell us who the right is going to run against Obama in 2012, what they would do and how they would do better. And if mentioing a name we are familiar with we can all find polls and numbers that express the amount of support such a person might have now and in 2012.

As for Palin. She may not be POTUS, but you have a bunch of tea baggers out there who really think she should be and she will be a huge influential force on the right come 2012. So I would say that you folks better start looking at her favorable/unfavorable polling numbers.

Or, you can just keep coming on the blog criticizing and blasting Obama. Fine by me.

Ca,

I think one of the differences in your commentary on President Obama and Sarah Palin is the relative status of the individuals in question. Generally speaking, the Office of the President, at this time President Obama, is a lightning rod, and he is expected to be a focal point of both positive and negative feelings, as was President Bush. Sarah Palin, on the other hand, is far less likely to have an influence on public policy, as she neither holds office, nor proposes legislation. You may (accurately) comment that she does influence policy via endorsements of various individuals, but she is technically, a private individual, and of far less stature than the President. The infatuation on the left with her, is far less understandable to me (and I grant you, I'm a righty), than the right's infatuation with President Obama.

As respects a choice in 2012 for the Republicans, my preference is to sit back and evaluate the candidates, as they become candidates, not prior to the mid-term elections. Personally, I don't expect Sarah Palin to run, and I wouldn't vote for her in a primary no matter what. In a general election against President Obama, I may even, for the first time since being able to vote, disregard the selection of a Presidential candidate if she is the eventual nominee. Paul Ryan, Mitt Romney, Mitch Daniels, even Chris Christie, are all people that will probably test the waters, although Ryan says he's not interested. Any of them that declares themselves a candidate will then warrant close examination, at the moment though, it's too early.

For the past two years (effectively) the Republicans have been shut out of the responsibility for governance. You can make a case that they chose that role for themselves, or you can assert that they were locked out of the process. It's highly unlikely that we will agree on that point, but that point isn't necessarily germane to the next two years. My hope is that the Republicans win the House, but I highly doubt they will be in the majority in the Senate. With ownership of the House, comes the responsibility to govern, and again, my hope is that the Republicans dispense with the rancor, partisanship, and general disdain for the minority party that has been a hallmark of the House for quite some time, not just since the Democrats took over, but also when Republicans were in control.

Our elected officials are our representatives, and we should hold them to the minimum standards that we are held to at work, which is to treat each other with respect, act with civility toward one another, and to attempt to work together for the benefit of the firm (country).

CA,

I think you miss the point on way Independents are not supporting Obama. Spending is probably the main reason. Don't forget this train wreck was started in 98 with Phil Gramm and Clinton agreeing to ease on buying a house. You want to blame Bush, but the Democrats took charge of both house and Senate in January 07. This 26 Billion dollar BS Bill is what it is-BS. It seems that Democrats have a short memory loss when it comes to promises.

Here's the problem with Obama this is my "opinion" why he won't get elected. You're going to have the Left and the Right that will never change. It's the Indepedents that will decide this coming election and the next. I look at it as a credit card. You can't keep spending. How are we paying for this. This week this Congress effected 41 Million people by taking away their food stamps to "Maybe" save some 140,000 jobs, which I find it hard to believe they will see any of it.

Living in LA:

Certain persons belonging to a party or political philosophy outside of power of that currenrly in the Whitehouse have always had a huge amount of influence as to how that party will shape itself and future elections. They also have had a huge influence as to how their minority party votes and conduicts themselves during the administration of an opposing party.

Let's not be naive here LA. Both parties begin campaiging for the next election as soon as one or the other party walks into office. In this case the republicans started campaiging for the Nov elections and 2012 elections the minute Obama won the Presdiency. And that person who is making a huge influence on republicans at this time is Sarah Palin. So even if not in a position to make policy she and her favorable/unfavorbale numbers cannot be ignored. Or, you can ignore them if you like. As for the other potential canddiate you mentioned. Their paths also will be determined and shaped by the likes of Palin, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc., and those people who appear to worship the ground they walk on (sound familiar?). Those candidates you mentioned will not be running on their own or on their own merits. The will be running in acordance with those who have the influence at the time. And at this time it is Palin who has that influence.

Paul-Florida:

You may be right about the independents Paul. But even so, and although Obama's numbers with independents may be low at this time, any and all known potential Republican contenders at this time do not have the support or faith of the independents as well. When Palin, Gingrich and others receive favorability ratings anywhere from 30% to 40% or less Paul, those numbers include independents as well. Many independents may be angry and or not supportive of Obama at this time but my point is those same independents are not being given any legiitmate alternate choice by the republicans. And if not given a legitmate choice by the Republicans, when the time comes they will vote for Obama. They may do so grugingly, but Obama will get the majority of their votes.

Ca,

I think you give the Republicans (and I'm one) far too much credit with respect to the campaigning issue. Perhaps we should emulate Great Britain, and reduce our election cycle down to roughly six weeks, that would put an end to the (seemingly) unending campaign cycle that we are subject to. You also give Sarah Palin far too much credit, she's influential, but not "hugely influential". Reasonable people that actually listen to her (and there are reasonable Republicans), tend to form opinions that are not flattering to her. Your focus on Hannity and Limbaugh as opinion makers gives me pause, do you actually think that they influence more than the 10% or so of the electorate that makes up the extreme right? If that premise is true, should I think that Rachel Maddow, and Keith Olberman are highly influential to more than the 10% or so of the electorate that makes up the extreme left? Weak willed people will be swayed by folks like Hannity, Limbaugh, Maddow and Olberman, reasonable people will make up their own minds, regardless of party affiliation.

To call Palin a 'private citizen' is really quite the misnomer, remember, she is the one who bailed on her Governorship so she could make millions selling herself. Nothing private about her at all especially since she injects herself into the public spotlight for personal greed. She is nothing more than an empty dress, rabble rousing, hate filled quitter that cannot even figure out what most 5th graders know about our Government and how it is supposed to work. Equating her with President Obama is just plain ludicrous as Pres. Obama is working to make a difference for the citizens of this Nation while Palin is just trying to make a buck with her divisive, hate filled, idiotic rhetoric. There is a HUGE difference there and America is not fooled by it!!

Living in LA:

Yes, I do think that folks like Limbaugh and Hannity hold sway over more than 10% of those on the right. I would place that number closer to 20% +. And that is a huge number when it comes to determining a Presidential primairy or general election. Regarding Palin, I'm afraid you give her too litttle credit as to the influence she will have over the 2012 republican primary. I would bet that whoever those nominees are (if not Palin) they are going to be seeking Palin out to campaign and stump for them.

I can't even guess the amount of influence that Maddow and Olbermann have over those on the left. Their audience numbers (combined) do not come close to those (combined) numbers enjoyed by folks like Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly.

I may by all wet Living but my opinion tells me that those people you call "reasonable" and who are not swayed by the media pundits (left or right) are in the minority.

But most importantly what I have seen in response to my original post on this issue (with the exception of Paul from Florida) have not been any suggestions or ideas as to a legiitmate Republican contender and why, but rather once again more buts this, or buts thats, or why Obama is losing support among certain groups, and no offering up of a legitimate favorable republican candidate and their ideas for this country for people to consider. In other words what most folks who have responded to my original comments have done is simply proven what it is I stated. Their comments and concerns sourround Obama and why he will or will not enjoy support among certain groups. There has been no offering up of an alternative from the right and the reasons why such an alretnative would be better.

B Honest,

You're making the same point I am, she's not equivalent in stature to President Obama, which then begs the question, "Why is the left so focused on her?" Yes, she injects herself into public policy debate, which by the way, is the right of every citizen. Yes, she is making a ton of money for her opinions, and her self promotion, but why is this of any interest to the folks on the left? If you truly don't care for her, (and I don't either) turn her off, and tune her out.

Living in LA:

Cripe Living. You cannnot possibly ignore or not recognize the amount of influence Pailin has over many on the right, private citizen or not. Sure, we can ignore her, but I'm telling you that this woman will have sway, and powerful sway, over 20%+ of the electorate come 2012. Just because the majority think she is an idiot does not mean that there does not exist an influential number that support and listen to her. Open your eyes Living or visit some of these southern states and talk to folks about Palin. Then you'll know the influence she truly has.

Great post, CA.

Larry, were you afraid for your country when Bush/Cheney were elected? Look where they took us. Please tell us what the republican party has done for the middle class, for you and for this country. It is not Pres Obama who spent the country into oblivion, it was the republican party. THEY took us down this road just as they did when Reagan and Bush 41 were in charge. The GOP can tell us how they "made a mistake in spending" but their history shows it was deliberate. Just once, put aside your ideology and look at the facts. The democrats are not perfect, they make mistakes, and sometimes they move too far left just as the GOP moves to far right BUT they believe in fairness, not socialism, fairness for every American regardless of ethnicity, gender, religion or wealth. They believe every American should have the opportunity for education, a home, a living wage, good health. What exactly is socialist about that? Candadians live on average 5 years longer than we do--could it be that universal, single payer health care takes care of every citizen--it is NOT FREE health care, they pay premiums just as most of us do, they just do not pay them to a FOR PROFIT business. That's not socialism, that is a nation that cares about its people.

Ca,

Even if the number is as high as 20%, those are people that are on the right/far right, can't say that I think you'll find many on the left that would be influenced by Palin (other than negatively). If the electorate is 30% Republican, 30% Democrat, and the balance Independents, she's done nothing other than fire up the base, and the base is not what elects a president, it's the independents, and as was the case for President Obama, the crossover vote, that generally determines who will be president. You should be more worried about who on the left is going to be the catalyst for your base (I'm assuming that you're left of center). Giving Palin the role of "kingmaker" is not only unlikely, it's most likely a case of Republicans doing a disservice to themselves, she is a polarizing figure, and she will drive away the independents/moderates of both parties.

Living in LA:

Forget the general election. Palin is going to have a strong influence on the Republican primary results that could have a strong impact as to whether the Republicans have a chance against Obama in the general. You're failing to recognize or acknowledge that a 20% influential factor can be a deciding factor in the primary which in turn can have a direct bearing on the results of a general election.

And Obama bashes Bush. Who's he afraid of?

I don't post all that often but i have read a lot about the right wing on this sight and i just had to add my two cents. The right has some valid points and i find my self agreeing with them sometimes But even when i agree with there point i find that it is for a different reason,i have a problem with heath care reform,the right seems to be against it becausethey don't think people that can not afford it don't deserve it but i have a problem with it because as written i don't think it is going to work as well as it could.And that is were my problem with right lies if they were doing the job that they were elected to do they would sat down with the dems and tried to make this thing work instead they spent all there time trying to make it as bad as they could.You hadsome who claimed to be trying but as soon as the dems caved and gave them something they wanted they would walk .The dems caved time after time and still they would not do there jobs and help with bill.I heard one say "we our willing to work with you If you throw out everything and start over " and then he offered his plan which when look at would do very little to help most people and would do alot to help ins companies.It seems that all the right wants is get every thing they want with no compromise.That is not how you get good policies.

Please provide proof for this statement that you made:

"But according to Barack Hussien Obama and the regime we dont need to close the borders....no... not at all..."

Thanks.

Larry,

If my tax dollar were used to help birth a baby, I don't really care who that childs mom and dad are.

I just hope that child is healthy and I wish it a happy life and I welcome another AMERICAN into our fold.

Please explain then how Pres Obama is not enforcing the border and immigration laws when he has quadrupled the number of deportations and crack downs on employers who hire illegals.

I heard the number 1 in 12 but it was 1 in 12 born to at least one parent who is illegal. It was not both parents were illegals. Maybe that is splitting hairs but it points out that illegals are not crossing the border just to have babies; they are marrying citizens or legal immigrants.

But back on topic.... when will we as a country wake up and realize we cant continue to let people come here illegally and just look the other way when they are a big part ofthe reason this country is in the financial mess were currently in?

Larry - it seems to me that you are conflating two completely separate issues with your ideaology. Look, we understand that you do not like President Obama. We get it. But you are doing the SAME THING that the GOPers are doing when you are going on and on about illegal immigrants.

You are arguing about something that is a DROP IN THE BUCKET when it is compared to the WASTEFUL Defense spending that even the Secretary of Defense is trying to eliminate.

What we are NOT hearing from you is your acknowledgement of the financial hole that was dug by WHOMEVER was in power for the past 30 years.

We have a financial crisis, no doubt about it. But that crisis was made because we DID NOT have ANY controls on the people who had access or were responsible for our monetary policies. We did NOT invest in America when it needed it. We did allow Wall Street to gamble with our monies, though.

So, Larry, what about that? You want to lay the BLAME of our inability to control ourselves when it comes to spending on the illegal immigrant that has no power and no say in how that money is spent? Why are you not INCENSED about what Wall Street did with Main Street's money? Why are you not INCENSED that we are spending 15 BILLION a MONTH in Iraq and Afghanistan?

As with any type of spending, sometimes we will have to spend some money to STABILISE the current financial environment BEFORE we start deciding what to cut. We need to get everyone back to work. We need to strengthen our infrstructure. We need to strengthen our schools and make a HUGE investment in learning. We need to make a HUGE investment in clean energy, so we are not spending 1 BILLION dollars a month financing people who have the oil but hate our guts. We need to make a HUGE investment in our transportation infrastructure with high-speed rail that will bring jobs to countless MILLIONS.

Once everything is stabilised, Larry, then I can support your position. I cannot do that when we are NOT stabilised financially. And for all of you that are worried about the spending this President is doing, consider this - this spending is on US for once. Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. Not Israel. Not Pakistan.

US. Americans. You and me.

So, Larry, if you can get your head around the spending that we need to stabilise this country, then we can entertain your position about illegal immigrants.

Not before.

Well maybe he would get more done if the rep. would do some thing beside filibuster everything,Plus he can not do it all by himself he needs to get help from dems & rep.and they as a group don't seem to be in any hoary being election year.Having said that i have heard that his plan and he needs support, is to go after the people and company that hire illegals and fine them, right now the fines for this are not high enough to stop them.These people hire them because they work cheap if you make the fines bigger then they won't hirer them as most illegals come here for work and if there is no work most will go home and that would make it easy-er to find and deport the rest.They have arrested more illegals using this method then Bush,Clinton,or Raegon and it is cheaper then the 200-300 BILLION estimated cost of just running around and grabbing every body that looks Mexican and kicking them out.

Seriously, why does anyone bother responding to this guy (Larry D.)? He just makes things up!

He's obviously a paid hack and/or an ignorant fool.

Petraeus? I thought that was an IRAQI general who made that recommendation!

He was the CENTCOM Commander...................why do you think it's a lost cause? geezzz.

Paul-Florida

He was the CENTCOM Commander...................why do you think it's a lost cause? geezzz

Auntie Fascist is correct

That is my point about trolls who don’t Research the facts. Which makes it impossible to be objective with the truth? Ironically, trolls come to MSNBC and don't even read the news correctly.

Here is the comment from the Iraq's military commander, Gen. Babaker Shawkat Zebari

The commander of Iraq's military is calling for U.S. forces to stay in the country for another decade, reinforcing his stance that his country's military won't be able to secure the nation on their own after U.S. troops leave.

"At this point, the withdrawal is going well, because they are still here, but the problem will start after 2011," Gen. Babaker Shawkat Zebari said at a defense conference in Baghdad, according to the BBC.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38670873/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Yes beverly, she is correct........................I thought Auntie was referring to Petreaus as the Commander of US Forces in Iraq. My bad.........

As for the Iraqi General, it doesn't supprise me one bit. I was there last year during the pull out on June 30th. They want their country back, but some won't fight for it.

Sam, since you want to lump all Republicans into one group, let's let you represent the Democrats. And, if when you open your mouth, all you can do is call names, then when all Democrats speak they speak nothing but ignorance.

Sam, since you want to lump all Republicans into one group, let's let you represent the Democrats. And, if when you open your mouth, all you can do is call names, then when all Democrats speak they speak nothing but ignorance.

Dottie:

Not to be concerned with Ed Schultz or others on the extreme left who are criticizing Obama for not being as liberal or as progressive as they would like. When it comes down to voting in 2012 do you really think that folks on the far left like Ed are really going to suppot and vote for a Republican candidate versus Obama? Not a chance. Their criticisms are their attempts to get Obama to lean a bit more left and to their liking, but as far as supporting Obama for a second term they'll support and vote for the man when the time comes. .

Touche CA Ed and the other far left progressives are just trying to yell louder than the teabaggers.

CA

I think you are right that the far left Democrats will be there for President Obama when the time comes. In my neck of the woods it is the moderate Democrats that are junping ship. For example one lifetime Democrat in my family gave up when Food stamps were cut for the No name Bill for the Unions. It is only good for one year and then what? We will be right back where we were only deeper in debt. Why didn't we use the stimulus money that remains?

Right or left, the pundits can dish out criticism but get there noses out of joint when some comes back at them. They'll get over it and return to discussing the issues and not their noses.

LOL!! Their noses out of joint... I haven't heard that one before I'll have to remember it.

I guest i missed something what was this no name bill for the unions.

Dear Tuscaloosa,

Your reference to moderate populists like Big Ed as "extreme left" would be laughable, except for one thing: You surely would have used the same term to describe other democratic populists like Bernie Sanders and Al Franken just a few years ago. Now you can call them United States senators. In the not distant future, you may be able to call Ed, Senator Schultz of North Dakota. You need to get behind populists, whether of the right or left, as we are the future, after we overthrow the dictatorial Demopublican duopoly.