From yesterday:

Good Morning Leon – I hope you are feeling better this morning!

It is indeed a ‘small’ world! – I was reading some of the reply’s to your comments about teachers and THANK YOU for pointing out the TRUTH!

Some people live in the land of oblivion and NO amount of truth is going to make them move into the land of the educated…

My daughter didn't choose teaching as her profession for the fame & fortune that comes with it! lol

Teachers educate because of their passion for making a difference in the lives of their students, and the satisfaction that comes along with that is MORE rewarding than unlimited wealth could ever be!

I'm sure you would be ok with a Museum Of The Confederacy being built next door to the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birminghman, AL then? I doubt it.

It's an issue of common sense and decency. Basically, the muslims got a lot of damn nerve wanting to put that thing there. Put it somewhere else in NYC. Or...maybe when Islam finally PROVES to the rest of us that they are, in fact, a RELIGION of peace, they can build it next to Ground Zero.

For 9 years now we have been hearing about what a great, peaceful religion Islam is. Where are the Islamic MLKs? Where have you ever seen a Peace March with thousands of Muslims marching? Why not build a museum of German History next to the Holacaust Museum?

Jody, spot on! I have had these very sentiments and I recall Colin Powell's Meet the Press interview right before the election. It was clear to most that Mr. Powell felt his party was leaving him. When he walks through Arlington Cemetery, he notices the diversity of religious symbols on the headstones. And he wonders, "Why couldn't a Muslim American be President? What is wrong with those he say otherwise?"

CUFarley, and what exactly could you POSSIBLY know about common sense and decency? Really? You've countered that point extensively on this board for months now.

LIONESS 50:

Your first post did not go unnoticed and it was excellent! Far better than my first post written 2 or 3 years ago. You have some very important things to say so post early and often. Welcome to FR.

Hat-tip to Rick, Ky

Jody-the problem with your entire premise is that the council that decided that the mosque should be built DID NOT listen to the voices raised against this. They made their own, politically correct decision-typical liberal politicians.

Some years ago, an order of Catholic nuns planned to build a convent within sight of Auschwitz, for the specific purpose of praying for the souls of those who died there, and for divine intervention to prevent such horrors from ever occurring again. There was much hue and cry from Jews all over the world-the convent was not built-this was the right decision.

The sensitivities of those impacted by horrific events MUST be taken into consideration when such proposals are made-they trump political correctness each and every time.

As someone who lost four friends on that day, I consider it the height of arrogance on the part of the city council to tell me that I must accept their view, and that mine is inconsequential.

Jody, Iowa: Robert Gibbs replied to White House press corps questions regarding the administration's opinion on the mosque by saying--the decision belongs to the people of New York City. That's right. It does belong to New Yorkers. None of our opinions matter and that includes the opinions of Gingrich and Palin.

The decision has been made by New Yorkers who listened to New Yorkers. Mayor Bloomberg spoke eloquently about why the decision was the right one. Democracy, the Constitution and freedom of religion were the victors.

So Jody, what New York construction company, or New Jersey company for that matter, will lay one brick down to build that mosque? The answer of course is there is not one that will do so. You see Jody, just like with gay marriage issue in California, just like illegal immigrants in Arizona, just like oil drilling in the Gulf, it's the people that ultimately decide what will and what will not be done. The voters and people have spoken on these issues, and they are overwhelming against that mosque at Ground Zero, against gay marriage, and against allowing illegals into the country, and are for drilling for oil. No matter what a couple of so called leaders or judges say, the people get the last word. So as Americans, what happens in New York, California, Louisiana, Arizona, and everywhere else in the country is our business and we have right to express our opinions about what happens in these states.

Jody Iowa wrote-

Robert Gibbs replied to White House press corps questions regarding the administration's opinion on the mosque by saying--the decision belongs to the people of New York City. That's right. It does belong to New Yorkers. None of our opinions matter and that includes the opinions of Gingrich and Palin.

Well, the people of California don't want gay marriage. Does that matter to you?

Jody:

Excellent post!! As Clara said, Spot-on and very well said.

CU Farley. President Bush stated that we are not at war with Islam, that Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked by radical elements within it. There are radicals in every religion from Christianity (those who murder doctors for their personal beliefs, those who are intolerant to Jews and other religions) to Muslim. Your view is that everyone within those regligions should be painted with the same brush--all are radicals because some are.

In the United States of America, we don't put religious freedom to a vote.

This country was founded by immigrants seeking religious freedom.

It is fun to discuss, but anyone of any religion should be able to practice as they see fit without having to have the "approval" of folks who don't share their beliefs.

Of course, there are gray areas, especially if the religious practices go against secular laws.

But community "discomfort" is not a gray area.

America must have the strength to stand behind her ideals, even when it is not easy, or be willing to admit that the idea of America is a failed one.

You can't change the rules everytime they make you feel "uncomfortable".

Jody, Iowa: Democracy, the Constitution and freedom of religion were the victors.

CU Farley: Well the people of California don't want gay marriage. Does that matter to you?

To the Liberals, 1 judge trumps 7 million voters. And to them that's Democracy. I'm certain those 7 million voters in California feel disenfranchised today. Those voters will likely be very motivated to vote this fall to work to overturn the tyranny of the minority. And not just in California, but in Arizona, Louisiana, and New York also. Maybe it's time for a few town halls in those states to discuss the issues with the elected representatives and judges that are making these decisions.

The Cordoba House is not to be built at Ground Zero. It is to be built on Park Place, two blocks away from Ground Zero. Ground Zero cannot be seen from that location.

Furthermore, the Cordoba House is not a "single-purpose house of worship" - or "mosque." It is designed as "a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

If we're going to debate this issue, we ought to at least speak about what it is, and is not, truthfully.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-sledge/just-how-far-is-the-groun_b_660585.html

Great post, Jody. Let's see how the First Amendment to the Constitution gets twisted into a pretzel today by our conservative friends.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

You're right Jody. And not all Japanese weree "bad" like those that bombed Pearl Harbor. And not ALL Germans were bad like the ones that killed millions and started WWII.

I'll give you a million $$ if you can show me a worldwide Christian movement with millions of followers that has stated they will kill all people who belong to a different religion and do so at the urging of their clerics and clergy.

@Joanna:

1 judge trumped the voters in favor of Prop 8 because Prop 8 is unconstitutional. The idea that civil rights should ever be put up to a vote is frightening. I wonder what would happen if every single right that people have were put up to a vote.

And as for the Cordoba House, then they'll hire someone outside of the NY/NJ area to build it. I image it wouldn't be that difficult, considering that the economy's still struggling to put itself back together.

SeanDoonan: And as for the Cordoba House, then they'll hire someone outside of the NY/NJ area to build it. I image it wouldn't be that difficult, considering that the economy's still struggling to put itself back together.

Sure. And those NY/NJ workers will let those out of region construction companies just roll into Manhattan and set up shop. You really don't understand NYC very well, do you?

CU Farley and no joe,

Some light reading for you...

http://www.slate.com/id/2262495/?GT1=38001

All the arguments as to why the community center/mosque should be blocked are based on pure emotion. They aren't rational arguments and they have no legal basis.

Do you even know what the Cordoba Initiative is? CU Farley, you ask where the Muslim MLKs are...did you consider you may have one trying to build the community center/mosque but you won't give him the time of day?

And, no joe, before you even think of going there, I lost 3 friends on 9/11...one at the WTC and two on Flight 93 and could have lost another friend and two members of my own family. I see no reason to block the center. I'm over it...isn't about time you got over it, too?

"I'll give you a million $$ if you can show me a worldwide Christian movement with millions of followers that has stated they will kill all people who belong to a different religion and do so at the urging of their clerics and clergy."

The history books refer to them as "The Crusades".

I'll take a check, please.

da noid-you're OVER IT?!?

How the hell do you get over losing people in the prime of their lives-innocent victims of some lunatic's agenda?

you are either a liar or the most heartless, selfish person in creation.

As to the mosque-there is no difference whatsoever between this mosque and the proposed convent-the single exception being that the Catholic Church saw that its construction would cause grief for people it did not mean to offend, and the builders of this proposed Cordoba House, and the city council that supports them, have no care at all about the overwhelming opposition to this construction.

JoAnna -

As the father of a gay daughter I celebrate the overturning of Prob 8 in California. Prob 8 was sham against the people of California. Sponsored by the religious fanatic right wing nuts, especially the Mormon Church (where multiple wives are just ok with them) who lied to the people that they were going to teach homosexuality and same sex marriage to children in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. An absolute lie. By time the truth came out it was after the election. As it was it only passed with 52%.

no joe,

There will be no United States of America if we constantly sink to the level of our enemies by suspending the rule of law whenever it is convenient.

That is exactly what our enemies want - to show the world that America is nothing special.

I for one will not give lunatics the pleasure of controlling my life - whether they are Muslim lunatics or Christian lunatics or anywhere in between.

Enough of the foolishness . . . we are a nation of laws and rights, and we are going to follow them . . . even if it is hard.

Because that is what America is . . . something bigger than any of us individually.

DaNoid,

Let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition either. I have a Paypal account CUFarly,...so I'll be waiting.

CU,

Did you ever do any reading about the Spanish Inquisition?? Or how about the Conquistadors in South America?? Christianity displacing all of the 'Pagan' religions in Europe?? Catholicism was for a very long time determined to make itself THE Religion Everywhere and killed millions of innocent people who would deny it. The Crusades are another example of Catholicism trying to eradicate other religions and Islam came about in part because of that. Christianity does NOT have a very nice history when you get right down to basics. Oh, you folks like to preach, but a LOT of it, even still, is based on bigotry, hate and domination instead of the Love and Tolerance that CHRIST actually taught. You folks are a LONG way from the Ideals that HE set down and have gone off on your own way.

May God in Her Infinite Glory have mercy on your souls!

I will take that $1M check now please

Don't forget Timothy McVey. Are there any Christian churches in downtown Oklahoma City?

CU,

The very basis of Christianity is the belief that it is the one true religion and all others should be destroyed. You and Joanna need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a logical argument.

A majority ruling cannot infringe on minority rights.

Not to mention, it was the so-called religious people who goaded and cheered on the crucifixion of the author and perfecter of the Christian faith - Jesus Christ himself.

No religion is exempt from this type of hypocrisy, so that is a false argument.

Dan Austin, Tx

CU,

The very basis of Christianity is the belief that it is the one true religion and all others should be destroyed. You and Joanna need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a logical argument.

Well, I sure missed this belief in my religious study classes. Haven't heard this one before, and Christians must not be very good at it, or else they are very quiet about going about it.

The other explanation is that you have your head up your backside. That one seems more likely.

Nashville_fan

In the United States of America, we don't put religious freedom to a vote.

This country was founded by immigrants seeking religious freedom

And how exactly is anyones religious freedom impeded by not building a mosque at Ground Zero? What if they built it in Queens, or Harlem?

Farley your mixing apples with oranges, every example you gave were not about religus freedom they were about different groups.

i understand where your coming from. your feel that the terrorist who killed 3000 are going to rejoice in the mosque at ground zero. i had my questions as well, but i had to remember why people came here in the very beginning, they wanted religoius freedom. this is what seperated us from england. being free the pratice your religon with our persicution.

I'm sure you would be ok with a Museum Of The Confederacy being built next door to the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birminghman, AL then? I doubt it.

see this statement is compairing apples with oranges, yes it would offend me, the confederacy is not a religus group. but if they own the land next to the 16th street baptis church then there is not much i could do about it right.

For 9 years now we have been hearing about what a great, peaceful religion Islam is. Where are the Islamic MLKs? Where have you ever seen a Peace March with thousands of Muslims marching? Why not build a museum of German History next to the Holacaust Museum?

Farley, Islamic MLKs LOL, LOL. i did not know that Martin Luther King was a religon, now matin Luther founded the lutheran church. so i guess you should be asking about the islamic MLs. but again i know what your trying to say.

sorry farley as long as we have religous freedom this is nothen you or i can do about a mosque at ground zero.

"Well, I sure missed this belief in my religious study classes. Haven't heard this one before, and Christians must not be very good at it, or else they are very quiet about going about it."

This just proves how F@#$ing stupid you are. All religions are completely intolerant of each other because they falsely believe in their own superiority.

The problem Joanna is that you have never really had a thought of your own and I highly doubt you have ever spent quality time in a classroom. Your constant blatant ignorance is offensive and all you really have to offer is snide remarks that amount to immature squabbling from children.

Maybe you should really try to educate yourself.

"And how exactly is anyones religious freedom impeded by not building a mosque at Ground Zero? What if they built it in Queens, or Harlem?" - JoAnna

Some folks are always asking questions, never providing answers.

Anywho.

What if they built it where they want to build it? How is that impending on anyone's freedom? The folks building this center are not the folks who planned 9-11, so what is the problem?

JoAnna,

The reason that you do not hear about it from the churches is because they are rightfully ASHAMED of that period of history. Christianity under Catholicism made such a bad name for itself that the Lutheran Church split off from it as well as the Protestant Church of England, although that was in part because the King of England wanted a divorce, which the Catholic Church would not do. There are so many sects of Christianity because of the shame that the Catholics brought down on Christianity and all of those wars, crusades, Pope Sponsored invasions, Missionary movements etc. gave the world a very bad taste of Christianity and so they much prefer to keep that part of history buried. We still see a lot of that hatred for others inherent in so many so called 'Christian' sects and it is displayed plainly here, by you for one, and CU, Larry and Bob!

What if they built it where they want to build it? How is that impending on anyone's freedom? The folks building this center are not the folks who planned 9-11, so what is the problem?

It's not about freedom NF. It's about people sensitivities on the issue. It was terrorists that happened to all be Islamic fanatics that attacked that area of NYC. So other then to rub into the faces of the victims of that area, at Ground Zero, what exactly is the point of building a mosque there? You really need to understand that that ground is sacred, and that it is insensitive for the very religion that says it's peaceful, but has been hijacked by it's extreme element, to build at that site. You and other liberals will just never understand what kind of a scar those terrorists made on this country on that day. Some other poster daud he's "over it". Well good for him, but most of the people of the country aren't, nor should they be.

And Dan, do realize how stupid you look trying to make it sound like all religions are intolerant of each other? I thought not. Don't know if you are young or old, but you certainly are stupid.

Individual Rights have never been determined by voters but rather by lawmakers based on the Constitution. If voters could decide rights, the South would still be segregated.

I see many negative responses which is to be expected it is an emotional issue but reading them I see exactly what my last paragraph referred to. I stand by my comment. New York City did listen to those with objections but the objections have no basis in law, the objections are based on emotions. Contractors will build it because workers like paychecks and companies need business. If we are indeed a Nation which values our Constitution, then we are a people that values every part of it--not just the part that meets our personal, emotional views. What troubles me is the ease with which people willingly deny others rights based on their personal view. Whether it is the mosque or gay marriage, one group should not have greater freedom or rights than any other. The laws of this country are what makes us great. The terrorists win whenever emotions trump freedoms, stomps on the Constitution and limits the rights of some. We are either of Nation with religious freedom and individual rights or we are not. I believe we are one which values the freedoms and rights of everyone.

Seems like I remember 5 judges overturning the Will of the people back in 2000. Thats the reason, we have this Nonsense about a mosque being built on Hallowed ground. Chicken George did'nt do his Job, that 5 judges bestowed upon him.

If it was hallowed ground as some say, then why 9 years later, have'nt 2 even taller buildings sitting there. because it's Not hallowed ground, it's a peice of real estate, just like your Home is.

JoAnnaboBanaFeeFiFofanna-Bana, are You Really That dumb?

Oh Joanna your conjecture is really fun but, as stated previously, you really do have the mind of a child. Come back when you have more to offer than a personal insult. As a side note, being considered stupid by a person of your caliber feels like a compliment.

As Jody has stated as well as many others, the people of New York have spoken and all the faux outrage involving sensitivity is moot. I think that the people of New York have more important issues to deal with, like the denial of adequate medical assistance to those who risked their lives on 9/11.

JoAnna,

I am temporarily un-dismissing you based on your decision to provide a direct answer to a direct question.

But I must immediately reinstate that dismissal based on this comment:

"You and other liberals will just never understand what kind of a scar those terrorists made on this country on that day."

This is the kind of "real Americans" BS that really ticks me off . . . who exactly are you to think that only YOU were impacted by the HORRORS of 9-11?

What an arrogant and assinine thing to say.

America is an idea . . . not tall buildings. The only way that terrorists can defeat us is if we alter the idea of America based on fear of what they might do.

I for one will not let that happen. I will not let irrational fear rule this country, no matter how emotional you or anyone else gets.

If you cannot make a case for not building the Muslim Cultural Center using the laws of this land, then it should be built, because that is how we do things in AMERICA.

We do not cower in fear - we stand up and face those who would tell us that a multicultural and multireligious society cannot exist on the Earth.

It can and it will, and no religious center will change that, Muslim or otherwise.

When you are able to have a rational discussion based on reality and not your "sensitivities" and belief that you are "more American" than "libruls", perhaps we can discuss our differences.

But until that time, again I must say, you are dismissed.

"It's not about freedom NF. It's about people sensitivities on the issue."

Where's the sensitivity to Muslims who are working to make sure that theirs is a religion of peace, like the Cordoba Initiative which seeks to build this multiuse structure? Where is the sensitivity for members of the Islamic community who were innocent victims of 9/11? As far as your thoughts as to a place of Buddhist worhip next to Pearl Harbor there are SEVERAL http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=buddhist%2Bhonolulu&fb=1&gl=us&hq=buddhist&hnear=Honolulu,+HI&ei=4OJaTIjoFIL-8AbevOS5Ag&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQtgMwAA .

You don't get to live in the world where you get to be the sole arbiters of what offends and what doesn't. We all live with some things that offend us, but are within the rights of others. Deal with it.

Dang Nash, you're sounding like a Drill Sgt. that i've seen on 1st Read, dismissing this & that.

BTW, NOJOALLBLOW, it seem's as tho Chicken George got over it pretty quick himself.

He Invaded a Soverign country, that was his way of Forgetting!

Also, yall rightwinger's seem to have gotten over the fact of almost Destoring America pretty quick. However, us NotSoReal American's have'nt. We don't forget things like that!

You Betcha!

Here is a nice little 'twofer' to highlight JoAnna's ignorance with her own professed religion:

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs059/1102236947388/archive/1102755244999.html

prosthelytizing is INDEED a tenet of Christianity. I would imagine a 'REAL' Christian would know that.

Matthew 28:19 (New International Version)

¹⁹Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in^[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

I sure am glad REAL Americans decided to separate church and state early on. Talk about progressive forward thinkers!

Excuse me but CU Farley's comment: " I'm sure you would be ok with a Museum Of The Confederacy being built next door to the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birminghman, AL then? I doubt it." Shows his complete lack of basic understanding.

1. It doesn't matter whether I'm OK, queasy or upset about certain issues. I believed the KKK marching in Skokie should not have been allowed, however I was fairly young and was not looking at the full picture. Yes the sick racist KKK marchers were contemptibleto act in that manner, but we as a country often have to allow speech that is offensive, and specifically intended to inflame and hurt, because to restrict it is the beginning of a line that we can't draw. So whether one would prefer the center be 2 blocks or further from ground zero isn't the issue, the issue is do we want to ignore our constitution, and start drawing distinctions that so severely gut the strength of our constitution and nation that before long we no longer are the country our forefathers envisioned?

2. The Islamic faith did not attack us on September 11th. Are there sick terrorist that have distorted the Islamic faith to carry out terrorism? Of course. But it is no more wrong to condemn all priest for what a few (in % of all Priests) sick Priests have done. In my Iowa home town is the nation's Mother Mosque, which is the oldest mosque in North America, and also the first exclusively Muslim cemetery in North America. Most of the Muslim's in my town are 3rd and 4th generation. They are as patriotic, and as much a positive part of our fabric, as any other ethnic group. Yes the people who attacked the US (an attack on one or more US city is an attack on the country as a whole) were Muslim, and they were terrorist, BUT that does not mean that the religious faith is a terrorist faith, or that all adherents to Islam are terrorist, let alone deficient in any manner!

There is no basis for opposition to this center. People who argue that you can't build a Christian church in Saudi Arabia are airing their ignorance. So what, since when is the US model for tolerance any other country, let alone Saudi Arabia? We have a constitution, it provides freedom of religion, Saudi Arabia doesn't, that argument is not worthy of anyone over 10, and yet it has been repeated ad nausea on the right. The Islamic faith is many centuries old. People of the Islamic faith have lived in the United States longer than the creation of the Mormon faith (the religion of Mitt Romney, one of many to politicize the NYC mosque), and far longer than the creation of Scientology. Whether someone thinks it's a false religion, and only their own religion is correct, is an opinion they are entitled to, but the adherents of the Islamic faith have the same constitutional protections that are other religious faiths have. It is not denigrating the victims of 9-11 to follow the constitutional, what denigrates the victims, is to violate the constitution due to prejudice and bigotry in their name!

CU, The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in DC is a museum of German History.

JoAnna, The Liberal judge who overturned Prop 8 and the judge in Arizona who ruled against that state's immigration law based their rulings on the Constitution not on their personal opinion. Activist Judges? Get a grip!

Something different. (Especially in consideration of what is happening in Europe and elsewhere.)

Why build it there?

Can the argument be made that the attacks on 9/11 were symbolic?

The World Trade Center symbolized American exceptionalism and wealth, the Pentagon, American military strength and the Capital, symbol of our government - the target of the ill-fated flight. All special, unique symbols of America.

In destroying the World Trade Centers and building a 13 story Mosque, have the Muslims destroyed a symbol of American exceptionalism/greatness and are attempting to replace it with a symbol of Muslim exceptionalism/greatness?

Just a thought, no need for anyone to wet themselves.

The World Trade Center symbolized American exceptionalism and wealth, the Pentagon, American military strength and the Capital, symbol of our government - the target of the ill-fated flight. All special, unique symbols of America.

In destroying the World Trade Centers and building a 13 story Mosque, have the Muslims destroyed a symbol of American exceptionalism/greatness and are attempting to replace it with a symbol of Muslim exceptionalism/greatness?

But, you see, here's the thing...they aren't building on the site of the World Trade Center. They're building two blocks away.

They aren't "replacing" a the World Trade Center. One World Trade Center (aka "Freedom Tower") is replacing the original Twin Towers.

If you think that a pair of buildings represent "American Exceptionalism" you are sadly mistaken.

Da Noid,

Technically, you are right.

So why are so many not as anal as you and upset?

There were Muslims killed on 9/11 and I don't mean the ones on the planes.

Not all Muslims are radicals any more than all Christians are radicals but both religions have their extremists.

Christians are taught forgiveness but when the chips are down how many follow the teachings of Jesus to forgive and to turn the other cheek? Are they truly Christians or hypocrites?

I doubt that Muslims like Kareem Abdul Jabbar or Muhammad Ali are plotting to overthrow our government but to listen to the haters one would think that merely because they believe in Islam that they are so inclined. Where I live we have several Muslim families who are refugees from the crap going on in the Middle East. They don't like it any more than we do. But that won't phase the haters. Those haters, most of whom have never met a Muslim and think they know ALL about Islam, the Koran, and Muslims, spout off about what they say is absolute truth. They just make themselves look foolish if not stupid.

I see many of you intentionally took my post out of the present tense and moved it 2,000 years into the past. Not surprising. I know about the Crusades and the Inquisition etc...In fact, many muslims do what you people did and use the Crusades as an example of oppression of muslims and therefore an excuse to comitt modern-day atrocities. Whatever. Try to keep the conversation somewhere in the vicinity of the last, I dunno, 30 years. If you all are always going to take the side of those against America, at least be honest.

And as for the clown that brought up the obligatory Tim McVeigh reference: he was not a Christian. He said science was his religion and that he believed in no God. Hmmm. That actually makes him closer in thought to many of you all on this board than to any Christians.

Adler,

Not all Muslims are radical. True.

Not all Americans soldiers at Ft. Hood being readied for deployment to Afghanistan are interested in fighting the Taliban. True.

I'm sure all the Taliban commanders are tweeting their men to not to worry about those American soldiers coming over based on what Nidal Hassan did. The Taliban commanders are telling them they have never met an American, know nothing about their religion, that they are foolish and stupid haters.

Sorry, Chuckles, but your exact words are as follows:

I'll give you a million $$ if you can show me a worldwide Christian movement with millions of followers that has stated they will kill all people who belong to a different religion and do so at the urging of their clerics and clergy.

You, sir, made no specifications regarding any time frame.

If you don't have the $1 million right now that's fine...I'm sure we can work out a payment plan...just don't make me send Knuckles O'Malley and Joey The Fish to break your kneecaps!

Joe in Albany

And, speaking of morons, did anyone see that 60’s retread black-radical Princeton professor on the Mr. Ed Show? I just about fell off my chair laughing when he started off with praising “Brother Ed, Brother Keith, and Sister Rachel”. Honestly, You couldn’t make this sh!t up if you tried!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello!!!!, Joe in Albany ONLY MORONS KNOW EACH OTHER; YOU HAVE PLENTY EXPERIENCE THERE.

From the WSJ:

Clinton Also Had 90% Job Approval Among Blacks

Obama's high ratings among black Americans are not unprecedented. Fellow Democrat Bill Clinton averaged 81% approval among blacks during his term in office, including 89% or 90% average approval in the last three years of his presidency.

However, the job approval gap between blacks and whites has become significantly larger in the Obama administration than it was in any year of the Clinton administration. Clinton received relatively low ratings among whites during his first years in office, but he also received ratings as low as 71%, on average, among blacks from 1995 to 1996. By contrast, Obama has consistently received much higher ratings among blacks even while his ratings among whites have been as low as or lower than those that Clinton received

However, the job approval gap between blacks and whites has become significantly larger in the Obama administration than it was in any year of the Clinton administration. Clinton received relatively low ratings among whites during his first years in office, but he also received ratings as low as 71%, on average, among blacks from 1995 to 1996. By contrast, Obama has consistently received much higher ratings among blacks even while his ratings among whites have been as low as or lower than those that Clinton received.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I'm soRry DR West is wrong, NO other President in my adult life has been more maligned either. dR. wEST NEEDS TO LOOK AT all PRESIDENTS BEFORE OBAMA. It's just true. MORE Blacks are unemployed and the president is fighting 4 unemployment &n jobs

Never in my adult life have I seen such disrepect and hatred for the highest office in the United States; since an African American arrived in the oval Office. Yes, call me a shrill for paronaid racial hypocries. the right winh nut started al this Walk on water, but the President is just a man who needs our support. As another great President said: Ask not what your country

We need to look into our hearts and souls; the President cannot legislate morality. But, we as Americans can.

"Hello, Joe in Albany ONLY MORONS KNOW EACH OTHER; YOU HAVE PLENTY EXPIRENCE THERE."

Gee, Bev, do you get the irony of the fact that your statement calling me a moron makes you, yourself, a moron by stating "YOU HAVE PLENTY EXPIRENCE THERE"???

I thought not.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe in Albany

Just to make sure you understand.

I'm sorry DR West is wrong, NO other President in my adult life has been more maligned either. DR. WEST NEEDS TO LOOK AT all PRESIDENTS BEFORE OBAMA. It's just true; MORE Blacks are unemployed and the president is fighting for unemployment for job creations. Kudo to Nancy For keeping the House over.

Never in my adult life have I seen such disrespect and hatred for the highest office in the United States; since an African American arrived in the oval Office. Yes, call me a shrill for paranoid racial hypocrisies. the right wing nut started all this Walk on water thing, but the President is just a man who needs our support. As another great President said: "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country".

Regarding pleading the 5th, you should employ it more often; then people wouldn't se how moronic you are.

We need to look into our hearts and souls; the President cannot legislate morality. But, we as Americans can.

Dr. West just like President Obama cares about Black people.

How right you are, IR. A lotta HotAir, signifying Nothing!Unless you have a HotAir ballon business.

BTW, is Rudy Guiliani'a Daughter outta Jail yet for Shoplifting? Oh, the Irony of it all!

You Betcha!

Rick,Ky: BTW, is Rudy Guiliani'a Daughter outta Jail yet for Shoplifting? Oh, the Irony of it all!

Ah, the "Dolt of the Day" goes to a multiple time winner, Rick in KY! You see Rick, you must not have kids, because if it's one thing kids do, it's that they screwup. No matter how well you think you parent a child, they will make mistakes. We can talk about Al Gores kid drunk driving all the way through to the Kennedy family, and now with the Guilani's family, kids screwup. Leave the kids/families alone Rick, it's really none of your business, and it's not a reflection on what political party of the family is in either. Kids screwup. Clear now?

And congrats on your mutliple wins for "Dolt of the Day".

You betcha!

Remember, the Repubs blocked a bill benefiting the first responders

I agree Dennis and would also like to welcome lioness50 . . . always looking for new perspectives and ideas. . . and thanks for your kind words . . . they were much appreciated and a pleasant surprise.

Lioness let me add a greeting from the Blue Ridge back porch and the Hill folk.Come see us as often as you can now you hear.

Lioness, more greetings of welcome from Iowa.

Welcome Lioness!

Not sure who ya are... but if my 'friends' give you their 'seal of approval' then so do I!

Feisty,

lioness50 posted her first post yesterday under the article about Sen. Reid getting 60 votes for the jobs bill.

Thanks Nash!

Yesterday afternoon here @ FR the 'gremlins' were working over time and I was having all sorts of technical difficulties! ;0)

Congrats on your engagement Eric. That smell you caught a wiff of this morning was...um...something else. Does your bf know you're still in middle school and that you support Islamic Terrorism and the leaking of documents that cause our troops to be killed? Speaking of leaking...go take a shower.

Hey Chuckey Doll - talking about taking a shower you'd better do that right quick after wee weeing all over yourself. As always you have to resort to childish lies about me to cover up your facist racist hatred of anyone not corrupt white conservative christian. Now get back to your kindergarden class little boy.

I’m so glad you recognize the truth. The reckless, unfunded spending between 2001 and 2006 IS how we got where we are.

Thanks for the truth.

Well I'm glad you recognize the economic safety net provided by Canada's socialist economic policies. Sweden, and their socialist economic system, also managed to escape the global recession relatively unscathed.

It's pretty rare when a teabagger touts the benefits of socialism on a public message board. Kudos to you, Joe.

ADP reported yesterday that private sector hiring was stronger in July than it was in June. I would expect unemployment and underemployment to hold at the current level (+/- 1 point) and an increase in private sector jobs for several months in a row.

So, you expect unemployment to be between 8.5 and 10.5%? (Currently 9.6%) and underemployment (18.6) to be somewhere between 18-20%? That's plus or minus 1 point.

did you mean 1/10 of 1%?

And do you read this as GOOD news?

Private employers added 42,000 jobs in July, which "shows continued weakness in the jobs market," said Gary Butler, chief executive of ADP, the nation's largest payroll service that puts out a monthly employment report based on actual payrolls.

"It is the sixth consecutive monthly gain. However, over those six months increases have averaged a modest 37,000 with no evidence of acceleration," added Joel Prakken, chairman of Macroeconomic Advisers LLC, which compiles the ADP report.Butler attributed the low jobs growth partly to "the uncertainty in the economy and general business climate. American businesses are on the cusp of recovery, but more effective incentives are needed to encourage business investment resulting in the creation of more jobs."Small (fewer than 50 employees) and mid-sized (50 to 499) companies added 21,000 jobs each, while large (500-plus) company staffing remained flat,

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/jobs-260609-adp-private.html

US jobless claims jump to highest level since April
(AFP) – 7 hours ago

WASHINGTON — New claims for US jobless benefits rose unexpectedly last week to the highest level since April, the government said Thursday, underscoring concerns unemployment could scuttle the economic recovery.

Initial claims climbed 4.1 percent to 479,000 in the week to July 31, the Labor Department said, baffling most analysts who had expected claims to fall to 455,000.

"The move higher was discouraging and reflects a recovery that is losing steam," said economist Andrew Gledhill at Moody's Economy.com.

The previous week's claims were revised up slightly to 460,000 from 457,000.

The four-week moving average for the jobless insurance claims, a less volatile indicator than the week-to-week figures, rose to 458,500 from the previous week's revised average of 453,250.

The latest data however showed a fall in the total number of Americans receiving unemployment benefits.

The number of insured unemployed during the week ending July 24 was 4.537 million, a decrease of 34,000 from the preceding week's revised level of 4.571 million.

The latest jobless weekly data came ahead of a key US government report Friday that most economists say is expected to show already high unemployment nudging up as firms remain reluctant to hire in large numbers.

They believe July saw non-farm payrolls fall by 87,000 and the unemployment rate edge up to 9.6 percent, raising more doubts about the fragile economy recovery.

Copyright © 2010 AFP. All rights reserved. More »

dangerfield,

Please don’t be childish. You know exactly what I meant. I didn’t say anything like it is great of even good news. Things aren’t getting any worse and they aren’t getting better fast enough.

I suppose you are one of the preachers of tax cuts for the wealthy will cure everything.

I have grown weary of comments like "don't be childish", as I am often baffled by the things I read here. What did you mean? What percentages are you touting Dennis, Columbus? What was the point of your post?

As to being able to decipher my opinions based on my ability to read and post the employment figures...wrong again, but it is par for the course to imply "you must be a right-winger" here to anyone who isn't all pom-poms and pollyanna about this administration.

The fact that things aren't getting better means that they ARE getting worse. Every month that we do not produce at least 150,000 new jobs we fall deeper into a hole.

This is the fringe, not the mainstream.

While you all argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I am here to say that angels don't exist.

I see you teabagging republicans are still thrilled when unemployment and the economy get worse, how utterly Unamerican of you. Idiots.

I see you teabagging republicans are still thrilled when unemployment and the economy get worse, how utterly Unamerican of you. Idiots

I see the moron leftwing loser crowd continues to celebrate failure.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

dangerfield,

Please don’t be childish. You know exactly what I meant. I didn’t say anything like it is great of even good news. Things aren’t getting any worse and they aren’t getting better fast enough

"Things aren't getting any worse". Wow. How things have changed in 20 short months. From this wonderful new post-party and post-racial President who made the country swoon with his vastly superior speeches on how the country, and the world, should be run to the benefit of everyone. For a man that made people believe we were capable of anything and everything, that we would prosper not only as a nation, but as a world.

And now the liberals have compromised it down to "Well, things are getting any worse".

And apparently you missed Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner saying unemployment will rise before it falls. One could call that "Getting worse".

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/treasury-secretary-timothy-geithner-unemployment/story?id=11308157

Frankly liberals, we Americans expect more.

JoAnna,

I see the Rightwing crowed continues to point blame without taking responsibility.

You shouldn’t use “moron” or dangerfield will have a hissy fit.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

JoAnna,

I see the Rightwing crowed continues to point blame without taking responsibility.

You shouldn’t use “moron” or dangerfieldwill have a hissy fit

The American people made the "Rightwing crowd" take responsibility. Both in 2006, and 2008. Obama and the Democrats thumped the Republicans real good, they (Obama/Democrats) said they had all the answers, but now it turns out that they didn't even understand the questions.

Now it's time for the Leftwing crowd to take responsibility. And the American people will take care of that again now too.

And the "moron" remark was not directed at all Leftwingers. Just the ones like Mo.

It's true, countries like Canada, Germany, and the Scandanavian nations didn't fall into the deregulatory trap that led to our current economic downturn. Thanks for bringing up that subject.

dangerfield,

150,000 jobs a month for 8 years is 14 million jobs that should have been created during the last administration but they created less than 3 million so this is a net loss of 11 million jobs. No wonder unemployment is so high and stubborn. Great !!

Ask a lefty liberal to add 2 and 2 and they will get 22 every time, and not have a clue as to how wrong they are. The same thing applies to the FR lefty liberal’s comments here and elsewhere on my post above.

Oh well, I guess I’ll just let tomorrow’s USDOL jobs report speak for itself. Remember, the economy needs to create 150,000 jobs a month just to absorb population growth. Anything less, is a net loss to the economy.

Paul at this point who did what to who is a moot point. What is done is done and will never be recovered. Our responsibily as a country is to make sure these folks are cared for for as long as it takes and to quit using them as pawns in somebodies political pipedreams.

I.R. your response betrays your bias, implanted by the traumatizing brainwash of 9/11, against an investigation. One does not preclude the other. I did not say that I didn't want to take care of the "heroes"; I want it understood who should PAY, PAY, PAY, for their care. We should not have to pay for the crimes of George Tenet, or Dick Cheney.

Paul no Bias simply human truth Ultimately If we want to claim these men and women and their virtues as our own then they are just that. Ours. If they are ours then just like my children I'm going to make sure that I do right by them whether Osama Bin Laden, Dick Cheney or Geogre Tenet harmed them. Do not allow the desire for fixing blame to obscure the responsibility that we have as one to the other for compasion to and for the victims. I'm going to depend on the Man upstairs to take care of the other three when they have their discusion with St.Peter or Mohammed.

What part of one not precluding the other did you miss?

We will pay the costs of the crimes up front. We the people, should be reimbursed for our having acted responsibly.

Why do you insist on being 'accessories after the fact' to mass murder? Your opposition to investigation makes you so.

Why do we ever have murder trials if it won't bring the victims back to life and "GOD" is going to ultimately punish the murderer anyway?

Should we just do away with the Justice system entirely and leave it up to your God?

Independent Redneck

Those weren't rhetorical questions, I expect you to be man enough to answer them.

Let me guess, you work in or around Quantico, and your affiliation with the military industrial complex has nothing to do with your disinterest in investigating the murders of 9/11?

Paul you’ll just have to pardon me a little there sport I had to step out for a while and you seem to have gotten a little impatient on me. Since the first set of questions don’t seem to bear any relationship to the point I was trying to make originally and subsequently I guess I’ll just let them pass and just let you go back and read with comprehension in mind. I think they are a pretty clear indication of where I’m coming from and most other folks don’t seem to have a problem with them.

As regards to the second set. No I don’t work anywhere close to Quantico and my only “affiliation” with the military industrial complex would be making sure that they had a place to take a dump and a roof over their head while they did it and a stall to hang the T.P. off of. As far as whether I’m man enough to do anything you’ll have to ask somebody else since I never went in much for fellows that had to brag about their prowess to prove it to themselves.

Now since I do pay attention to who posts here and the general tone of what they bring I guess I ought to let you know I have about as much time and inclination for helping you chase your general tendency to imagine some kind of worldwide “conspiracy” around this afternoon as I would in engaging in a hunt for President Obama’s birth certificate that some folks just keep insisting that they can’t find. Sorry but being an older fellow I find that I just can’t justify wasting what little time I have above ground in wild goose chases and snipe hunts.

I don't think that I misunderstood your points. I also don't expect you to do the investigation yourself. Your decision to "play dumb" on this subject and refusal to answer questions which could lazily be answered with one word each belies the original bias I accused you of.

Sure did take you a good while to come up with a way to be evasive.

If 9/11 is always going to a reference point in our history going forward, anyone who hasn't sold their soul to the structure behind it, will be required to have the fortitude to demand a complete understanding of the "event" which "changed everything".

Try again, Co-dependent Redneck.

I don't think that I misunderstood your points. I also don't expect you to do the investigation yourself. Your decision to "play dumb" on this subject and refusal to answer questions which could lazily be answered with one word each belies the original bias I accused you of.

Sure did take you a good while to come up with a way to be evasive.

If 9/11 is always going to a reference point in our history going forward, anyone, who hasn't sold their soul to the structure behind it, will be required to have the fortitude to demand a complete understanding of the "event" which "changed everything", before they can be expected to lose their liberties or pay the bills for anyone else's crimes or willful ignorance.

Try again, Co-dependent Redneck.

Paul, "They" have their eye on you and once the Republican's get back in the White House, "they" will be sending the black helicopter's to get you and make you face "their" justice.

Be afraid, be very, very afraid.

Joe

Nice to see that you are trying to read along.

I'm not paranoid. Wanting to have a complete investigation of 9/11 is hardly a sign of mental illness.

Now blind support for continued ignorance on the subject, which hides the criminality of Cheney and Tenet from public scrutiny, indicates a partisan acceptance for the "ends justifying the means". Accessories after the fact to mass mudrer, in my humble opinion.

Just goes to show ya--can we spell PARANOID, Joe?!?!?!? This is the engine that runs the Conservatives train. How sad.

I.R. in Va.

I asked you five questions to which any intellectually honest person would happily respond..................................................................................................care to re-join the human race?

Instead you give weather reports to GingerBread mama. C'mon Co-dependent Redneck, man up and answer the 5 questions. Then tell us that you think the "first" investigation of 9/11 was thorough, unhindered, and complete. Even the Steering Committee of widows to 9/11 were "men" enough to question the true intentions of Zelikow and the commissioners of omissions. Sadly, it appears, they will always have you out-manned.

lol Eric . . . I was actually thinking of voting for Haslam . . . the only Republican candidate not running as a tea party parrot or a Christian crusader . . . but you might have a better strategy! :o)

I agree. People like Gingrich and Palin provide radical terrorists more fuel to convince moderate Muslims that America is at war with Islam. It is beyond me how a smart guy like Gingrich can be so stupid, so incapable of connecting the dots; Palin just follows along because she thinks it sounds proAmerican.

Contrary to popular beliefs, many New Yorkers are against the mosque being built in this area, and it crosses party lines. I have spoken to family memebers who are Democrats and Independents and they are livid over this decision.

Second, I have been following similiar Muslims occupation across the globe, and there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Their intentions are always good, then imans all call for holy jidads.

I am trying very hard to be open-minded, but the evidence from England, Germany, France, the Netherlands, etc has been overwhelming. I am truly concern the extremists will see this as a victory and the next step in spreading Islam for worldwide domination (sentiments by many imans).

I wish Palin would stay out of this because her credibility causes too much deceiveness.

I'm sure there are many New Yorkers who are against the Islamic cultural center. Should it really be necessary to get the agreement of 8,000,000 people before allowing legal use of a private property? Isn't this the "taking" that conservatives always warn of?

"Their intentions are always good, then imans all call for holy jidads." Disproved right here http://www.cordobainitiative.org/ . Please, do try to be open minded. This is a group which is working very hard to combat the sort of hardened, violent Islam that you fear.

And yet the unmistakeable trend of opposition trending down over time. http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php

I agree, the GOP wants government out of their lives EXCEPT...

Cicero-it is not that I do not agree with you-I am also uncomfortable having a 'social agenda' dominating what should be a meat and potatoes discussion of jobs, taxes, and deficit reduction.

Unfortunately, this issue has again reared its ugly head-and NOT because some Republican committee somewhere decided to increase voter turn-out by putting the issue on a ballot where a race was deemed too close.

This was a federal judge-and unfortunately, there are many people who feel disempowered by an administration that forces its will on the electorate regardless of the opinions contrary to that agenda being most vociferously voiced in opposition.

Would I prefer the simple solution, that every couple who wanted a state sanctioned union be given that status for the purpose of taxes, benefits, and dissolution? Would I prefer that 'marriage' a religious term if there ever was one, be left to the churches-and that the states de-deputize clergy from performing civil duties? You bet I would.

Unfortunately, we are dealing with reality, not preferences. The issue is out there, and will have an effect on the election.

California's Prop 8 was driven by conservatives and republicans. The only people in Iowa demanding a vote on Iowa's Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage are republicans stoked by republican politicians.

Jody, You see? The left and right can agree on some things. The key is to search for those things, some things we will stand principled on, and I respect the opinions of others. The key is to understand that person and his/her argument. I'm a fellow Iowan as well.

No Joe, You are correct. Amongst the hardcore Republicans, those who attend meetings and such, yes it is a valid issue. Yet, I believe the right needs to moderate on the social issues. Americans don't want to be lectured on how to live from either side of the aisle. I won my precinct chairmanship, and ran opposed (a good sign), one person expressed concern about the social issues. So I need to take that into consideration when voting. Typically Americans want the freedom to live as they wish without harming others. That is the definition of liberty. Deep down inside people are moral people and want to do the right thing. Conscience is a heck of a thing. Many of the "Boomers", either intentionally or unintentionally, involved in anti-American activities in the 60's now realize their faults.

no joe,

Would I prefer the simple solution, that every couple who wanted a state sanctioned union be given that status for the purpose of taxes, benefits, and dissolution? Would I prefer that 'marriage' a religious term if there ever was one, be left to the churches-and that the states de-deputize clergy from performing civil duties? You bet I would.

Chicken Little just came by and was right!

Well put no joe.

I don't think this one is going to swing votes one way or the other. The Social Conservatives weren't going to vote Democratic and the people who are tolerant of gay marriage weren't going to vote Republican. The swing voters are mainly concerned about their own problems, and if the state of someone else's marriage is your biggest problem you're a lucky individual.

I think one of the big questions is why now? The answer is clear when you look at the demographics. Young people just don't understand why anyone even cares about this issue. Every election cycle they're a bigger share of the electorate while people who care very deeply about the "definition of marriage" are a smaller share. For that reason it's absolutely critical to the Social Conservatives that they get this enshrined into law, the Constitution if possible NOW. They can't win later and they know it.

The Iowa Supreme Court decision (Varner 4/3/09) and the California decision yesterday have many similarities.

No Judge ruled on their own that prohibiting same gender marriage violates the Iowa and US constitution. In both cases it started with people bringing a lawsuit indicating their constitutional rights were being violated. The Courts did as they are required to do, they ruled on an issue before them, they didn't create the issue. In Iowa a trial was held and the opponents of same sex marriage lost, this is as far as the case has progress in California. In Iowa the losing side appealed the State District Court Judge's decision to the Iowa Supreme Court, just as the the losing side will appeal the Federal District Court judge's ruling to the federal Appeals Court (9th circuit). The Iowa Supreme Court held that prohibiting same sex CIVIL marriage violated their equal protection rights under the Iowa constitution (the Iowa equal protection language mirrors the US Constitution equal protection language). The Iowa decision was clear civil marriage involves the legal rights and responsibilities that come with marriage in the state (taxes, property ownership, etc.), the court was clear that civil marriage is not the same as religious marriage. Any religion can sanction same sex unions in a religious marriage, or refuse to do so. The Iowa Supreme Courts decision, which was written by a Presbyterian Deacon was clear that civil marriage has absolutely nothing to do with religious marriage, and no one has a right to insist on a religious marriage, and the state will not involve itself in those issues.

NOJoBo seems to indicate he's fine with a "civil union", essentially a civil marriage, i.e. the legal rights and responsibilities under the state law that come with marriage, is the same thing as a civil union. People of the same gender or opposite gender can get married in a civil ceremony, or a religious ceremony, under the law the marriage conducted by a judge (or anyone else authorized to perform marriages) is just as valid as a marriage performed at a Basilica by the Archbishop. One one of those marriages may be viewed as a valid sacramental marriage in the Catholic church, but that is a religious issue, and not a issue for the government.

The latest poll in Iowa has shown a majority of Iowans now support gay marriage, it is not an issue except for those on the extreme. In the GOP primary for governor the candidate who made repealing Gay marriage in Iowa the number one issue lost by almost 10% against the candidate who tried his hardest to avoid the issue. Even with the large number of far right in Iowa's GOP, this issue couldn't get the guy the nomination.

hawkeye democrat-you may be new to this board, (I'm a woman,by the way), but those who are regulars know that I am a fiscal conservative, social, well, I kind of consider myself a libertarian, (please note the small 'l'; I'm not a kook)---

my grandmother always told me that her parents had to 'go to city hall', (that's Italian for getting married in a civil ceremony), then get married in church 30 days later. (Why 30 days? I have no idea.) This whole 'gay marriage' thing got me thinking-why are the clergy doing civil duties? Why not make th states perform the 'civil' unions, and have the 'marriages' performed by clergy? It seems to me that everyone would be happy-given that the majority support 'civil unions', but NOT 'gay marriages'.

However, here is the thing: (this is an aside to John B, who does know me for a long time,and knows me as a sucker for a good poll) the African-American community is overwhelmingly SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE. Now, I do not say that Obama is bigoted against the gay community-I don't personally know the man-but the polling suggests that more than 70% of the African American community identifies as socially conservative, (see Gallup for the full report).

In Florida, that meant that the state Constitution was amended by more than the 2/3's majority necessary to enshrine this bigotry, (that marriage was between one man and one woman) into the state constitution. Meaning that many of my dear friends, who have been together longer than my husband and I,are precluded from being ''married"-primarily because of record numbers of African Americans coming out to vote for Obama.

This is rarely addressed; I suppose it is considered politically incorrect by the media.

I hate bigotry in all its forms. I was raised that way. I believe in religious freedom. I was raised that way, too.

there is an easy fix. I wonder why no one ever thinks to apply it?

hawkeye democrat-you may be new to this board, (I'm a woman,by the way), but those who are regulars know that I am a fiscal conservative, social, well, I kind of consider myself a libertarian, (please note the small 'l'; I'm not a kook)---

my grandmother always told me that her parents had to 'go to city hall', (that's Italian for getting married in a civil ceremony), then get married in church 30 days later. (Why 30 days? I have no idea.) This whole 'gay marriage' thing got me thinking-why are the clergy doing civil duties? Why not make th states perform the 'civil' unions, and have the 'marriages' performed by clergy? It seems to me that everyone would be happy-given that the majority support 'civil unions', but NOT 'gay marriages'.

However, here is the thing: (this is an aside to John B, who does know me for a long time,and knows me as a sucker for a good poll) the African-American community is overwhelmingly SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE. Now, I do not say that Obama is bigoted against the gay community-I don't personally know the man-but the polling suggests that more than 70% of the African American community identifies as socially conservative, (see Gallup for the full report).

In Florida, that meant that the state Constitution was amended by more than the 2/3's majority necessary to enshrine this bigotry, (that marriage was between one man and one woman) into the state constitution. Meaning that many of my dear friends, who have been together longer than my husband and I,are precluded from being ''married"-primarily because of record numbers of African Americans coming out to vote for Obama.

This is rarely addressed; I suppose it is considered politically incorrect by the media.

I hate bigotry in all its forms. I was raised that way. I believe in religious freedom. I was raised that way, too.

there is an easy fix. I wonder why no one ever thinks to apply it?

Great post Pat . . . people need to mind their own business and stay out of other people's bedroom.

Interesting how folks can't see the hypocrisy intrinsic in demanding their "freedoms" while denying that same right to others because they feel "uncomfortable".

America has too many problems to constantly waste energy trying to keep people from loving one another in any way they see fit.

This is yet another "childish thing" that American needs to put away, just like President Obama said in his Inaugural Address.

Excellent post, Pat! Thanks for your story and your passion. It is your turn to be treated equally in this joke we call society! I support you and your right to marry whomever you choose!

Great post, Pat. The rights of the few are as important as the rights of many.

Give em hell Pat! We as society have NO right telling people who they can & cannot marry!

Love knows no boundaries...

Great Post Pat, I hope that you and your Hubby are happy and have a long and joyous marriage!!

It's extremely unlikely that same-sex marriage will become much of a political issue this fall...particularly in light of the fact that President Obama is himself opposed to same-sex marriage.

Presumably, if we are to take President Obama at his word, had he been a voter in California, his conscience would have required him to vote in favor of Proposition 8...as a majority (70%, according to exit polling done by the L.A. Times) of African-American voters in California did.

Without the strong support of African-American voters, Proposition 8 would likely have been defeated at the polls.

All "haters", I presume.

Keep it up, Pat. You're fighting the good fight. As dispiriting as it is, change is sometimes painfully incremental. But yesterday was a big step in the right direction and a slap directly in the face of the homophobes of this nation.

I respect the rights of people to live their own lives, but I expect the gay community to respect my rights as a CHRISTIAN to vote my conscience.

I would like to remind the gay community and supporters that the peoiple of California voted and their will was overturned by the court. The message is loud and clear, our votes do not matter; therefore, the rest of us "haters" do not want to hear it when its time to vote for what you want.

Payback can be a @!$%# at times!

Black support for Prop. 8 called exaggeration

"Reports of overwhelming African American support for Proposition 8's ban on same-sex marriage were exaggerated in exit polls, a new look at the November election results has found. . .

Exit polls found that 70 percent of black voters backed Prop. 8 on Nov. 4, even as they overwhelmingly supported Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, who opposed the same-sex marriage ban.

But an analysis of precinct-level voting data on Prop. 8 from Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego and San Francisco counties, which are home to nearly two-thirds of California's black voters, suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58 percent. . .

"The study debunks the myth that African Americans overwhelmingly and disproportionately supported Proposition 8," Andrea Shorter, director of And Marriage for All, said in a statement."

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-07/bay-area/17199504_1_same-sex-marriage-ban-black-voters-lesbian-task-force

And this

"The statistical trends from the exit poll of 2,240 voters suggested that an array of voters came out both in opposition to and in support of Proposition 8, with no single demographic group making up most of either the Yes or No vote. Support for Proposition 8 initially appeared strong amongst African American voters interviewed in the exit poll^[147] but an analysis by Patrick Egan of New York University, who wrote a report with Kenneth Sherrill of Hunter College of New York for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force showed otherwise.^[148] Their analysis of precinct-level voting data on Prop. 8 from Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego and San Francisco counties, which are home to nearly two-thirds of California's black voters, suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was much less than originally inferred from the exit poll.^[149] Those who described themselves as religious were the strongest supporters of prop 8.^[150] Young voters were more likely to have voted against the ballot measure than older voters, while Republicans were more likely to have supported the measure than were Democrats.^[151]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

So the widely reported story that the black vote is the reason that Prop 8 passed has been proven FALSE.

And your supposition that President Obama's "concious" would have led him to support Prop 8's passage is also false, President Obama came out against Prop 8, and clearly articulated his reasons why:

"I've stated my opposition to this. I think it's unnecessary," Obama told MTV. "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about."

"Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them," he added."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/11/obama-on-mtv-i.html

Ultimately, even though the President expressed a personal objection to gay marriage, he also acknowledged that it is LAW that governs this country and not personal religious beliefs.

President Obama is trying to finesse a thorny political issue, but ultimately the rights of gay people do not rest with opinons or feelings, but with the laws of our land. If it is necessary for President Obama to ultimately "flip flop" on this issue to come down on the side of what is just, I personally do not have a problem with that.

Spreading misinformation in an attempt to politicize such a personal issue is really quite counterproductive.

"Payback can be a @!$%# at times!" -Mommy2be

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What an awesome ambassador for Christianity you are.

Jesus would be proud I'm sure.

which are home to nearly two-thirds of California's black voters, suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58 percent. . .

"The study debunks the myth that African Americans overwhelmingly and disproportionately supported Proposition 8," Andrea Shorter, director of And Marriage for All, said in a statement."

So almost 60% of the most liberal areas voted for prop 8. It can be assumed that the other third were more conservative and vote for prop 8 in higher numbers. I question the conclusion of the researcher that "African Americans overwhelmingly and disproportionately supported Proposition 8,". In any language they voted overwhelmingly.

Pat,

I completely agree with you. But I've got to admit, that for the last 3 years reading your comments I've been under the (obviously) mistaken impression that you're a woman!

Not that it matters in the least; I'm just laughin in shock at the moment.

Good day and good fight....sir! :)

Alan,

My only point is that the black vote was not the deciding factor as originally reported.

Good to see you around.

"...African-American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58%..."

"Only" 58%...?

The L.A. Times says 70%...the S.F. Chronicle says 58%.

70% or 58%...those are both landslide numbers.

Either way...an awful lot of "haters", eh, NF?

And, President Obama's views on same-sex marriage are clear and unambiguous...he's opposed.

Mixed Bag:

Always the selective reader . . .

The second link I provided more succinctly made the larger point I was highlighting:

"The statistical trends from the exit poll of 2,240 voters suggested that an array of voters came out both in opposition to and in support of Proposition 8, with no single demographic group making up most of either the Yes or No vote."

This contradicts what you posted initially:

"Without the strong support of African-American voters, Proposition 8 would likely have been defeated at the polls."

Just as the fact that President Obama came out on the record against Prop 8 directly contradicts this in your original post:

"Presumably, if we are to take President Obama at his word, had he been a voter in California, his conscience would have required him to vote in favor of Proposition 8"

So it would seem, that everything you posted was basically not true, but of course, I would not expect you to acknowledge that.

Nashville-fan...

..."everything you posted was basically not true..." Really...

Oh my, Nashville...your ability to generalize is truly impressive...

"...President Obama is himself opposed to same-sex marriage." Truth...or lie, NF?

The L.A. Times did not say that their exit polling showed that 70% of African-Americans voted in favor of Prop. 8? Truth...or lie?

And all those who voted for Prop.8..."haters", or no?

The vote here in California was close enough on Prop. 8 that without the solid support of African-Americans, it would "likely" (the word I chose to use in my initial comment) have failed...despite your citation of a contrary view from wikipedia. You are aware that wikipedia is a source with content that can be edited by users? Not very reliable, in my opinion.

Who, exactly...is the selective reader here?

Aren't we close to where you go nuclear, and play the race card?

I mean...based on our track record, and the natural inclination of those on the left to seek any port in a storm?

Mixed Bag:

Not clear what you even mean by "haters", let alone if those who voted for Prop 8 would qualify.

My previous two posts on this topic speak for themselves.

You have a great day.

NF-

The first line of the first post on our thread reads, in part:

"To all the haters out there posting against yesterday's ruling overturning Prop Hate..."

I believe that patHuntingtonNY would say that those of us who voted for Prop. 8 (including my African-American brothers and sisters here in sunny California) are indeed, "haters".

For the record, Nashville...you've already ensured that I'll have a great day.

Thanks.

Pat:

I wonder why I figured you were gay from the start. LOL

ITM,

Possibly your gadar is set to rise at the first sniff of opportunity? Or you wear your bigotry out front and center? Lead with it and ask questions later.

ITM,

No wonder I figured you for a homophobe from the start... lol

Fiesty,

Call me whatever the F' you want. MY opinion does not change for anyone.

You probably like carpet too.

Nahhhh ITM!

I'm more of a hardwood kinda girl! ;0)

They are really only lowly entertainers - no more/no less. However, they are laughing all the way to the bank.

No Frank Joe hasn't see the light, he's just like all the other teabagging republicans he takes the side of what sounds good at the moment. He'll be back to his socialist countries tomorrow. He's a hypocrite just like all the rest of the teabagging republicans.

Hiya Leon!

Good to see you & great points! ;0)

Eric the problem is that Muslims are the ones that flew planes into the towers on 9/11.

They have yet to prove that they are a "religion" of "peace"

Larry,

The Al Qaidas that flew the planes into the Twin Towers are no more Muslim than the KKK are Christian or the Skin Heads are for that matter. In all of these cases they are violent extremists that are way outside the mainstreams of their respective base religions and so should never be taken to represent those religions.

Islam really is a religion of peace, just like at it's heart Christianity is a peaceful religion. However, many of our worst wars and travesties of justice were caused by Christianity, look at the near destruction of all of the pagan religions in Europe by the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Conquistadors etc. etc. etc.

Do not go throwing stones when you live in an untempered, single pane glass house, you will only have a massive glazing bill and your neighbors will be watching you the whole time!

So guilty until proven innocent Larry?

This means that Christians cannot be allowed into doctors offices or government buildings until they prove that all self proclaimed Christians aren't going to bomb or kill anybody.

Christianity has yet to prove that it is a religion of peace. How soon we forget what has happened in Africa.

Hey Larry - and how many hundreds of millions or billions of people have you christians killed to cram your worthless false religion down their throats? Sorry but for a religion that supposedly reveres a prince of peace christians have done more than their fair share of murdering to ensure to spread his word so falsely. As you say those without sin cast the first stone, so better stop throwing stones when you have so much blood on your hands. The world would be a much more peaceful place if there were no religions and no religious fanatic nutcases to screw everything up!

Larry - I just don't believe this is what our country is about.

I am a "flaming liberal" and a "flaming atheist" and EVEN I believe that all religions MUST be treated EQUALLY in this country just as all people should be treated equally. They don't have to PROVE IT. If we start going down that road do we then have to move every Catholic establishment XX miles from any establishment/residence housing minors? Because by your statement above...all Catholics must be bad to children.

Since we cannot "draw a line" for religion to follow, we must treat them equally.

Yes, there are bad apples in every segment of society. I'm not willing to bend to the fear they project.

Now, as an atheist I'm against organized religion (but let's not get me started on that). If you start deciding which religion is good and which is bad then you pretty much confirm what I believe about all religions. Careful there.......

Larry N.D.

Allegedly.........you forgot to use the word allegedly.

You have no idea who was flying the planes when they hit the buildings on 9/11.

The CVRs and FDRs, from WTC, were never "recovered", remember. Only the FDR at the Pentagon.

Just because you are willing to believe the lie that you have been told doesn't make it a fact or true. Only an unhindered investigation with security clearances and subpoena power could tell you what really happened on 9/11/01. Yet you would oppose permitting such a thing. You don't care about the truth, you just want to demonize Muslims.

Hey, Paul! Have a good weekend! The thing we agree on is it would be nice to have an unhindered, devil take all investigation on these things. Too often, politics gets in the way.

Larry Mimot

The people who flew the planes we're Saudis. If the Great Protector GWB was going to attack someone, why not them? Oh I forgot, he was too busy making sure Bin Laden's relatives got out of the country safely and cleaning the poop out of his underwear when he was told what happened. Fo r the Dems, the attack would have happened anyway even if Gore was in office. Remember the "Intelligence" agencies didn't work w/ one another during that time. Even though there connection tying it together. But back to the lil shrub and Darth Cheney, they both have major ties w/ the Saudis because their both oil men and neither one could afford to bite the hand that actually feeds them

Hi newdayDawning. Yes, there should be a political price paid for opposing the revelation of the truth to which we citizens are entitled. Democracy and a Republic both require an informed citizenry in order to function properly. Eternal vigilance is our responsibility if we wish to remain free. Our representatives are not supposed to misinform us or trivialize our concerns about the truthfulness of what we are being told. They're job is to hold public hearings and inquiries, so that we can go about our lives secure in the understanding that transparency will rule the day. Sadly this is no longer happening, and even when it ostensibly does take place, witnesses are permitted to lie while under oath, with impunity.

On another note, trail riding does help to get one back in touch with nature. Does and fawns together in the wild can bring a good bit of tranquility to almost any tortured soul.

Have a nice weekend too.

Philip

Allegedly................ You forgot to use the same word that Larry left out of his declaritive statement.

Maybe the Saudis were flying the planes, maybe they weren't. Has it ever occurred to you that ALL those people on those planes could have thought that they were engaging in a National Security DRILL? Maybe even the hi-jackers didn't know that they were expected to die at the end of the drill. They were just supposed to play the "role" of militant Muslims, the flight crews were just supposed to play along with being overpowered.

Maybe Cheney just hi-jacked their fake hijacking.

No, it isn't just you. I believe the media spends too much time reporting negatives or discussing "anger" levels and no time reporting the many good things Pres Obama has done--like saving the country from total collapse.

But at the same time Barry hands out over $150,000 to a college to study what happens to monkeys wehen they are on cocaine.....

Larry,

"The study is examining the effects of cocaine on a particular neurotransmitter among monkeys who have had a long-term addiction to cocaine.

The medical school boasts a significant body of work studying addiction. Ultimately, the study could lead to better treatment for recovering cocaine addicts.

Balfour also cited another Wake Forest study. This one is studying whether yoga and other non-pharmaceutical therapies such as wellness classes can help alleviate hot flashes and other symptoms of menopause.

"How does this study help revive the economy?" Balfour asked.

Well, again, jobs, said Nancy Avis, a professor in the Department of Social Sciences and Health policy at the medical school. The funding, more than $147,000 over two years, will contribute to the salaries of six people.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/08/89974/stimulus-funds-pay-for-monkey.html#ixzz0vk3zAtDg

Typical conservative short sightedness . . . anything that does not put a dollar in their pocket RIGHT THIS MINUTE is a wasted dollar.

Kind of like how "volcano monitoring" was waste . . . until that big volcano erupted and shut down Europe.

Kind of like how money for "flu vaccines" was waste . . . until the swine flu pandemic began sweeping the world.

Kind of like how investing in safety on oil rigs and coal mines was a waste . . . until they started exploding and leaking uncontrollably into the Gulf.

Something to consider Larry . . . if we can understand what is going on in a person when they become addicted to cocaine or any other substance, we may be able to establish more effective ways of treating that addiction.

This could have positive effects on several areas of our lives, saving a generation of drug addicted Americans, decreasing the demand for drugs that is responsible for much of the crime and violence in our country, especially around the much politicized border area, and the list goes on and on.

Sometimes a small investment NOW can lead to a bigger payoff for the economy LATER. Everything that does not lead to a quick buck is not a waste.

But I agree, it does make a nifty political headline . . . not much substance behind it though.

Larry -

Your right. All he had to do was visit the Congress and observe the Republicans.

It is in every newspaper, and was simply another watered-down compromise, that still leaves a glaring disparity in sentencing. What exactly is there to celebrate here?

"The bill also raises the 10-year mandatory minimum sentence from possession of about 50 grams of crack to about 280 grams.

Compare that to powder cocaine - to receive a mandatory minimum of five years in prison, an offender must be in possession of 500 grams of cocaine."

Under the new law, the five-year sentence kicks in at possession of at least 28 grams of crack.

That is still an almost 20-1 ratio. That isn't going to make much difference on the street...

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/08/04/2010-08-04_prezs_crack_down_on_tough_jail_terms.html#ixzz0vkB8TRD1

dangerfield,

Things are rarely perfect in this world, I'll take a step in the right direction over a step backward any day.

Larry Minot

All he had to do was ask Bush how a monkey reacts on cocaine

Well said!!!

It is a proven, documented, and unquestioned fact that the U.S. Auto industry would not be where it is today with without assistance from the Obama Adminstration.

Really? Before Obama speaks, will he have his administration provide the public with a quarterly report, just like all publicly traded companies provide, to show the profitability of GM? Will that documented show the numbers of cars sold, the operating costs of the company, and the companies net worth, just like all other publically traded companies provide? Will that report show how much money has be plowed into GM from the US government, how their operating costs are probably higher then other automakers because of the unions they have to support, and and all money that GM is expected to pay back to the American taxpayer? And will tht report show the market cap of GM, you know, how much the company would go for if it was on the open market, and not owned by the government?

All of this information shouldn't be too hard to find, you said it was documented.

When all that is done, then I'd to hear what the president has to say about GM.

Because Nash, they think if they give the President credit for anything the teabagging republican nuts will accuse them of being the liberal media, and that scares them to death why I don't know, their becoming just as dumbed down as the teabaggers.

Oh now you want the facts JoAnnSmith. Now that's hypocritical but that's what you do best.

If you can't deny the truth, ask for a report.

lol