Dennis,

I agree and have said pretty much the same thing in the past, but not as well as you. This is not a Tax hike by the democrats but an increase in the deficit by the republicans to the largest one ever in modern memory.

Most just will not acknowledge that this was done by Bush and President Obama is going to be criticized no matter which way he goes on this. If he lets them stand we will have the largest deficit ever, if he deletes the Tax Cuts for the richest 2% that received over 50% of the benefit he is raising taxes.

Talk about a rock and a hard place.

Great post

Dennis:

Thanks for keeping the TRUTH front & center!

We must be on the same 'page' again today - as I had intended to comment on that very issue this morning!

Voted!

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio: Democrats desire to keep the tax cuts in effect for all except the top 2% of earners

Why? The Bush tax cuts have been described as absolutely evil by the Democrats and the cause for many of our problems today. Letting those tax cuts expire the Democrats say will put the country back on track of fiscal responsibility. But the amount tax revenue generated by only raising taxes on the top wage earners will not significantly reduce the deficit gap in Washington. So what kind of game are the Democrats playing? Sure looks like a class warfare one, and not one that will close the deficit, the very deficit the Democrats have created.

JoAnna,

Please show us how the Dems created the deficit when Bush was handed a surplus.

Dennis,

I forgot to mention that by letting the Tax Cuts for the rich expire it will reduce the deficit by about 658 Billion dollars. If the total tax cuts stay the deficit will increase by about 3.8 Trillion.

Well said Dennis, every "temporary" tax cut pushed by the Republicans is described as a "tax increase" when it expires. It's a clearly dishonest strategy. The most dishonest among them are always quick to throw the class warfare card, even though the evidence is plain that these "temporary" tax cuts were biased strongly toward the most wealthy from the beginning and all data shows that 75% of ALL wealth gained in this decade went to those at the very top. It's a game that's wearing thin and citizens are starting to understand that Warren Buffett was right. “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

Dennis,

JoAnna doesn't answer questions and she has selective vision and memory. When you ask her a question, she just asks you a different question or calls you deranged. . . unless she is on her meds, then she posts links to right wing talking points.

Just didn't want you to waste as much of your life as already have on JoAnna.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

JoAnna,

Please show us how the Dems created the deficit when Bush was handed a surplus.

Not my fight but I would point out that when the first tax cut was implemented that there was a Democratic Senate majority. This was in 2001 when there were no wars either. At the time I thought it was a stupid idea because we were paying the down the debt and Alan Greenspan was actually worried by the prospect of no federal debt (Ha).

The second tax cut in 2003 was insane and completely the responsibility of the Republicans, and we had two wars to finance by this time.

Here's the latest from Rasmussen, the most accurate pollster in the 2008 elections;

"A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 46% of Likely Voters would vote for their district's Republican congressional candidate, while 36% would opt for his or her Democratic opponent."

That's their largest lead in recent years, and is 17% higher than when the 2008 elections were held.

PS - Gallup missed big time in the 2008 elections.

One of the big differences is that Rasmussen polls VOTERS (You know, the ones that actually vote), while Gallup counts lots of people that never vote.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

If the Bush tax cuts benefitted just the "rich", why will 80% of the estimated additional government tax revenues come from the middle class if they expire next year?

Personally, I don't care about having the "rich" pay 10% more in taxes by letting the top bracket expire, but they do account for about 30% of private sector spending, and they do provide about 70% of the private sector jobs in America.

Great points, Dennis. The interesting thing is the GOP could have picked an expiration date less than 10 years but they chose the full 10 years. John McCain voted against the first round by declaring the tax cuts were unfairly benefiting the wealthiest Americans. Those tax cuts were intended to boost the economy during a mild recession, they should have been for only a few years.

It is my understanding, per the CBO, that the 2001 Bush tax cuts added $1.3 trillion to the deficit; the 2003 tax cuts added $349 billion to the deficit; Medicare Part B (another reconciliation bill) added $394 billion to the deficit.

The GOP voted YES to add $2 trillion to the deficit and ultimately the debt.

Rasmussen is also known as an unreliable poll for a whole host of reasons but republicans love it for the very reasons it is considered unreliable.

Alan: “Not my fight but I would point out that when the first tax cut was implemented that there was a Democratic Senate majority.”

And that is why they used reconciliation !! (51 votes) I didn't say there wasn't and Dems voting for it.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

JoAnna,

Please show us how the Dems created the deficit when Bush was handed a surplus

What an odd statement. "Created the deficit"? Bush ran deficits, that much is true. Obama is running deficits. That much is true too. Bush added about $5 trillion in deficit spending in his eight years to the $10 trillion national debt when he left office. Obama has added an additional $4 trillion to the national debt from his deficit spending in under 2 years of his first and only term. In fact, Congress will need to raise the legal debt ceiling to over $14 trillion after the November elections to support all the deficit spending Obama and the Democrats are running.

And to continue with the "odd" characterization of your statement, why are you so offended by the $5 trillion of debt Bush added to the national debt, but seem unconcerned about Obama's massive increase in deficit spending? What Obama is doing is obvioulsy not working to revive the economy, growth is slowing to a crawl.

Obama is creating massive deficits, and you'd expect some kind of economic gain, at least in the short term. But yet, there is none. We know the long term ramifications of all this additional debt, and it's not good.

ROY WILSON,

I didn’t say that they only benefit the rich. That is how it is referred to because as a tax bracket they saw, by far, the largest reduction in tax dollars.

Please show me any proof that over the past 9+ years that the rich have created any jobs in total or net.

And that is why they used reconciliation !! (51 votes) I didn't say there wasn't and Dems voting for it.

It passed the senate 62-38. 12 Dems voted for, 2 Repubs voted against. Senate was 50 - 50 at the time but Jim Jefferies defected just after this was passed. So my point is that GWB had significant democratic help in creating the deficit in response to your query.

"Please show us how the Dems created the deficit when Bush was handed a surplus."

JoAnnaSmith:

Letting those tax cuts expire the Democrats say will put the country back on track of fiscal responsibility. But the amount tax revenue generated by only raising taxes on the top wage earners will not significantly reduce the deficit gap in Washington.

You're really slinging the bull, JoAnna. Even Chris Wallace at Fox News pointed out that repeal of the Bush tax cut for the wealthy would decrease the deficit by more than $600 billion. As the late Republican Senator Everett Dirksen once said, a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you're talking about real money. Six hundred billion is real money. Although maybe it's not real money to modern-day Republicans who don't care about how big the deficit gets as long as the wealthy get their tax cuts and the military-industrial complex gets its fat and juicy contracts to build weapons for defeating looming threat from the Soviet Union.

Alan, NJ

Not my fight but I would point out that when the first tax cut was implemented that there was a Democratic Senate majority. This was in 2001 when there were no wars either. At the time I thought it was a stupid idea because we were paying the down the debt and Alan Greenspan was actually worried by the prospect of no federal debt (Ha).

The second tax cut in 2003 was insane and completely the responsibility of the Republicans, and we had two wars to finance by this time.

Alan, you have broken the rules. You cannot mitigate any of Bush's "reasons" for adding massive amounts of debt to the national debt. You can only mitigate Obama's reasons for adding to the debt, reasons like the poor economy in Greece and Europe, corporations are hoarding money and not hiring to make Obama look bad, and it's the Republicans fault.

Alan,

If they had 60+ votes in their pocket they would not have used reconciliation.

Do you have a link to the Senate vote or anything to prove your statement?

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired
I forgot to mention that by letting the Tax Cuts for the rich expire it will reduce the deficit by about 658 Billion dollars. If the total tax cuts stay the deficit will increase by about 3.8 Trillion.

___________________

So, using your numbers, Barry and the Congressional Dem's are going to increase the deficit by ONLY $3.1 trillion?

Great job!!! Maybe I should vote for that brilliant thinking!!!

Here is a handy chart for everyone except JoAnna to look it, it shows the truth about which President presided over which deficits:

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Hint: The bulk of the deficit was created by Republican Presidents. . . I have pointed this out to JoAnna before, but she just ignores it and keeps telling the same lies over and over again.

She is a misinformation agent, and a very good one at that.

P.S. Ironic that President Obama passes a Stimulus Bill to ease the pain of average Americans suffering after the economy was raped and pillaged by Wall Street, and the Republican Party opposes it out of one side of their mouths, goes to hand out Stimulus Checks out of the other side of their mouths, and then, when the Stimulus Bill works to halt the loss of a quarter of a million jobs A MONTH, they seamlessy transition into screaming THE DEFICIT! THE DEFICIT! at the top of their lungs, when in fact it is the sh!t that THEY DID- like unfunded tax cuts and wars - that exploded the DEFICIT!

I mean, I have to stand and applaud the BALLSINESS of it all! That is real HUTSPA right there!

But still a bunch of bull nonetheless.

Nash,

Thanks - Nothing like a picture to define where we are and how we got here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001

Passed the senate on May 23rd. Jefferies defected June 6th. Original bill was reduced from 1.6T to 1.35T and that brought in the dems. You have to remember Bush ran on giving our money back to us. He didn't mention we still owed the bank a fortune.

JoAnna Smith, some facts to consider:

According to the non-partisan, fact checking website Polifacts:

"Those with incomes in the bottom 20 percent had mean income of $16,100 in 1997. In 2007, it climbed to $17,700 -- or up 9.9 percent. For the group on the next rung up the ladder, income grew by 15.9 percent. For those ranked between 41 and 60 percent of income --only some of whom are in the bottom 50 percent -- income grew from $48,000 in 1997 to $55,300, or about 15.2 percent. That’s not stagnant, but it’s small potatoes compared to a 74.6 percent jump in income for the top 1 percent of earners. Mean income for that group climbed from $755,700 to slightly more than $1.3 million between 1997 and 2007." Looks like the Bush years were veddy veddy good for the top 1%, wouldn't you say? Not so good for the rest of us.

Okay, lets use your numbers. You say increasing the taxes on the rich will have the government take in an additional $600 billion in tax revenue. That's $600 billion that will not be invested by businesses owners, venture capitialists, and speculators to create and/or gorw their businesses. And what will the government do with that money? If they don't do anything but reduce the deficit with it, that will be $600 billion taken out of the economy. Obama said he created or "saved" 4 million jobs with his $787 billion stimulus package. You take $600 billion out of the economy, you can expect to lose that many jobs.

Alan,

Thanks - I have used Wikipedia and caught heck in the past but I accept your information. There were good advantages for the middle class and it was needed at the time since the economy was in a decline.

But I still have to wonder … Why did they use reconciliation?

joannasmith

the top 1% have 66% of the nations wealth,and the bottom 50% have 1% of the nations wealth how are they creating jobs now?don't you hear that giant sucking sound as the nations middle class goes up in smoke ?and yes i do have a link but ill have to find it i think it was business daily

Hmmmm . . . business profits are up but they are not investing the profits in new jobs . . . they are paying themselves big bonuses . . .

Anybody else tired of corporations trying to hold us all at gunpoint with all these threats?

I mean, they have had their cake and ate it too for decades, and all we got was the second Great Depression . . . somebody remind me why we should believe anything corporations (or their paid shills on message boards) say?

Who are you gonna believe, corporations or your lying eyes?

Sorry Joe,

Nice try to spin it. The fact is the Tax Cuts are a product of GW. They picked the date for them to expire. President Obama has nothing to do with this except to try and clean up the mess Bush left behind. Everyday it seems we find more crap that GW kept secret to the American people. It he Tax Cuts stay to deficit will increase, that is on Bush. If President Obama lets the Tax Cuts for the rich expire, that Tax Increase is a result of Bush. Do you not see the pattern here. You guys are real good at trying to pass the buck to President Obama to cover the fact that you hosed the American people.

No matter how you want to spin it, if the cuts stay or is some are allowed to expire the results from that are the sole property of GW.

joanna Agent Smith.

Bush inherited a surplus and created a deficit. Just deal with that truth and quit fighting it. The other truth is that the pub's create more debt than they solve and have a trackable history of doing so...How can you deny that??

It's so ironic that your type claim that the dem's are tax and spenders but the pub's are borrow and spenders. Are you too self blinded to realize that both are spenders?!?! It's just that one tries to take the cash via taxes rather than borrow it from other countries but because they raise taxes they are worse then those who put us in debt to do the same thing? It's insanity!

Obama has added about 2 trillion to the debt. Okay, thats a lot but it's not 4 trillion. Where did you get 4 trillion?

Allowing the bush tax cuts to expire is not the solution in and of itself to our national debt and I don't think I've read anyone saying that. It most certainly is part of the solution though. I'm not paying taxes for wealthy people, joanna Agent Smith!

How dare you or anyone else ask me to pay the taxes of the wealthy who look at me as one of the little people trapped in their future little banana republic of worker bees?! How about YOU pay their taxes for them and kiss their azzes and leave me the hell alone.

Yes it is a Republican Tax Increase by design. I am glad the polls are showing gains for the Democrats. I think the polls will go higher come September when more people are paying attention. No one wants to elect someone who is proud of doing nothing while holdng a public office. Most people, both democrats and republicans want the republican tax cut to the wealthy to end. This will help our deficit. Let it end. Can't wait for November 2010. I think Republicans will be lucky to gain 2 in the senate and 20 in the house but no majorty. No one cares about immigration in a bad economy. Its about jobs. If Democrats can focus on job creation between now and then and let Republican keep filibustering on public TV, they will be rewarded come November. It's jobs, jobs, jobs.

The rich Democrats are all about power. They tell everyone they trying to help the little guy, but it's all about them having more money and staying in power and they have the most amazing spin machine out there. All they have done is run up debt, tax everyone more, and take away your freedom.

Alan, NJ

you are wrong,...the Act of 2001 was passed by the Repub House 5-16-2001 and by the THEN Repub Senate 5-23-2001 (Jeffords didn't bolt until June 6th); Bush signed it into law on June 7th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/107th_United_States_Congress

We can't even get one post out of the gates without a lie or misrepresentation of FACT that is easily verifiable. Why do you think we will just take your words as fact? We know how to use the googles, why can't you figure it out? Geesh, it's Friday and I was in a really good mood; but now I see what we are up against today,...UGH!

Alan, my apologies - ready, fire, aim - oops! I see that you immediately corrected yourself,...

PS. For those asking Why Reconciliation? there were sunset provisions on the Estate Tax phase outs,...that provision cannot exist and they needed to 'fix' it with other legislation,...they weren't able to do it.

"If they don't do anything but reduce the deficit with it, that will be $600 billion taken out of the economy."

Republicans just love to promote the myth that tax cuts for the wealthy spur economic growth, when history has shown no such corollary. Did the wealth generated by the Bush tax cuts spur the development of new technolgies, expansion of industies, the stabilizing of iour economic infrastructure? No, it lead to the develpment of derivatives and other phony baloney ways of "growing" wealth without creating real jobs. At least the Obama stimulus has spurred development of alternative energy technology which will lead to future prosperity.

NP Clara

RON-985952
joannasmith
the top 1% have 66% of the nations wealth,and the bottom 50% have 1% of the nations wealth how are they creating jobs now?don't you hear that giant sucking sound as the nations middle class goes up in smoke ?and yes i do have a link but ill have to find it i think it was business daily

Okay, so what do you propose? Trillions of dollars of deficit spending? Increased taxes? Massive new entitlement programs? That's what the Democrats have given us. Heck, that's what Bush gave us too (and got a 20% approval rating for his troubles) So where are the jobs?

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio "Please show me any proof that over the past 9+ years that the rich have created any jobs in total or net."

Even Obama admits that small businesses create about 70% of private sector jobs. Small businesses also make up the majority of those making $250,000 or more per year.

Raising their taxes 10% by letting the Bush tax cuts expire sounds good to many people, but that means they will cut back on hiring people and their own personal spending, which makes up about 30% of private sector spending.

There's a good reason most economists say that raising taxes on ANYONE during a recession is a bad idea.

Personally, I don't really care, but when the economy continues to sputter and unemployment stays high because of Obama's policies, you will know why.

Once again: I don't know where some people got the National Debt #'s,

here's the truth: "In nominal dollars the public debt rose and then fell between 1992 and 2000 from $3T in 1992 to $3.4T in 2000 (president Clinton started w/ 3T, then when up to 5.6T, then lowered to 3.4).

During the administration of President George W. Bush, the gross debt increased from $5.6 trillion in January 2001 to $10.7 trillion by December 2008, rising from 58% of GDP to 70.2% of GDP." source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Bush almost double the National Debt. and the National Debt currently is 13.2 T.

Clara,

Thanks for the PS. I love this site because I learn new things every day.

Is this why there is no “death tax” this year?

I really don’t care for the Estate Tax or the Gift Tax. They seem like double taxation.

The death tax dates back over 3000 years but for the US it was started as a means to fund the Civil War (Tax Act of 1862). It was repealed in 1870. It was reinstated again in 1916 and increased in 1917 to support WW-I. Then in 1924 the Gift Tax was introduced. Now it is a political football. For more information follow the link.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2004/01/Estate-Taxes-An-Historical-Perspective

Roy Wilson,

Simple question:

Why do you think that the same prescription that led us to our current economic pickle will get us out?

Why are unpaid for tax cuts good?

Name one business that could run by cutting their income and increasing their liabilities?

Dennis said, " When using reconciliation for any bill that creates a deficit, by law, it must expire in 10 years. This is the reason the Bush tax cuts will expire at the end of this year. So, no this is not a Democratic tax increase it is a Republican tax increase thanks to the fact that they had to use reconciliation to pass it since it was unfunded and added to the deficit. In FY2010 alone it added $450 billion to the deficit and over the 10 years it will have added over $1 trillion to our debt and no jobs to show for it".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis, I agree with you100%. Thanks for your informative and truthful post.

Yay ! Dennis gets it !

Roy,

Everything you say sounds reasonable and I would agree except no one can show me any evidence (proof) that since the mid 80’s tax cuts for the top 2% of earners create jobs.

“Show Me The Money” (Facts & Figures – with a link) and I will become a believer.

Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Ali Weinberg,

Who paid you to write this nonsense?

I suppose the only argument available to continue cutting taxes on the rich is "they make jobs for the rest of us" one. It's a pretty feudal attitude actually, "don't upset the Lord of the Manor!" Considering the very limited growth in income over the last 30 years you might think that we've treated the rich poorly. Then again if you look at reality http://wealthforcommongood.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ShiftingResponsibility.pdf you might conclude that the rich haven't treated us mere serfs too well.

"No matter how you want to spin it, if the cuts stay or is some are allowed to expire the results from that are the sole property of GW."

__________________

Sorry for my inability to interpret the babbling gibberish that comes out of a mind addled by the terrible mental illness of Liberalism.

So, it's youR position that Barry and the Dems vote to extend the "evil" GWB tax cuts for those under $250K and balioon the defict by $3.1 trillion in the procees, it's GWB's fault??

I stand corrected.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Too bad the Democrats are not framing the message exactly as you have. They need to start calling out the Republicans and forcefully.

Maw,

you got is AZZ backwards. It is the republicans who are the party of wall street, big business and the rich. They are the ones that created this mess, and ike you, deny it and try to spin it on the democrats. You just keep demonstrating that you are the party of no, no morals, no ethics, no ideas just trying to grab every single dollar you can from the middle class.

Sorry your party has been exposed. Nice try though but none of us are buying it.

John B,

Wonderful link with great graphs. Thanks !!

http://wealthforcommongood.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ShiftingResponsibility.pdf

From Think Progress: “The leaders of the GOP want to cut the TANF Emergency Assistance Fund (which is on pace to create 240,000 jobs by September), repeatedly stalled an extension of unemployment benefits to help millions of jobless Americans, and filibustered a bill that provided tax credits to small businesses. At the same time, Republicans have been unwilling to allow the expiration Bush tax cuts for the rich, giving the wealthiest two percent of Americans, those most unlikely to be out of a job, an easy break.”

A must read for deficit hawks ($45 billion over 10 years in savings):

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/07/30/gop-tax-expends/

Dennis, estate taxes were designed to prevent hoarding by the wealthy - No bit of irony there, is there?

But yes, 2010 is the last estate tax avoidance year at these levels - perpetuating that tax cut is not allowed with the type of bill tax act 2001 was. Sunset be damned,...ya' know - a really good estate planner can help the wealthy shelter damn near every penny they get; and yet, somehow estate taxes are the master evil now? alrighty then.

878 billion dollar stimulus plan... Tarp 2 payments that were to pay down the deficit that are reallocated... Health Care Reform that will add to the deficit... Cap and Trade, that in my state will increase energy cost by 150%... You really think that any Democrats has a leg to stand on?

Clara - Thanks again.

Thanks also for the reminder of all the advantages that the rich have in keeping their actual taxes paid low. Wasn’t it Warren Buffett that said after his deductions that his actual percent of taxes paid were less than his receptionists ?

Mark L,

The problems for Republicans, while they point out all of the Democrats shortcomings, have no plan or solid ideas of how they would govern. They project an image of doing the same things they did from 2001 to 2009.

Health Care is fully paid for and will not add to the deficit.

Good point. The Dem's need to run with that and point out those numbers and maybe even go so far as to point out how much of those numbers were from the top 1% compared to the middle class. Pulling out that quote from Warren Buffet about how his secretary pays a higher percentage in taxes than he does would also be beneficial, just to put a real life billionaire's face on things.

Way to go Republicans continue to shoot yourselves in the foot!!!

I love how Anthony Weiner did them in their congressional session today!!!
Dems continue to pound the Republicans in areas where doing the right thing is concerned and the majority of you in congress and senate will keep your seats!!!

Yes< NY way to take the lead on how this country should be ran!!!
The Republicans are dooming their future................

ANTHONY WEINER FOR PRESIDENT

YOu have my vote!!!!

wiener/grayson for president

grayson/wiener for president

Dennis, that is a percentage...the amount that he will pay in taxes for one month is more money than she will see in her lifetime.

Here is a basic fact. You have to pay taxes to get a tax cut. Since the bottom 50% of the taxspayers don't pay any taxes, money coming back to those not being any taxes is not a tax cut. It is a government welfare program. It is interesting that Democrats keep saying they want to stimulate small business but on the other hand they want to take money away from them in the form of tax hikes. You can call it whatever you want, just symantics. If you sit on your hand and let taxes increase but whatever manner, it goes down as a tax increase. Raising taxes in a recession is a formula for a double dip recession. In the past 20, 70% of all new jobs have been created by small business. So on the one hand, you give less than 5% of small businesses loans which they must pay back. On the other hand, you let taxes go up and remove operating capital from small businesses. With that kind of logic, we should have a double dip recession and 20% unemployment by 2012. Can anyone say "Looks like the second coming of Jimmy Carter"

the bottom 50% have 1% of the nation wealth and the top 1% have 66% of the nation wealth,and the bottom 50% pay 35% of their income in taxes and the top 1% pay less than 15% in taxes of course this is based on 2008 statistics that sucking sound you hear is all the money going from the middle class to the top 1%

no lets put it in dollars and cents

20,000 a year @ 35% is 7,000 in taxes

1,000,000 a year @ 15% is 150,000 in taxes

now you tell me who's better off

Ray W, - “Since the bottom 50% of the tax payers don't pay any taxes”

Actually Ray that is 47% and it NOT “any” taxes. They still pay into SS and Medicare plus all local and state taxes. So please do not make it out to be more than it is.

Now, how sad is it that so many Americans don’t make enough to pay taxes? Another thing is that 5% of the people not paying any taxes made over a million dollars the year before. There are many business owners not paying taxes due to losses. Again, please include better information than just “sound bites”.

The rich Democrats will not worry about these tax cuts they all know how to hide their money better.. Wonder how they got all that money?Just ask Kerry or Rangel.. and if you need a great interest rate talk to Dobbs.. Tax info Just ask Obama's white House Staff.

Ron,

It is clearly the one that has $850K left.

Even if the Millionaire paid 35% he would have $650k remaining.

I thought the question was are the democrats closing the gap?

Mark,

Sorry buddy, TARP was signed by GW if I remember correctly.

Dennis, according to IRS statistics for 2009 it is 51%. Socail Security and Medicare were both sold as retirement insurance plans. Since when is the contribution of the employee the same as income tax. The bottom 50% of American workers pay NO income taxes. Everyone in the bottom 50% gets back everything they pay in. In fact, in the bottom 35%, due to the Earn Income Credit, those with children get more back than they pay in. I am a supporter of a 10% flat tax with the first $30,000 untaxed. Then everyone, uncluding those corporations who liberals say pay no taxes, will pay equally.

Does anybody remember that Bush did not include the costs of the wars in his accounting, and Obama is including them? Wouldn't that cause it to look like Obama has added more to the deficit? Because he is counting costs that Bush conveniently did not count.

Ray,

In your earlier statement you said NO taxes you did not say no income taxes. Again please be clear. This time you changed your statement to a correct one.

You are still using talking points and not research. I wrote a detailed post on this subject a couple weeks ago. It was a complete breakdown on all tax brackets that were paying no income taxes and the primary reasons and links to the source data. I suggest you may want to do some additional homework.

What Dianne is trying to tell all you kool-aid drinking retards is that all the moves this admin has made and all the porkulus money spend has done NOTHING to help anyone, but the government and wall st. and those already on the dole. They have made a bad situation worse and all they can do in blame Bush and play the race card, over and over and over, makes me f&^kin' sick. liberalism is a mental disease that needs to be agressively treated and eradicated.

The real world doesnt and NEVER will work the way you want, accept it

Liberals always act as though the government has first claim on peoples money, that people are getting tax breaks to keep the money they earned another name for this kind of thinking is socialism, that is not what our country was founded on. As Margaret Thatcher said the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money to take. Also the people who are successful in this country are the ones who employ people, you tax them and they dont have as much money to invest and hire new workers if Obama increases taxes his fate will be sealed as a one term president.

The only major gap most democrats have is the one between their ears! Especially when there is a vacuum separating said gap! Add ones that are liberal and left leaning, and the gap substantially widens!

I must tell you, I am not a Republican. I am however very fervent about the Constitution and with Dems and Liberals pissing on the Constitution every chance they get moving us more to a socialist society than upholding the Republic we have here, I will vote against every one of the liberals I have a vote in and contribute to the campaigns of those who are opposing Pelosi and all. America can ill afford another two years of their back alley politics, underhanded schemes, tax and spend bills, and anything else I missed here. Government is in place solely for the protection of it's people. State rights are there to take care of everything else. Anything else is a power grab and infringes our rights as Americans. Already since in office we have had significant curtailments in first and second amendment rights, have seen bills to limit the sixth amendment and even give power to the executive branch to indefiniately suspend that right to some people, serious violations against the 10th amendment (see US against SB 1070). We have seen a health bill that will cost Americans and small businesses billions, we have seen bailouts that have done nothing to help the economy, we have seen a stimulus that is not working (tax cuts would do more as many economists agree by lowering overhead to small businesses in trouble), and we have been told by Pelosi that we just don't know what we want so they have to do it for us. I include in this moderate republicans as well who are leaning towards an amnesty bill that will cost American taxpayers millions, perhaps into the billions as well.

I am a constitutionalist, I am a patriot, I love America. I love the ideals America was founded under. I love the men and women who have fought and died to give us the freedom to even post our opinions in a blog on the internet. These men and women, patriots to the core, would roll in their graves were they to see the dealings Capitol Hill is involved in today. November is coming. You will lose. Big.

M. D. Stell, very eloquent and well thought out. Thank you.

Dennis,

Great post! Well stated and to the point.

M. D. Stell,

Please clear a few things up.

Name anything that the Federal Government has done to reduce or restrict the second Amendment.

Name exactly where the current Administration has violated the First Amendment other than to continue what was done under the Bush Administration (since 9-11).

As for the Arizona SB1070 law it is all about the 10th amendment. The constitution is NOT clear weather this is a states’ right or belongs under the sole privy of Federal Government.

Do you only support the constitution when it agrees with your thinking and throw it away when it doesn’t? If you TRULY believe in the constitution then you will agree to let the courts decide. If you are a constitutionalist you will agree to let the court decide.

Pleases define exactly what you believe by “Government is in place solely for the protection of it's people”. What do you mean by protect?

You say “tax cuts would do more as many economists agree by lowering overhead to small businesses in trouble”. Yet the Republicans are filibustering a bill that helps small business – Why?

Without clearing these things up you are doing nothing but ranting as you show you need to do more fact finding.

If we initiate a 10% flat tax...we will be bankrupt quicker than we can elect a new President. Those who make more, should pay more. If any kind of flat tax is used (which I'm NOT saying it should be) it would have to be a flat percentage.

It is a fact that the Bush tax cuts benefited the top 2% and did little if anything for the rest of the country. It is also a fact that that tax cut was designed from inception to expire in 10 years.

Everyone is talking about how Obama's policies are ruining America...but no policy fixes anything instantly. They are long term plans. If the Repubs take over Congress and reverse all his policies, we will undoubtedly see failure and guess who they will blame...Obama. We are two years into Obama's administration and barely few months into most of his major policies....what do you expect to see? Any plan needs time to take effect.

sick of it all, Thanks

A flat tax would be ineffective right now. In the UK they use a Value Added Tax (VAT) that is at 17.5% and the PM has asked for an increase to 20.0%. After the economy is healed would be a better time to examine the use of a flat tax or a VAT or a combination to replace the income tax.

President Obama has only been in office 1 1/2 years, so yes his policies have had little time to see results. But it is the job of the party in the minority party to say his policies are not effective in order to gain the upper hand for future elections (2010 & 2012).

Not only would they blame Obama they are currently obstructing everything he is trying to accomplish to get our country back on track.

It is more important for Republicans to regain power than to help fix the ills of our country.

Most in America have had to cut back to survive. Many lost their jobs AND homes. Whether you call it a tax increase or a Bush deficit, the effect is the same. ALL Americans will have to pay more in taxes to support our massively growing Federal Government and entitlement programs. Our Federal Government has been growing in leaps and bounds throughout this recession. Why can't we PERMANENTLY reduce our taxes by getting a grip on Government expansion?

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio

It is more important for Republicans to regain power than to help fix the ills of our country.

The Democrats are no different. They too would sell their children to get re-elected. It's this very issue that makes me want to vote ALL incumbents out of office.

It was classic. Mathews Shredded Dean.

Didn't even have him back for the second airing, and did you happen to notice Joan had a much different attitude the second time?

Hey Joe,

What you might want to consider is the fact that Breitbart has since updated his site since this story first broke. His originally posted video did not include Ms. Sherrod's redemption.

Those are the facts!

Joe, great post.

The conversation your describe mirrors the ones we have with the Lefty Lib crowd here on FR. You can put the facts right in front of their ugly mugs, and they still deny them. They truly do live in another world, one where reality doesn't matter.

"'What you might want to consider is the fact that Breitbart has since updated his site since this story first broke. His originally posted video did not include Ms. Sherrod's redemption."

So, you're saying Wiffleball showed a "doctored" tape??

OK

I'm still LMAO!!!!

Ask Chris if that video was pulld Breitbarts website yesterday or two weeks ago and see who has the egg on their face. The new tape on Breitbarts is not the same one he had up at the start of his charade and anyone who days different is lieing.

Thats right JoAnna, go back try to change the facts to fit your sorry excuse for the truth.

Sayitaintso,

I noticed that. When I first heard the tape it seem different than the one Chris played last night. I am going to look at the ones previously posted and compare to the one Chris played. Something did not sound right and the one Chris played seemed to be a tad longer. Don't know for sure.

It's really funny that the Libs have their panties in a wad with the tape, the NAACP tape, that was shown and are arguing amongst themselves about what is on that tape. The real issue of course is that the too quick to pull the trigger White House, and no not the Ag Sec Vilsack, the White House themselves were the ones that fired Sherrod. And this is the same crew that has their finger The Button. Not too encouraging.

The real issue of course is that Conservatives continue to put their lot in with proven liars. Early on in this story it was widely acknowledged that the picture changed when the "complete" tape surfaced. So Breitbart changed the tape. Conservatives are already losing on this lie, so they double down and bluff. Too late, they've already shown their cards.

My oldest son was once grounded for two months in a conversation that began with him being grounded for a week because he kept telling more lies to cover his lies. Kinda reminds me of the people still defending Breitbart, standing around pointing fingers and screaming "DID TOO!!!"

What also concerns me about this tape is that everybody seems to be forgetting that she said that when the farmer and his wife came in asking for help, she only did "enough" to keep the ball moving. She admitted that she didn't work up to her potential because they were white.

I know she follows that up saying that she eventually realized that white people are just as bad off, but she admitted to being prejudiced in the beginning.

Interesting to read how quickly the Tweedles on the right attempt to exonerate Andrew Breitbart. Matthews (or his staff) did not do his job by looking at the full tape and he is flat wrong, the full tape of her comments has been shown all over the media and clearly proves Breitbart to be what he is--a piece of right-wing extremist garbage.

Cult of Personality

Does it change your opinion of Sherrod to know her father was murdered by a Klansman?

Might that not explain her initial discomfort with the white farmer and her impulse to to send him to a white colleague?

Does it make any difference to you that she was not working at a government agency at the time, but for a non-profit set up to help low income farmers?

Amy,

No it doesn't change my opinion. I knew her father was murdered by a Klansman.

Should all families of 9/11 victims be biased against Muslims?

Why would it make a differnce that she was working for a non-profit agency and not a government agency?

"No it doesn't change my opinion. I knew her father was murdered by a Klansman.

Should all families of 9/11 victims be biased against Muslims?"

OUCH!!!!!

LOL!!!

I watched Matthews at 6PM CDT, and I didn't see Howard Dean at all. I did see Joan Walsh and a guy from Politico talking about Sherrod and Breitbart. At the tail end of the doctored tape that Breitbart first put on his web site, there was one or two sentences from the part of Sherrod's speech where she switched from discussing her initial prejudice toward the white farmer to the part where she went into detail about how she worked hard to help him after the white lawyer she sent him to hadn't done much to help.

The Breitbart version of the tape left the impression that she may have eventually changed her biased attitude, but it also left the false impression that she failed to help the farmer. The farmer himself debunked that. Brietbart also explicitly labeled Sherrod as a racist in his original blog post and claimed the 24-year-old incident occurred in the past year while Sherrod was working for Obama.

The conclusion that Matthews, Walsh, and the Politico guy all agreed to was that the less prejudice-sounding sentence at the end was left in the tape because the hoaxer was incompetent at doctoring videos.

And Walsh, by the way, was 100% right when she criticized Mr. Politico for calling Breitbart a "journalist" when Breitbart is nothing more than a "propagandist." She could have also added that he is a lying creep and dirtbag.

HOWARD DEAN was on first hour of tape they brought in the other guy for 2nd hour the rest of the show was the same

Joe it's no wonder you like Matthews, he's become just like Beck, his research people don't do a vary good job getting the facts before his show, and he's the one who doesn't think he makes mistakes just like Beck, he needs to be renamed Glen Beck Jr.

Hey Joe and Cult of Personality:

No matter how much you two slap each other on the back, you know in your heart that what happened to Mrs. Sherrod was wrong.

And you know that her being honest about her misgivings and honest about what happened is not the problem.

But have your fun . . . you have to do something . . . apparently "admitting when we are wrong" is not part of the conservative "contract with America".

So noted.

Cult of Personality

"Should all families of 9/11 victims be biased against Muslims?" I would say it is human to be biased against a group some of whose members killed your relatives. However, it is divine to resist the impulse to hate, which is exactly what Ms Sherrod did when she put aside her discomfort with the white farmer to champion his cause. Kind of like the New Yorkers who advocate for allowing a mosque to be built near Ground Zero. To hold to your principles against the impuse for revenge is the mark of a higly evolved person, in my opinion.

Cult of Personallity:

What also concerns me about this tape is that everybody seems to be forgetting that she said that when the farmer and his wife came in asking for help, she only did "enough" to keep the ball moving. She admitted that she didn't work up to her potential because they were white.

If you insist on remaining to be duped by Breitbart, there's not much that can be done. But in the UNDOCTORED version of Sherrod's speech, she did explain how she ended up working hard and successfully to help the white farmer. That's why he came out publicly in Sherrod's defense.

And I also think that having her father murdered and the murderer never brought to justice because of the all-white racist grand jury makes a considerable amount of prejudice against white people in general forgivable,although not rational. I'd say the same thing about relatives or victims of the 9/11 attacks harboring prejudice against muslims. Some of them will never get over their resentment of muslims. But Sherrod got over her resentments of white people 24 years ago, Breitbart's doctored tape notwithstanding.

And in that same vein, Amy, would it then not be ok to, say, approve (or be understanding) of a white person's bias against all black people if that white person's mother or father were murdered by a black man?

The answer is no, it still does NOT make racism ok.

Hey, guys. joanna Agent Smith and her bots are too busy on a roll rubbing each others privates on this one. They are too busy "scoring" among themselves and high-fiving each other to listen to anything logical that is being said about the woman.

I had my own concerns about her comments in that she didn't help the people to her greatest ability but I also looked at it in the light that she was an example of what all racists CAN BE in that her parent was killed by racist whites and yet she has risen above racism. She is an example of what we should have in her position.

Jill F., Tulsa, OK"would it then not be ok to, say, approve (or be understanding) of a white person's bias against all black people if that white person's mother or father were murdered by a black man?"

Get real, the extent of this woman's initial descrimination against the white farmer consisted of suggesting he's be better served by one of her white colleagues. That's not exactly dragging him behind a car, is it? Get some perspective, for crying out loud.

Amy, you're the one who posed the question as to whether one's opinion of Shirley Sherrod would change if they had knowledge that her father had been murdered by a klansman. I was simply responding to the ludicrous nature of your thought. I was not offering my opinion on the Shirley Sherrod video. And, further, if a white person was prejudice against black people based on an experience like the one I mentioned, I doubt that their prejudice would amount to "dragging [them] behind a car" either, now, would it? And, further, who said anything about dragging anyone behind a car? I, personally, could care less about this Shirley Sherrod fiasco; it's sensationalistic journalism at its worst (on all sides of the coin)....nothing more, nothing less.

As a regular church goer what inspires me the most about Shirley Sherrod's story is that it's a story of personal salvation from her darker impulses. She resisted the impulse to ignore the suffering of someone for whom she had little natural good will and found herself the better for it. In the end she didn't just do her job, she went beyond what was required of her to do more. It's too bad we can't come together on that point, because given the strong morals they proclaim this story should easily sound familiar to Conservatives http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A25-37&version=NIV .

Mo-1852032

Joe it's no wonder you like Matthews

______________________________

I watch Wiffleball and The Mr.Ed Show because they are the best comedy shows on TV. I don't watch Olbermann because being the planet's biggest pompous A$$ is not funny. And I don't watch Rachel because reminds me of Keanu Reeves in semi-drag.

And I don't watch Rachel because reminds me of Keanu Reeves in semi-drag.

Ha! That's pretty funny. I hadn't considered that. She would probably take that as a compliment. There are some interesting characters on MSNBC, that's for sure. I have found, however, that they really do their homework. They spin it to the left but the basic facts are there and verifiable. I enjoy Rachel's show. Olbermann is way left and needs some new material. The "worst person in the world" is kinda getting old. Ed is just funny. He is such a punching bag sometimes for his guests it's hard to watch. I find I'm laughing and wincing at the same time very often but he can dig up some good dirt from time to time also... Needless to say, you have to take it all with lots of salt like any other news outfit.

"Needless to say, you have to take it all with lots of salt like any other news outfit."

You glorify PMSNBC with the term "news outfit", they are nothing more than the anti-Fox network. A lefty liberal version of the "right" news that the Satan channel they hate delivers.l

Question???
Why do republicans continue to post on MSNBC?
Because they are not talking about Sh!% on Faux News!!!
these Repubicans aren't even talking about anything but what happened in last weeks news!!!
Most people have come to terms with the mistake that occurred with the lady they are speaking of.

The only thing Republicans are about are diversionary tactics and and truth bending!!!

Lots of good news today folks. We got the lien release on the car we just paid off. My wife got the cast off her broken ankle. It looks like the good guys are making a comeback in the polls and the best news of all, Shirley Sherrod is planning to sue the prince of propaganda. You go girl, where do I send my check to help pay for your lawyer?

Oh, and I almost forgot, the queen of racial double-speak up in T-town finally shows her true colors and tells us she doesn't care that a woman, a private citizen, was subjected to a hi-tech lynching and public humliation just so the prince of propaganda could take a shot at the NAACP for calling the Teabaggers out for sheltering known rascist organizations. He said it, I saw him say on the TV.

The new queen of mean revealed. Way to go Jill in T-Town. Home of the famous Tulsa Race War of 1921. The worst race riot in US history prior to the Watts riots of the 1960's. Forty square blocks of North Tulsa (the black wall street) leveled. You should see the panaramic photo of the devesation, it looks like Hiroshima after the bomb.

Hey everybody, let's give it up for Jill. You have shown us your true colors today girl friend.

The real problem with Maddow show is that it is flat "boring" Maybe a personality would help. I usually can't stay awake for an hour of her. She jumped Breitbart about doctoring the tape then showing Ms. Sherrod's repentence. But both she and Olberman neglected to show the final part of the tape in which she said anyone who disagree with the Obama health care program was a rascist. Breitbart, if you read his site, never yelled about Sherrod. His point was the NAACP applauding the early rascist statements. With that said, Breitbart should have posted the whole tape. By posting only a segment, it did make Ms. Sherrod look like a rascist which was wrong

Good to hear things are looking up Skip!

Don't say I didn't worn you about our resident rookie attorney! At least she's cut back on the I...YI...YI...YI... ;0)

Thanks Red, always good to hear from you too.

PEACE

Skip, shut up. I do not see this Shirley Sherrod fiasco as anything but some stupid sensationalistic "reporting", on the part of Andrew Breitbart and every single so-called news outlet in existence today, because that's all this is. That entire episode did one thing and one thing only as far as I'm concerned, and that is that it revealed the gross incompetence of our media.

And you are an idiot for mentioning the Tulsa race riots in reference to your comment about me. You know, I take great offense at anyone attempting to cast me as though I am a racist....if that was the truth, I would by definition have to hate members of my own family. You know nothing about me or my "true colors." You, sir, are pathetic.

Jill, "Shut up"? SHUT UP!? Wound you?

It's Shirley Sherrod who suffered the damage here, at the hands of Andrew Fartbiter and faux news. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, but the original sin in this passion play was Fartbiter's.

Shirley Sherrod was an innocent victim.

I will not shut up when an obviously intelligent person uses clever double-speak to confuse and obscure the issue.

SHUT UP? Aren't you a member of the free speech party? The ones who did away with the Fairness Doctrine in Broadcasting so you could have FREE SPEECH and fill the airwaves with hate mongers such as Rush Limbaugh and Andrew Fartbiter?

YOU SHUT UP!

But before you retire in silence tell me Jill, were you born in Tulsa? Or did you just move there for the overt racism?

NOW YOU SHUT UP!

Hope I didnt wound you.

Oh, and Jill, the racial origins of your family do not give you a passport to support racism and racists, even indirectly. WE ARE ALL OF MIXED RACE, you, me, ALL OF US.

Ok, I'm done, I'm going out to eat with my wife at our favorite asian restaurant.

Have a good weekend folks.

PEACE (you too Jill)

Feisty, too bad you haven't cut back on your vapid posts. And it's "warn", not "worn".

Skip, you continue to convince this board of your idiocy (well, everyone except Feisty) when you post crap like that.

I do not care about Andrew Breitbart, and no, I don't really care about Shirley Sherrod. If the media would have done its job, this would never have even been a story. THAT is what upsets me about this Shirley Sherrod crap.

And, Skip, how dare you accuse me of being a racist? See, that is exactly what is wrong with this country today. Every is running around, pointing fingers, and calling everyone else names, behaving like four-year-old children. But, unfortunately, the names that are being used are serious ones, like "racist". Really, how dare you? You think you've wounded me? Not a chance. It offends me that people who do not even know me would resort to branding me as a racist, but that's par for the course with many of the posters on this blog. And, when you've got nothing else, play the race card, I guess....sad. Very, very sad.

Skip, you are seriously mistaken when you attempt to accuse me of using my family's mixed race ancestry as a "passport" to defend and support racism. If anyone EVER discriminated against or made any racially offensive remark to my niece or nephew EVER, I would throw down in a minute (and I've never been in a fight in my entire life). Continue sitting behind your computer screen, hurling extremely ugly, insulting comments at me all you want if it makes you feel good about yourself. I think it says more about YOU than anything that you are trying to say about me.

And get off your little diatribe about the fairness doctrine...it's getting old, Skip. I'm not a member of the Republican Party (I voted for Drew Edmondson just this week....sad that he didn't win the nomination), but I don't care if that is what you choose to believe. I don't watch Fox News (or MSNBC, for that matter), because it's all crap. The media is failing this country, and nobody even cares. All they care about is watching something that fits nicely into their little ideology; if it doesn't, the channel is changed. And no, Skip, bringing back the fairness doctrine is not the answer; the answer is for the media to DO ITS JOB!

Jill, let's end this. Thanks for voting for Drew, I voted for Jari, I have personal issues with brother edmondson, but like I said, it's personal. Thanks for exercising you right to free speech, please continue to do so.

Jill, I was not the first to launch a nuclear strike or call you names. I did not tell you to SHUT UP, I'm happy for you to rave on. I did not call you "Pathetic" although I fail to understand you stance on Shriley Sherrod. I agree, the media got lazy and there is simply no excuse for that. You would have thought by now that anything promoted by faux news or, in particular, Andrew Brietbart, should be viewed with great suspicion. But the fact remains, by Breitbart's own admission, I saw him say it, he did it to get back at the NAACP. He dipped down into his vaults or went to her personal sources and USED a private citizen for political purposes. Fox (sorry Faux) news then gave him a forum to dessiminate his misinformation and political agenda more widely.

Then here you come wanting to spread the blame. NO! The blame belongs to the propagandist and faux news for publicly pillarying an innocent, private citizen, who just HAPPENS TO BE a woman of color. As an intelligent woman, in my opinion, regardless of your political views, you should be outraged. As a HUMAN BEING you should be outraged. It's not a complicated issue.

Jill, I also respectfully disagree with you regarding the fairness doctrine. It should be reinstated. Rush, Glen, Laura and the gang would have give equal time to the opposition and that would be the end of them using the public airwaves to spew their message.

They could still write books, make public appearances and even go on TV and continue to preach their divisiveness. But when using the public airwaves they would have to provide equal time for opposing views. Period. There is nothing wrong with that. It's FAIR, hence the name.

Despite what you think, I am not a mean-spirited person. And I apologize for any insult I may have given you. But my main points remain. Shirley Sherrod must be made whole and the fairness doctrine would restore balance and a civil discussion to american politics.

You stepped in it darlin', not me, when you said you didn't care anything about Shirley Sherrod, now go out on the back step, scrape it off and move on.

PEACE (and have a good weekend)

And Shirley Sherrod is pursuing her legal remedies in order to be made whole. My point remains: If the media had done its job, this story would not have gone anywhere. I said I do not care about the "Shirley Sherrod fiasco" and I still do not. As far as the person goes, she is a big girl, and she is taking care of herself. I stepped in nothing, so there is nothing to scrape off, as far as I'm concerned; you're the one who took my statement and turned it into something pretty despicable.

If it's ok to spread the wealth, why shouldn't it be equally ok to spread the blame? :-)

I can accept your apology, but if you do not want people believing you are a mean-spirited person, you should use caution in throwing the "r" word around....everyone should. By calling anyone and everyone that word, you actually devalue any real instances of racism that may occur (much like the boy who cried wolf). It unnecessary, it's ugly, and I do not want any part of a dialogue that reduces an argument to such unwarranted name-calling.

We can disagree on the fairness doctrine, as I seriously think that disagreement amongst the citizenry makes for a healthy society. I don't care to listen to any of the crap that is on cable news, because it is just that: crap. And MSNBC is included in that category. I just wish there were real alternatives to cable "opinion-as-fact" news. Right now, there isn't, and I find that utterly discouraging.

And, I will be supporting Jari in November. Isn't it exciting that, as it turns out, Oklahoma will be getting its first-ever female governor?

A "fact" to a Republican is "anything which serves the cause - today."

And they get really touchy if forced to acknowledge "fact" facts - you know, the verifiable, impartial truth!

Limbaugh and Beck could ONLY be Repubs, as they manufacture their "facts" on a show by show basis, which works in perfectly with how Republicans view the world.

No, Republicans, two kangaroos did NOT swim from Australia to Noah's ark, and back, and no, Reagan/Bush did NOT slash the Democratic deficit - they created more debt than any administrations, anywhere, in recorded history.

The bedrock truth is the Republicans took over from Clinton at the height of American power, and left with the U.S. struggling to survive. Any Republicans interested in "truth" truth would have quit the party in shame by now.

Republicans: not the blind leading the blind, but "The sociopaths leading the morons."

Good Morning Jill,

Another day and more of the same. If you wish to continue this discussion please send me a personal email through the newsvine system and I will discuss this with you privately, ad nauseum and ad infinitum.

However, if, as Red suggests, you are really a wolf in sheeps clothing then I seriously doubt you will take me up on my offer because that will not suit your agenda. Oh, I'm sure you'll have a plausible excuse. I realize your email to me will reveal your actual email address and when I respond you will have mine. Jill, I will not share your email address with ANYONE, period. I am not a sexual predator, I'm a 60 year old man who has been married to the same good woman for 32 years. I have a daughter that I suspect is actually older than you. That is my REAL NAME on the header of this response and the real city in which I reside. I've lived here, in the same house on the same street with the same phone number for nearly 30 years. I am listed in the phone book. Since I am former law enforcement my finger prints reside in MANY official files and data bases. You have nothing to fear from me.

I look forward to hearing from you, and thank you for supporting Jari.

PEACE (and have a great weekend up in T town)

tick tick tick tick....that's the clock on the wall as I wait for that email.....

tick tick tick tick.....four hours and counting....

tick tick tick tick.....

Independent,

Great post. I took the liberty of making a copy. Did you see the repugnant story of where Arlington has lost 6,500 of our dead comrades? No excuse for this at all.

IR: Excellent post. I love to read heroic stories of brave Americans. It must have been a pleasure actually visiting with the person you wrote about!

Independent Redneck:

I love you so much for posting this . . . thank you for sharing this and for being one of my favorite truthtellers.

You give me hope.

Thank all of you’ll

Navy yes being located fairly close up here I often see stories of the happenings at Arlington and Walter Reed even if they don’t make the national media. I’m not going to attribute the lack of attention that allowed the situation at Arlington to develop the way it has or for Walter Reed to get in the shape it was several years ago to either Party (It spans several administrations) I do see a lot of push by the present administration to clean a lot of this stuff up and give it the priority that it deserves. Hope it continues

Ron Growing up my son had a great interest in Aviation so he and I made a lot of trips to Air Shows. All of these gentlemen give very generously of their time to interact with folks particularly the children and the chance to speak and listen to them speak is one of the high lights of both his and my life. Mr. Watson especially was very interested in children and could always be depended on to give generously to youth groups and organizations. Got to do it soon though I don’t think that there are but five of the originals left.

Nash only my small contribution to add to Truth that you try to bring to us every chance you get. Thank you for allowing me to help.

IR - Lovely thoughts above - thank you. We're losing that greatest generation way too fast.

Just a heads up about that story @ Arlington:

It's an issue with the maps that are given out to people, not necessarily with the gravestones themselves.

However, given what appears to be the incompetence of the Arlington staff, issues with the gravestones would not shock me in the least.

IR,

I do not remember the name of the young lady that was speaking yesterday on this issue about Arlington, but she was mad at the caretakers for such a gross lack of responsibility. She also did not attribute this to any one party, nor do I either. I hope it gets fixed and soon. As I understand it they only didthe audit on a small portion of the total grounds. I hope this is not one of those tips of the iceberg things. Our dead veterans deserve better than that. I feel very sad for the families, I can only imagine what they must be going through.

Excellent post.

It reminds me of a song from "South Pacific"--"you have to be carefully taught" to hate. There was an subtle, indirect message in that musical which pre-dated the civil rights changes which were to come.

Good Morning I.R.

Wonderful post, thank you for that. I have long been an admirer of the Tuskeege Airmen and their amazing achievements despite many slights and roadblocks by people who should have known better.

That you have had the opportunity to interact with one of them is lovely to hear, how fortunate you are, we have much to learn from them. They are part of our country's treasure and deserve every honor and respect bestowed upon them.

The disgraceful treatment of our servicemen's remains at Arlington is beyond being excusable. How could these so called custodians not have done their job at this most hallowed place? And how could it be so egregious to mixup and or lose over 6,000 who served their country? What will be their punishiment besides losing their jobs....that does not seem enough to me.

Awesome Post IR, Thank You very much for putting this True American Hero on the board for us this morning!

May He Rest In Peace!

IR,

You are a quiet hero, too! Thank you for putting so much in perspective on a regular basis.

And, Navy - that lady was my Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill. and she had the exactly CORRECT response to this national disgrace and it is indeed a problem as the two gentlemen testifying KNEW of cremated remains being dumped in the land fill. It is a National Disgrace that our NATIONAL resting place for HEROES has become yet another bureacracy of excuses and ineptitude. As Ms. McCaskill said yesterday - this one ISN'T complicated. And it MATTERS!

Most Friday afternoon’s I close out my week here later in the afternoon on whatever thread is the most convenient. I think that I’ll leave it here today

To my fellow posters that have left such kind words and thoughts for me here my deepest appreciation.

To those of you out there that may not post here but read anyway I appreciate the time you took to look over what I had to say. I hope that you are able to take a little inspiration forward with you into your weekend and beyond.

To the gentleman that inspired these words I do sincerely hope and pray that from the honored place that you have risen to that you were able to look down and sense the admiration that the author felt in being able to tell your story one more time. Go with God sir.

As always my thanks and appreciation to our hosts for their time, giving me a little place to stand, a subject to comment on, a forum to put it in, and their indulgence when I don’t quite get it right or get a little off subject. I purely do appreciate it. Hope you’ll have a fine weekend and good fun among folks that you know and love. To my fellow participants keep well, keep safe, and keep the faith. We’ll make it. See you’ll next week

Clara KCMO,

Yes she did. Finally somebody that has a backbone. She did you proud, I know I was proud of her statements and sticking to her guns. We need more in the party with her guts. Have a great weekend.

Incompotence in the federal beauracracy knows no political party. From 25 years of contracting with many agencies, it runs in all of them and the waste is huge. The only one I have seen trying to do anything about it is the DOD. At least they have a value added program to analyze purchases. That is why this government data base for health records scares me. Not because the government will do something corrupt. It is because of the levels of incompotence. You want the same people handling Arlington handling your vital data. Best advice!! Invest in some good identity guard protection.

I think you've provided us with the answer of what's wrong, USN. Powerful stuff.

Excellent post, US Navy! Hard to believe about the death benefits for the fallen but more proof that big insurance like so many others will use every trick in the book to make a dollar. Pathetic, simply pathetic.

Last week, I caught Al Franken's comments in an interview. He said he could not speak for his republican colleagues but that he believes they are obstructing jobs creation and help for the economy for one reason: political gain to prevent Pres Obama and democrats from actually helping Americans and getting the economy rolling. True, sadly true.

USN,

I read that and was very angry and disgusted at how badly greed has taken over in the Insurance Industry to the point that they are ACTIVELY screwing over the families that have lost loved ones that were doing their duties for our Nation and made the Ultimate Sacrifice. These Insurance Scam Companies need to be investigated for fraud and malfeasance and the people that made these decisions need to go to prison for a very long time as well as losing all of the money that they made doing this. Those companies need to be fined the full amount that the interest brought in for them PLUS a like amount to make sure that it never happens again. We should 'claw back' all pay and bonuses for the executives and management of those companies and make SURE that they get indicted for fraud or else they will feel free to do this again and again.

Well said, everyone. Insurance companies used to exist to spread risk among many. Now they exist mostly to collect premiums for shareholders and NOT to pay, if at all possible. That's the same reason why, for example, health insurance reform is not enough in the long run. We need health CARE reform, and for everyone.

I don't see where Prudential did anything wrong. If they issued a lump sum check (which would also possibly be a draft), it would be deposited in a bank to earn 1% interest, maybe less. The bank would not pay that 1% out of the goodness of it's heart. That would lose money. So, it would be invested in loans in the longer term and short term government investments in the shorter term, all with the objective of making money from the deposit. I suppose if you wished to destroy the banking and finance industry entirely, you could outlaw banks and financial firms from making interest while they're paying it on money that would otherwise be under the recipient's mattress or sitting in a drawer somewhere.

Ah, but they did everything within their power to hold on to that money in order to earn more for themselves, instead of turning it over to the beneficiary to invest in their own best interest. In the case of Cindy Lohman they invested poorly and LOST her money, though I'll be they collected fees sufficient to keep them whole. As much as Conservatives want to privatize Social Security I'd think you'd sympathize with these people not having power over their own futures.

mad as hell,

my only response is this proves this is a corporate war (undeclared)

and we need to stop it immediately

John B.:

If she had simply acted the day she received the letter, she could have had the money in her own account within a few days. Prudential's approach is far more secure than mailing out a check.

Prudential did nothing wrong here, assuming the information Navy provided is accurate. You also realize that if Prudential had sent a check/draft, they would still be "using" the money until the lady negotiated it?

And aren't you one of the people in another thread that doesn't know the difference between "debt" and "deficit"?

What a joke! On one hand, you want to let taxes be raised on small businesses then you tell them I will LEND you some back. But note these will be TARGETED loans for small business. Which means the businesses we approve of will get some money. The so-called stimulus funds affected less than 5% of small businesses. You need across the board tax cuts that stimulate 100% of small businesses. Taxes going up in January will throw a wet blanket over any growth and drop us into a double dip recession. This not only came from Republicans but Democrats like Sen. Ben Nelson(D), Sen. Evan Byah, and Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke all said the same thing this week. With unsure costs from health care, cap and trade, and upcoming tax increases, no small businessman will hire people. It would be a huge gamble with this economy. Show me a recession where tax cuts did not work. They worked for Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush. Raising taxes have never gotten us out of a recession and won't now.

OK Richard, you're OK with giving the beneficiaries of our soldiers "check books" which are in fact ways of withdrawing from insecure financial instruments which could become worthless at any moment. Blame the victims. Way to treat the people who serve our armed forces. Caveat Emptor. Can't you see that this constant victimization of people of normal means by those with all the advantages is destroying our society? Once people no longer trust the free market it falls to pieces. That's why proper regulation to ensure fairness is the only way to protect what generations of Americans have built.

I understand the difference between deficit and debt perfectly. You're the one who seeks to mislead by noting that a short time of Clinton Administration surpluses didn't wipe out all the debt accumulated over the history of the United States. Clinton ran a surplus late in his presidency. It didn't erase the debt because we didn't continue those policies long enough, throwing it away on tax cuts for the wealthy instead. Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II ran deficits. Deficits sufficient to accumulate 2/3 of the ENTIRE Federal debt.

Tell me again how I don't understand the difference.

Joe,

Yep, he sure was fired up but I do not think he was to far off, especially when the republican kept trying to cut him off. Was kinda like watching Chris Mathews to a point.

Glad you brought this up Joe . . . good to see a member of Congress actually give a damn about something other than themselves.

Way to go Congressman Weiner!

Thanks to Congressman Weiner, someone who's proven himself willing to stand up for people who need help, instead of being a yes man for the powerful.

Swamp Queen Pelosi- here we go with the labels of the conservatives propaganda machine. Yawn!

These are the same idiots who are relishing that Breibart will be attending the RNC campaign fundraiser. Their fear and smear hero. Doesn't get any better than this from now till election day. It appears another typical GOP election cycle in full spin. Who would have thought?

As far as letting the Bush deficit increasing tax cuts expire - unless you can somehow increase demand for products, no amount of deficit increasing tax cuts will ever produce jobs. This is basic economics, even for small businesses. This is nothing but typical rhetoric that has been designed to fool the majority of us ( they hope). Mr. President, I hope you veto all of these deficit increasing tax cuts, especially anyone making less than 250k as well because it won't be enough to produce squat. A small business owner back when Bush was enacting the deficit increasing tax cuts told me he wanted them so he would be able to grow his business and add employees. After watching this go into effect, he never produced any jobs till this day. America please don't be hood winked, these defecit increasing tax cuts will never help.

When the right starts using SwampQueens and comrades, any valid discussion contained within it loses credibility.

Cheers to Rep Weiner for actually representing the American people.

I heard Weiner recently got married, or is going to soon. I think there is more pressure on the weiner (alternate pronunciation "whiner") than the Weiner can handle. We should be more understanding in those circumstances.

"When the right starts using SwampQueens and comrades, any valid discussion contained within it loses credibility."

Jody, I'll grant you that the "comrades" bit was gratuituous. But, when the Speaker of the House declares she will "run the most ethical Congress ever" and "will drain the swamp" and then DOESN'T DO SO, she 'loses credibility" and the royal title of "Swamp Queen' is more than deserved.

actually he was commenting on how cowardly the republicans are not on the vote its self,because many republicans wanted to vote for it and said so publicly,than voted against it (cowards)

an up or down vote requires a two thirds majority and dems don't have a two thirds majority

Jody, have you actually been reading the posts on here. Although you are right that name calling is childish. The post from the left calling names are about 10 to 1. How about everyone stop with the name calling. Really doesn't help make your point.

If you are going to chastise the Republicans for voting against the 9/11 health bill then you ought to get why they did correct. Again the Democrats like Weiner demagog but don't want you to know what they threw into this bill. If they had offered a clean bill up front it would have passed without any problem. They were told that by Boehner. But they just couldn't do that. They hid some provisions in the back end of this bill to benefit illegal aliens, such as blocking the deportation of illegal aliens going to school and other benefits. Republican told Weiner and the Dems they could not support this bill with these provisions. So they tried to fast track the bill to cut off the chance to add any amendments to remove these provisions. By adding the amendments to remove these, it would make the Democrats go on the record for or against these immigration provisions. Then when it did get voted down, the Democrats like Weiner played politics by saying the Republicans were against money for the 9/11 first responders. If they want to be honest, the Democrats should put this bill up clean with no add ons. Then it will pass with no problems.

The 2Q slowdown was driven by Grease and Europe. This should not have been a surprise to anyone since Europe is our largest customer of US goods.

"Grease"? Come'on Dennis. I expect this from the low-brow libs like Feisty, but not you. You're much better then that.

Also, it appears the grading of Obama and the Democrats on a curve continues.

JoAnna,

Just repeating what economists said this morning on CNBC and on CNN.

lol

Glad you enjoyed watching your President on The View JoAnna . . . handsome fellow, isn't he? ;o)

Intelligence, compassion, and strength are always attractive, Nash. And a wicked sense of humor doesn't hurt.

Joanna what would those numbers have been if McCain/Palin were in the White-house? I mean you come on here with your rants about how bad everything is but what would it be like if the Republicans would have won? They could not cut taxes on the wealthy anymore because most of them don't even pay taxes now, since tax cuts are the only thing in the Republican play book it is safe to say that things would be much worse if the Republicans were in power, probably would have been another Great Depression.

Joanna

Oohh....ooohhh.... pick me!!! I know where the money went!!!!

SEIU, the Radke brothers and the unions!!!!

Coz remember Barry told SEIU that he was going to talk to them before making economic desicions.....

I love that my tax dollars are going to the unions!!!!

Not at all surprising that these numbers are coming up that way. A week ago today I sat in on a webinar that was specifically about the economic outlook for my industry. The lead Economist was absolutely firm in his position that a slowdown in the economy was expected, that it come would just about now, and that this recovery is indistinguishable from the 2000 and 1991 recoveries. The only difference being that the bubble was blown larger pre-recession so we fell farther.

JoAnnaSmith

Also, it appears the grading of Obama and the Democrats on a curve continues

.....................................................................................

That happens all the time when you righties do it.

..................................................................................

My Respose to You From Yesterday

Well, the only problem is that Obama will have to debate something he didn't have to deal with during his campaign in 2008. His record. Barack will have to use his 'analytical policy wonk' skills to explain the 10% unemployment rate. And it's doubtful the Republican nominee will want to eat Barack's lunch, which appears to be crow at the moment

Classy Bevvy. Real classy

Oh, and LOL!

..............................................................................................

Lady JoAnna

I'll let you reconsider that stance before I do.

The Bush administration created about three million jobs (net) over its eight years. On the Truth-0-Meter by comparsion--" With the notable exception of conservatives, the independent economists who have produced studies agree that the stimulus has saved or created upwards of 1 million jobs, and that the bill will likely create another million or so jobs in 2010."

You can fact that statement at politifact.

Ignorance is the most outstanding commodity the Republican and reptiallian brain Tea Baggers can give their minions. FYI: Defiects are surpluses for the rich republivans. You are no oracle I hope you enjoy your day.

Cheers

Were You paying attention? The president did starting with the 750,000 jobs lost a month in the BO era (Before Obama). I was told to lay off Bush so I did by presenting my way of factuily not using Bush's name. I hope you enjoyed your lunch JoAnna

How do you fathom the "political theater of the "SENATE REPUBLICANS BLOCKING THE BILL SUPPORTING SMALL BUSINESSES? For certain,, you don't think GOP senators are helping small businesses? Beyond all doubt, losing any jobs is bad news. However, you, no doubt, don't listen well because that is the difference between Republican and Democratic economic policies. Obviously, when jobs have been added due to the stimulus, home buyers were able to purchase a home with a tax credit, the cash for clunkers, should be noted amongst the other infrastustuctre jobs. Hint: Hell, just today Mitch McConnell, House Republican leadership is urging members to vote against a bill that would aid 9/11 responders suffering from health problems.

JoAnna: What's wrong with The View? You have something against average Americans who like their President and were happy to see him? I thought he came across as very friendly and you know, intelligent. Why shouldn't he go on there? It beats the political shows on Sunday mornings where it's just nonsense.

This program yesterday was warm, fun and welcoming. Especially for you know - Average Americans who vote, who have families, who have concerns. He made his case beautifully on all he's been trying to deal with after years of neglect during the Bush Adm. on just about everything. Actually, "not just about everything". I should said "everything".

Why is that? Could it be that republicans have blocked every attempt to help the American people and move the economy? They refused to add any unfunded spending to boost the economy (which even republican economists say is an absolute necessity) yet are perfectly willing to extend the Bush tax cuts to the weathiest 2% without funding them. Ever hear a republican say "for the middle class"? Ahhh, yes, the GOP has once again fooled the easily fooled.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Not at all surprising that these numbers are coming up that way.

That's odd. Obama's own OMB predicted growth would be 3.2% for the year. And they did this just days ago.

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/110663-obama-budget-office-forecasts-147t-deficit-high-unemployment?page=3

It would be hard for someone, whose mind never opens to view the bigger world, recognize how intelligent our President is. It doesn't hurt that he has a grace and elegance to comport himself well in any situation.

Not recognizing these admirable qualities shows a very narrow and bitter mind set.

Bev, it's a struggle reading your posts, you're writing style is difficult to figure out.

What I do get is you're saying the Republicans blocked some government small business program the Democrats proposed.

Bev, just when are you going to get it? The government can't kick start the economy by continaully running up the deficit, a deficit that only pays off the unions rather then stimulate the economy. It's time Obama admitted that his deficit funded economic programs are complete failures, they have not stimulated the economy, they have not made a "job making machine", they have not ramped up private sector hiring, they have not increased the GDP. And Obama and the Democrats doing more of the same will conclude with the same result, failure.

So please, lets knock off the old rant of yours about the "Republicans are evil" crap. Fiscal sanity must return to Wash DC, and soon.

w bush

Joanna what would those numbers have been if McCain/Palin were in the White-house?

I don't know, you tell me. Use your crystal ball or tarot cards and come up with an answer.

Why is it that you lefties have your dream president and dream congress, and that's all you can talk about is how bad Bush is, and what would McCain do? You lefties have been pushing this Obama character as the answer to every problem, and he's been a complete failure since he took office. And instead of admitting this failure, you continaully point fingers, continue to compare Obama to Bush and to Reagan and to McCain. You lefties promised Obama would be better then all of these Republicans put together. Like Joe Wilson said, "You Lie"!

Pat, I would prefer my President at a press conference, answering questions that are not pre-planned and actually facing the music, not at some silly little daytime talk show that discusses tabloid news. Of course he looked great on The View; they aren't really known for making their guests look bad, you know.

It is so funny to hear the same folks who just ran the U.S. economy over a freaking cliff ranting and railing about "fiscal sanity". And with a straight face!

But of course, there is no need to "fund" tax cuts for the rich . . . hell, that magically pays for itself they tell us.

Biggest balls on Earth I tell you . . . and folks actually believe this crap!

JoAnna S,

For someone who likes to point fingers saying "You Lie" you really toss some whoppers around, I mean really, President Obama has been a failure, what world is it that you inhabit? He managed to keep us out of a full blown depression, he stopped the MASSIVE job loss started on the Repub dime, and while the stimulus has not done as well as anyone would have liked, it has Certainly been better than not doing it, which is what YOU seem to think should have happened. Your lies and distractions, cut and pasting nonsense has gotten to the point where us progressives just sit back and laugh at how you twist and turn in the wind trying to keep your lies on track in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The Repubs are actively helping the Corporations destroy America and you are actively helping them. Which corporation is paying you to do this, or are you working directly for the RNC? Obviously you are so far from reality that if you came back to it you would die of a heart attack when you realized the damage that you are trying to cause is all for naught because we can plainly SEE through your lies. Instead of accepting the failures of the Bush II Admin, Reagan Admin, Bush the 1st's Admin, you have to lie about Pres. Obama's many achievements just to justify yourself to yourself, but America is not buying your inane drivel, we KNOW better, having been lied to enough that we see it for what it clearly is BULLSH!T! So far Pres. Obama has done more, in a shorter time, with more problems left for him by his predecessor than ANY other President in modern history, so knock off with your lies and get a real clue: Your lies make it much easier for us Dems to win this November as everyone can see that the right has nothing to bring to the table but lies, distortions, huge deficits and NOthing else!

"That's odd. Obama's own OMB predicted growth would be 3.2% for the year. And they did this just days ago."

Perhaps, JoAnna, you don't understand statistics. Growth could easily be down for the QUARTER and still be 3.2% for the YEAR. For future reference a quarter is 3 months, or 1/4 of a year.

John B, Des Moines, IA

"That's odd. Obama's own OMB predicted growth would be 3.2% for the year. And they did this just days ago."

Perhaps, JoAnna, you don't understand statistics. Growth could easily be down for the QUARTER and still be 3.2% for the YEAR. For future reference a quarter is 3 months, or 1/4 of a year.

The problem is John that when your predictions don't come true on the early intervals, and in fact are off by 25% to the bad side, then you have to really have things go your favor later on. Obama's projections will need 5-6% growth rates in the next quarters to even come close to their overall predictions. There is no economist out there that is projection that kind of growth.

Let's be honest. The only real jobs that government creates are the ones who work for the federal govt. The only way govt. can create private jobs is to get out of the way of business. Every regulation that government passes has a dollar cost. If you are spending money on regulation, you can't hire more workers. More and more regualtion, less and less hiring!! As in the case of the Gulf, more regulation won't do anything. They weren't enforcing the ones at the time.

The problem with the View is that even though popular in it's time slot. The number of people watching were small in comparison to prime time. He was shooting for their audience though which is large part white women. He has had a huge drop in that category since the election. In the 2008 vote, it was 58 to 42% for him, now it is 55-45% against and still dropping. He was simply trying to turn that number around. I don't think it will work. At that time he was seen as a racial unifier, now he is seen as a racial divider.

The 3rd quarter numbers and 4th quarter projections look worse than the 2nd quarter this is according to the Wall Street Journal and the Chamber of Commerce. A WSJ/Fox poll today shows 59% of Americans think the economy is getting worse. The 2nd quarter showed 2.4% growth which is about even with inflation. This mean we aren't growing but just treading water. If it comes in less in the 3rd quarter, we may be looking at a double dip recession. There is only so much stimulus you can do. For any growth, the private marketplace must take off. With taxes going up, Cap and Trade, and Health care up in the air. Business is just sitting on 2 trillion dollars of capital. The Obama administration and Congress are perceived as anti-business and it is a major problem. The more the Progressives pass, the more it is killing the economy. You can't demonize business then ask them to bail you out of the fire. No matter how you spin it, the economy is the big thing in the 2010 mid terms. You can blame Bush all you want but the election will be a afformation on the job Obama is doing. As of now, he is a failure and his stimulus is a giant flop.

BeHonest, what you said is exactly what I am taking about. You rant and demonize those evil corporations and say they are trying to destroy America. All those corporation want to do is make money, period. They want a stable, predictable marketplace where they can predict costs and plan their operation. Most could care less about Democrats or Republicans unless they are trying to pass legislation that affect their business. Obama and the Democrats have passed huge legislation during a recession. They have made costs for a lot of businesses very unpredictable. Whether you are for or against the legislation, you must admit we don't know how much this will cost. All we can do is guess. So most businesses are just choosing to sit on their money to see how this shakes out. If Obama and the Democrats wanted to do all of these major programs, they should have gotten the economy going first then tried to pass the legislation. As of now, the economy is the 800 lbs gorilla in the room. Does not matter what the other accomplishments are. It will be Obama's Waterloo. No matter how good the President says things are. The American people see the numbers and the people out of work.

Ray,

Yes, when people see the numbers, they are going to be mad. Those numbers, particularly the ones that show the corporations that ARE NOT HIRING are making RECORD PROFITS, are going to make them hellaciously mad especially if they are ones that USED to work for those same corporations and were laid off. The Corps claiming that "Uncertainty" is their reason for not hiring is plain drivel, they have more money now than ever, especially with some 1.2 Trillion dollars a year PROFITS above and beyond all costs of doing business and their excessive management pay, and pay less taxes on that than they have in the last 60 years, that is Plenty enough to make them mad.

Yes, the voters are going to be mad, but not at the Dems who made sure that the poor and unemployed were able to eat and keep their homes. They are going to be mad at the Repubs who keep voting NO in lockstep against everything that could be getting the economy back on track so that those jobs will come back. Those that read the threads here at FR will be Mad at all of the Tea Bloggers and their self-serving lies for the Repub Corporate Apologists and will be MUCH more likely to vote Dem in November.

Yes, the public will be mad, but not at who you think they will be, they will be mad at the lying Repub obstructionists and their paid helpers and the Repubs will be further out of power than they are now.

Great post Pat . . . and thanks for the history lesson . . . nice to see the many facets of our elected leaders.

Pat:

You may be the most informed person on Richard Nixon in the entire state of MA. Personally, I did not like the man very much as I thought Nixon and the people around him were crooks. You get extra credit for studying a man with so many flaws.

Pat

Thanks for giving Lady JoAnna Smith more recent statical fact. Since she has a propensity to ignore facts; I seriously doubt if it will make a dent in her skull.

Ron, what can I say? LOL. I find him fascinating for some reason. I guess for a man to be up against the Kennedys his entire life and still survive (until '74) is intriguing to me. But I agree with your assessment. Heck, I've studied Adolph Hitler. I guess it is the ones you don't like who end up being the most interesting to read about.

Nixon on the one hand seemed like a really nice man, a devoted father, with a good sense of humor. Very smart as well. But then on the other hand, his paranoia got the best of him. And when you have an enemies list made up of American journalists, actors and musicians, then something's wrong with the man.

Thanks Nash. I do love the different facets of our ex-presidents very much.

Well said, Pat. And I agree with the others--you really have a wealth of information and I am glad you share it.

I taped The View and enjoyed watching it, he seemed to enjoy it and did a terrific job answering questions. Pres Obama and his team realize we are in the 21st century and stuffy notions about presidents appearing on regular shows is proven wrong by the jump in viewership.

Nixon was an odd guy and I did not like him much personally despite his accomplishments; from what I've read he treated his wife badly. LBJ was another one who did a lot of good things, was a tough politician but he was what I'd call uncouth and outright disgusting off camera; quite a womanizer. I don't know how Lady Bird could put up with his escapades under her nose.

Pat, Boston, MA

I watched President Obama on The View. I thought he did a great job of explaining to Elizabeth Hasselbeck what the Administration is doing to get people working again. The most important thing to come out was the fact that 8.5 million jobs were saved. That is no small accomplishment.

No small accomplishment indeed. In making crap up.

Please, do tell, what exactly is a "saved job". I look forward to your explanation.

"Please do tell...."

Are you serious?! Lol.

YOUR party screwed this country up. You want to continue to lie to yourself? Be our guest. It's very entertaining. YOUR party does not want to do one thing for people in this country. I hope you're proud of yourself for supporting that stance.

And take your "please, do tells" somewhere else.

city bus drivers, police ,firefighters,garbage collector's,city water treatment operators,city sewer treatment operators,county waste disposal services,county roads workers,state highway workers,state police, county police,teachers,city health inspectors, county health inspectors,city and county and state building permits and inspection inspectors.

god i could go on and on and they all recreate jobs in the private sector,for instance if a highway inspector sees a pot hole he calls the highwat dept.if it is to big of a job they contract out to the private sector and then the circle is complete

and as the owner of a union contracting co. i know this system well

RON-985952

city bus drivers, police ,firefighters,garbage collector's,city water treatment operators,city sewer treatment operators,county waste disposal services,county roads workers,state highway workers,state police, county police,teachers,city health inspectors, county health inspectors,city and county and state building permits and inspection inspectors

And all these "saved" jobs, interesting they are all government jobs, but they go away this year because the feds won't bail the states out again, correct?Because there is not one state government out there who is better off economically then they were last year, and many in fact are worse off. So in effect, unless the feds to permanently fund the states governments with federal deficit spending, those jobs are history.

Obama also claimed "1 million jobs saved by bailing out Chrysler and GM". Really? So what Obama is trying to sell us is that the market share GM lost would not have been picked by Ford, Honda, and Toyota, like they would be in any capitalistic environment? Yet another fantasy.

You have no idea what a "saved" job is. You're just as full of crap as Obama is.

once again you are wrong these saved jobs have a direct effect on all the other jobs that's my point ,no man is an island every one is connected one way or another and although i have the inclination to explain it all to you,unfortunately i don't have the time,

Pat, that is the most bogus statistic invented. Do you know how they calculated "Jobs Saved"? Any company or government agency that received Stimulus money was counted as a job saved. All of their employees. Most of the companies would not have laid off all their employees. In one school system, they counted every teacher as saved. Even the school superintendent said it probably saved 5 or 6 jobs not 400. This is an invented number which they can't document. The only way the green jobs can be viable in the long run is if Cap and Trade passes. Because most green energy is much more expense than fossil fuels. But Congress can't pass such a large tax increase during the recession. If the stimulus had saved or created 500,000 jobs we would be seeing some progressive. Unemployment is at 9.5% and with 1.5 million over a year and not counted, it is probably actually at 14 or 15% according to the Wall Street Journal. He can spin it however he wants but we still have a major unemployment problem. He was elected to fix the problem, not to say it is Bush's fault. Bottom line is his solution hasn't worked and is showing no sign of working.

NF, great post, I'm with you all the way! Keep pushing that post till election day and even further. Thanks again.

Thanks for your input American Joe!

Nashville,

Great post. Kinda really sums it all up.

Nashville Fan

Bring it on Madam and don't ever stop.

Here are a couple of sites for you and anyone else wanting to bring control back to the people rather than the corporations:

www.reclaimdemocracy.org

www.wilpf.org

They both have a wealth of information about how and why things came about and what we need to do about changing things to make thing right and take back control.

Terrific post. I had not heard that and it should be headline, breaking news on the MSM.

Steven,

Thank you so much for your input and the links!

Jody,

Somehow I missed your comment the first time . . . it is amazing what our current "newstainment" industry chooses to ignore . . . thanks for commenting.

Count me in on the fair tax (national sales tax) and elimination of the income tax system, individual and corporate.

Make sure there are safeguards against wealthy politicians going directly to New Zealand to buy their yachts.

They ignored Bernie Madoff's generous support of Democrats for a long time, maybe forever now. Just be patient.

However, I did notice that the article I read lead off with the fact that the Wylys supported Republicans. Actually highlighted it, in fact.

I have to question the source of the article, though. I found it on MSN.

Hey there Richard . . .

I am open to all options when it comes to fixing our broken tax code. Just wish our country could have some real policy discussions and not just political theater all the time.

Thanks for commenting.

If the guy cheated then throw him in jail. Just like they should do with Rangel. But why is it that if you are successful, the first thing the Democrats want to do is punish you. Remember IRS facts tell us that this upper 20% of the income earners pay most of the taxes. Obviously, there may be a few who cheat and should be held accountable. But the vast majority are paying their taxes. Why don't the Democrats go to these business people and ask them what they need to employ more people. Instead they constantly demonize them and throw road blocks in their way

Really?! And I miss it, every single day because this commie (straight) liberal is out working for a living.

Just goes to show, doesn't it?

But how did YOU manage to see it? Or are you just into Tupperware parties from Hell? Kinky.

Funny, I do not remember Tupperware Parties mentioned Anywhere in Dante's Inferno......

Bring on the rage. No sense in doing anything different.

RESULTS not message. You are running things and have both houses of Congress. You can blame Bush all you want but when you are driving. You get the blame of where the bus goes.

Terrific post, Terry. I saw that about the dam; now they want help but before that, the government was too restrictive, too much interference. I sympathize with those who were harmed by the dam's failure but they made the choice or at least did not pay enough attention to those who made it for them.

Terry:

If the tax cuts are eliminated, which direction do tax rates go?

They go up or they remain the same.

Democrats have already stated their preference that they go up.

I want them to stay the same.

I say "YES" to extending the Bush Tax Cuts. The Democrats are the party of NO on this issue.

At least from my perspective.

Terry, after Bush and Congress passed the tax cuts, unemployment went down to 4.2% and stayed there until the sub prime housing bubble burst in 2008.

Okay, so we vote the Democrats out and vote the Republicans in.

Then what?

Can't argue with you there dangerfield. Voters moods in November will be most impacted by their personal economic situations and what they have or do not have in their bank accounts.

The economy is still struggling. But rather than just react and take it out on those in power (Dems and Obama) let's hope the voters first take a real hard look at what the Republicans are propsoing to improve the economy, and I'm not talking about generic talking points, but the details of any plans they have or may have. The economy may still be riding in rough waters as we round the Horn but we need to be careful not to make a major change that would result in the sinking of the ship for your average Amercian while allowing the wealthiest to continue padding their bank accounts.

Just when the Democrats need to have things break there way for the fall election, they instead are getting hammered on the economic front with this latest news, on the ethics front with Mr. Rangel, and on the legal front with ruling on Arizona's attempt to enforce illegal immigration laws (Think that ruling stirred up the voters of the country, most of which support the AZ law?). Throw in the CBO report saying these record deficit's Obama is running are unsustainable and will harm the long-term outlook of the country, just what do the Democrats expect to run on this fall?

Then what?

Well, either the employment and economy picture improves over the next 12-18 months and the newbies in congress get to take some of the credit (deserved or not) for the improvement. And whoever is in control of congress, everyone hopes things do get better, or things continue to crawl along at a snail's pace and the newbies are the new contestants in "the pottery barn game", where if you hold it for more than a year, we don't care who broke it, you OWN it.

Playing devils advocate here, what do you think would have happened to the economy if Congress as a whole would have worked together with a little give and take?

dangerfield,

One thing that baffles me about you is how you will know something is not true, but because other people will believe it is true, then that should lead President Obama to . . .

This is where I get confused.

I mean, if a large percentage of Americans believe stuff that is not true, it would seem the issue would be, why?

But instead, we get a passive acceptance of the fact that Americans have irrational and illogical beliefs, and folks vote based on these erroneous beliefs.

So, again I way, GO FOR IT AMERICA!

I mean, if truth is not the object of the game, then what is the point anyway?

Vote for whatever make you feel good America, facts be darned.

That'll show 'em.

dangerfield,

One thing that baffles me about you is how you will know something is not true, but because other people will believe it is true, then that should lead President Obama to . . .

Truth and facts are "concepts" that both conservatives and liberals believe they each "own", and that the other side does not. Many here trumpet their FACTS as TRUTH, and are angered when it is pointed out that trial lawyers, debating teams and POLITICIANS all use the same FACTS to make completely OPPOSING arguments. The truth is often obscured by rhetoric that is big on heat, but short on light, like here.

Not having a job is a FACT. Losing your home is a FACT. Having to cut back on your retirement dreams is a FACT. Who you blame is an OPINION. Republicans still try to blame President Clinton for problems in domestic and foreign policy, and he hasn't been in office for a decade. The electorate can only deal with what is happening now. The president and the party in power are the only ones who can be held responsible and either rewarded with re election or punished by being voted out. While I would love the world to be the way I want it, the world and human nature are what they are, and failing to recognize that FACT will leave you hurt, disappointed and baying at the moon, or railing at the nearest, most convenient target...

And, don't forget that next Friday is the release of the July jobs report from the USDOL. Given today's Q2 GDP report it's probably gonna be really ugly. Sorta like a picture of Swamp Queen Pelosi with "Cheater"Charlie's image superimposed.

Nashville:

When it comes to elections many voters do not vote on their beliefs but on what others tell them their beliefs should be. We know that the Republicans are excellent at this game. Rather than study the facts and determine just why we are in this economic mess many voters will see that they no longer have a paycheck coming in ,or that their pay has decreased, or that they lost their house, or that their insurance premiums have gone up, or that they can't get credit any longer, or that they can't send their kid to school, or that the unemoployment numbers are up, etc. And if repeated enough by the Republicans that all the above is the Dems and Obama's fault that is what they will believe. The Republicans don't have to prove it. Nor do they have to offer any specific plans to improve these issues. All they have to do is use repetitive generic talkng points and that is what many Amercians will come to believe. Are these accusations often irrational? Yes. Are they often illogical? Yes. Does it matter? No.

dangerfield and CA:

I do understand the point you are making about the realities of our current political system. And I don't have a problem with folks blaming whoever they want.

I do have a problem with the casual way we accept the fact that many Americans believe things that are not true.

I have a real problem with that, and I think that is one of the fundamental problems, misinformation leading to bad decisions.

Until that is addressed, it really doesn't matter who is "in power", since the American electorate can easily be "managed" via "misniformation".

Why are so many folks so comfortable with our "swift boating" and "death panel" culture?

Why are lies accepted as "normal" in the American media?

What happened to us?

What happened to us is that the media no longer serves the same purpose as it used to, which is to provide information. Now, it's all about entertainment value. The American people have allowed this to happen, because it is more pleasant to listen to commentators masquerading as unbiased journalists (on both sides of the aisle) than to listen to facts that may not necessarily fit in with their preferred political viewpoint. So, we all share in the blame, Republicans and Democrats alike. If you want to think or believe that MSNBC is any less biased than Fox News, you're a part of the problem (and vice versa). Until Americans are willing to step out of their political comfort zones and demand that the media do its job and provide factual information as opposed to opinion in the guise of factual information, nothing will ever change.

It's obvious reading the teagagger republican posts on here today their still hoping the Economy and America fails so they can win in November, and they call themselves proud Americans. Proud of what teabagger republicans?

I agree 100% Jill, we all here need to get behind Jill's post and make our media report the facts and not the BS that get them ratings. Come on folks if everybody on this board gets behind Jill on this we can start changing the way the media reports the so called news. So comment on her post lets see who is actually behind her. This is a challenge to everyone.

And republicans have done exactly WHAT to help fix the economy? Nothing.

The repubs pretend to care by talking about the debt and their children and grandchildren--but in the next breath support adding more debt to continue the Bush tax cuts for the weathiest 2% of the country--for that spending, there is not need to worry about the debt. How many jobs did the $2 trillion in tax cuts add to the economy from 2001-2008? 3 million--that's a lot of debt per job created.

Did you folks notice that in one post JoAnna slams "Obama's CBO" and in the next is using their numbers to try to slam Pres. Obama?? I think it is pretty funny that the right will lie out of both sides of their mouth and expect us to believe them, especially after we had to listen/watch Bush and his cronies lie for 8 years. Must take some serious training to be able to lie like that, the truth is sooo much easier because it is backed up by the facts!

Jill,

I agree 100% . . . it would be nice if we could unite behind this one small effort . . . truth in media.

That's a start.

B. Honest

"the truth is sooo much easier because it is backed up by the facts!"...but whose "truth"? supported by which "facts"? That depends...

Republicans believe their truths are as true as Democrats believe theirs are...and extremists and zealots are immune to any contradictory "facts" or "truths" piercing their bubble.

"Truth and facts are "concepts" that both conservatives and liberals believe they each "own", and that the other side does not. Many here trumpet their FACTS as TRUTH, and are angered when it is pointed out that trial lawyers, debating teams and POLITICIANS all use the same FACTS to make completely OPPOSING arguments. The truth is often obscured by rhetoric that is big on heat, but short on light, like here."

Nash, I don't know if you ever watch Bill Mauer on HBO; but he had Janeane Garafalo and David Frum (sp?) on and she HAMMERED away at him for his cynicism in perpetuating a known lie for the 'benefit' of the intellectually challenged. It is what now passes for truth and it happens EVERY day on EVERY topic. Don't like the poll? There will be another one tomorrow more to your liking. As the Daily KOS recently discovered - with ANY poll - you are getting what you pay for. Honest brokers no longer exist. I learned this lesson within my first year of college graduation - working for Arthur Andersen (yes, Enron) - We weren't encouraged to build the BEST mousetrap in our Total Quality Leadership training. We were told to READ the Metrics of the job request and maximize our profits for the company. Period. That has been the mentality of Business, Politics and Society for AT LEAST the last 20 years. Quality really isn't even in the TOP 5 talking points on anybody's business model - although ironically, it will be mentioned in almost EVERY Mission Statement, go figure. We don't need to dwell on HOW we got here; but rather accept where we are and FIND a way forward. If you don't have ideas about that, you're just blame gaming and we can't afford your cynicism,...at least that's where I am today - I see another dumbass post about how great Bush was or how great leadership under Gidget and the Geezer would have been and I may change my mind.

While MSNBC's nightly lineup is lead by progressives, it remains a far more fair and balanced choice than FOX. They do not report lies as truth.

Wow, Clara . . . I LOVED your post . . . and the passion with which it was delivered!

You know, I think it would be a great start for TV news and opinion shows to review what each and every guest says on their show , and if they find something that is not true or if it is a misleading twisting of the facts, they should CORRECT it ON THE AIR on the SAME PROGRAM in the SAME TIME SLOT as soon as possible, (preferably the next day) and post it online as well.

I mean, there is just no excuse for folks being able to tell known and proven lies without it being corrected.

EDIT: Clara, I have seen Bill Mauer's show, but I don't have HBO at home, so usually it is when I am on vacation! :o)

"While MSNBC's nightly lineup is lead by progressives, it remains a far more fair and balanced choice than FOX. They do not report lies as truth."

To many of us they are both no better than the cartoon network as news sources. They are biased and selective in what they present and how it is FRAMED.

You would be better informed devoting an hour to Stewart and Colbert on Comedy Central, than to any of the "personalities" on any of the cable news channels. Yet programs and news articles that attempt the very balance decried as lacking in the "media" here are ignored, attacked or given short-shrift when presented here. If you want biased media, or balanced media, all you have to do is vote with your remote, and many here vote their personal bias daily.

Cable news for 7/28

P2+ Prime Time
FNC – 2,187,000 viewers
CNN – 630,000 viewers
MSNBC –670,000 viewers
CNBC – 201,000 viewers
HLN – 466,000 viewers

http://tvbythenumbers.com/category/ratings/top-news/cable-news

FNC has about the same # of viewers as all of the other cable stations combined.

But PBS has far more viewers than Fox...

"According to A.C. Nielsen, the program reaches 99% of the nation's television households. Nearly 2.7 million people tune in to "PBS NewsHour" each weeknight (1.4 HH rating) and more than 8 million unduplicated viewers watch at least one night a week. In addition, the program has been singled out in surveys as America's most credible news program."

http://www.weta.org/about/press/kits/627

Swear off the cable shows. Watch PBS for a week.

Clara, you make a HUGE point about business ethics. In many cases what passes for "ethics" is just window dressing hiding the fact that the only thing for which anyone is really answerable is making more money. I spent 8 1/2yrs working for a company that spent a lot of time and energy establishing how honest they are. Needless to say the REAL answer is "not at all honest."

All of which is a roundabout way of getting to the point that our current religion of free markets without limits is poisoning the rest of society. Government is naturally the first target of this distorted, predatory capitalism.

Off topic but July 28th I did watch PBS. They had a great concert honoring Paul McCartney with the Gershwin prize for the Arts. It was held at the White House and they played most of his hits from the Beatles and Wings.

Great music, I think that would have been one program all of us on this board could've enjoyed. I think everyone needs to have a politics free day once in a while. Also, can't wait for college football to start.

For political junkies sorry I probably should've tweeted this instead.

I only watch Fox occasionally specifically BECAUSE of its approach. It's the only place I can get that approach. That's why I started watching it in the first place. Because it was DIFFERENT.

But I get most of my news from MSN and I have no problem with PBS in general. It is probably the most fair of the left of center broadcast spectrum.

Meanwhile, that Fox is hated and reviled here says more about the intolerance of its critics than anything else. They have a hard time with even ONE deviation from their norm.

Disclaimer: This comment is in reference only to Cable TV news. Talk radio is a different thing because there is no question that the right side of the spectrum dominates it completely. I also find that I can't hear it if I don't turn it on.

So, overall, I think the whole situation is more than fair and will make my own personal judgements as to what I partake in. I wholeheartedly encourage everyone else to do the same with a little less hatred and vilification.

Jody:

This is one excellent post. Very well done.

The Q3 economic numbers will be out before Election Day, along with October. Economic growth will show stronger during that period. Take it to the bank, the private Economists that industry uses to set their plans are sure of it. That won't be sufficient to prevent the thunderstorm but I stick by my continuing prediction that losses for the Democrats will be at the high end of a normal midterm election for the party in power.

Jody, with regard to sharia law, I agree that it seems preposterous that it could be introduced in America, but did you know that in England, sharia courts are allowed to assume jurisdiction in certain circumstances? Does that seem preposterous to you? Even if it does, it is true. Granted, the limits of sharia courts in the UK are pretty restricted (i.e., parties must consent and only certain types of criminal/civil cases may be heard) but still, it's a step toward the very thing that you call preposterous...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196165/Britain-85-sharia-courts-The-astonishing-spread-Islamic-justice-closed-doors.html

Thanks, Ron.

The United States is not the UK.

Yes, I am well aware of the fact that the United States is not the UK, Jody, thanks for that clarification. My question to you was whether you would find it preposterous if it was mentioned to you that this was going on in the UK, which, like the US, is a modern, Western civilization. My point is that if it can happen in a country like the UK, why is it so far off-base that it could happen in a country like the US? I don't advocate fear-mongering and I believe that, in general, the Muslim religion is a peaceful religion, but you act like this is completely outside of the realm of possibility, when the UK (one of our closest allies) has sanctioned such a practice.

I suppose that the next time someone (like you) advocates for a national health care system like the one in France and Britain, I will say to you, Jody, "the United States is not the [insert country here]."

Most of what Gingrich speaks about is a REACTION. There are documented instances of local Islamic communities moving to get local authorities to accept a reliance on Sharia law within the local Islamic community. This has happened with regularity in Europe. Gingrich is not creating scenarios out of thin air.

Fst Ede

The gap you need to close is the one between you nose and chin.

Good one, Vet.

I'm on board with that US Navy. They just make it too easy sometimes.

Fst Ede:

Actually the gap to which YOU refer is already closed.

Easy indeed.

JoAnna,

And you say I’m better than that. Wow !!

Just trying to have it all make sense to the low-brow Lib crowd Dennis. I consider it a public service.

JoAnna - you are an idiot!

JoAnna. The only thing I'll give you credit for is knowing how to type.

Anna Molly:

Love that sense of Humor. I second CA's comment.

No doubt, the part about the cork. But thanks. ;)

Anna Molly,

Yup, Whack-A-Troll is a fun game, but remember, you get very low points for the Slow Moving to Mostly Dead ones, and Fst Ede ain't so fast. The only good thing about the slow ones is that they tend to be repeat customers, so you can get in a lot of points, just takes more whacks is all!!

I agree w bush, but we could have alot better chance if we were paying attention to what is real and not constantly being distracted by foolishness.

The facts speak for themselves, our country is being robbed blind, and instead of doing anything about it, we attack the President for trying to create a safety net for the increasing number of Americans falling behind.

It's kind of funny in an ironic, twisted, sad sort of way . . . mass brainwashing going on right before our eyes . . . and yet the topic of the week was should the President have gone on The View.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, God help us.

w bush. Hard to believe that people can be so easily fooled.

Nashville. Amazing, isn't it--so much real news and the media is stuck on The View.

The GOP has succeeded in not just dumbing down voters, they have dumb downed the media as well.

Anna Molly:

You're a corker. Love it. Pods and all.

Good morning, CA.

Anna Molly,

I dunno, we seem to be awash in these plastic, programmable Pod People as it is, and their programming has gone awry!

Good one. They do seem cookie-cutter similar.

Leon:

Some very good comments which which I would agree.

Morning Leon!

now cnn says the oil spill may not be as bad as first thought. let the rehabilitation of bp and the revision of history begin

_________________________

Sad but oh so true!

Hope things are well with you my friend!

They're already planning their IPO BuckWheat. Keep spinning it however you want. Your preference, I presume, would be an additional million unemployed?

ZOMG . . . finally, a smoking gun for the BIRTHER NATION! :o)

Great work JoAnne . . . a great nation is saved!

Hey JoAnne in PA - doesn't take much to shock a Braindead Beckerhead like you does it, just a pack of self serving Reichwing lies will do the trick. Hey Idiot Girl don't need to forward it to Bachmann Moron Overdrive, she's obviously behind it in the first place. Only a dimwitted fool like you would believe any of that Reichwing garbage floating around the internet e-mails, yeah like Obama was such a mastermind he planned on winning the White House when he was a teenager in high school.

Too bad you never graduated from high school because if you did you wouldn't be spouting this Reichwing rubbish here. Now put your tinfoil hat back on and tune into your hero Mormon Moron Glenn Beck and don't forget to pay your dues so you too can attend Beckerhead University so the main Beckerhead can steal your money while filling your empty brainpan with nothing but Reichwing lies.

Hey Nashville_fan - nice sarcasm dissing the Birther Bimbo!

JoAnne:

Enjoyed your last line. Democrats have not left home. And I might add. President Obama will keep his home...in the White House.

Eric, JoAnne in PA is left of center. You're mistaking her for JoAnnaSmith.

Eric - You should give an apology to JoAnne in PA. Even if she wasn't in her words "me being one of those crazy libs" From her posts, I've never thought of JoAnne in PA as a tea partier. Beyond that you are raving insane for attacking anyone like that. Better check your high blood pressure. She was using sarcasm Dude.

What's your problem anyway? I liked you better when you were sad a couple days ago and promising to give up on posting at First Read.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Eric, JoAnne in PA is left of center, You're mistaking her for JoAnnaSmith

You Libs are just so dense. You look at the header for the name, don't even bother to read the post, and then launch into your canned "We hate Conservatives" rants. You're just like the Obama administration with the Sherrod dustup. Shoot first, ask questions later.

JoAnna ~ It's not the libs that carry the guns.

People - since I'm the one who started this, can I be the one to end it too?

I'm a liberal. I thought I was pretty clear about that over the last year.

Humor is apparently not my forte. My thanks to those who got it anyway.

If you still want to argue, please find some other topic - my lousy writing is so not worth it..... :)

Great post.

I bought and read both books before Sen Obama announced he would run for President. They were excellent.

It is disturbing how people believe what ever gets e-mailed to them without so much as an effort to check. It is the downside of the internet.

So Larry, are you saying that the lady who worked for President Bush was not trying to refute the point that "Republicans don't like muslims", she was just tryng to point out that she could prove "Democrate don't like muslims" either?

And this makes you feel proud?

Just when I think our public discourse couldn't go any lower . . .

lol

The truth hurts doesn't it Fat Larry? All this rightwing lying about Obama being somehow sympathetic to the radical Muslim terrorists is all you want to hear isn't it? Sorry Obama has killed more al-Qaeda terrorists in 1.5 years than War Criminals Bush and Cheney did in 7.5 years. Yeah there is a lot of hatred against all Muslims, even the moderate ones, coming from the corrupt conservative christian lunatic fringers like you because all you want is neverending crusades against Muslims no matter how many Americans it kills or how much American treasure you waste on your phony religious war.

Maybe instead of sitting on your fat behind you should get out and exercise more to lose all that baby fat you've accumulated sitting on your lazy duff watching the Fox Noose channel, the official propaganda channel of the Neo-Nazi White Supremacist KKK John Birch Birther crowd. We don't need you corrupt conservative christian fanatics destroying our Secular Demcoracy so you can turn us into a christian perversion of Iran and cram your corrupt christian perversion of sharia law upon all of us.

Larry Larry Larry, there you teabagger republicans go again not posting all the segment. Chris Hayes did not say we're only talking about republicans hatred that is a Larry lie.

What he actually told his guest is to get a list of all the Democrats who have said hateful things about Muslims and he would gladly have her back on and let her reveal their names. So here you are Larry cherry picking the part of the segment that suits you. BTW he said he didn't think she could come up with any Democrats and she didn't disagree with him, so I assume she knew he was wright. Just another teabagger republican talking point, well the Democrats do it to.

Larry, the list of republicans who have spoken on tape using anti-Muslim language is substantially longer than the democrats. Chris Hayes requested the former Bush aid to provide him with the lengthy list she claimed existed and he would post it on the show's web site. We'll see if she comes up with any others besides the one she mentioned.

Closing the gap? Wishful thinking ... but not surprising coming from msnbc.

Now I know dumb and hateful....The separation of church and state was a 1946 Supreme Court decision of the 5-4 variety...So many of the founding fathers were Christians that it boggles my mind to think that you would make the statements that you have. Total lack of research and spewing of heresay or the party line...whatever you want to call it..