Feisty,

Great post gets a vote. While many apologized yesterday to Ms. Sherrod, Joe Schmo gave the weakest most insulting apology yet. He basically said that he apologies to every one so I amy as well apologize the Ms. Sherrod. Rush (the impotent drugster) claims that the Sherrod mess was organized by President Obama. It keeps on getting dumber.

Great Post Feisty: Being void of ideas and playing the fear card is the GOP way. The old Karl Rovian way did not work in 08 and it will not work anytime in the future. FDR said it best, the only thing to fear is fear itself. True then, true now.

Great comment Feisty! I just have to laugh that the Old Black Panther Party has disowned these New Black Panther losers. Even though Fox and Freaks admits that there are so few of these NBP's it sure doesn't stop them from running it nonstop to further their Scare Whitey with Bad Black Men racist agenda. The whole rightwing is nothing but a bunch of racists and their whoile gameplan has boiled down to going back to the past and running the racist rants now that we have our first black president, more us versus them politics that keep our once great nation divided.

Red.

In the words of that great American President Franklin D. Roosevelt and I’m going to add a should of my own.

“We (should) have nothing to fear but fear itself”

Good job with the copy-and-paste Fesity. The lessons are paying off.

Looks like Mr. Page has outlined many of the reasons why white voters are abandoning Obama. Rather then a post-racial President, we have one that appears to favor one group of people over the other.

Thanks Feisty. Great post. I was thinking last night about the things Joe S. has said about Ms. Sherrod as you kept us informed. And I kept wondering how is it that someone can be so damn cruel to another person like that. I don't know how he does it. I really don't. Same with Buchanan. What makes them so mean spirited I wonder.

I guess for me, I despise racism more than just about anything. And if you are aware of the history of African Americans in this country, you tend to try and find out everything before crucifying them. To come to an understanding of this person and her background. Joe and Buchanan don't do that. They are two of the most mean spirited people on tv. But it's subtle, not out there like with Rush and everybody else on the right.

It really makes me sad that this stuff is still going on. It's making a lot of people sad.

Go look up someday some of the stuff Buchanan has written. His greatest hits. He is man I hope I never meet. He appears friendly, humorous, etc., but in reality, he's a very mean spirited man.

Pat,

I agree. Buchanan has seen better days. I saw some of his writings, yuch. Funny thing though, he is still saying the same garbage 20, 30 years later. The morning show is getting tougher and tougher to sit all the way through. I wish that whole group would just go over to Fox, they continue to act like Fox plants.

Thanks for posting Clarence Page's op-ed. My local paper used to carry his op-eds and I always enjoyed them. Great added thoughts by you as well.

Fear is a powerful weapon, both sides have used it but in very different ways. The GOP are masters at using it in its worst form, fear of others. What a sad commentary on where our politics have taken us.

Hi US Navy: When I first started listening to Pat many years ago, I liked him a lot. And I liked Joe S. very much too. But slowly they start revealing themselves and I have to say, it's not pretty what we're hearing.

They are two who will hang a person before the trial even begins. No different than what happens on Fox. No difference.

Someone somewhere the other day said something interesting. He/she said that the powers that be don't care if we, Keith and Rachel's and now Lawrence's viewers, like Joe S. They don't care. They have their audience at night with us. And as Joe S. has stated - turn the channel if we don't like him. So they really don't care about integrity as far as getting it right. They're just looking for a loony audience in the morning to compete with Fox.

Great post Feisty!!!

Ron, yes the GOP loves to play the fear card over, over and over again. I think the people are starting to catch on.

US Navy, yes anything that goes wrong the drugster will always blame the President even if it's the GOP's doings.

Well Rand Paul has spoken again want else is new. I know my fellow friends will enjoy this.

I was reading our local newpaper and Rand Paul feels an obligation to raise questions about waste in the subsidy program which pumps $246 million into KY.

Rand Paul has called for an end to paying farmers not to grow crops.

Conway disagrees with Rand Paul.

Now everyone on the GOP side is hoping for Palin and Gingrich for 2012. On Hardball I think his name was Simon said that she will do it. Well if she does I hope to goodness she will learn better words to speak instead of making them up as she goes along.

If that happens it will be a really nice treat to watch that.

Thanks for posting this op-ed, Feisty. Hatred and bitterness are weapons as potent as fear and as difficult to overcome.

Polish theologian and philosopher Abraham Heschel said, "Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason."

Politics is about maneuvering for power and control over a group of people. I would ask our conservative friends, do you really, in your heart of hearts, approve of using this kind of hate, fear and racism as tactics to regain your political power?

Heart felt thanks to ALL for your kind words and additional observations!

We MUST keep shining the light to over come the darkness...

TRR.

Did you see the video of Angel running away from the reporter's yesterday?? She calls a meeting, spouts some talking points and then does not answer any questions. While the gentleman is announcing that we will now take a few questions Angel in scampering out the back door. What a class act. You can't make this stuff up.

The panthers were not there to intimidate the voters. They were there to intimidate the volunteers checking voter registration!! When an unregistered person was identified the two panthers threatened violence if the poll worker didn’t allow that individual to vote. Besides, they should have been arrested for hate speech. If this had been a group of white men, you liberals would have been foaming at the mouth and Holder would have been all over it. By ignoring this event Holder signals that it’s okay to intimidate poll workers; a common practice in every third-world country.

Hobie,

So you just proved that the case should be dropped because there was no voter intimidation.

Hate speech is allowed under the 1st amendment just like flag burning.

JoAnnaSmith

Good job with the copy-and-paste Fesity. The lessons are paying off.

Looks like Mr. Page has outlined many of the reasons why white voters are abandoning Obama. Rather then a post-racial President, we have one that appears to favor one group of people over the other.

Sorry JoAnna, i read that story on line, it is completely impossible to alter and storys on the Chicago Tribune wed site. i remember the willie horton saga, and the fits the consertive theme of dividing the nation along racial, religous and economic lines. i have never heard of the new Black panther Party unitll fox news showed the tape. its sad in 2010 that people have to resort to dividing people along the same lines that allowed Jim Crow laws in the south to remain for years.

what has the president done to favor one group over another, i guess when he bailed out the banks he showed his favortism toward all those black bank presidents. Oha yea goldman saks i'm sure that hispanic CEO was loving the president. GM i guess the muslim CEO took him out to dinner, Oha lest not forget the extention of enemployment benifets, i bet the bank and GM CEO that were forced out and collecting are real happy he did that.

Truth is you have a mind set that only blacks help black and whites only help whites. i feel sorry for you, you are stuck in the 30s down in mississippi. when whites not dare even accociate with the other people. truth is the president favors helping the poor, black, white, hispanic, jews, pols. but if you look at what he did for BIG business your arguement is flawed. president has helped the very people that hold the nations economy in there hands, more than the poor people.

But i know what your saying, in short, to you president Only helps black. again i feel sorry for you.

Dennis, really??? I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Look at how Franken stuffed the ballot boxes with ineligible votes. I guess liberals don't mind breaking laws if it furthers their agenda or saves them from paying taxes....too sad....

Feisty: You hit a home run!!! Progressive win...conservatives lose...big time.

You're too kind Professor! ;0)

"Scott Brown’s victory in January didn’t stop health care"

That's only because he didn't get a chance to vote on it. The Democrats used a sleight of hand manuever to prevent it from being voted on in the Senate, because they knew it would not pass a filibuster.

Hardly comforting to the liberal agenda.

Two of the biggest Liberal agenda items - Illegal immigrant amnesty, and cap & trade, have bit the dust, while the only two things that did get through - "health care reform" and "financial reform" are so vague that even their supporters don't have any idea how they will work, or how much they will cost.

Hardly inspuring to the Liberals, after having complete, filibuster proof control of the government. Two years to get their agenda passed, with little to show for it. Their "window of opportunity" is soon to close.

They have to be discouraged and disappointed.

you must be wearing blinders

Good post,Roy! I agree!

Anyone snookered by the Right wing are not very competent to begin with. Only a fool blames someone else for there mistakes.

Roy Wilson:

Two of the biggest Liberal agenda items - Illegal immigrant amnesty,

To quote another clown named Wilson, YOU LIE. Illegal imigrant amnesty is not part of any "liberal agenda" I've ever heard of. The immigration reform that progressives would like to see (but probably won't any time soon) involves making illegal immigrants pay a fine for being here illegally when they apply to change their status from illegal to legal. Paying a fine is PUNISHMENT; it is not amnesty. "Amnesty" is just a meanigless wingnut buzz word.

Hardly worth mentioning. It's not worth enforcing laws if they are broken in majority-black precincts. A police officer -was reported and complained -a Federal crime. Feds usually drop "no show" cases?

THEY have different rules. Ignoring the court is a valid excuse to drop a case in black areas. They rest of America just has to understand - black law is different.

• *The polling place was in a majority-black precinct that has long voted Democratic.
• *when a police officer was summoned and told Shabazz to leave the area, he did.
• *the Panthers failed to show up in court, meaning the government appeared to win by default.

Roy Dimwit Wilson

They did vote in the Senate, the majority won. The Democrats have never had filibuster proof control of the Senate, and the RE-peat-the-lie-to-the-PUBLIC-ans haven't actually "filibustered" anything. They are using the Rule 22 revision "Proceedural Filibuster". No one is up on their feet doing the work that our founding fathers envisioned.

The sheep are out today.

Can you smucks say Bhaaaaaaaa.

I bet you can.

Bob, you remind me of a talk show host that calls himself "Cigar Dave". His is a show for "Alpha males". If you're a REAL alpha male (one of his "lieutenants") you'll drink the things Cigar Dave tells you, smoke the cigars he tells you, and think the things Cigar puts in your head. Apparently REAL alpha males do exactly what they're told while smirking at everyone else because they're a bunch of sheep.

Nancy Pelosi: “Let’s go jump off that cliff and plummet to our death”.

Feisty Red: “Wait for me”. Baaaaaaaaa

Navy Vet: “Me too”. Baaaaaaaa

Ron: “I’m right behind you”. Baaaaaaa

Pat: “Well if you say so Nancy”. Baaaaaaaaa

John: “why not. We are out numbered anyway because the rest of the country wants to think for them selves and believe what their eyes and neighbors are saying and not what they read on this propaganda website. Screw it. WAIT UP”. Baaaaaaaaa

The Republicans will use anything to smear the current admistrations ofcourse that's politics, Republicans are not tea party just be clear on that. If the Tea Party is not racist then I must be god. Here are my opinions: Tea party only appear again after Obama was elected and not just tea party that gaining strenght and support from Fox News, there are many domestic terrorists and militias have increase 420% since 2009. During Bush era many things went so wrong (wire tape, Deficit, No WMD etc...) and where was the out cry from the Tea Party? When Clinton banned assault weapon in 94 where was tea party? why didn't they name calling Clinton and carry gun at the rally like they did to Obama? Well Clinton is a WHITE democract. So my conclusions.... Tea Party is a racist group that came out of the closet because they can't stand that this country (white country) elected the first black guy ( they call him MONKEY from signs they carry at the tea party rally) as their commander in chief. That's hurt them to their bones so they finally come out from their racist shadows.

OH REALLY? Like the "healthcare crisis" when there was NOT one? Or do you mean having a SELF ADMITTED COMMUNIST AND CONVICTED CRIMINAL like Van Jones "aiding" the president? Or do you mean the economic crisis that Barney Frank was directly involved in, the culpability of Fannie and Freddie in the economic collapse (which Frank LIED about)? Or do you mean IMMIGRATION REFORM otherwise known as AMNESTY by people with common sense? Or lying about the police and how SB1070 would "directly result in racial profiling"? Or about ATTEMPTING TO USE THE GULF OIL SPILL TO PASS CAP AND TAX (thank God that one is reportedly dead)?

The fact of the matter is that Fox is the only news organization that is willing to stand up to this president and the left can't stand it. I dare you to find ANY intentional fault with their reporting, can't quite do the same with the "so called main stream" media now can we? Since they have conspired to hide story's, and even suggested that saying someone was a racist without ANY evidence should be considered because they are losing the arguments on the merits, and blaming the conservatives for "blocking" their attempts to "help" the people, bah! That's BS and you know it, the dems had 60 freaking votes and could have passed anything they wanted without the checks and balances and pretty much have, even without the consent of the people they are supposed to represent.

So in summary go pound salt, you are a liar just like Pelosi, Ried, Obama and well every jackass in D.C. that has worked for this socialist agenda that has done NOTHING to help anyone but the DNC. Ask yourself where all the money has gone, if you look you will find groups like ACORN, SEIU and every thug union out there have made billions since this SOCIALIST has taken office. He has not protected this country in anyway and in fact has made this country less safe, economically (according to Bernanke), our borders are not being protected the (in fact he is working to make it less safe IMHO) and socially by "apologizing" to every country out there for America being prosperous ( MOST real Americans will never apologize for being successful and should not either, since the world itself is a better place when we are strong).

Matthew...

Do you attend anger management classes with InTheMiddle by chance?

If NOT you should ask him for the phone #...

And since I so love a good old fashion double dog 'dare'... How's this for starters on the pattern of Faux & Freaks intentionally altering photos?

http://mediamatters.org/research/200807020002

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts988

http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/1109/Fox_uses_old_Palin_crowd_footage.html

Please let me know if you would like some more...

When is enough enough?

Never. Right-wing associates insisted that Saddam Hussein was in cahoots with Al Qaeda, and still insist there were WMD but these were moved--though even Bush publicly declared both as untrue. They still wouldn't admit that the invasion was a mistake. The most they might concede is that the invasion was mismanaged. Next these same people insisted that revelations about Obama would prevent him from running for POTUS. I assume this was the birther conspiracy nonsense. Once again, did they apologize for being wrong? Nah! So aside from the lack of substance to back up any of their drival (Bob), this is the conservative way.

I was watching a news segment last night about Obama's Fight the Smears website during his campaign. He decided not to be swift boated, and it worked. But now that he is POTUS, he must balance getting important business done and most of all not appear to be an "angry black man." Still, I wish there was more push back to the incessant right-wing propaganda that includes their crazy obsession with E-mail distribution and now edited videos of ACORN, Black Panthers, NAACP and who knows what else. The Fight the Smears website showed who was behind the origination of this crap and how they were connected in catapulting it.

Andrew Breitbart was behind both the ACORN and Shirley Sherrod video. Since the far-right wing nuts will never own up to anything, it behooves the remaining sane citizens in this country to tag them on everything every time. If I see anything else from Breitbart, for example, then we have truly failed to learn our lesson.

Nicely stated Matthew.

And other than their unemployment benefits being extending there probably isn’t anything better in their lives today than there was two years ago.

From NBC's Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Ali Weinberg

Four of the biggest kiss-asses ever to grace such a piss-poor network.

They must hand out rose colored glasses when you get hired.

Clint - if you hate MSNBC so much, then why are you here?

Didn't you know that today is WASH day? Better get to washing that hood you are wearing...

Kill the messenger!

You people won't even believe what you've seen with your own eyes and heard with your own ears.

How do you "take out of context" what was said by those ACORN workers?

There's no sense in trying to get through to people who BLINDLY and DEAFLY defend such incredibly obvious criminal behavior.

The only EXCUSES ever offered by these people are: "Bush did this", or "Bush did that".

Frickin pathetic!

Pietro, Columbus, Ohio

Clint - if you hate MSNBC so much, then why are you here?

Didn't you know that today is WASH day? Better get to washing that hood you are wearing...

I'm here BECAUSE I hate MSNBC!

And the reason I hate it, is exactly because they promote the kind of thinking that possessed you to label me a KKK member because I don't agree with you.

Let me guess....I'm a Tea Party member also right?

Mathew 165----

I dare you to find ANY intentional fault with their reporting. (refering to FOX)

Did you awake from a coma this morning and just decide to log on.

Clint - actually, I was just trying to be a smarta$$ and failed miserably. I have no problem correcting a wrong and stating I was wrong. I was compelled to respond to your post attacking our gracious hosts, however.

With that being said, I don't know if you are a Tea Party member, and don't really care if you are.

Roy Wilson, apparently you think Ronald Reagan was a liberal. If so you are truly a right wing extremist Fascist wannabe. You may simply have forgotten that it was President Reagan who gave amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. He didn't want to deal with the issue and took the easy way out. Other presidents have simply seemed to ignore the issue. It wasn't until the problem became so well expanded (because of Reagan's actions) that Dubya and Obama have done anything at all and neither of them has done much either. I believe that the Obama Administration will eventually do something but that it is not a top priority. If the economy were not so bad, there wasn't the oil spill in the gulf, and upcoming elections they would probably be giving it more attention. Obama has added more troops to the border and has had some task forces working on the problem. It won't be an easy issue to resolve.

fear is a powerful weapon you mean like the fear the two black pussycats were doing in front of the poleing st. doors

Now...

If only Chris Matthews and the rest would be gracious enough to apologize for painting the Tea Party members as racists, rather than a movement primarily concerned with issues related to the size and scope of government, spending, and deficits.

What you call "gracious", Pietro, I call "kiss-ass".

The way they blatantly twist and sugarcoat issues, and then try to pass these articles off as "journalism", compels me to respond.

I put their pieces in the same category as a National Enquirer story: Fun to read, (in a humorous kinda way) but basically pulp fiction.

Clint, you can't believe what you see on the ACORN tapes because they were heavily edited and in some cases OVERDUBBED. Don't take my word for it, the Massachussetts Attorney General was unable to bring charges against any of the supposed "criminals" at ACORN because the tapes weren't good enough to serve as credible evidence.

Then by all means John, let's "minimize and move on"!

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"!

EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES!!!

All they have to say is: "It's not true", and people will find a way to justify it.

"Trick photography", "OVERDUBBING", GIVE ME A BREAK!

As I said, frickin Pathetic!

ClintHorace sez:

How do you "take out of context" what was said by those ACORN workers?

Rachel Maddow showed how easy it was: when one of the workers heard the story from the "undercover" wingnuts about setting up a prostitution ring of underaged children smuggled across the Mexican boarder, he played along with them. It all looked very incriminating on the video, but records of the phone call the ACORN worker made to a relative in the police department shortly after the incident proved that he was in fact playing along with them to assist the authorities in breaking up what he had reason to assume was a real prostitution ring. The ACORN guy acted responsibly and was defamed for it by the far right noise machine.

But you won't hear about that on Fox, nor, sadly, on most of the supposedly "mainstream" media outlets. That's why I don't bother watching Fox at all. When Maddow or Olbermann do make a factual error, they correct it themselves, often the very next day. Fox News is in business to manufacture factual errors.

Houston

So you're just going to ASSUME that every piece of audio or video that paints this, or any other organization in a bad light, has been "doctored" or "taken out of context"?

I find it unfathomable that people will deny their own eyes and ears to protect a fantasy.

I guess you have to wait for MSNBC to tell you what you think before you can make up your mind.

I find it unfathomable when some people (and admittedly I don't know if you're one of them) won't believe that an American birth certificate is real even after the official in charge of such records issues an emphatic statement that the document is genuine.

Who's telling those people what to think?

ClintHorace:

So you're just going to ASSUME that every piece of audio or video that paints this, or any other organization in a bad light, has been "doctored" or "taken out of context"?

Like most wingnuts, you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. I explicitly said that there were records PROVING that the ACORN worker was stringing the so-called "investigative journalists" along and that he informed the police of the criminal activity they told himthey were up to. I didn't see those records, but I'll believe Maddow that they exist. If they didn't exist, all those intrepid "journalists" at Fox News would certainly have exposed Maddow's misinformation and Sean Hannatity would spend hours harping about it.

Like IR said, I seem to be trying to teach a pig to sing, explaining to you the facts that you want to avoid. Or to use another metaphore: You can lead a wingnut to FACTS but you can't make him think.

Re the first post by Feisty on this page.......

EXCUSE ME?

Clarence Page’s commentary:

“The polling place was in a majority-black precinct that has long voted Democratic.”

What is he saying? That it’s assumed the precinct would go to Obama any way so anyone not voting for Obama should not bother to vote? Hey, your candidate won’t win here so don’t bother having a voice in an election? Really?

“Most of the voters there hardly needed to be intimidated into voting for Obama.” So the Black Panthers were only there to intimidate SOME of the people wanting to vote, but it since it was assumed that the SOME of them were a only a minority, it’s okay?

“Besides, when a police officer was summoned and told Shabazz to leave the area, he did.”

Why did the police come? Who called the police? Could it have been some who was feeling INTIMIDATED?

“the government won by default” That should have been the end of it. The Court made a decision ---but no…..”the department dropped the charges.” The case was already decided. Why was it necessary to drop the charges?

“The government won an injunction that forbids him from carrying a weapon near a polling place in PA through 2012”

But after that, he’s free to carry a weapon to a polling place? And in the meantime, he can carry a weapon at any other polling place if he wants to as long as it’s not Philadelphia?

“Abigail Thermstrom,…. Characterized the case as small potatoes” Voting is a sacred right. Small potatoes? The slightest act of voter intimidation----the slightest act of violating Civil Rights should never be considered small potatoes!

Is Clarence Page saying: Let’s just have a little voter intimidation here, and a little there, and just a smidgen over there…. As long as you keep the incidents small……it’s okay? And the liberals/progressives on First Read went into an “agreeing frenzy.”

I generally try to understand and empathize with different points of view but this time I think you’ve all gone crazy.

Candice, Bartlett, IL

EXCUSE ME?

_____________________

Why? Did you have a brain fart or something Candace?

After reading your drivel that's the conclusion that I came to!

You were so SPOT on about the right wing SS 'chain' e-mail that Neal-O felt necessary to post here around 20 or so times!

In the spirit of bipartisianship... you're excused!

Feisty,

Did I misinterpret your posting and the responses that followed? Are you saying Clarence Page was not saying the incident was no big deal? Tell me I missed the point.

Checked out Neal's post on Snopes.

Shoot. Snookered by Neal.

Too bad. It sounded like such a good argument.

Thanks for the heads up.

Houston

What you just said in your last post has absolutely no bearing on WHAT I SAID!

Like most loony lefties, you hold onto one aspect of an issue and talk around in circles until you end up back at the same old ridiculous statement.

You say you'll believe Maddow, but you won't believe your own frickin ears or eyes?!?!

I'd like to think you were deliberately being obtuse, but I'm afraid you've been forever BLINDED by your own brilliant ignorance.

"Dithering"? Is that what we're calling thorough investigations these days?

After two years of "dithering", the Justice Department declined to prosecute in the investigation of political pressure to fire U.S. attornies.

Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot!

"After two years of "dithering", the Justice Department declined to prosecute in the investigation of political pressure to fire U.S. attornies."

I would totally agree. Most of it was under the Barry admin. Looks like there is a lot of dithering in the Dem party.

BTW, Gitmo closed yet?, unemployment at 8% yet?, economy stimulated yet?, KSM trial location decided yet?, Cap and tax bill up for a vote yet?, immigation reform done in the first year, as promised?, got estate tax reinstated yet?,

Dither on Dems.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe in Albany, not sure why you are doing the whole HAHA thing today.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe in Albany, Dithering???????

Health reform Passed, Financial Regulation Passed, Economy not in a Depression, Growth projected to be at 3.5%. If that's Dithering i will take it. Not even 2 full years in.

Let me know the 3 greatest things George Bush did in 8 years. thank you very little

I see your still hoping that America fails Joe so the Republicans can gain control again. That is about as unamerican as it gets Joe, rooting against America. But then again you teabaggers/Republicans will do anything to gain control. You didn't finish destroying our great country the first time so you want another shot at it. For your information it aint going to happen, 20% of you teabagging nuts aren't enough.

When will the republicans take action on Ensign and Vitter?

Patrick: The GOP will not take action on Ensign and Vitter...they need their votes.

Glen:

Health Care passed----with much arm twisting and bribery! Chicago thug politics at its very best!!! Against the will of the majority of Americans.

Financial Reform passed-----gives MORE control to the government; beware when Obama says it will watch out for the consumer. Yeah right! and unemployment won't go over 8%

No Depression??? Are you nuts? maybe no depression, but the entire economy is in the tank .

Growth projected at 3.5%---not in this country!

Name 3 things Bush did---unemployment was 4-5%;unemployment was 4-5%;unemployment was 4-5% The country was humming along until the Dems took over Congress in 2007 and Obama fooled a majority in 2008!

PHN

Growth projected at 3.5%---not in this country!

As a matter of fact, yes. The GDP is growing at around 3.5%, as much as you may want to see it fail. Technically, the Bush Recession is OVER, although the unemployment rate unfortunately means the suffering Bush caused is still ongoing.

The country was humming along until the Dems took over Congress in 2007 and Obama fooled a majority in 2008!

On the day President Obama took office, there were two disastrous wars, a stock market crash and unemployment approaching 8%. If you consider that "humming along" then you are living in an alternative universe that only exists in Glenn Beck's imagination.

PHN and all others of your ilk.

Please make the effort to sight the legislation that the Democratically "controlled" congress passed, and then forced Bush to sign which created the financial troubles besetting our Nation.

We patiently await your reply.

That or we tell you to SHUT-UP in advance of your silence. *crickets*

Actually just this morning I was part of a transportation industry webinar in which the economists forecast was for 3.5% growth in GDP for the next 2 years at least. They also used multiple measures to make the case that the current easing in growth is both entirely normal and should last for no more than a couple of months.

Corruption is unacceptable no matter what Party. I have no sympathy for Rangel if found guilty. But as I am saying this, may I ask conservatives why they have been and continue to be so silent about Vitter, Sandford, Ensign, etc., and why they are accepting Newt Ging-grinch back into the fold so eagerly despite the skeletons in his closet?

Also, please stop trying to rewrite history to suit your agenda. Aside from the fact (yes fact, something you may not be familiar with) that Dems were NOT the majority for for most of Bush/Cheney's administration, and even when they were it was so slim as to mean nothing... But more importantly, when there has been a Republican in the White House, even when Dems had a majority in congress they were FAR more accommodating and devoted to getting the people's business done.

Look it up--the current Republican minority thinks they should be in charge, and since they can't, they have set the record for abuse of the filibuster, blocks and holds. Sounds a lot like using "second amendment remedies" if conservatives aren't victorious at the ballot box, doesn't it? We have elections for a reason, and the loser should have the professional courtesy to acknowledge that and do what's best for the country. You know, what Al Gore did even though he won the popular vote.

if the republicans when a majority of the house seats back, well then the dems have nobody to blame but theirselves,most everthing obama has pushed has been unpopular with the majority of the voters. all these tax crooks he puts in charge lie geithner and rangle who cant remember how many rental properties he has hes a tax cheat and should do jail time just like you or me if we cheated on our taxes,is he above the law.the dems all cried about McCain and his houses but at least he did not try to screw the gov.mabe if obama would concentrate on one thing at a time like unemployment he would get more help from the republicans, instead he wants to push all these unpopular agendas,take one thing at a time,show he cares about everyone in america not just what the far left want.and mabe getting better people around him instead of tax cheats ,the company you keep tends to rub off on your publics opinion.

You can find GDP forecasts ranging from 2% to 3.8%. What they currently have in common is that recent forecasts are all downward revisions.

The Fed recently cut its forecast from 3.7% to "no more than 3.5%".

The trend actually is not promising at the present time.

Oh Joe

Don't you realize this man has been railroaded with trick photography and OVERDUBBING?

Poor Clint, can't handle that there are people who won't just accept the word of criminals. http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2010/01/anti.html

Richard, i will take slow growth over a recession or depression any day of the week. not sure what republican economics report you are following. but keep trying.

PHN, you are wrong wrong wrong. The subprime ticking timebomb started under Republican control of both the white house and the congress. get your facts straight. it's not when the bomb goes off, it's when it was placed there. good try spiffy

Glen, what part of "Federal Reserve" don't you understand? The other growth forecasts mentioned in general are from a variety of individual economic "experts" quoted in various articles right here on good ol' MSN.

You're out of your league

Richard, i said 3.5%. you are not only out of your league, you might be out of your mind dope. pay attention, you are confusing yourself.

ps-i don't care if it's 3%, as long it's not a recession, we are better off than we were.

you totally are not paying attention Richard

at the rate obama is spending our money in just two years just think how bad we will be if he were to get re-elected after health-care takes full affect(costing more and more than predicted)unemployment already predicted to stay above nine%through next year .but the dems will always have bush to blame.I wonder howmuch damage will be done and how long the next president will use the blame obama game. If he dont want to take responsibility for the countries troubles then he should have never ran for the top job and I hope our next president is not scared of a man like Glen Beck (haveing a woman fired because he was afraid beck was going to talk about her,beck took advantage of that ,if anybody watched beck tell the public that the whitehouse should not of had her fired. this is one Pu87 y of a president) god help us all because this man is going to bring us all down.

carlyss man.......... another idiot, proud of their own ignorance.

paul..............it took obama three times to pass the bar.It;s the ignorance in the whitehouse im worried about.

Funny.....I don't recall you complaining about Bush's idiocy or ignorance. It's probably not racial, but it sure sounds like it could be.

Anyone who doesn't make an effort to not appear to be a racist, is probably a racist.

whats funny about the dems is 90%of blacks voted for obama and stii praise him and every time something bad is said about the man you cry raceism sorry but thats not going to worh in 2012.

What is sad is that you can't spell, and English is likely your first and only language. And you have no ability to think logically. It is not enough to criticize Obama, you need to offer alternatives that have a chance of actually working, not theories which have already been disproven.

The critique of Obama becomes a racially motivated activity, when false accusations are leveled, disproved theories are offered, realities are denied, and official government documents are questioned incessantly, investigations are hindered or whitewashed, and blame is misapplied.

Are you saying that people will be proud to display their racism in 2012? A lot of people obviously are, a sad reaction to the election of a black President.

Obviously not everyone who opposes President Obama is doing so for racist reasons, but denying that some are is only enabling a hateful agenda.

Of course the vast majority of African-Americans voted Democratic and for Obama. The Democrats are the only party which acknowledges their plight.

You don't get to vote, by the way, just because you are BLACK, you have to be an American first.

Paul:

Just what the hell does that mean? I'm an African American and judging from sentiments; you're white.

The vast majority of AA voted for Obama because he is black and this was the first time in history a blackman could actually win. The reason most vote Democrat is because of entitlement programs. The Democrats have demonized the Republicans so badly when it comes to this issue as to where AA are scared to vote Republicans. Socially AA are more close to Republican values except for the entitlement programs.

The democrats will continue to have a foot on the throats of AA as long as the Republicans allow themselves to be labled as racists and bigots.

IN the Middle of Ignorance

Carlyss man stated that 90% of BLACKS voted for Obama. Do you not understand what is wrong with this statement?

Democrats don't have their feet on the throats of AAs. African-Americans are free to vote any way they would like. The Republican Party offers AAs little more than the opportunity to be "good tools" for economic exploitation, much like you are.

Most AAs acknowledge their history of being used as unpaid tools, they aren't much interested in continuing on as under-paid tools.

RE-peat-the-lie-to-the-PUBLIC-ans get labeled as racists and bigots because they make little of no effort to appear as anything else.

Paul:

WTF are you talking about. No frikken one uses me. I earned every phukkin penney I have. I fought for this country and bled so ignorant MF's like yourself can come on a blog and look down your nose at people who do not think the way you do.

WTF have the Democrats done for the AA community in the last 40 yrs. Not a GD thing but continue to put up strawmen in order to keep that voting block. If you have a community that are not well schooled in politics, they will vote with whomever promises the most. Democrats have gotten my community so addicted to social programss as to where it is damn near impossible to break the cycle.

I SEE generation after generation of AA living solely off of social programs. I have them in my extended family and I have attempted to help some break the cycle. They do not want to break the cycle because it is too easy and if you don't want much in life then you just adapt.

I know a lot of bigotted and racist azz white LIBERALS. I live next door to one. He can't stand that as a blackman I'm able to afford to live next to him. I have told him such also. I don't like him and he doesn't like me.

Democrats present a fasad of not using the AA and Latino community as soley an automatic voting block and unfortunately our community in general is not educated enough politically to understand this.

Why do you think most middle and upper class blacks vote republican? Even if they are called Uncle Toms, House N...rs, etc..... This is another tool of the Democrat party.

Another TOOL who is too ignorant to recognize himself as a tool. I got real News for you ITM, you never fought or bled for this country. You fought for economic oportunities for multi-national corporations. They told you that you were fighting to preserve our freedoms and you were naive enough to believe them. The "facade" you claim that the Democratic party puts up to garner the AA vote may be an economic cul-de-sac but it wouldn't have much of an attractive force if real jobs with real living wages existed in abundance in our economy. There are many jobs and works projects, which need doing and have needed doing for thirty years in this country, which could gainfully employ millions of underpriviliged men. It is no accident that those maintenance and improvement projects have gone undone and unfunded.

If the RE-peat-the-lie-to-the-PUBLIC-an party were interested in making this nation a better country for all of its inhabitants instead of being the saboteurs of that goal, perhaps they could attract the votes of the underpaid working class, the under-and unemployed, and single mothers. But if they are going to continue to work at "starving the beast" instead of growing the economic pie for everyone, their "hopes" for larger support electorially are dimmed even if it appeals to the sellouts who fail to see that they are only considered the tools of their charade.

If you knuckleheads would simply make the effort to refer to the Democratic Party as such, rather than the Limpball's moniker, we might one day take your 'thinking' seriously.

You have just proved my point. It shows just what type of an ignorant fool you are. You call me a sellout...lol...I guarantee you I do a lot more for my community than you ever will. I don't forget where I come from.

You can talk all of the Sh!t you want on a damn blog but go say that BS about the military to a true soldier's face, see what happens to your silly azz.

So what you're saying is the Democrap party want everyone to remain poor as to keep the voting block.

I thought you were stupid. You have let that liberalism (probably doesn't even know what it means) get you all jacked up in the head.

Kick Rocks, trick azz beatch.

Tool In the Middle

Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. The Democratic party benefits from the Republican party's obstinance. If everyone that currently is poor were to suddenly be elevated into the middle class they would by and large still vote democratic 85/10/5 %. The conmen at the head of the Republican party ( not Michael Steele dimwit) are happy to sell you the false hope that you will ever be one of them. You sell your soul to be part of their philosophy without realizing that they have lied to you about what their philosophy really is.

IR: You know your Bible pretty well, I just never heard it explained that way before.

It doesn't matter who lies, conservatives or the media, it's our job to set the record straight with facts. Have a good day and stay cool. It's really hot in Indiana.

Ron I reckon that Iprobably don't know it as well as an old heathen ought to but some of that childhood Bible study seems to have stuck with me. It does look like that Midwestern heat wave is going to visit ushere in the East with a vengance this weekend so I would like to remind my Friends and neighbors here to have a care and especially look in on the elderly and disadvantaged with an eye to making sure that they have a cool place to go to

IR:

Your point is accepted. I would only suggest that you balance it with a few quotes from Eric Salty Donkey and the more than ample samples of distasteful discourse emanating from the other end of the spectrum.

Hey Redneck,

No use in trying to desuade these poor, blind Odiot(made that one up myself) sheeple from the left. The right is evil...and ...and ...they LIE! Come on, really? Everyone lies on both sides on occasion but look at the evidence-Please see Steve Rattner(the car Czar) That's a fitting name for such a rat. I promise you he's in the back pocket OweBama himself. Please See Petrobras: the Brazilian State-run oil company who can still 'Deep water drill' but American oil giants cannot?? They(Petrobras) got billiions in "aid" from the OweBama administration a couple of months before George"puppetmaster" Soros invested some 16 billion in guess who....wait for it.....Petrobras Nah, the leftists in this country are not up to anything, surely. They are pure,white as the driven snow- they only want everyone to be equal. Yeah, equally dependent on the massive & growing government. Please see the deficit now. You Lefties complain about the deficit under W but it's almost 4 times larger now after 18 short months. Hey guess what though, it WILL get worse. Please see Charlie Rangel....which time?!??!?

These folks come on here, on the most liberal of liberal news organoizations( cuz that's what it is-noise) cut & paste articles of "proof" from other very leftward slanted uh umm... news outlets cuz this is all they have left. What passes for News today is twisted so far to left it's comical. Don't think so? Just ask Luke Russert. I'll wait a moment while you guys catch up! ....................................

Where do you lefties get the time to bash the right all day long?? There are only 4 possible options 1) You are part of the group that will get some of those unemployement checks that will be on the way shortly. 2) You work for them(the gubbmint) already and get paid to do nothing anyway. 3) You're retired or 4) You're doing it from your job. Read: screwing your evil capatalist boss or it's your own business & your more concerned with talking trash, name-calling, looking down your snooty nose at people who don't think like you Than you are with helping. Whatever the case, it's very sophomoric & you probably need the gubbmint to have your back.+

Why can you people not understand(righties & lefties) that these crooks we call our government are all completely corrupted. They force unpopular legislation on the population(both sides), they take a healthy portion of your money to do whatever they please with it or they give you money & expect something in return. They do NOT have to worry where their healthcare will come from or how they will afford it. They get paid almost $200K/yr FOR LIFE & answer to virtually no one. I'll take the right over the left any day simply for the smaller government view but this is really NOT about left vs right. They both have grown the government. However, if you continue to support the kind of policies the current administration pursues, if you keep feeding this beast, it will eat you along with the rest. I'd love to come here more often & smash your feeble,seemingly 'well thought out' dumbocrat talking points but I have evil capitalistic gainful employment to get back to. Good look in Nov., by the way....(Please read with a deep southern drawl) Yall gone git yall's ass kicked!

Richard I am right glad to see you know. And as you can see from the Yahoo between you and me now I'm also glad to see somebody make a sensible point.Had that very thought while I was putting it together. And I do agree with your point and if I decide to continue along these lines I will accommodate you. I must admit to a certain amount of laziness being involved here because Eric has a tendency to bounce around so much it would wear a fellow out and to be honest most times I don't pay much attention to him whereas all you have to do is go later on some of the pages here lately and you don't have to expend much effort to find the other mess. Biggest problem I have is sorting out the stuff that would really make some early morning folks toss their coffee and Danish from the herd. I wish we weren't on opposite coasts so there's so much time difference but I do hope that you'll drop in and have a chat occasionally. Maybe bring a little flask of that Black Jack you get paid in and we'll have a little fun because as you can see most of these Yahoo's ain't no fun at all. If they've reduced your stipend to a cheaper brand let me know and heck I'll even buy. Keep well

And now to Mr. Rooster. Apparently you didn't read the whole thing. Go back and when you get to the part about not wasting my time to teach pigs to sing you might recognize someone. Normally being a nice guy and general all around fine human I would offer you a gift certificate for singing lessons at one of the music schools around but I see that your somewhat naturally tonedeaf so I wouldn't want to steer you in a direction that you couldn't get any benefit or enjoyment from.BTW if the quality of the mind that produced that little diatribe is any indication of the strength of the back attached to it I wouldn't have much faith in your ability to pack enough lunch to kick the ass of a ten year old child much less mine. Why don't you bring some help back next time. Been my experiance dealing with fellows like yourself you'll feel a little safer when you travel in groups so you can gather enough brains in one place to figure out the map that shows you how to get both hands on your butt.

IR, thats too funny Rooster is all confused now

Sounds like a positive development . . . wish there was a way to lower the premiums more than 5 to 7% though . . . gotta start somewhere I guess.

I'd like to believe they're serious too. Hopefully, some of the 128 co-sponsors are Republican. Otherwise, this is just as doomed as the last time we tried this.

By the way, could someone please remind our senators that part of why costs are skyrocketing is trying to litigate-proof medicine through overuse of testing? Some tort reform would be nice.

IR,

Great post. If we as a nation are going to move forward and achieve the greatness that we are capable of, we need to start having meaningful discourse on these issues. The finger pointing and sandbag operations of the right to divide this country need to come to a halt. We have to stop taking every little comment or speech out of context just to prove an agenda and totally ignore the truth of those statements. Ms. Sherrod is a perfect example of how low this country has gone. A completely false posting, jumped on by everybody and their brother to try and prove a lie. We should be asking ourselves is this how we want to be viewed by others? Is this really what we have become? Is this the best we can be as a nation?

When do we get off this merry-go-round and start working toward the common good of all. Somebody quotedthe other day "United we stand, divided we fall". If we do not get our act together we are going to fall, and fall hard. We wont have to worry about leaving anything to our grandchildren, there will not be anything to leave.

Certainly the lack of a public option is my biggest issue with health care reform as it passed this Congress. Fwiw I think we'll end up eventually with government coverage of "basic care" and private insurance above that, with some sort of Medicaid coverage for those who simply can't afford the private umbrella. I say this not because I have some desire for "socialized medicine" but because the writing is on the wall--our current system is unsustainable in the long term and the current health care reform law doesn't do enough to fix that. Premiums up 3-10 times the inflation rate year in and year out. Steadily declining coverage for those premiums. Increasing numbers of employers dropping coverage altogether. Businesses in the US being at a competitive disadvantage to companies in countries with national health care. It's a lot stacked against the existing system and that system will continue in its death spiral.

John B.

A very thoughtful post and I agree. This bill and the Financial Reform Bill are both Works in Process and will get better and stronger as they mature. What President Obama has done for America is give them the foundation and tools to move forward. We now have to make sure that our elected officials follow through on the opportunity that President Obama as given all Americans. Kudos to our President and all those that have put main street above wall street.

"By the way, could someone please remind our senators that part of why costs are skyrocketing is trying to litigate-proof medicine through overuse of testing? Some tort reform would be nice.'

From the trial-lawyer bought and paid for Democrats?????????????????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Joe:

A guy can dream, can't he? ^_^

Universal coverage?? Public option?? And just watch our taxes skyrocket...who will pay for this public option??? That is the worst thing that could happen to our country (besides the fact that Obama, the Community Organizer, is already destroying this once great country with his socialist ideas)!

5-7%? That's hilarious. All that "greed" in health insurance and the public option can only manage a 5-7% savings? And that's before it exists. Can't wait to find out the "truth", as we know the government never guesses high, and is normally "off" by a substantial margin when the bills come due.

Quote from england that discribes our leaders past and present......TRUE EVIL HAS A FACE YOU KNOW....AND A VOICE YOU TRUST......be aware.

ray jarvis,

This is a book written by Greg Iles, published in 2006 (nothing to do with England) about A Southern doctor is pulled into a terrifying ring of murderous secrets. Perhaps you should read it sometime.

PHN, who's paying for the medical care of those who don't have insurance currently? It gets dumped onto the bills of people who have insurance because the health care providers have to cover those expenses somehow. Then everyone's insurance rates go up. Then more people or employers dump their insurance because it's too expensive. And insurance companies work a little harder to dump anyone of questionable health from their rolls in favor of only enrollees who are healthy. Repeat ad infinitum. Until the whole system crashes because too few people have private insurance. That's an issue that has nothing to do with Medicare reimbursement rates or malpractice insurance or any of the many other things that people like to blame on the government. It's just how it is.

Speaking of Lawrence and Countdown, I have not tuned in as much as usual. It might be because "Worsts" is taking the time off with Olbermann. Which makes me sad.

Anyway, back on topic. Now that MSNBC mentions it, the Obama admin. seems to be doing much better than they used to with problems on the distraction front. Then again, I could be having issues with confirmation bias. =P

Pat Boston,

I watched Larry O and Rachael last night. They are indeed a shinning light (as is Keith). They present the facts and prove them for all to see. Probably because they are journalists, not political taking heads and pundits like most others. She gave back to OReily only as she could do. Pretty soon we will have Keith followed by Rachael followed by Larry. Does not get uch better than that.

Have a good day nice post.

Does not get much better than that.

No it does not. We're so so so fortunate to have them. I think they have a unique relationship with their audience, which is why First Read is so terrific. They get to read what we like or dislike on any given day. But most importantly, their stories help us defend against the lies that have become so much ingrained into our society.

SeanDoonan, President Obama will be just fine. He's the mature one you have to remember. The rest of us? eh. lol

@Pat:

I hope you're right about Obama. In the meantime, I will hold off passing judgement on the maturity of others. I'd like to discuss this issues, not someone's relative maturity level (since maturity can, in some cases, be adjusted as necessary).

Great post, Pat.

The media has played a huge role in the public's perception of Pres Obama. I have no problem when they report negatives but I do object to their focus on the trivial like "anger". The media's failure to report the truth about what the Obama Admin was doing from day one on the BP disaster and instead turn it into a discussion of temperament and he isn't doing enough was completely disgusting.

The Sherrod incident seems to have had an affect. Chuck Todd subbing for Matthews last night discussed the media's role, and possibly, the good to come from it will be a reassessment of how and what is news, and getting the facts first instead of going for the sensational. One can hope the discussion and self-examination continues.

Great post, Pat. I am proud of President Obama and the way he comports himself. I guess if you're not a strong-arm dictator or a swaggering cowboy you will be accused of weakness. However, in President Obama's "weakness" lies his strength. It's the same with Rachel Maddow, Eugene Robinson and Lawrence O'Donnell. Thoughtful, intelligent people often don't get the credit they deserve, because it is harder for their voices to be heard above the bombast and yelling of the crowd.

SeanDoonan: I hear you about maturity level. But when I get personally blamed for every liberal policy out there because of Senator Ted Kennedy, the level of discussion pretty well goes down from there. lol

On the baseball websites, being a Red Sox fan is never easy.

And on the football sites, me being a New England Patriots fan and being decimated by Eagles, Jets, Giants and Cowboys fans, I have to say - maturity takes a back seat.

But I keep going back. Why I have no idea. It ain't easy.

Gail, perfectly said. I think people just love drama yet in the meantime, most of what is being said is just not reality.

Her finisher, "Your Highness" - man, I wish I had her ability to get that snark out with the perfect smile. It is genius.

Bill O throwing down on her in the first place was boneheaded. Ratings don't equate to facts - and he underscores that point DAILY!

Jody, thanks for the heads up on what Chuck Todd talked about last night. I don't watch tv until 8:00 pm, so I missed what he said. I have often wondered about Chuck to be honest. I like him; he was one of my fake best friends in 2008, especially during the primaries. He would ease my mind when the media made me feel all was lost.

But he seems to be unfair to President Obama at times, and I have wondered occasionally since he's from Florida if he, like Joe S., is looking towards a Jeb Bush campaign in 2010. He seems so disrespectful, which surprises me at times. I never mind the media holding President Obama's feet to the fire. But the media has changed, and not for the good.

I think they all hang out together and I get the feeling that they sit over a few beers and wonder what talking point they can spread next. And before you know it, it's a big story with no real basis for concern. And at the end of the day, they protect each other.

And the American people? No one seems too concerned about us, except President Obama and of course Keith and Rachel and now Lawrence, and their guests.

Clara:

Ratings equals RATINGS. This is television. Ratings is what keeps your azz on T.V.

Without ratings you are no good to the station for its' survival. Ratings equal advertisement to which equals continuous flow of paper coming in.

I guarantee if those ratings don't pick up by the time GE is taken over; most of those political shows will be gone.

The country in general just do not want to hear all of that liberal commentary every night. you may not see it this way because you are only habitating within your little circle.

Pat:

Keith and Rachel do not give a ratz azz about you. That is just the truth. Those people care about nothing but RATINGS. This is how they keep a job.

MSNBC is not even breaking even anymore. That station cannot continue on this path. That station alone is putting a helluva drag on GE stocks. Stockholders (a lot of you all with 401K) are going to get tired of losing one day and you will see a shake-up.

How long do you think a company can survive if they are in a losing battle nightly? They are nowhere near Fox's ratings during Prime Time. This is what advertisers look at no matter how much you love all of those entertainers, no audience means no money.

Jody - "...a reassessment of how and what is news, and getting the facts first instead of going for the sensational. One can hope the discussion and self-examination continues." Oh how I wish!

I know it is hard for sane people to understand, but the yelling and hyperbole (often outright lies) etc. that is Hate Radio, and also FAUX Noise most of the time (as well as Newsmax, World Net Daily, etc.) is what crazy people want. From Jerry Springer, to reality TV, to other garbage, it is what they want and the more outrageous the better. In the case of politics, these people also want reaffirmation of their small, narrow, ugly views. Society as a whole would have to change before media ratings and profits will follow. I'm not so optimistic.

Well, there's no question that people on the right shouldn't lie, that the left's job!

ITM

As usual you're a day late and a dollar short to the party. If you'd try and keep up you'd understand that the scalpel Ms. Maddow used was perfect because she went on to cover shows on cable during the SAME time as O'Reilly that completely TRUMP him in the ratings. Not the least of them is Sponge Bog Square Pants. It was a beautiful response,...I'd point you to a link; but I know you have no real interest in watching it, so I won't waste my time.

Clara:

That is because your pulling BS out of your flat arse. Maddow has never beaten O'Reilly. Her frikken ratings are right down there with Tom and Jerry. Lock-Up is the highest rating show on MSNBC.

ITM,

Do be a dear and try to read for comprehension,...I never said that she listed HER OWN show,...she listed a handful of other cable shows that all beat Bill O on any given night - Sponge Bob was one of them. In fact, she went on to acknowledge Bill O beating her in the ratings. What she countered with is that he doesn't beat her on FACTS. And she used a significant number of THOSE to prove that point. Really was a thing of beauty,...too bad you hate beauty, too!

Clara,

The point was about ratings and as usual you do the Liberal thing and claim only Liberals have facts. Maddow is a heavily opinionated show just as O'Reilly. Of course I expect you to agree with EVERYTHING Maddow says, after all she is a flaming Liberal and see things through her tunnel vision.

We will see who's show last the longest on T.V.

And you're doing the usual Conservative thing, only allowing into the discussion facts that support your own argument.

John:

1. You don't know if I'm a conservative . Just because I disagree with the Democrat philosophy does not make me a conservative. You are definatley a damn Liberal.

2. This conversation did not involve YOU.

Fox News gets better ratings than other "NEWS" shows because Fox is a Purveyor of FICTIONS.

The stupid and the ignorant are drawn to fairytales and falsehoods. At Fox News, in record numbers.

Let's start a new group. - People for the Ethical Treatment of People.

Wow JoAnna. Thanks for bringing that up.

Unbelieveable. I thought Kerry was a better man than that. Evidently not. I'll have to remember this next time he's up for election (Too bad it's not until 2014!)

JoAnna,

Do you realize that you are ugly enough to chase a starving Chewowa off a meat wagon?

Joanna, it's funny, i did not see anything from you regarding sarah palin and her tax issues. i know, shocking. just shocking. you are way too much of a hypocrit to comment.

while i would like to know more about this yacht issue and in it's current state i believe what he is doing is wrong. again, we all need more information before you jump to every possible conclusion. but then again, why would you need to get all of the facts? you are Joanna

Congratulations to the Kerrys. I have no problem with people enjoying their money. This is America, after all.

Wrong glen? What exactly is Mr. Kerry doing "wrong". He's done nothing illegal. He's purchased a product that employed dozens of workers to construct. He's employing people at the marina where he is moored. Mr. Kerry has done nothing wrong glen. He's observed a situation, adjusted his behavior accordingly, and has made a business decision that benefits himself. You liberals might call that greed, but in fact he and wife have made a sound and fair business decision. What exactly is wrong with that glen?

And that teak interior. Very nice. The Kerry's certainly have good taste for excellent craftsmanship.

Glen, I have no problem with it. Another right wing narrative out there is that Conservatives deserve to milk the tax code for all it's worth but it shows hypocrisy for Liberals to do the same. I don't see why. I do it. Any smart person would. The difference is that Conservatives are anxious to take what they can and continue to claim that they deserve more. Liberals make a rational decision to take what they're allowed by the current system while working toward something more equitable.

JoAnna -

Delaware has no sales tax either, but I bought my last three cars there (because I happen to like the dealership) and had to pay Pennsylvania state sales tax anyway, because Pennsylvania would obviously be losing a lot of money if everyone ran across the state line to shop for big-ticket items. (They lose enough as it is on the little-ticket stuff). I find it hard to believe that Massachusetts would be willing to forego not only John Kerry's $437,000 in taxes but everyone else's as well by not having some similar agreement in place. Can you provide some documentation that the two states don't have some sort of reciprocal tax agreement like we do with Delaware?

Or are you claiming that Kerry is the first and only rich guy in Massachusetts to take advantage of this scenario? Or is just Democrats in general?

@John B:

I have an issue with it because it's the Senator from MA, deliberately evading MA taxes. I think purposefully trying to get out from paying taxes one should is a failure of ethical conduct.

Joanna, i am sorry, i did not see any response to Sarah Palin and her tax issues from you. must have missed that one. that's right, you just pick and choose your talking points.

wrong is a judgement, it does not have to be illegal. so i am not sure what the hell you are talking about there. john ensign cheated on his wife while being a member of the "promise keepers". wrong, not illegal. so in your mind that it ok? you live in a very strange world there chief. very strange.

Feisty Redhead, speaking of ugly, are you really PMSNBC's feisty redhead, Ed Schultz? Or maybe his intern tasked to post his nonsense on FR? Your posts are just too much like his inane opinions on the Mr. Ed Show to be a coincidence.

Jo Anna Having spent some time around the boating community I would remind you while Senator Kerry can avoid the sales tax( many do) he is going to have to pay Property taxes in which ever locale that he ties it up in.Judging by what your telling me up there I'll just bet that there are a bunch of communities trying to get him to move in so he can stimulate the local economy. Thought that that was what we were trying to accomplish here this Summer

Mrs. Kerry bought that boat not John Kerry. Mrs. Kerry is a wonderful woman!

JoAnne in PA

JoAnna -

Delaware has no sales tax either, but I bought my last three cars there (because I happen to like the dealership) and had to pay Pennsylvania state sales tax anyway, because Pennsylvania would obviously be losing a lot of money if everyone ran across the state line to shop for big-ticket items. (They lose enough as it is on the little-ticket stuff). I find it hard to believe that Massachusetts would be willing to forego not only John Kerry's $437,000 in taxes but everyone else's as well by not having some similar agreement in place. Can you provide some documentation that the two states don't have some sort of reciprocal tax agreement like we do with Delaware?

Or are you claiming that Kerry is the first and only rich guy in Massachusetts to take advantage of this scenario? Or is just Democrats in general?

Very reasonable questions.

The point of the post is that individuals will make decisions in their own best interests, as they should. It's the liberals of the country that are constantly ranting about the "community" being the most important element in our lives. We see that isn't the case, at least not for the one of the most affluent liberal politicians in the country. And nor should it be. It's important that people take care of themselves first, mostly so others do not have to. Work at getting your education, a decent job, making reasonable decisions to stay out of trouble, and being self sufficient. If people work at those things, then they can expect to be self sufficient. Some are not so fortunate though, and those people will need compassion from the others. But as long as people are focused on doing what is right for them, there will be many less people the community that will need to be supported by others.

JoAnne, the laws in the surrounding states where I live also make you pay taxes for car purchases at the rate in your home county. You do not get a break on car purchase because you traveled to a lower sales taxed state.

What's the matter Joe in Albany is the truth too much for you???

Forrest Grump

Mrs. Kerry bought that boat not John Kerry. Mrs. Kerry is a wonderful woman!

Who knew ketchup was worth so much?

Horseface Kerry (are he and Michael Richard's, Seinfeld's Cosmo Kramer, twins separated at birth?) dodging taxes reminds me of trial lawyer John Edwards' use of the tax code's subchapter S provision in order to avoid paying SS and Medicare taxes on the millons he collected from his ambulance chasing days. Hypocrits.

Liberals believe in higher taxes for other people, but, not for them.

John Kerry knew.

quagmire, Quahog, RI

Joanna, i am sorry, i did not see any response to Sarah Palin and her tax issues from you. must have missed that one. that's right, you just pick and choose your talking points

glen, you are free to discuss any and all things you consider important, but for some reason you want others to do it for you. You want to talk about Sarah Palin's tax issues, please, and by all means, feel free to do so.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Glen, I have no problem with it. Another right wing narrative out there is that Conservatives deserve to milk the tax code for all it's worth but it shows hypocrisy for Liberals to do the same. I don't see why. I do it. Any smart person would. The difference is that Conservatives are anxious to take what they can and continue to claim that they deserve more. Liberals make a rational decision to take what they're allowed by the current system while working toward something more equitable.

John, you're working way too hard at trying to explain this. People John, individuals, all make decisions in their own best interest. As they should. Doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative, white or black, rich or poor.

Until the taxing system in the nation is both simplified to avoid frustration and confusion AND the loopholes to avoid taxation are removed, you will see this sort of behavior from wealthy people on both sides of the political spectrum. When you have corporations that make hundreds of millions in profits, but pay no taxes on profits due to 'tax incentives' and so forth, and you have multitudes of millionaires and billionaires being taxed at a nominally lower rate because 'capital gains' is what substitutes for their 'income tax,' then the resulting system will always remain broken.

The other day I posted what I considered to be a far more simple and linear system. However until we transition to a simple and linear system, I really don't see how we can excoriate people for taking advantage of the opportunities provided to them. That is sort of like expecting someone to beat themselves with a club when they have the opportunity not to do so.

Feisty,

Boy what a meanie that lady was in scaring that poor little doggie off the meat wagon. He was probably laid off because the company he/she worked for sent his job overseas and he/she was unemployment and then somebody took his/her bones away for no reason. Poor little guy/gal was only trying to get some food for his mate and pups. Mean Lady.

Great read Feisty tahnks for the LMAO moment.

Have a great day.

The good thing about John Kerry's new Yacht, he bought it with you republicans tax cuts for the rich, aren't you proud of yourselves that not only can republicans buy expensive things but Democrats can also.

JoAnna Smith: "The point of the post is that individuals will make decisions in their own best interests, as they should. It's the liberals of the country that are constantly ranting about the "community" being the most important element in our lives."

JoAnna, thanks for the clarification, because even going back and re-reading it three times, I'd have sworn that the point of your post was to make unsubstantiated accusations that Senator Kerry was guilty of some sort of crime.

By the way, I am one of those "liberals in this country" - thanks for acknowledging that we are, in fact, capable of asking very reasonable questions once in a while.

Why are republicans upset when a democrat lowers his tax burden?

Joanna, this has been your worst post to date. and there have been a lot of them. it lacks any type of coherence. i still have not figured what your original point was and i do not think you do either. you are going into a sarah palin talking argument with yourself. by the way, i am not as much a liberal as i am someone who hates republican double talk. you have mastered that today for sure.

JoAnne in PA

JoAnna, thanks for the clarification, because even going back and re-reading it three times, I'd have sworn that the point of your post was to make unsubstantiated accusations that Senator Kerry was guilty of some sort of crime

No, Mr. Kerry is not doing anything wrong. Either legally or morally. I do not agree with his politics, but I do agree with his personal business practices.

By the way, I am one of those "liberals in this country" - thanks for acknowledging that we are, in fact, capable of asking very reasonable questions once in a while.

I hope I wasn't condecending to you. There are many reasonable liberals like yourself, some on this board. You can see there are yet others (as seen in this thread) that are much less reasonable.

.

glen quagmire, Quahog, RI

Joanna, this has been your worst post to date

Thanks glen. Yeah, this one is a toughy. Lots of complicated concepts and ideas flying around and everything. Maybe ask Feisty and US Navy to explain it to you. They seem real smart.

"John, you're working way too hard at trying to explain this. People John, individuals, all make decisions in their own best interest. As they should. Doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative, white or black, rich or poor."

Ah, but it does matter to most of the Conservative media. Most of them claim hipocrisy any time a Liberal lives well. As if having money should somehow be a natural impediment to caring about those less fortunate. They're derided as "Limosine Liberals" and criticized as being fakes because they are concerned with the greater society. That's too bad.

Mo-1852032

The good thing about John Kerry's new Yacht, he bought it with you republicans tax cuts for the rich, aren't you proud of yourselves that not only can republicans buy expensive things but Democrats can also.

You are so right Mo. What was Kerry thinking, buying a yacht like that? That's the governments money that he used to buy that yacht! That money could have went to unemployment benefits extensions, which would have been needed for more people if Kerry didn't buy that yacht, because the yacht manufacturer would have had to lay the builders off. Hmmm.

Joanna, it's complicated because even you do not know what you are talking about. i guess we can put your incoherent ramblings in the same category as "Refutiate". but i know, you do not know shakespeare. being stupid is not a complicated concept for you.

you smart be joanna there

John B, Des Moines, IA

Ah, but it does matter to most of the Conservative media. Most of them claim hipocrisy any time a Liberal lives well. As if having money should somehow be a natural impediment to caring about those less fortunate. They're derided as "Limosine Liberals" and criticized as being fakes because they are concerned with the greater society. That's too bad.

Well, there is that. But what you are describing is our current "Gotcha Media" and it works both sides. I hope you are not watching any of that stuff John. It will rot your brain.

quagmire, Quahog, RI

Joanna, it's complicated because even you do not know what you are talking about.

Gee glen, I'm real sorry you're not getting it. Others seem to have no problem getting the point. Maybe you should hang with Feisty and US Navy. They seem more your speed. They got kind of the lowest common denominator thing going for them. I'm sure you'll be happy there.

Gee joanna, i don't think anyone on here really got it as much as they have given up. the fact that you keep going on this thread is telling me you do not even get it, but you are going to keep at it. it's called a circular reference.

also, being snippy and trying to be funny at the same time is not really your strong suit. stick to your incoherence and vague talking points. come to think of it, you and being funny is like a republican president and deficit reduction. they just don't go together.

were was that yacht manufactured? and he saved jobs here how with that purchase...

Don't have an answer to that snardsus, but what's your point? He saved at least as many jobs as did Rush Limbaugh with his $450,000 (German built) Maybach.

I see that others have mentioned Kerry married into the Heinz family, but in fairness to Kerry, he worked very hard to put himself through college, then running a bakery business, etc. prior to that.

JoAnna, a question for you... In regard to the Bush tax cuts for people earning over $200,000 and the Estate Tax that applies only to the top 2-1% of wealth, we hear screams from conservatives about how these folks worked hard for their money so shouldn't be targeted in this way. Of course most did not get where they are by being ethical or at least not benevolent, nor have most paid their fair share of taxes because of loopholes... and then there are the CEOs of bailed-out banks who are being paid billions... these things are overlooked by the right-wing, or just swept under the rug?

The reason Warren Buffett, Bill and Melinda Gates and others are not in agreement with breaks for the wealthy is because they know fully well that trickle-down is voodoo economics, and they know it is difficult to preserve democracy in a plutocracy. The disparity between rich and poor is growing exponentially, the middle class is shrinking, and the American Dream has all but disappeared for most.

Personally, when I read your post I thought it was good someone was spending in this economy-ha!

I forgot to add that Kerry's father was in the foreign service (making average money), but because Kerry grew up in Germany and France, he is fluent in French and somewhat in German. He also has Jewish ancestors, which may have been useful in obtaining peace in the Middle East. In any event, these things would have made for a good President, and certainly more than I can say for Dubya (or heaven forbid Sarah Palin!).

Seems most of the focus is on the taxes, not the "New Zealand built". It is refreshing, however, to see John B, Des Moines point out that Kerry is as big an a**h*le as Rush Limbaugh. Based on the typical anti-Limbaugh fare seen here on a daily basis, that was quite a slam on the good Senator from Massachusetts.

But, if Rush paid sales tax, he at least paid part of the salary of a public employee.

Everyone, just skip NO JO NO BO No Truth. it's pretty much just lies anyway

President George W. Bush. For the first four years, with few exceptions, the media did no investigations into the Iraq war lead up, Cheney's secret big oil/big coal energy policy meetings, torture, Gitmo, etc.

As for the rest of your comment, you know nothing of what you speak except a jaded and biased frustration.

I agree Glen, no joe all blows rants are just the same old recycled crap every day. If he couldn't cut and paste from Fox he'd have nothing to say.

George W. Bush/ Dick Cheney

No media investigation of 9/11

Clearly an inside job.

Great post NJNBNJ. Outstanding!

beleive it or not Mo, no jo no bo no truth is actually a girl. she probably has heard that her whole life, but usually it's when it's a face to face meeting.

Holy cow, after the 9-11 hysteria that Bush/Cheney and the right-wing neocons benefited from, it is nice to see a little more balance and facts from the media. In the run-up to the Iraq invasion I was appalled that none of the Middle East experts were being interviewed, for example. If there had been more intelligent debate, facts, and thought going on, we might have saved thousands of lives, 1 trillion in treasure, and our standing in the world.

Well said, Jody.

Pretty work from an Iowa ace.

Well said Jody . . . it reminds me of a quote:

Thanks. Excellent quote, Nashville.

Great post, Jody. I agree, FOX does a disservice to conservatives. FOX (and Mr. Limbaugh) have made it impossible for statesmen to rise from the Republican Party. My husband has taught history in high school and college for 30 years, and he continually asks, "Where is the loyal opposition?" Politicians in the minority party used to be more willing to work with those in power to accomplish things that would benefit ALL the people. That is the true meaning of "Country First," and we have lost that in the current political climate. The Republican Party will have no real leadership until someone steps forward who is willing to work on behalf of ALL Americans.

Gail:

Loyal Opposition = Staying Loyal to your OPPOSITION.

Simple.....there is nothing confusing about the meaning.

Idiot In the Middle

LOYAL OPPOSITION:

Loyal to your country, standing in opposition to your political rivals because you believe their policies are bad for your country.

DISLOYAL OPPOSITION:

Contrast that with trying to undermine policies which are good for your own country, through lies and mischaracterization of them, because you work for a segment of the population that would benefit from the collapse of your own country.

ITM, TX: I interpret "loyal opposition" to mean those of the minority party who provide constructive criticism to the majority party to improve legislation, therefore allowing it to move forward in a way that will most benefit all Americans. Of course, the majority party has to be willing to listen and to be as inclusive as possible.

John McCain used to operate this way. He approached each issue not in a partisan manner, but to see where he could work with Democrats. This earned him the "Maverick" moniker. He used to walk the "Country First" talk. Likewise, Democrats supported President Bush and voted to go to war in 2002. Back in 1981, many Democrats voted for President Reagan's tax cuts.

These are examples of "loyal opposition." They are willing to give things at least a chance to work.

So true Jody. A former employer of mine only watches FOX News (maybe 15 minutes a day) like so many conservatives, instead of obtaining information from a wide range of sources, preferably more credible ones. Of course he thinks that makes him an expert in politics, so one day I said I'd watch Fox for a week if he'd watch a more liberal channel for a week. He said he couldn't stand CNN, and I responded by saying that if I had to watch something as far-right as FOX, he'd need to watch MSNBC, not CNN. He was defiant that I would say FOX was so far to the right as MSNBC is to the left. Well, you get my drift.

To quote Tom Tancredo: ". . I believe this with all my heart, that the greatest threat to the United States today, the greatest threat to our liberty, the greatest threat to the Constitution, the greatest threat to our way of life, everything we believe in, the greatest threat to the country put together by the Founding Fathers" is the right-wing spin machine (oh, and extremists like Tancredo).

Nashville Fan,

I agree. This gets a vote thank you. The one thing that made me mad about the UI Bill was that the Republicans successfully trashed the 24 Billion in aid to the states. I wonder how this selfish move is going to help jobs in those states???? When the jobs go away because the states did not get those resources watch the Republicans blame this on President Obama.

Nashville_fan: I don't know how they say what they say. I really don't. Do these journalists have bosses they answer to? Doesn't seem so. They can say whatever they want. And get big paychecks for it.

Great post.

Pat,

Right on. They can say whatever they want, truth or fiction (lies), as long as they pull in the ratings. Look at Glenn and Vigara Man. Two of the most corrupt people on the planet that have a huge following (those poor soles know not what they do).

What we can do though is to expose these individuals for what they are and hope intelligent people will do their own homework and see the truth.

Some more Pretty work from another ace. Good thoughts Nash

Thanks for your input and the kind words!

Excellent post.

I agree 100% and I truely believe that the public's perception of Pres Obama's handling of everything, not just the BP disaster, has been driven by the shallowness of the media. This administration has turned a near depression into a recession, he passed health care reform which had been tried for decades, he succeeded in passing Veteran's benefit reforms, a stimulus, financial regulatory reform but to listen to the media--nothing has been accomplished.

We only have to look at how the media drove the Somalia pirates' capture of the American ship and its captain to recall the "lack of action", why isn't the President taking action, doesn't he realize he must do something. How quickly it died when a few days later, Pres Obama proved that from the first, he was taking action and was engaged.

Alter's book talks mentions VP Biden's assessment not long after they took office. "We got the ticket in the right order." "Pres Obama turned the world's view of America around overnight, it would have taken me two years" "It would have taken Hillary two years". Alter also notes that Pres Obama, in the first year, has kept 400 of the 500 campaign promises he made.

I am very proud of President Obama and his team. They may not be perfect, they may be sometimes slow to respond to attacks, they may be trying to court republicans (which is absolutely necessary in this 60 cloture vote Senate) but that is because--they are working hard to get this country moving again--dealing with the shallow chatter is like swatting flies to them. But they are learning and they are fighting back. Every presidential admininstration has a learning curve in the nuances of presidential politics but not since Roosevelt has that new presidential team had so many left over crises to resolve while learning those nuances.

Excellent comment Jody . . . I haven't read Jonathan Alter's book yet . . . sounds like it is a very interesting read.

Dear fellow progressives (including the Rachel Maddow) -- Please, let's keep our eye on the ball. Obama was derailed from the start by inheriting Republican messes like the wars, economy, etc. Also, there are matters of higher priority then don't ask don't tell, and even cap and trade. A very good start has been made, despite Republican obstructionism, such as health reform and finance reform, and no doubt fine tuning will be needed on these matters as well. So how about folks focus on the most urgent things like getting the vote out for Dems in November. Unlike Republicans, Dems risked their jobs to accomplish what has been accomplished so far.

yes, lets blame everything on one side and blindly follow another.....it gets us nowhere. How 'bout you actually post something constructive? Also, im curious as to what you think should be done about the middle east? should we sit here and watch them as they gather their strength for another mass murdering of innocent people, or should we go over there and attempt to stop the issue at its source. i suppose it doesn't really matter either way.....we help people complain about us sticking our nose where it doesn't belong..we ignore the issue people whine about us not helping, either way we lose.

Eric, I usually agree whole heartedly with your posts, but I think you are being too hard on Obama and the Dems. Sometimes you do have to compromise. I understand that most compromises were for nothing as the obstructionist party of no still voted against everything even with the compromises. BUt, something is better than nothing. A lot of good legislation has passed. It can be strengthened later. I would not do anything (vote green party) that woud give the Republicans an election that otherwise would have gone to a democrat.

Eric,

You speak a lot of truth in this post. My number one complaint with my democrat elected officials is that they do not know how to play the game as well as the Republicans do. They appear at times to run from a fight even though they have the facts and are on the correct side for America. They blow opportunity to gain support time and time again by not calling these wingnuts out and exposing the lies. I hope they do a better job in the next 100 days. Thanks for the insightful post.

Eric, I am thinking that the President is trusting that Americans are smarter than the antagonists believe they are. By constantly taking time away from the country's important business to refute 'petty' - and manufactured - issues is not productive. I go with the President on this one - let the 'chattering class' chatter away. The legislative record that is being built will be the proof that actions speak a lot louder than words.

Now, if the electorate decide to follow the 'chattering class', then they deserve the outcome that they get. The trick of this whole non-troversy is to keep our eyes on the prize and enact the agenda that was laid out for the American people in the campaign - that a majority of Americsn voted for and want enacted.

Americans, as an electorate, will have to make a choice. Go forward - and make things better for the country - or go backward, and bicker and fight all the time, stagnating growth that is sorely needed.

America will need to choose.

Soon.

ACORN has been a topic of GOP abuse for a long time; most of the claims were false especially the latest edited pimp nonsense, but they did have many problems. There will be another organization to take its place and likely a better one.

Van Jones did have a problem that would have been unacceptable in the WH--he signed a petition supporting the view that 9/11 was an inside job. There are plenty of conspiracy folks who buy that just like the birthers but having someone who believed it working inside the WH would have been a disaster.

FROM PIETRO:

"The legislative record that is being built will be the proof that actions speak a lot louder than words."

Nice post and good words to remember. Many will try to bamboozle us with shiny objects. We must keep our eyes on the prize. In this, all Americans benefit.

There are days when I simply can't stand all the rubbish that pops up when I open (even liberal) articles. This is when I go to whitehouse.gov ONLY. It reminds me of all the positive things this administration has accomplished and continues to work on.

Eric, another great post from the California Ace. Couldn't agree with you more. I'm onboard, 110%! Great job!

Eric: When you get a stroke from JoAnna, You may have gone too far. Think about it.

Ron Indiana

Eric: When you get a stroke from JoAnna, You may have gone too far. Think about it.

Nice job Ron. You really got to the essence of the issue. I voted! Great insight!

Ron - If you read some of JoAnna's other postings above, you'll see she's just exhibiting a rare sense of humor today and having some fun at our expense. Evidently she needs that same "sarcasm font" I'm always asking for! :)

Eric - Per another earlier discussion about the definitions of conservative versus liberal, I have to wonder why conservatives aren't embarrassed. Last I checked, definitions for liberal such a being open-minded, seeking progress, etc. were good qualities. You bring up another point about geographical division. It is not far off from the Civil War days. Once again, you'd think conservatives would be embarrassed. Well, if Gov. Rick Perry of Texas wants to secede from the Union, what can I say -- don't let the door hit ya in the arse on your way out?

Oh, and did you see the token minorities Michele Bachmann managed to parade at her announcement about forming a Tea Party caucus? Once again, when we get unedited video, we'll discover there aren't any other brown people in the crowd. And why not, since FOX News uses old footage when they want to show larger crowds. Oh heck, this all goes back to Bush using Jeff Gannon to throw softball questions during press conferences, or screening and scripting events as "real," and have we forgotten the Town Squall meetings in which drowning out questions was the tactic instead of making a real case for themselves?

Is this a reflection of cheating instead of merit (well they rationalize it with other terms), and why merit isn't necessary to be POTUS for these folks? I assure you these same right-wing employers want a crapload of education, experience, specialization, achievements from the unemployed who are seeking jobs.

dangerfield,

Speaking for myself, I am not protesting the war in Afghanistan because I am not opposed to the war in Afghanistan. I feel the war has been mismanaged. I feel many of the tactics being used may not be perfect - but what war is?

I feel that we have vital national interests in the region, and there are too many nuclear nations there to simply let rogue elements have their way.

I feel that much of what is going on in Afghanistan that is good is never reported, and I think the drone attacks have been more effective than many of the other tactics that have been tried.

I think there is no way to have war and no civilian casualties, and that is difficult for me to stomach. But the truth is, in the real world, we have to make real tough choices, and I support the President's choice to not let Afghanistan become a safe haven for the criminally insane again.

The President has a strategy and a plan to end the war. Just because he has not gone on the news and broadcast every detail does not mean it is not going to happen.

By this time next year, many of our troops will be heading home, just like they are now from Iraq.

President Obama said it best when he said he wasn't against all wars, just stupid wars.

I could not agree more.

Ms Nash-

I am actually shocked, but not entirely surprised by your response, and lack of concern. I have yet to detect an inch of daylight between your views and the Obama administration.

"By this time next year, many of our troops will be heading home, just like they are now from Iraq." Really? How MANY?

How many troops and private contractors are still in and will REMAIN in Iraq? do you know or care?

the line;

"I feel that much of what is going on in Afghanistan that is good is never reported," could have come from one of the neo-cons about Iraq when they unquestioningly followed Bush!

Maybe if the dead and mutilated were shown on MSNBC nightly, or if we didn't have a volunteer army, and the actual ramifications of the war touched you personally it would alter your blissful perspective, or at least pique your curiosity beyond blindly trusting the government.

Would President McCain have had your unquestioning support? I doubt it...and I am sure it would be a more frequent topic on FirstRead.

How Many Private Contractors Are There In Afghanistan? Military Gives Us A Number
Private contractors employed by the Defense Department in Afghanistan will continue to outnumber the size of the American troop presence, even after President Obama sends 30,000 more soldiers to fight in the war, according to the military's most recent contractor count.

The latest figure on DOD contractors in the country is a whopping 104,100, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command tells TPM. That number, which is expected to grow, is already greater than the 98,000 U.S. troops that will be in the country after the new deployments.

We told you yesterday about the little-noticed but giant shadow army of contractors that allows the United States to prosecute the war by providing food, transport, construction, security, and other services. Many believe the size of the contracting force presents security and transparency concerns.

And the lack of discussion of the topic -- Obama, for example, didn't mention contractors in his address last night -- warps perceptions of the size of the American commitment in Afghanistan.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/so_how_many_private_contractors_are_there_in_afgha.php

dangerfield:

I really don't see how you infered a lack of concern from my response. I am very concerned, and yet I still support the objective.

It is possible to do both.

And yes, I agree, that we should have less sanitized coverage of war in our country. People should be fully aware of the horrific price that we and the other allied nations are paying in this effort.

Perhaps then folks would not be so cavalier when they declare that we should attack Iran, or North Korea, or whoever the "bad country" is this week.

I am not saying that the war in Afghanistan is a wonderful thing. I am saying it is a necessary thing, and I deeply regret it.

Deeply.

Question for you: What do you think the President should do to manage the Af/Pak region, or do you think we should do anything at all?

P.S. I do not think that our national interests change based on who is President, so if John McCain were President, I would feel the same way.

I do not support and open ended, missionless stay in Afghanistan, and under President Bush, that is how the effort began to feel. I think President Obama has reviewed his options and charted a different course. Doesn't mean it will meet all of its objectives, but I do think that it is in our national interests to try.

And I am effected personally anytime any American soldier is in harms way. . . not to mention the inlaws and personal acquaintances that I know that have loved ones serving, including both of my daughter's (female) kindergarten teacher. . . it is not just talking points for me . . . it is real and I would not support the slaughter of any human being - American or Afghani without a strong belief that there were no other viable alternatives.

"I think President Obama has reviewed his options and charted a different course."

President Obama is continuing the strategy and policies of his predecessor;

Obama Afghanistan Plan Breaks Old Ground

Did George Bush leave one of his old speeches in the Resolute Desk? As President Obama unveiled his Afghanistan-Pakistan policy Friday, it was hard to miss the echoes of his predecessor's "surge" strategy in Iraq. Indeed, says James Dobbins, the State Department veteran who served as President Bush's first envoy to Afghanistan, Obama's plan is "largely an extension of where the Bush Administration, in its last years, was heading,with some refinements and additions."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1888257,00.html#ixzz0uWCv6aJr

Afghanistan: The Obama-Bush Exit Strategy

U.S. troops will train and fight alongside local forces.

Meanwhile, other U.S. forces will continue to target al-Qaida.


And when the violence has begun to subside, U.S. troops can begin to come home -- if conditions permit.

President Obama's new strategy for Afghanistan sounds a lot like President Bush's new strategy for Iraq.

In fact, it is Bush's Iraq exit strategy -- which then-Sen. Barack Obama bitterly opposed.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/03/afghanistan-the-obama-bush-exit-strategy/

Why Obama Has Defaulted to Bush Foreign Policy Positions

After a year with President Barack Obama at the helm of U.S. foreign policy, an observer could be forgiven for concluding that the presidency is more like taking over the controls of a train than getting behind the wheel of a car. That's because you can't steer a train; you can only determine its speed. So far, the menu of foreign policy challenges, and the Administration's response to each, is remarkably similar at the close of 2009 to what it was at the close of 2008.

Obama's promises of outreach to adversaries and consultation and coordination with allies certainly cleared away some of the negative atmospherics left by the Bush Administration. However, his substantial policy positions have proven to be remarkably similar to those of the second-term, chastened-by-reality George W. Bush. Indeed, anti-war Democrats groaned when the President, in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech, referred to "evil in the world" and hailed America's willingness to use force abroad over the past six decades as an essential component of global security. The neoconservatives cheered.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latest-news/why-obama-has-defaulted-bush-foreign-policy-positions

What is the mission? When will it be complete? How will we know that it is complete? How can we accomplish anything lasting in a year? How many dead this week? How many wounded? How many more will die or be scarred forever in the prosecution of a war that has no real end in sight, but a nebulous timetable that is dependent upon "what's happening on the ground"?

My feelings on Afghanistan remain mixed. The problem isn't so much Afghanistan as it is Pakistan, a nuclear armed country. The war was botched and neglected by the Bush administration to head for Iraq instead. I do believe Pres Obama did the right thing by giving it one more organized, focused and responsible effort. I do not believe that we should remain forever but it is crucial that we make every effort to stabilize what we broke. At some point in the near future, we will be leaving.

President Obama is doing exactly what he promised to do during the campaign.

If you cannot tell the difference between President Bush's approach and President Obama's, then I suppose you are not looking very hard.

If I am not mistaken, we are on our third General in charge and there has been a marked increase in the number of troops.

President Obama is actively working to reach a goal in a defined time, and that is a big difference.

President Obama is the Commander in Chief and he is doing what I elected him to do - make the tough choices and doing what he feels in the best interest of our country.

There is no "neat" way to prosecute a war. But after a 9 year investment of time, lives, and resources, I think that there is nothing wrong with giving the War in Afghanistan the time and attention it always merited.

I am not trying to convince you to agree with me, just answering the question you originally posed - why I was not protesting the War in Afghanistan.

"I think that there is nothing wrong with giving the War in Afghanistan the time and attention it always merited."

A year? Is that the "time and attention" it always merited? Find ANYONE who thinks we can accomplish anything in that time frame, and I will understand why you have no desire to stand up against this waste of blood and treasure. I know that you are a HUGE fan of President Obama, but how you can believe that there is a substantial difference between the Bush and Obama policies (We are even back to Gen. Patreaus!) in light of the information provided, is a mystery.

We have in the neighborhood of 250,000 American troops and private mercs there right now. We will have as many or more this time next year.

As to the many good things that go unreported; The AP is doing a series on our "progress" thusfar and prospects for the future, which I hope you find the time to read...

After years of rebuilding, most Afghans lack power
By BRETT J. BLACKLEDGE, RICHARD LARDNER AND DEB RIECHMANN (AP) – 4 days ago

KABUL, Afghanistan — The goal is to transform Afghanistan into a modern nation, fueled by a U.S.-led effort pouring $60 billion into bringing electricity, clean water, jobs, roads and education to this crippled country. But the results so far — or lack of them — threaten to do more harm than good.

The reconstruction efforts have stalled and stumbled at many turns since the U.S. military arrived in 2001, undermining President Barack Obama's vow to deliver a safer, stable Afghanistan capable of stamping out the insurgency and keeping al-Qaida from re-establishing its bases here.

Poppy fields thrive, with each harvest of illegal opium fattening the bankrolls of terrorists and drug barons. Passable roads remain scarce and unprotected, isolating millions of Afghans who remain cut off from jobs and education. Electricity flows to only a fraction of the country's 29 million people.

___

EDITOR'S NOTE — The United States has made an enormous and costly commitment to building a new Afghanistan, but an Associated Press investigation finds that the results have been paltry. First in an occasional series, "Fixing Afghanistan."

snip

Rebuilding Afghanistan is an international effort, but the U.S. alone has committed $51 billion to the project since 2001, and plans to raise the stakes to $71 billion over the next year — more than it has spent on reconstruction in Iraq since 2003.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDJgyE3Isc_5Ov_Z984xHAmLAG8QD9H1SSEO1

We have presided over the largest poppy harvest since the Taliban first came to power, much of it being consumed by our own soldiers and citizens in the form of opium and heroin another unseen cost of the war.

I sincerely hope that a year from now i can say that you were right to put your faith in the administration, but I think it is just as likely that you may be at the point I am at today...wondering where the protests are...

Rachel Maddow did an excellent report on Afghanistan precisely because other issues have preempted review of the war. While the war in Afghanistan is much more about protecting the U.S. than the invasion of Iraq, and it is really connected to WMD (nukes) in Pakistan, a debate about goals and strategy is greatly needed. I personally don't feel a lot optimism about nation building in countries like Afghanistan. I would prefer focus on other ways of dealing with terrorism that could be more effective as well as less cost in lives and treasure. But taking to the streets over this in comparison to other wars or other issues... ?

Eric - I saw some articles on this yeaterday. I was out in Nevada earlier this month, and Sharron is definitely an item there.

My biggest question is this - why on earth is anyone supporting this candidate? I think that her handlers are seeing her support tank in Nevada, and it looks like they are trying to 'run out the clock'. In the meantime, Sen. Reid - of whom I really did NOT support - is looking better and better and will most likely retain his seat in the Senate.

Did the Republicans in Nevada feel that Sharron was their BEST candidate? A lot of what she is doing is just plain ODD, for the lack of a better word. You cannot - CANNOT - run for office, NOT talk about what your vision and plans are and expect to win!!

Is there ANY Republican or Conservative that would disagree?

What concerns me is Sharron Angle is using the same avoidance tactics that Sarah Palin used, and yet look at the bucks and publicity Palin is raking in. To quote a blog on this, perhaps ignorance is bliss?

Let's see: Bachman, Jeff Sessions, Boehner.

Do I get a prize?

don't forget that virginia foxx cook - north carolina, she is nuttier than a centuries old fruit cake.

I don't know about a prize. But you made three good picks.

You all get prizes. Don't forget Louie Goehmert (sp)! And Iowa's very own--Steve King. Scarey thought is we could probably name 30.

Exactly. The right wing comes up with three Black Panthers who are disavowed as too crazy to really be in the group, while we could spend all day maiking a list of wing nuts in the Republican Party and Teabagger movement. That IS a scary realization.

Neither Rachel Maddow nor Lawrence O'Donell shied away from this story, either. Has Fox treated stories about the many Republicans falling from grace in recent years with the same objectivity? I don't watch Fox anymore, but I kind of doubt it. It would take up too much of the precious air time they need to show doctored videos of Democrats and of Glenn Beck pretending to cry.

I'm a democrat and will not defend Charlie Rangel. He did a lot for his district but he has failed them by his unethical and probably illegal actions. He should resign.

That's why they are: The RE-peat-the-lie-to-the-PUBLIC-ans

Houston, I believe that ideas stand on their merits. If you have to hide your agenda, pretend it's something else, or attack the opponent instead of presenting your own ideas then they have no merit.

Houston, I agree. I used to watch Anderson Cooper occasionally sometime ago. Not now., the last time I switched over, he was as ridiculous as Beck.

John B. Good point.

The whole fiasco with Dan Rather sums it up. Dan, who had a track record of real investigative reporting was held to real journalistic standards so lost his job when he failed to check his source (which was never proven to be false). We have never seen the same standard at FOX News and never will. In part because FOX News consists mostly of entertainers/commentators, like Glen Beck who admits he doesn't check facts. The problem is FOX has been allowed to keep the tag line of "fair and balanced" though we know they took talking points from the Bush White House (i.e., state news), or for that matter they've kept "news" in their name.

The bigger problem is people are too stupid to realize the difference between journalism and opinion editorials--heck, conservatives think Emails are reliable sources!

I'm sure you all remember for all the elections after 9/11 the rethugs were always running on the mantra "It won't happen on our watch" - all the fear mongering that dems were soft and only he rethugs were strong....and even Rudy "9/11" Giuliani forgot that 9/11 even happened.........

On another note...was there ever a tax break for the rich the rethugs didn't like?

Curious how they can't remember how long it has been since 9/11. They keep saying, "It's been NINE years, almost TEN!!!" Never Forget, indeed!?!?

This can't be an accident. They, like Joe Scarbourough, are trying to get you to misplace 9/11 mentally. They want you to think it has been ten years so that you will believe that it happened during the Clinton Administration. That is the MEME they are trying to turn into the national "narrative".

Watch them fumble with how long it has been on the actual anniversary of 9/11/2001.

Morning Bev!

Thanks for the info I wasn't aware of the shenanigans going on here in IL with the POS Breitbart!

What is UP with all the wimpy white Republicans names Tucker?

What do you think about Blago all of a sudden getting a serious case of cat's got his tongue? Word is that he couldn't pass the 'dress rehearsal' with his OWN defense! lol

I had not heard that and living across the river from IL, the local news reports on IL--probably just not that kind of stuff; we do see many of the ads though. Sure hope Illinois voters don't buy the Breitbart garbage.

Thanks June!

I guess the teachable moment I'm hoping to come out of this mess - is that people do STOP placing their full trust in the MSM!

June, FL: Terrific thoughts. It's great to see all the pushback. We have had enough.

Great thoughts, June. The silver lining in the Sherrod mess has been the MSM exposure of Breitbart and FOX. CNN did a great job and should be commended. I do watch CNN sometimes for news and sometimes their American Morning. Fareed Zacharia has a Sunday show which is real discussion with experts and not the usual back and forth we too often see.

You just conjured up an image I just have to share:

You know how in that great Jimmy Stewart classic, "It's a Wonderful Life", every time a bell rings and angel gets his wings?

I think with the Repubs, every time they repeat a lie with willful ignorance, a devil gets a horn! Yeah, that's the ticket! They must be SO proud!

Oh, so very very true.

Sam, you're as hypocritical as every other liberal who has posted here. I sense fear in liberals when they start showing their hypocrisy - it means their arguments have no merit. I guess it must be the fear that minorities seem to have in this nation - perpetuated by liberalism. It must be a tough position to negotiate each day in life.

Handgunner - As is the conservative way, you make accusations but neglect to provide a case in point, substance, evidence (data, facts, references). That way it is easy to negotiate each day in life?

The same is true of Iraq, and has been throughout. One of the things that troubles me about the current make up of our military is that we've developed a culture of career military supplemented by contractors, some of which actually come closer to being mercenaries. It troubles me because in the past we've maintained a very small military, then ramped up in time of need. The new situation (starting during the Vietnam era, actually) puts us in a position where the vast majority of Americans are very isolated from the realities of a nation at war. Andrew Bacevich has the best opinions on this, and most things military. I very much miss his discussions with Bill Moyers on PBS.

A lot of this is Dick Cneney"s doing from when he was Secretary of Defense. He knew wars- without-end were on the horizon, he's read Orwell's 1984.

Instead of 'Goldstein', we had Silverstein and Osama-Bush-Ladin